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:::He ''was'' Prince of Naples, and ''by courtesy'', members of no longer ruling royal families are treated as continuing to have the titles they used to have when the monarchy was going. The head of the family and his heir may also take on a separate title of pretense, which will usually be a subordinate title formerly held by the head of the house (e.g. Duke of Braganza, or Margrave of Meissen or Count of Barcelona). Other, junior members born after the end of the royalty are generally treated, by courtesy, as having whatever title they would have had if the monarchy continued (in this case of the house of Savoy, that is "Prince/ss N of Savoy"). Other members who held substantive noble titles generally continue to use them (e.g., the Duke of Aosta, until he started calling himself the "Duke of Savoy," a title which falls alongside "Margrave of Meissen," and the like). This is not usually recognized formally by the Republican governments involved (although occasionally it is - Portugal and France explicitly recognize their pretenders, and, in France at least, the titles they grant; in Germany, the titles of the former royals are officially treated as part of their name, but more or less formally recognized - I believe the eldest son of the late Prince of Leiningen was officially barred from taking the name "Fürst zu Leiningen" after his father died because his father had disinherited him), but these titles would be used in most other contexts. It is not our place to enforce republican formalities in preference to the way the person is actually addressed by the people he generally interacts with. [[User:John Kenney|john k]] 19:08, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
:::He ''was'' Prince of Naples, and ''by courtesy'', members of no longer ruling royal families are treated as continuing to have the titles they used to have when the monarchy was going. The head of the family and his heir may also take on a separate title of pretense, which will usually be a subordinate title formerly held by the head of the house (e.g. Duke of Braganza, or Margrave of Meissen or Count of Barcelona). Other, junior members born after the end of the royalty are generally treated, by courtesy, as having whatever title they would have had if the monarchy continued (in this case of the house of Savoy, that is "Prince/ss N of Savoy"). Other members who held substantive noble titles generally continue to use them (e.g., the Duke of Aosta, until he started calling himself the "Duke of Savoy," a title which falls alongside "Margrave of Meissen," and the like). This is not usually recognized formally by the Republican governments involved (although occasionally it is - Portugal and France explicitly recognize their pretenders, and, in France at least, the titles they grant; in Germany, the titles of the former royals are officially treated as part of their name, but more or less formally recognized - I believe the eldest son of the late Prince of Leiningen was officially barred from taking the name "Fürst zu Leiningen" after his father died because his father had disinherited him), but these titles would be used in most other contexts. It is not our place to enforce republican formalities in preference to the way the person is actually addressed by the people he generally interacts with. [[User:John Kenney|john k]] 19:08, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

==New RM at [[Talk:Jogaila]]==
Especially as some editors are now saying that the previous move (from Wladyslaw II of Poland to Jogaila) sets a bad precedence and breakts this naming convention, I expect this voting and discussion may be of interest to readers of this page.--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|&nbsp;Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&nbsp;]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<font style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;">&nbsp;talk&nbsp;</font>]]</span></sub> 19:29, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Revision as of 19:29, 25 October 2006

Gaelic Irish rulers

I'm guessing that the article doesn't mention Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Ireland-related articles) by accident. As List of High Kings of Ireland and all other Irish kings articles show, absolutely no Irish monarchs are named in accordance with the guidelines here. Moving Toirdhealbhach Ua Briain to Turlough I of Ireland, or Domhnall MacLochlainn to Donald IV of Ireland, while apparently in line with these guidelines, might well be controversial. I presume that there's no objection to mentioning that here. If I'm wrong, speak up. Angus McLellan (Talk) 22:21, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, that'd be the natural consequence of following wiki guidelines. As usual, the busy-bodies haven't given that the slightest thought. Isn't it strange also that Irish Gaelic rulers have to have native names, but Scottish Gaelic rulers have to have English names? Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 22:33, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It would depend upon actual usage in English, and I'm not sure what it is for Toirdhealbhach Ua Briain. (I strongly suspect the same analysis would apply; but let me use an example I know.) Calling Niall of the Nine Hostages Neil I would be surprising to unrecognizable, so this guideline would indicate leaving him where he is under Exception 4, not moving him to Neil I of Ireland. I observe that neither that or Neil I exist even as redirects. Septentrionalis 17:05, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hey, don't stop at Neil, go straight for Nigel like they do with some Scottish Nialls. Nigel of Ireland would be worth a laugh. Toirdhealbhach Ua Briain 537 is referred to in English as Turlough O'Brien 6,130 or even sometimes Turloch O'Brien 554. But as I think little of the "guideline" these days (surely anyone knowledgable to type it in directly is going to be more familiar with the proper name?), I'm not going to be suggesting a move. Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 17:27, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I would type Turlough O'Brien; I can spell that :-} Septentrionalis 02:40, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've added a link to the Ireland article; in the process, I note that they do things much the same way; the first two points under Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(Ireland-related_articles)#Correct_Irish_orthography_in_naming_people are:

  1. If someone used the Irish version of his or her name, and this enjoyed and enjoys widespread usage among Irish and English speakers, this should be reflected in Wikipedia. Thus, we refer to Máirtín Ó Cadhain, not "Martin Kyne"; Tomás Ó Fiaich, not "Thomas Fee", etc.
  2. In cases where someone used the Irish version of his or her name but this does not enjoy widespread usage, then use the English version when naming the article but refer to the Irish version of the name in the first line. For example, Geoffrey Keating was Irish-speaking and probably never used that name himself. He is listed under Geoffrey Keating but the first sentence reads "Seathrún Céitinn, known in English as Geoffrey Keating, was ...".

This is much the same principle: is Kenneth MacAlpin, Cináed mac Ailpín, or Coinneach Mac Ailpín (which the Gaelic WP uses) in widespread use? That's an empirical question; let's see the evidence. Septentrionalis 17:24, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So, is wiki's function to consolidate the position of inaccurate names? And it is wondered why so many don't like this "guideline". Anyways, the modern Gaelic btw should be "Cionaodh mac Ailpein" or "Cionaodh mac Ailphein", as Coinneach properly corresponds to Old Gaelic Cainnech, rather than Cináed. Alpín is a Scoto-Picticization of the Old English name Ælfwine, and is almost non-existent in modern languages. Also, unlike either Martin Kyne or Geoffrey Keating, there's no evidence nor any reason to believe that Cináed even knew English, never mind modern English, and even in that case the name would be Cyneath (as Dumville has shown, this is like an anglicization of a Pictish/Scottish name, and not a separate English name meaning "royal oath") and not Kenneth, which didn't exist for centuries to come. Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 17:42, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No, the function of this wikipedia is to answer questions posed by anglophones. It is not to attempt to change English usage; there are other ways to do that. Septentrionalis 02:40, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
WP:IMOS gave us Diarmaid mac Cearbhaill and Flaithbheartach. It's quite inappropriate in many cases. Anyway, adding as a see also isn't addressing the issue, and I've got plenty more worms in the can. Angus McLellan (Talk) 18:22, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]


This argument is more about the politics of the users than common usage.

French speakers, German speakers, Italian speakers etc… have no problem in adapting the names of both places and people to their own language.

Thus, Henry VIII becomes Henri VIII, Heinrich VIII and Enrico VIII d'Inghilterra respectively.

This is English Language Wikipedia.

For the overwhelming majority of English Speakers*…The Gaelic Languages are unknown and Very Difficult to read and pronounce.

Using unfamiliar and complex Gaelic names, particularly in the text’s body makes that text very difficult to follow and disrupts the readers flow. Continually, you have to jump back and forth to check who is who…the article on Dermot MacMurrough is virtually un-readable because of this.

This will put people off from reading Irish & Scottish history, if you continue doing this.

The purpose of an encyclopedia is to inform, entertain and educate. By making it difficult to read you’re diminishing it.

Surely, best thing to do, is to use the name most familiar by common usage (Typically the Anglicized version) both text body & title with Gaelic version bracketed, when that character is introduced (into the text).

  • Please note that the majority of English Speakers are not American, Irish, British or Antipodean but are African and Asian…for them too, English is a second language. A free resource like Wikipedia, please don’t make it unreadable.

Jalipa 10:00, 20 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Learning about any new topic requires learning new bodies of names. It's just an unavoidable thing one encounters when one reads about non-anglophone peoples. You're contradicting yourself, Jalipa. If wiki is for Asians and Africans, then names like Dermot and Duncan are as likely unfamilar as Diarmait and Donnchad. Why unnecessarily misinform people? BTW, Gaelic names are not hard to pronounce. These languages have pretty standardized spellings ... which is totally unlike English. Regards, Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 20:40, 21 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Monarchs

The monarchs section is written as though assuming that the title should not be part of the article name, but I don't see anywhere where it actually says that. Gene Nygaard 10:35, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Monarchial titles, paragraph 1: Pre-emptively disambiguate the names of monarchs, of modern countries in the format "{Monarch's first name and ordinal} of {Country}".
This does not include title, so it should be omitted. This was the intention, and I think it's clear; but we can add it if there is some actual misreading. Septentrionalis 21:29, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm always uneasy drawing implications from what is not stated.
I was mostly making sure that we should be tracking down and changing articles such as Köprülü Mehmed Pasha and removing the "Pasha" from the article name. Gene Nygaard 02:55, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure Pasha should be omitted. He wasn't the monarch, and Pasha, like Earl, is a subordinate title. On the other hand, he's often called simply Mehmed Köprülü, which I hope is a redirect. Septentrionalis 20:44, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Disambiguating queens consort

The existing convention is not entirely clear about how we disambiguate queens consort who would otherwise have the same name, although we managed it pragmatically with Maria Anna of Bavaria. A thornier problem arises when applying naming conventions rigidly means giving a queen regnant and a queen consort the same name. This problem has arisen with Margaret of Scotland, Margaret of Scotland (Queen of Norway), and Margaret of Scotland (Dauphine of France). To complicate matters, the first is not generally known by this name, but as "the Maid of Norway". Scottish royals roughly before the time of Robert the Bruce do not have generally accepted family names, so it would be awkward to try to use one. Does the queen regnant automaticall take priority, or should we treat "Margaret of Scotland" as a disambiguation? As a general rule monarchs are more important than consorts, but in this case she was only a child who never ruled herself. The dispute about whether she was a queen is irrelevant. PatGallacher 00:28, 8 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think the last two comments indicate that we need to clarify that this guideline does lead to

Name of Place or even Name of Country does certainly not assert royalty, or being monarch. If that is a premise in naming kings, it is unthinked and will be unsuccessful. Particularly in Middle Ages, there are number of commoners known as "Name of Place" or "Name of Country" or suchlike. Bridget of Sweden was not a queen nor a princess. And, "of Some Town" is actually a usual designation of centuries-ago people instead of surnames which they did not have. Suedois 16:14, 20 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Cardinals

I have inserted here the text on which consensus is being reached at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Western clergy)#Cardinals, so as to allow input there from readers of this page.

The new text is also in much better accord with the policy indicated in Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people):

don't add qualifiers (such as "King", "Saint", "Dr.", "(person)", "(ship)"), except when this is the simplest and most NPOV way to deal with disambiguation

and

Similarly, "King", "Queen", "Blessed", "Mother", "Father", "Doctor", "Mister", or any other type of qualifier is generally avoided as first word for a page name of a page on a single person, unless for disambiguation or redirect purposes

Lima 08:47, 26 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Male consorts

I've changed the conventions to indicate that only queen consorts are intended when we say that no title is used in articles on consorts. Titles should most certainly be used for people like Prince George of Denmark. This was generally understood, I think, until some months ago when Cvfh decided to move George and Prince Albert's articles, supposedly to conform to naming conventions. john k 19:01, 30 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have reverted the conventions to the way the stood until yesterday. Such a major change should only occur after discussion on this page. Noel S McFerran 19:30, 30 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It's not a major change. It's a clarification. If you'll read archival discussions of this issue, you'll see that it was never intended to refer to male consorts. john k 19:33, 30 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The conventions do not distinguish between males and females, nor should they. Charles 21:19, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I brought this up when the changes to George and Albert were put into place, too. I've always known both of them to have Prince before their name when referring to them and I imagine I'm not the only one. Although I couldn't back it up, I think Wikipedia (or at least, those involved) are taking it too far when dropping pre-marital titles, in respect of male consorts anyway. Craigy (talk) 21:29, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The only common names I have heard for the princes with "Prince" included are Prince Albert and Prince George, with no territorial designations. Those don't qualify under the conventions. It may be seen as taking it too far for the females, even. I am quite sure that there are countless queens (etc) who are better known by their married names than by their maiden names but conventions say otherwise. Charles 21:42, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with john k that there should be an exemption for male consorts, it's not usual IMO. Prince Albert was after all known as such, not necessarily under his Wiki consort name, because in that case we would have a confusion of him being a sovereign of Saxe-Coburg. Gryffindor 23:01, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree. Princes Albert and George are, or should be, covered by the same sort of general exception as 4 under monarchs. All articles should be at sensible names, and if the guidelines result in something else, make it clear that they have exceptions. Not that it should matter what the guidelines say if common sense tells you something different: WP:IAR and WP:NBD apply everywhere. Angus McLellan (Talk) 23:25, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Angus, what are you supporting here, exactly? Prince Albert and Prince George are both ambiguous. john k 02:49, 4 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

(Unindent) I'm not supporting anything, only opposing the idea of adding ever more byzantine guidelines. Having said that, the most obvious prince consort is Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, which might be a clue as to how the less obvious ones might be named. Since the matter is contested, discussion here is not the answer. After all, there's a process for moving pages. Angus McLellan (Talk) 22:11, 6 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Philip, for the time being, is living. Charles 00:55, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In general, I agree with John. The succession laws are such that most male consorts keep their titles or are given new ones, whereas female consorts simply go by their husbands' titles. Deb 16:40, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I also agree with john k that his modification constituted a clarification rather than a change. I just read back through all of the archives, where the examples given regarding consorts are usually in the "Other Royals" section, and the examples given and discussed that I could find are of female consorts. Male consorts differ fundamentally from female consorts because the latter automatically take the feminine version of their husbands' titles (in most cases), whereas that has been the exception for male consorts (and the more recent the case, the more exceptional it is). Spain and Portugal had kings-consort as recently as the 19th century, but Spanish law now designates future male consorts by the title "Prince of Spain". Indeed, the trend is against males sharing their wives' monarchical title (Denmark, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Spain, UK). Female consorts all have a maiden name and then share their husband's title: That situation is covered by this guideline, whereas no such pattern exists for males and no male examples have been included in the guideline. So a separate rule for male consorts is appropriate, but needs to be agreed upon here. I propose that such consorts' articles appear in WP under their marital title while they live, and under their pre-marital name posthumously. Lethiere 18:55, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, everybody seems to agree with me, or to not have expressed a clear opinion, except for Charles. Given that, I'm going to make the clarification, and move the articles back. john k 12:07, 12 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that there is no clear opinion among some and not a whole lot of agreement indicates that this needs further discussion. I am reverting the changes to the guidelines. I don't know how such an artificial construction can be applied to all females but not to males, when both were consorts and not all females ever used this form. Charles 14:56, 12 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'd like to point out that the subject of male consorts has been discussed previously, and consensus was reached early in the history of the naming conventions. The fact that the wording of the conventions was still unclear doesn't mean that the conventions hadn't already been discussed and agreed in principle. Deb 16:49, 12 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The implementation of ambiguous conventions after such discussion necessitates further discussion of the subject. Charles 16:52, 12 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Invites rather than necessitates, perhaps. - Kittybrewster 18:04, 12 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Charles, it has been explained why male consorts are different from female consorts. Female consorts become Queens, so referring to them as "Princess X" is confusing, which is why we don't include "Princess" in their article titles. Prince Albert and Prince George remained princes throughout their lives, so it is not confusing in the same way. Beyond that, there is absolutely no consensus for your interpretation of the rules, so the articles on Prince Albert and Prince George ought to be moved back to where they were for a long time, until such time as a consensus comes around to your position. john k 14:40, 13 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I hate to disappoint you, but I support about half of his interpretation. I think the consort rules are broken, and that we should follow actual usage - which is largely, but not always, the same thing. Nevertheless, usage seems to me to be Prince Albert and George of Denmark respectively; James Hepburn, 4th Earl of Bothwell and Henry Stuart, Lord Darnley work fine for male consorts who are not royal by blood, and again, reflect usage. Septentrionalis 19:05, 13 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Well, it wouldn't be much of a discussion if you didn't disagree with me. Prince Albert is ambiguous - there are various other Prince Alberts of note, particularly the current sovereign prince of Monaco, who is generally known as "Prince Albert." With current wikipedia naming conventions George of Denmark suggests that he was the king of Denmark, which of course he was not. And I'm not sure why you find "George of Denmark" to be more commonly used than "Prince George of Denmark". In both cases, the title you suggest doesn't work. Prince Albert of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha and Prince George of Denmark, beyond being where these articles were at for ages, are unambiguous and plausible titles. Charles' interpretation of naming policy, an interpretation which nobody yet (including you, apparently) agrees with, should not be a basis for moving articles which were at one location for a long time. The articles should go back, and people should do RMs if they want them to go somewhere else. I'm not going to actually move them back until I'm assured that Charles won't just go ahead and continue the move war (Prince Albert, in particular, has a ridiculous number of redirects that need to be corrected after each move), but this is quite obviously the correct position. At that point, if you (or Charles, or whoever) want to propose moves, go ahead, and let the chips fall where they may. But Charles's unilateral moves shouldn't get to stay simply because he's more persistent. john k 11:23, 14 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I have no issues with Prince George of Denmark, but I think Albert is rather better known for being Victoria's Prince Consort than for being a prince of some postage stamp German principality. What's wrong with Albert, Prince Consort (or Prince Albert, Prince Consort if tautology doesn't offend) ? Open a requested move and then you'll be able to determine what the consensus actually is. Angus McLellan (Talk) 12:08, 14 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Albert, Prince Consort (or Prince Albert, Prince Consort) would be potentially alright with me. Better than the current title. My basic position is that we should move the things back to where they were at before any requested moving is done. I'm not the one who moved the things without an RM - Charles is. john k 15:29, 14 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Titles granted to consorts are always of importance, so I would be fine with such a name. Howeverm, my previous moves were made in compliance with standing guidelines. Compare Henrik, the Danish consort, with Albert for naming. Charles 16:51, 14 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm having difficulty with this rationale because I can't agree that "James Hepburn, 4th Earl of Bothwell" and "Henry Stuart, Lord Darnley" are "usage". Usage would be "James Hepburn" or "the Earl of Bothwell", and "Henry Stuart" or "Lord Darnley". It seems to me that Wiki's foremost naming standard is usage, but that isn't its exclusive standard. Usage is normally blended with other criteria for encyclopedic reasons of clarity, NPOV, consistency, disambiguation, globalization, etc. In English-language communication my guess is that Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom is more often referred to as "the Queen" or "the Queen of England" or "Queen Elizabeth". For that matter, "Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh" is probably most often just called "Prince Philip" and the current "Princess Royal of the United Kingdom" is most often "Princess Anne", and so on for UK royalty. But none of the most used locutions is the title of a Wiki article because they don't go far enough to meet other Wiki criteria.
Therefore, I think that the current disagreement over Victoria's consort mixes up two issues: 1. are the conventions governing female consorts to be applied to male consorts, and 2. given that "usage" is the primary consideration, to what extent should the most common name be compromised in order to address other relevant conventions? I think inclusion of the most appropriate among surname ("Wettin"), geographical reference ("of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha") or (unique or rare) title ("Prince Consort") is needed in male consort article names. Lethiere 22:35, 15 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree with the move to the present title. The article was properly placed at Prince Albert of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha. Deb 19:43, 14 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
According to whom? Charles 22:04, 14 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
According to me, for one. He is always known by this title in the UK. The article title was arrived at after much discussion and should not have been changed without consultation. Deb 22:25, 14 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Always? Saxe-Coburg and Gotha or Saxe-Coburg-Gotha? What about plain old "Prince Albert" or the "Prince Consort". Is he not known by those? Charles 23:20, 14 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Sometimes - but never by the title the article is currencly at. Deb 10:50, 15 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
One related problem is that some editors (including the two major parties in this dispute) move pages unilaterally. They come across a page the name of which they consider does not conform with the Naming conventions and move it without discussion. The conventions allow for exceptions to the general rule. Were there always discussions before a page move, this kind of thing could be avoided. (Related to this is the changing of all page names form "Saxe-Coburg-Gotha" to "Saxe-Coburg and Gotha" in spite of the fact that English-language usage is overwhelmingly for the former). Noel S McFerran 13:11, 15 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
True. That's why I've put in an RM request for what I consider an essential move. Deb 15:32, 15 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The conventions (see #10) specifically state that they apply to male consorts as well as female consorts: "The same rule applies to male royal consorts.". The current name for the article follows the naming conventions.—Chidom talk  01:55, 21 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This convention is completely broken

I've been going through various related articles, and I've come to the conclusion that these naming conventions are completely broken. A couple of points:

  1. For reigning monarchs, it is generally adequate, save that Polish monarchs, due to advocacy largely by Polish wikipedians, do not follow it at all.
  2. The other problem is regnal number for monarchs who are the only one of the name. Usage seems to be wildly inconsistent here, and often a number seems to be added not because the person in question used one, but in order to disambiguate (c.f. Alexander I of Greece). In other instances, like Louis Philippe, no ordinal is given, even though he was "Louis Philippe 1er."
  3. Another problem is what form of the name to use, which is wildly inconsistent. This is problematic with some reigning monarchs. For instance, All the Kings of Sweden who have traditionally been called "Gustavus" in English and who are called "Gustaf" in Swedish are for some reason called "Gustav" on Wikipedia.
  4. The problem even worse with non-reigning monarchs, and especially with royal women who marry men who are royals in other countries. What form of name do we use for a Spanish infanta, born and raised in Italy, who married a German husband and lived with him in Italy, where he was a Grand Duke, for most of her married life, before moving for her last two years to Vienna where she became Empress of the (largely German) Holy Roman Empire? She was also Queen of Hungary and Bohemia. Should she be the Spanish Maria Luisa, the German Maria Ludovika, the anglicized Maria Louisa? There are also serious issues with the endings of German feminine names - forms like "Marie" and "Maria" seem to be used indiscriminately and interchangeably, with no particular way to tell which one should be used.
  5. What do we do with people who have the same name? There seems to be a strong tendency to artificially disambiguate by making up slight variations on the same name. Thus, we have Prince Henry of Prussia and Prince Heinrich of Prussia, in spite of the fact that both men could be known by both names, and are. We also have even worse examples of similar things, as for instance when a long list of middle names is added to the title, not because the person was called by them, but in order to disambiguate.
  6. Russian consort naming is completely out of whack - just look at it. For the 6 russian Empresses between 1796 and 1917, we have five completely different forms in use. How on earth is anyone supposed to know that Maria Fyodorovna refers to the wife of Alexander III and Maria Fyodorovna of Russia refers to the wife of Paul I?
  7. consort naming in general continues to strike me as problematic. We've had debates about male consorts, with no consensus in sight, but the current female rules seem particularly anglocentric to me, in that they are based on common usage with British consorts. Does anyone actually call the late wife of Frederick IX of Denmark Ingrid of Sweden? Genealogists do, but wikipedia is not a genealogy reference. There's also problems with how to determine the "maiden name." Louis XIII's wife is traditionally called Anne of Austria. This is not because she was Austrian (she was Spanish), but because she came from the House of Austria. her niece and daughter-in-law, also a Spanish Habsburg, is at Maria Theresa of Spain, although parallelism would suggest either Marie Thérèse of Austria or Anna of Spain.
  8. Additionally, the consort naming rules lead to confusion with the main monarch naming rules. Anne of Austria could be a queen consort from Austria (or, er, Spain), or it could mean Anne, ruling Empress of Austria. Similarly, Victoria of the United Kingdom is the proper title in our naming conventions not only for Queen Victoria, but also for her eldest daughter, who became (briefly) German Empress and Queen of Prussia.

I'm not sure if there's any good way to resolve all of this. I will suggest one basic thing that I really do think should be in there: if two dynasts are known by the same name, disambiguate by birth and death dates. This will eliminate a fair amount of the inconsistency, and especially the creation of arbitrary article titles created entirely for the purposes of disambiguation. But it won't solve a lot of it.

I'm not sure what more to say about this. The current naming rules are incredibly complicated, and yet still far from clear on any number of issues (what I highlighted above is just a start.) Some potential suggestions that might help, but proposed much more tenuously than the previous proposal, are:

  1. Eliminate the current "Name Ordinal of Country" rule for monarchs. Instead: a) only disambiguate when necessary; and b) disambiguate parenthetically. Thus, instead of Henry IV of England, Henry IV, Holy Roman Emperor, Henry IV of France, Henry IV of Castile, you'd have Henry IV (England), Henry IV (France), Henry IV (Holy Roman Empire and Henry IV (Castile). For monarchs who are the only one of the name, just have Louis XIV or Frederick William IV.
  2. Eliminate the current consort rule. Only use maiden name to disambiguate when this is commonly done (e.g. Anne of Austria, Catherine of Aragon, Anne Boleyn). If the person is the only person by a given name to have been consort of a given country, there's no reason to not simply use that - Queen Marie of Romania only refers to one person in all of human history. Why refer to her by the entirely unrecognizable Marie of Edinburgh, which is a ridiculous artificial wikipedia form, in any event? In other, more ambiguous cases, disambiguation by date might be done...
  3. Try to come up with some kind of consistent rule to deal with princesses who marry princes who never become King or Grand Duke, or whatever. This is a particular mess that I didn't even mention above - there is absolutely no consistency in such cases.
  4. More broadly - wikipedia is not a genealogy source. Using genealogical rules for how to name articles is counter-intuitive and often awkward looking.

At any rate, the current rules are deeply intricate, but largely useless. I think we can do better.

Last thing - over on my user page I've been trying to make a fairly comprehensive list of European Queens consort from 1500 onwards. In organizing the list, I've also included in the table the monarchs they were consort to. I hope this is a useful resource for everyone. One thing you will notice as you look at it is how wildly inconsistent naming can be. See it at User:John Kenney/Queens. john k 17:38, 21 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]


You're terribly right, alas. I am trying to create a naming convention for the French Wikipedia, and I find that the only written one, the English one, is very complicated and seldom used. For the names of every regning monarch I propose this:
  1. Use the English name when it exists : Charles XVI Gustav like Charles X Gustav, not Carl XVI Gustaf (the choice between Gustav and Gustavus is another problem. I don't speak English well enogh to have an opinion about it).
  2. If no English form exists, or no Latin (for example) form used in English, then use the form in it's original language: Ladislaus III or Ladislas III, and not Władysław III; but Taishō or Taishō (emperor of Japan) and not ... not any translation of it!
  3. If a foreign monarch is well-known under his foreign name, we can tolarate it: Juan Carlos I, rather than John Charles I; Baudouin I (king of Belgium) rather than Baldwin I. But we can't if this monarch uses one of his predecessor's name: the next king of Spain is to be called Philip VI, not Felipe VI. generally, try to avoid such foreign names if such foreign names can be avoided: Henry (grand duke of Luxembourg) rather than Henri.
  4. Never use the term of Somewhere, which is not a part of the name: Louis XIV better than Louis XIV of France.
  5. Never use systematic titles wich are not a part of the name: Go-Sakuramachi, and not Empress Go-Sakuramachi; John Paul II, and not Pope John Paul II; Bartholomew I, and not Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I of Constantinople.
  6. Never use surnames or nicknames of monarchs: Napoleon I and not Napoleon I Bonaparte; Gustav I, not Gustav Vasa; Ladislaus III instead of Władysław III Spindleshanks; except if the nickname is the only way to disambiguate two monarchs with the same name.
  7. If an ambiguity does exist, use desambiguation parenthetically, with a clear definition of the title: Louis IV (king of France), and not Louis IV of France, nor Louis IV (France): Louis IV was a king of France, not a France. Names like "king" or "emperor" don't need a capital letter of course. Pre-emptive disambuguation are to be avoided: Louis XIV rather than Louis XIV (king of France).
  8. If a monarch is the only one to bear his name, use the numeral I only when it is officially used (most often for recent monarchs): Baudouin I (king of Belgium) and not Baudouin, but Henry (grand duke of Luxembourg) and not Henry I.
  9. If a monarch has an official regnal name, use it, even if it's not the most known one: Benedict XVI and not Joseph Ratzinger; Meiji or Meiji (emperor of Japan), and not Mutsuhito; Shōwa, or Shōwa (emperor of Japan), and not Hirohito. Since the Japanese emperors take their regnal name only when they die, the present emperor can be named by his personal name: Akihito, and not Heisei, but his article will have to be renamed after his death into Heisei or Heisei (emperor of Japan) as surely as the article Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger was renamed into Pope Benedict XVI on the very hour of his election.
  10. If a monarch has two names, both abinding by this naming convention, the choice of one of them on the other is not really important: both Kōken and Shōtoku are correct. If the two titles are unequal, prefer the most prestigious one (emperor upon king upon prince upon duke...) : Ladislaus II (king of Poland) rather than Jogaila. If a monarch of a country is more trivially the monarch of another less important country, just use the name he bears in the first one: Philip III (king of Spain), rather than Philip II (king of Portugal).
  11. Create a template {{monarch name}} to place in every article found that doesn't respect the naming convention. Some will find better just to change directly the name of the article, but a lot of them have their present title after long disputes. I think that placing this template first could be a good first step, and maybe the user who find the article's title wrong may prefer to have the opinion of other users. To place the template is easier than to take the decision to change the article's name.
For consorts or members of a royal family, I have no ideas yet.
Švitrigaila 18:46, 21 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I had detailed point by point responses, but I got edit conflicted and don't feel like merging them in again. Basically, I disagree with you about anglicization. Inconsistency is definitely a problem, but anglicizing more often is not the solution. Carl XVI Gustaf and Henri are called that, not "Charles Gustavus" or "Henry". I would, alternately, propose a date-based cut-off. European monarchs ruling before World War II should, by default, be anglicized unless it can be demonstrated conclusively that this is not the most common form. European monarchs after World War II should not be anglicized unless the reverse can be shown. This would allow for exceptions like Carol I and Constantine II, but also acknowledge that there is a genuine distinction to be made between the two time periods. In terms of disambiguation, pre-emptive and otherwise, I at least partially agree. I want to remove the "X of X implies monarch" idea, because "X of X" really should not imply monarch, and monarchs known as things like William of Holland and Philip of Swabia should be at those locations, rather than bizarre artificial locations because those titles currently imply that they were kings of Holland and Swabia, respectively. I'm somewhat concerned about "systematic titles". When are they part of the name? Are we limiting this rule to sovereigns? At what point does a ruler become a sovereign? john k 19:16, 21 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Er, rereading, I think I wasn't very clear. What I mean by the last point above is, "what exactly is a reigning monarch?" This can become very confusing in the Middle Ages. john k 19:23, 21 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I prefer to use English names in English, French names in French, and so on. I know I'm a minority, so I don't insist on it. but i think it's intersting to keep the traditions, and if there is a tradition to translate the Swedish Carls and the Spanish Felipes, there is no reason to terminate it.
This naming convention mustn't be limited to sovereigns. It can be expended to every people bearing this kind of name. For exemple some religious leader (the pope, but a lot of Eastern Orthodox Churches' leaders two), or rulers of territories bearing these kind of names.
Sorry for the editing conflict, it was you or me! Usually, it can be resolved easily by copiing and pasting what you wanted to write. It's just what I'm doing right now!! Švitrigaila 19:26, 21 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Never use surnames or nicknames of monarchs" is completely unacceptable. Renaming Charlemagne to Charles I (Holy Roman Empire) or Edward the Confessor to Edward III (England, first series) is not an option. And let's not beg the question by dismissing bynames which have been in use for a centuries as "nicknames". Angus McLellan (Talk) 20:18, 21 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, I think. I was going to say so in my original comment, but forgot, or decided not to, or something. Charles the Bold would be a far better title than the absurd Charles I, Duke of Burgundy, and similarly for many other medieval type rulers, who are better known by their by name than ordinal. On the other hand, I think that where it would be natural to use either byname or ordinal, we should favor the ordinal. So Edward I rather than Edward Longshanks, for instance. john k 22:37, 21 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I personally think that what John is saying touches upon many things that should be fixed, but there are some things I do not agree with. I don't think the territory should be omitted if there is only one Louis XIV for instance. I also don't think that the territory should be placed in parentheses. To me, parentheses should only be used as disambiguation between two people with the same name (and that includes the same territorial designation). I think the ordinal think can easily be fixed... One just has to go with what was actually used. If there was only one monarch of a particular name then it must be determined whether or not he or she used "the First" or not.

But why, exactly, should Louis XIV be disambiguated? There is only one person ever called Louis XIV. I would add that for kings, the territorial designation is not part of their names. Louis XIV's name was "Louis XIV," not "Louis XIV of France". For instance, in my view at least, the thing that goes before birth and death dates on monarch articles should clearly be Louis XIV (1638-1715), not Louis XIV of France (1638-1715). In terms of ordinals: Maybe. But what do we do for the ones where an ordinal has been added to disambiguate? C.f. Alexander I of Greece. john k 03:25, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Parenthesising the disambiguation, including the territory, is technically better from an editing perspective and makes no difference to the reader. Endlessly typing [[Henry IV, Holy Roman Emperor|Henry IV]] and the like becomes tedious very quickly. [[Henry IV (Holy Roman Empire)|]] is rather easier. For pre-modern people, either ordinals are used by historians, in which case they should be used here too, or they aren't, in which case whatever system the historians use should be followed. For modern people, it should be very easy to determine the common usage in English (i.e. Louis Philippe Ier is not called that in English and the only way that would be justified on WP would be if all French rulers were given French names). Angus McLellan (Talk) 13:37, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
In terms of ordinals for modern monarchs, I'm not sure I agree. On Louis Philippe, obviously we don't use the little superscripted "er" to mean "Premier". But He was Louis Philippe I (and arguably one could call his grandson Louis Philippe II). Also, what, precisely, is the usage on King Karl of Württemberg? Is he Karl I, or just Karl, or Charles, or Charles I? I am probably better equipped to answer this than most people, and I will say that I have absolutely no idea on either the anglicization question or the ordinal question. One would have to go to fairly specialized or detailed books to even find him mentioned. I would imagine that, at the time, he was usually called "Charles" in English. But the New York Times article from 1891 about his death calls him "Karl I." and his successor "Wilhelm II." And I really have no idea what current usage would be. More likely Karl than not. But it seems to me that it's pretty close to completely obscure. And Karl I was a King! He should be easy to find references to. Think how incredibly difficult it will be to find decent references on how to number/anglicize Princes of Schaumburg-Lippe or what not. john k 21:51, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

For issues of Marie/Maria/Mary, etc, for all intents and purposes those are acceptable in English, so just use what is the most common or use the form that goes with the language of the principal title.

A couple of issues with this. Doing it based on "form that goes with the language of the principal title" is easy enough for princesses whose principal titles were English or Scottish (Mary), French (Marie) or Italian or Spanish (Maria). But with Germans, it seems problematic - either Maria or Marie seems to be used, more or less indiscriminately. And this is true for an enormous number of German female names. Beyond that, you've got issues with, say, a French princess named "Amélie" who becomes queen of Portugal. Should she be Amélie, Amelia, or Amalia? All of this could be worked out, but there's a more basic problem at work here: there's tons and tons of already existing articles, and they're virtually impossible to find without going to the article on their husband, because there's absolutely no consistency in naming. john k 03:25, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Distinguishing between people with identical names should always be done via birth date and death date... That is what I have always done when disambiguating consorts and the like. The name sans dates should be a disambiguation page, of course. Speaking of consorts, I do not think the consort rule should be eliminated at all. For most consorts it reflects what was actually used. That in itself speaks of a standard. If there is another common name that ought to be used (because it has strong usage) then use it. There can be exceptions to rules.

Yes, the consort rule is workable, I think. I generally don't like using this form when there's a perfectly unique "Queen Givenname of Country." In Romania, for instance, there is one Queen Elisabeth, one Queen Marie, and one Queen Anne. In Yugoslavia there is a Queen Maria and a Queen Alexandra. In Greece there is a Queen Olga, a Queen Sophia, a Queen Elisabeth, a Queen Frederika, and a Queen Anne-Marie. In Italy there is a Queen Margherita, a Queen Elena, and a Queen Marie José. There's no especial reason to disambiguate by often not very well known birth names in these cases. But it's not a huge deal either way. I am, however, entirely frustrated with a certain number of subsets:
  1. Russian empresses. They are a total mess. I'm going to suggest my earlier proposal of "Regnal Name and Patronymic (Birthname of Territorial designation)". For a current example, of this format, see Alexandra Fyodorovna (Charlotte of Prussia).
  2. British princesses who were the granddaughter of the monarch and who married and became sovereigns. Marie of Edinburgh and Maud of Wales are just incredibly awkward titles for articles. They are never called this. They were, before their marriages, "Princess Marie of Edinburgh," and "Princess Maud of Wales," but those were styles, not names. This form should die a quick death.
  3. General Anglocentric problems with British princesses who became foreign queens. I think particularly of Charlotte, Princess Royal and Victoria, Princess Royal, who were, respectively, a Queen and an Empress, and who are nonetheless at locations emphasizing their birth country.

I don't think the consort rule really confuses with monarchs... That is all cleared up in the articles themselves. Most royal women so named were consorts, rather than sovereigns in their own right and most of the time it was a man who was sovereign. The sovereign women being the exception, they are notable enough for even the most daft of individuals to have an inkling as to the difference between her and a consort. Again, it is all within the articles. Regarding Victoria of the UK, her daughter used her highest title as a maiden princess, which is Princess Royal... I think that is acceptable. Had she not been created such, we would then have an issue.

But she was German Empress. Isn't it weird for the article title to call her a "Princess" when she was, in fact, an Empress. This is the whole point of the "remove Princess from Queens maiden names" rule. john k 03:25, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

One thing that really does need to be fixed though is the series of Russian tsarinas and even some of the Russian grand duchesses! Territorial designations are omitted at times, marital territorial designations are mixed with maiden territorial designations and patronymics are either omitted or vary for women carrying the same one. I think this all shouldn't be the basis to change a bunch of rules, vut it needs to be discussed as an issue on it's own so a sort of style guide can be implemented if need be. Charles 01:08, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Women of the Romanov family are a mess. I see a number of categories:
  1. Empress-Consorts. These are:
    1. Maria Fyodorovna, wife of Paul
    2. Elizabeth Alexeyevna, wife of Alexander I
    3. Alexandra Fyodorovna, wife of Nicholas I
    4. Maria Alexandrovna, wife of Alexander II
    5. Maria Fyodorovna, wife of Alexander III
    6. Alexandra Fyodorovna, wife of Nicholas II.
  2. Grand Duchesses by marriage. I think they should be at the form "Grand Duchess Adoptedname [if applicable] Patronymic of Russia". Disambiguation, when necessary, can be done by birth and death dates. Ladies affected:
    1. Grand Duchess Natalia Alexeyevna (Wilhelmina of Hesse-Darmstadt), first wife of Tsar Paul
    2. Grand Duchess Anna Feodorovna (Juliane of Saxe-Coburg), first wife of Grand Duke Contantine Pavlovich
    3. Grand Duchess Helena Pavlovna (Charlotte of Württemberg), wife of Grand Duke Michael Pavlovich
    4. Grand Duchess Alexandra Iosifovna (Alexandra of Saxe-Altenburg), wife of Grand Duke Constantine Nikolayevich
    5. Grand Duchess Alexandra Petrovna (Alexandra of Oldenburg), wife of Grand Duke Nicholas Nikolayevich Senior
    6. Grand Duchess Olga Fyodorovna (Cecilie of Baden), wife of Grand Duke Michael Nikolayevich
    7. Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna (Marie of Mecklenburg-Schwerin), wife of Grand Duke Vladimir Alexandrovich
    8. Grand Duchess Elisabeth Fyodorovna (Elisabeth of Hesse-Darmstadt), wife of Grand Duke Sergei Alexandrovich
    9. Grand Duchess Alexandra Yurievna/Georgievna [I'm not really sure - her father was King George I of Greece] (Alexandra of Greece), first wife of Grand Duke Paul Alexandrovich
    10. Grand Duchess Elisabeth Mavrikievna (Elisabeth of Saxe-Altenburg), wife of Grand Duke Constantine Constantinovich
    11. Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna (Anastasia of Montenegro), wife of Grand Duke Nicholas Nikolayevich Junior
    12. Grand Duchess Militza Nikolaevna (Militza of Montenegro), wife of Grand Duke Peter Nikolayevich
    13. Grand Duchess Maria Yurievna/Georgievna [again, a daughter of George I] (Marie of Greece), wife of Grand Duke George Mikhailovich
    14. Grand Duchess Xenia Alexandrovna (Xenia of, er, Russia - the only Romanov to Romanov marriage!), wife of Grand Duke Alexander Mikhailovich
    15. Grand Duchess Victoria Feodorovna (Victoria Melita of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha and the United Kingdom), wife of Grand Duke Cyril Vladimirovich
    16. Grand Duchess Leonida Yurievna/Georgievna, wife of Grand Duke Vladimir Kirillovich.
  3. Grand Duchesses by birth who became Queen consorts of foreign countries:
    1. Grand Duchess Catherine Pavlovna, who became Queen of Württemberg
    2. Grand Duchess Anna Pavlovna, who became Queen of the Netherlands
    3. Grand Duchess Olga Nikolaevna, who became Queen of Württemberg
      note that, as Queen of Württemberg, she was known as Alexandra! john k 22:29, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    4. Grand Duchess Olga Constantinovna, who became Queen of Greece
  4. Grand Duchesses by birth who became consorts, but not Queen consorts (i.e. Grand Duchesses, Duchesses, sovereign Princesses)
    1. Grand Duchess Catherine Ivanovna (1691-1733), who became Duchess of Mecklenburg-Schwerin
    2. Grand Duchess Anna Petrovna (1708-1728), who became Duchess of Holstein-Gottorp
    3. Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna (1786-1859), who became Grand Duchess of Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach
    4. Grand Duchess Elisabeth Mikhailovna (1826-1845), who became Duchess of Nassau
    5. Grand Duchess Maria Alexandrovna (1853-1920), who became Duchess of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha
    6. Grand Duchess Anastasia Mikhailovna (1860-1922), who became Grand Duchess of Mecklenburg-Schwerin
  5. Grand Duchesses by birth who married foreign princes who were not themselves sovereigns
    1. Grand Duchess Alexandra Pavlovna, daughter of Tsar Paul, who married Archduke Joseph of Austria
    2. Grand Duchess Elena Pavlovna, daughter of Tsar Paul, who married the Hereditary Grand Duke of Mecklenburg-Schwerin
    3. Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna, daughter of Alexander III, who married (and later divorced) Duke Peter of Oldenburg
    4. Grand Duchess Maria Kirillovna, daughter of Grand Duke Cyril, who married the Prince of Leiningen
    5. Grand Duchess Kira Kirillovna, daughter of Grand Duke Cyril, who married Prince Louis Ferdinand of Prussia
    6. Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna, daughter of Grand Duke Vladimir Kirillovich, who married a prince of Prussia, but is the head of the house
    7. Grand Duchess Elena Vladimirovna, daughter of Vladimir Alexandrovich, who married Prince Nicholas of Greece
    8. Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna, daughter of Grand Duke Paul, who married (and later divorced) Prince William of Sweden
    9. Grand Duchess Maria Nikolayevna, daughter of Nicholas I, who married the Duke of Leuchtenberg
    10. Grand Duchess Alexandra Nikolayevna, daughter of Nicholas I, who married a Prince of Hesse-Kassel
    11. Grand Duchess Vera Constantinovna, daughter of Constantine Nikolayevich, who married a Duke of Württemberg
    12. Grand Duchess Catherine Mikhailovna, daughter of Michael Pavlovich, who married a Duke of Mecklenburg-Strelitz
  6. Grand Duchesses who did not marry foreign princes
    1. Grand Duchess Praskovia Ivanovna, daughter of Ivan V (there were a couple of others who died in infancy)
    2. Grand Duchess Natalia Alexeyevna, daughter of Tsesarevich Alexis, son of Peter the Great
    3. a few daughters of Peter the Great and Catherine I who died in infancy
    4. Grand Duchess Olga Pavlovna, daughter of Paul (died in infancy)
    5. Grand Duchesses Maria Alexandrovna and Elisabeth Alexandrovna, daughters of Alexander I (both died in infancy)
    6. Grand Duchess Maria Mikhailovna, daughter of Michael Pavlovich (and a sister, Anna Mikhailovna, who died in infancy)
    7. Grand Duchesses Olga, Tatiana, Maria, and Anastasia Nikolayevna, daughters of Nicholas II
  7. sui generis, Grand Duchess Anna Leopoldovna, mother of Emperor Ivan VI.

So, we need to figure out how to deal with all these ladies. (Not to mention all the Princesses of Russia. john k 03:25, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that these really have to be discussed separately. But let me say here that I sympathize with John's position, whatever disagreements with individual points I may have later. The only general comment I can make is that some of these, like the Polish monarchs, cannot be fixed by altering the convention; they have to be fixed by move requests, backed up by documentation. Elonka has done this at Talk:Boleslaw I of Poland; it's a long slow process, but it works. Septentrionalis 16:37, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

One thing at a time

The above discussion about a "completely broken" convention is hardly useful when it is dealing with so many matters at one time. That is no way to achieve a consensus. I don't think that the convention is perfect. But the mere fact that some articles do not conform with it is not proof of brokenness; there is nothing wrong with occasional exceptions to the rule. Let's talk about one thing at a time. Noel S McFerran 03:33, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I'll start out with disambiguation of dynasts whose names/titles are the same. I propose that this be done by birth and death dates. john k 03:51, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest the following wording:
Where the most common form of the name used in English for two persons is identical (e.g., Elisabeth of Austria), distinguish the two persons by adding birth and death dates (e.g. Elisabeth of Austria (1554-1592)). Where two persons are sometimes known by an identical name (e.g., Infante Carlos of Spain), but are more commonly known by different names or different forms of the name, use the most common form of the name used in English (e.g. Carlos, Count of Montemolin and Carlos, Duke of Madrid).
Noel S McFerran 13:17, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
What do we do in the many cases where we only have imprecise dates ? For example, if we had to disambiguate Margaret of Denmark, Mrs James III of Scotland, (which I don't think we do, but I couldn't be bothered looking for a better example) how do we do that ? Margaret of Denmark (born 1456) ? Margaret of Denmark (1456-x1486) ? Something else again ? Angus McLellan (Talk) 13:55, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Margaret of Denmark (1456-1486)? Seems close enough for government work. Noel's proposed wording seems good. john k 14:08, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Or Margaret of Denmark (1456-1486?). Or possibly Margaret of Denmark (queen consort of Scotland). Septentrionalis 16:40, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
According to the 'Oxford Dictionary of National Biography,
Margaret of Denmark died at Stirling Castle on 14 July 1486 and was buried in Cambuskenneth Abbey later that month.
According to them, it is her birthdate that is uncertain, being either in 1456 or 1457. john k 17:32, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
If the birthdate is uncertain, could we not used Margaret of Denmark (d. 1486)? It have been implemented before for a royal of either unknown birthdate or death date (I can't remember which). Similarly, the birthdate only has been used to disambiguate between living royals of the same name, that is (b. 1954) for example. Charles 18:03, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not that keen on the "dates" solution to disambiguation problems, because I don't think it is much help to a user who may be trying to find the particular person they want. A description of some kind is generally more useful. Having said that, I realise of course that there is an issue of standardization here. Deb 19:11, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
We'd certainly need to have a serious look at disambiguation pages and redirects. Until last week, King Stephen redirected to a French nonentity. No doubt there are many more similar cases of bias (indeed; less than a minute to find Michael II). Angus McLellan (Talk) 20:25, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Are you describing the Sephen who was King of England as "a French nonentity"? I do agree that he shouldn't get precedence over the Kings Stephen of Hungary, Poland, and Serbia. Beyond that, I think the dates solution is better because it works for everyone. Sometimes a description of some kind isn't terribly helpful. Prince Henry of Prussia (brother of Frederick the Great) and Prince Henry of Prussia (brother of William II) doesn't seem particularly worthwhile, for instance. And I agree with Angus that disambiguation pages and redirects are the key to making anything relating to royalty work - there's far too many bizarre redirects and idiosyncratic article locations, and far too few disambiguation pages and redirects on alternate versions of names. john k 21:34, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I think 9 times out of 10 an English speaker would only be referring to one person by the name "King Stephen" ... the evil one during "the Anarchy". I don't think it'd be fair to call him a non-entity; at the very least, one of the reasons the English legal system was so sophisticated by the death of Henry II was in order to disinherit lawfully and effectively the followers of Stephen; and in being French he was exactly the same as every other rex Anglorum in the century before and after his reign, including Henry II (who according to Gerald of Wales needed a translation to speak to the Saxon rustics who were ignorant of the court language. Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 21:49, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Henry IV

Reasons for the present practice, which is Henry IV of England, Henry IV of France, Henry IV, Holy Roman Emperor. (Please free free to reply to each separately.)

I would have no objection to making Henry IV (France) a standard redirect so the pipe trick will work. Septentrionalis 18:11, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
This is picking an easy example, which rather defeats the purpose of the discussion. An advantage of parenthetical disambiguation is that it works in all cases and we don't need to use a different system for monarchs and others. It even works for horrible cases like Cristina, daughter of Edward the Exile and Agatha, wife of Edward the Exile. It would help for Kievan Rus rulers, if we ever get round to having articles on most of those. No need to have arbitrary rules to distinguish Iaroslav Sviatopolkovich (son of Sviatopolk Iziaslavich) from Iaroslav Sviatopolkovich (son of Sviatopolk Iaroslavich). It would also simplify dealing with the Byzantine and Islamic worlds, where the stock of royal names tends to be rather limited. Think big ! Let's not have a guideline that only really works for England, France and the Holy Roman Empire in the late medieval and modern eras. Angus McLellan (Talk) 20:10, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Horrible systems are intended for horrible cases. I agree that Cristina (daughter of Edward the Exile) is preferable to the unparenned version. What does this case, which is not covered by the present convention at all, have to do with Henry IV, where there is an easy and obvious dab?
I disagree strongly that this is necessary or useful for the Byzantines, who have an established nomenclature (including surnames, which do most of the work). If anyone wants an Islamic convention, feel free to write one. Septentrionalis 22:53, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The John Doukas (disambiguation) page suggests that the Byzantine system is less bulletproof than you think. The fact that John Komnenos, Alexios Angelos and Isaac Angelos, to pick only three, are redlinked, is further evidence that the Byzantine system only works for a very limited value of working. Angus McLellan (Talk) 23:20, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
All those John Ducases have distinct names, however; and Isaac Angelus is Isaac II Angelus, as he ought to be. Alexius may still be struggling in the swamp resulting from overuse of ODB transliteration. Septentrionalis 00:20, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I also would support, and regret not having a chance to suggest, Prince Albert (consort). Septentrionalis 00:20, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I would agree with Angus, I think, and also add that I would probably say "Elizabeth supported Henry IV of France." john k 21:27, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
How about if you'd already mentioned France? Septentrionalis 22:53, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'd hope that the article would make make it clear who Henry IV was when it introduced him, or that it said Henry IV King of France. Having checked, the Elizabeth I article as it stands only links to Henry IV as Henry IV. Angus McLellan (Talk) 23:08, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
And that could be clearer. I've left a double link, since I don't care which name we link through. Septentrionalis 00:24, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure that this is not a angles on pinheads argument. Several times I have created pages with names like English Interregnum and at the same time created a redirect that points to it to take advantage of the pipe trick (so named because it is taken from ideas in UNIX shell programming) Interregnum. From the arguments expressed on this page to date has left me agnostic on whether pages should be moved from Henry IV of England to Henry IV (England). From the point of view of just English Kings and Queens, I would leave them at "XXX 99 of England" but I can also see the argument that for some foreign dynasties this may not be appropriate -- after all we already make that distinction for Roman emperors, and we are tying to construct a general rule. --Philip Baird Shearer 13:22, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

When there's an ordinal, "Henry IV of England" works, because the person in question is obviously a reigning monarch. But John of England, Paul of Greece, and so forth, are a lot more awkward. And then there's the cases where it's entirely unnecessary - there's only one Louis XIV, only one Edward VIII, only one Frederick William IV, only one Carl XVI Gustaf, and so forth. Changing the way we do it doesn't make "Henry IV of England" any better, but it does let us have Louis XIV and John (King of England), which seem like definite improvements to me. john k 14:15, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
But when there isn't ? Encouraged by your suggestion that we fill in missing royalty, I added a King of France : Philip of France (1116-1131). I don't see an easy way to do that without brackets. Angus McLellan (Talk) 18:38, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Angus, I believe we agree. the current policy works for monarchs with ordinals, but not very well for monarchs without ordinals. brackets seem to be the best way to deal with these issues, in that it allows the awkward parts of the title to be left in the brackets. john k 19:02, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have to say I don't like the parenthesised country name. X (foo) generally means "the X that is/was a foo" ("the John Smith who was a British politician", or what not). Henry IV was not an England, and so Henry IV (England) just seems wrong to me. The more correct Henry IV (King of England) is just too unwieldy, and I can see your point about John of England not looking right. The only solution I can see to that that sits well with me is to remove our rule about not having titles in article names and put him at King John of England. Since he's normally called "King John", this would seem quite sensible to me. If we did this with them all, most of the problems about people looking like Kings would be removed, as they'd only look like Kings if they had "King" in their article name. This would also be consistent with your suggested Queen Marie of Romania (which I agree is the best place for her to be). Proteus (Talk) 15:17, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Or Marie of Romania, which adds flexibility. It's a direct link from uses like Dorothy Parker's, and we can still write "Queen Marie of Romania" when precision is wanted. But abolishing the (inadvertent) convention that Name of Place looks like royalty would be a Good Thing; so I'm torn. Septentrionalis 19:14, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I really don't like links to names that have part included whilst excluding another part. Queen Marie of Romania, Sir John Smith, Professor Henry Jones, etc., all make us look quite sloppy, in my opinion. Proteus (Talk) 22:35, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The advantage of the parenthetical is piping. And I'm not sure why John (King of England) is particularly more unwieldy than King John of England. The former format is closer to the way other encyclopedias do things, in that what it means is that the title of the article is "John," which is what it should be. john k 15:22, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Well I suppose by "unwieldy" I meant "not particularly user-friendly" or "unattractive at first glance". What we've tried to do in the past with titles is find a form that might be quite long but is quite natural-looking and reduces the chance of disambiguation being necessary (which obviously results from a basic assumption that overt disambiguation (like parentheses) should normally be avoided if another alternative is available). Hence Robert Gascoyne-Cecil, 3rd Marquess of Salisbury — the Henry IV (England) suggestion strikes me as similar to saying "we really want to link to Lord Salisbury, so lets put him at Lord Salisbury (Prime Minister), Lord Salisbury (3rd Marquess) or Lord Salisbury (1830-1903) and then use the pipe trick whenever we link to him", which, though obviously a somewhat reasonable suggestion, is one we have rejected at a pretty fundamental level on previous occasions in this area. Also, I'd query your assumption that "John" is the natural title of the article, and so should be the automatic starting point: I'd say he's usually called "King John" (which, if these guidelines didn't exist, would then be the normal place for his article to be), and that "King John" is just as much his name as "John" is (obviously his actual name was "John, by the Grace of God, King of England, Lord of Ireland, Duke of Normandy and Aquitaine and Count of Anjou", but that's hardly a useful article title). I also think that calling him plain "John" is something that would never happen out of context. Obviously if one were talking about English Kings, "John reigned after Richard I" is quite natural, but I don't think anyone would suggest that something like "people born in Oxfordshire include Gary Glitter, Dorothy L. Sayers and John" would be reasonable. "John" might be the correct name if this were a genealogical database, which the current rules would seem to apply more to, but we should, I feel, be more concerned with helping our readers understand what's going on with the minimum of fuss. In many cases, who or what an article concerns is not at all obvious under the current rules, which is something I feel we should address. One more point (last one, I promise): if we adopted an approach similar to mine, we could reduce the basic naming conventions to a very simple rule: if the title-holder is numbered, use "Rank Name Numeral of Place"; if the title is numbered, use "Name, Numeral Rank of Place". All this "was so-and-so a Sovereign" debate could then be rather firmly be knocked on the head. Proteus (Talk) 22:35, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Proteus is obviously correct. It is very POV to de-King poor John. - Kittybrewster 22:55, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It's true, there's not a problem with what to call kings of England after 1066. There's not a problem with what to call people who held a British/English/Scottish/Irish peerage that can be looked up in some dreary old book to find out whether they were the Nth or the N+1th Earl of Whatever. But those are a tiny minority of articles to which this guideline is presumed to apply. It also applies to the people on Louis of France (disambiguation), which isn't very consistent (and Charles of France (disambiguation), Edward of England (disambiguation) or David of Scotland (disambiguation) might not be all that great either, had anyone written them). The further from England you get, the more difficult it is to apply the existing guidelines. Stefan Batory is not Stephen I of Poland; Stefan Dušan or Stefan Uroš IV Dušan would be better than Stefan Uroš IV Dušan of Serbia, being as how he didn't rule Serbia, which is in turn better than Stephen VII of Serbia (or whatever the exact number would be), and so on ad nauseam. As for the stylistic issue, pipes work both ways and redirects should exist from any and all plausible places. Angus McLellan (Talk) 00:01, 24 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Proteus, when I say "John" is the natural title, what I mean is that this is the title that he would have in an ordinary paper encyclopedia that didn't need to have all its articles have different titles. The peerage convention that we have pretty much matches the way that most encyclopedias title their articles on peers. Our convention on monarchs does not. A normal encyclopedia would have an article "John" on John of England, another article "John" on John of Bohemia, another article "John" on John of Saxony, an article "John II" on John II of France, and so forth. By "natural title" I don't generally mean "how you would naturally refer to someone," but "how an encyclopedia would naturally title an article on someone." john k 00:08, 24 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
But we've never let "what would other encyclopaedias do?" influence our decisions very much. A normal paper encyclopaedia is very limited by the fact that everything has to be in a very obvious alphabetical order, and so they don't really have any choice but to put King John at "John" (they can hardly alphabetise all Kings under "King"). We don't have that problem (and in those bits of Wikipedia that are in alphabetical order, like categories, we get to choose how each article is alphabetised), so the "article names must start with a name" rule that paper encyclopaedias must stick to is the least of our concerns. We should really be taking advantage of Wikipedia's electronic format, not ignoring it. Proteus (Talk) 08:23, 24 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
We don't have that particular problem, but the way wikipedia names articles is not simply a result of that. It is also a result of certain limitations wikipedia has that a conventional encyclopedia does not, foremost among them the problem that an article's title and an article's location must be identical, so that we can't have articles with the same title. I think this is much more responsible for the issue than any alphabetization. If Britannica, et al, thought that alphabetical order was the only reason not to have the article at "King John," then the article would be at "John, King." It is not. It is at "John." This is how reference works generally refer to monarchs - name and, if necessary, ordinal. Sometimes they include a byname, or a surname or a "of Placeoforigin" (e.g. Philip of Swabia). They never include "King," and they never include "of Country." john k 17:16, 24 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
A couple of software changes would really help with these things. Most notably, it would be nice if the location of a page and the title of a page could be different, so that multiple pages couuld have the same title without being in the same location. That way you could have a ton of different articles titled (at the head of the article) Henry IV, without all of them being at the location Henry IV. Another nice change would be if text could be piped in categories, so that all category pages wouldn't be stuck at whatever location the page is at. john k 15:25, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Please don't let's rush into any changes in the naming of monarchs. It took us a long time and lots of discussion to get to the point we are at today. The present format has been in use for at least 3 years and people have had time to get used to it. Deb 16:24, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
And yet I have done hundreds of edits a month fixing wikilinks to monarchial dab pages, and I'm not the only one doing it. Likewise, we are apparently missing a great many obvious redirects and disambiguation pages since I created a dozen or more yesterday that seemed that way to me. There's not much room for complacency regarding the current state of affairs. Angus McLellan (Talk) 17:01, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It seems to me that part of what might be in order is a good, active wikiproject on European royalty that tries to deal with these things in some kind of systematic way. Some sort of task force to create appropriate disambiguation pages and redirects would be tremendously useful. An effort to create genuinely decent stubs (and there is such a thing) on as many royal figures as we possibly can would also be useful, especially if combined with mass creations of appropriate redirects and disambiguation pages. Part of the problem with royals is that it's so damned hard to find the article one is looking for, that one is never completely sure if there's already an article lurking somewhere out there, that one just can't find. john k 17:57, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think the current "X of Y" should be dropped as the main guideline because in most cases it gives a) a clear and unambigius name b) a fairly predictable result and c) a nicely readable title. The problem is that people follow the rules on this page too narrowly without consulting the more general guidlines, first and foremost Use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things. Fornadan (t) 17:21, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think the biggest problem is that it's often not at all clear either what the most common name is or where this convention thinks a person should be located. I noted about King Karl I of Württemberg. I have no idea whether he should be at "Charles I", "Charles", "Karl I", or "Karl". So far, the only source I've been able to discover is the 1891 obituary of him in the New York Times, which calls him "Karl I" (compare to their obituary of William III of the Netherlands a year earlier, who is distinctly "William III"), and the 1911 Britannica, which, by contrast, calls him "Charles I". To go further, there's any number of instances with princesses where the current stands are just entirely unclear and the name is unclear, leaving dozens of possible redirect/disambiguation pages to make things clear. It's a mess, largely because a) different forms of names are used; b) it's hard to find references to a lot of these people; and c) the naming standards are completely unclear, so even when we know all the relevant information, it's still not very clear where articles are supposed to go. john k 18:06, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The present arrangement (Charles I of Württemberg, but Karl in the first line) seems reasonable. Let me see if I can find sources. Septentrionalis 19:05, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Lord Alfred Douglas

Could someone familiar with these standards please take a look at Lord Alfred Douglas? As I've remarked at Talk:Lord Alfred Douglas#Name, I believe that someone went a bit overboard here. - Jmabel | Talk 05:54, 24 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Guidelines: recent history

Just so that it's all in one place, for anyone interested in the discussions of potential new guidelines, here are some relevant recent naming debates and fiascos.

Do the current guidelines have broad support ? Are they working ? Angus McLellan (Talk) 10:15, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yup, it's all quite a mess. Another issue is old James VI and I, who is at the title James I of England, which is guaranteed to periodically attract the attention of an annoyed Scottish person who wants to move it. To say nothing of the irritated people from Basse-Navarre who periodically complain about Henry IV of France...oh, wait, that doesn't actually happen. Nonetheless, the current system is very irritating. I'm thinking of trying to work out new proposed guidelines. john k 16:11, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'd be for adding a rule to the naming convention, that Kings of England before William I of England do not get ordinals. For no other reason than the Victorians chose to do it that way and it messes up the later Edwards (Edward I of England etc) --Philip Baird Shearer 16:30, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
What do we do about Ethelred I and Edmund I, though? They don't have any other names that I'm aware of. john k 16:46, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Edmund and Ethelred are indexed as kings of Wessex in Stenton's Anglo-Saxon England. Numbers are used for kings of Wessex/Mercia/Northumbria, so no problem there if only WP didn't have English kings starting with Alfred [*cough*]. For Kings before the Conquest Stenton has Athelstan and kings from Edgar onwards not qualified as "of Wessex". Angus McLellan (Talk) 19:06, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've added a user subpage User:John Kenney/Naming conventions (names and titles), where I've tried to revise the rules in the direction I'd want to go. It still feels very awkward, though. I've also tried to add a section describing proposed naming rules for the Romanovs. john k 16:51, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Naming conventions for abolished titles - Vittorio Emanuele, Prince of Naples

You may find the discussion here - Talk:Vittorio Emanuele, Prince of Naples under the heading "Titular" interesting. Also, in the archive for that talk page there is also similar discussion on naming conventions. The issue is whether or not titles which have been abolished in the relevant legal jurisdiction should still be attributed to claimants as settled fact, or whether instead the name of the person should be used with the word "titular" before the abolished title. Cheers --SandyDancer 12:01, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Question - the guidelines on this page deal with what to call deposed monarches (living or deceased) but the guidelines on other royals do not deal with those who would have non-monarchical royal titles but for the abolition of the monarchy to which the individual was connected. What is the view? --SandyDancer 13:47, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Titular is used for the highest title the person may claim. For instance, George Frederick, Prince of Prussia (Titular German Emperor, King of Prussia and Grand Duke of Mecklenburg) or Ernest Augustus, Prince of Hanover (Titular King of Hanover). Simple as that. Charles 18:11, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe so (although I must say I am unconvinced as to the validity of your statement). Our discussion has now moved on from this. I accept that prefixing the defunct title of a living ex-royal with "titular" may not be the best of way of representing the real situation. Simply asserting a living person is, in this case, Prince of Naples, where clearly that person is not, is silly. --SandyDancer 18:21, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
He was Prince of Naples, and by courtesy, members of no longer ruling royal families are treated as continuing to have the titles they used to have when the monarchy was going. The head of the family and his heir may also take on a separate title of pretense, which will usually be a subordinate title formerly held by the head of the house (e.g. Duke of Braganza, or Margrave of Meissen or Count of Barcelona). Other, junior members born after the end of the royalty are generally treated, by courtesy, as having whatever title they would have had if the monarchy continued (in this case of the house of Savoy, that is "Prince/ss N of Savoy"). Other members who held substantive noble titles generally continue to use them (e.g., the Duke of Aosta, until he started calling himself the "Duke of Savoy," a title which falls alongside "Margrave of Meissen," and the like). This is not usually recognized formally by the Republican governments involved (although occasionally it is - Portugal and France explicitly recognize their pretenders, and, in France at least, the titles they grant; in Germany, the titles of the former royals are officially treated as part of their name, but more or less formally recognized - I believe the eldest son of the late Prince of Leiningen was officially barred from taking the name "Fürst zu Leiningen" after his father died because his father had disinherited him), but these titles would be used in most other contexts. It is not our place to enforce republican formalities in preference to the way the person is actually addressed by the people he generally interacts with. john k 19:08, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

New RM at Talk:Jogaila

Especially as some editors are now saying that the previous move (from Wladyslaw II of Poland to Jogaila) sets a bad precedence and breakts this naming convention, I expect this voting and discussion may be of interest to readers of this page.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  19:29, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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