Talk:Mormon handcart pioneers

Featured article status?

Do you think it would be possible to get this article up to featured article status in time for the 150th anniversary of the rescue this October? I've not participated in a featured article nomination, so I would appreciate advice from those who are more experienced. BRMo 04:26, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I have not participated in one either, at least not in one that wasn't already featured, but I have submitted this article for peer review and as a GA nominee, so hopefully we can get more people to review it. We should try to get the LDS WikiProject behind this so we can put as much muscle into this as possible. BTW I found this on the Mormon collaboration page and I am pretty impressed with what you guys have done so far. --Lethargy 07:49, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Assessment of current status of article

As the primary author of this article, I'll give my assessment of the articles strengths and weaknesses, with a focus on what improvements need to be made to get this up to featured article status. Of course, others will see things that I can't see, so please add your own comments and critique.

Strengths:

• The article provides a fairly comprehensive treatment of the subject.
• It meets the WP standards of verifiability, neutral point of view, etc.
• The overall format of the article, use of references, notes, external links, and images all generally seem to meet WP standards.

I think the article could probably be successfully nominated as a "good" article without much additional effort.

Opportunities for improvement:

• The lead is adequate, but the prose needs to be made more compelling to be a featured article. I've looked at several featured articles, and a common characteristic is a very well-written lead section that draws that the reader into the article.
• Since a featured article will be read by many non-LDS readers who are completely unfamiliar with the story of the Mormon pioneers and the handcarts, we will need to add a bit of background (who were these Mormon pioneers? why were they emigrating to Utah? etc.) This needs to be done with care, since addressing topics like these can be where POV problems creep in. I think we want to keep this background section to a minimum, but it does need to be added.
• It will be very important to get feedback from non-LDS editors who are not knowledgeable about the handcart pioneers. They will help us identify issues that need elaboration.
• It would be nice to add a few more appropriate images. The images in the article now are simply ones I'd seen in other articles, but there are lots of handcart pioneer images on the Web. I will write to Lee Groberg (the filmmaker who is filming a PBS special on the rescue of the Willie and Martin companies) to see if he'd be willing to make available an image or two. I'd welcome your thoughts on other appropriate images that might strengthen the article.
• The footnotes could be strengthened if there were more diversity in the sources that are cited. I've cited Hafen and Hafen and Bartholomew and Arrington because those are the sources that I own and used, but it would be helpful if someone who owns Slaughter or Stegner could add specific citations to these sources (as well as adding any other significant references on the topic).
• The section on Legacy could be expanded. There are brief mentions of various activities, events, works of literature, etc., and some of these could be expanded to short paragraphs. Of course the main focus of the article should continue to be the history of the handcart companies, so we don't want the "Legacy" section to take over the article, but I do think this is a topic that is treated rather tersely in the current version.

Finally, since I've never been through a featured article review, I'd appreciate advice and suggestions from more experienced editors. Thanks. BRMo 13:40, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Can we work into the lead why they were migrating west? What do you think needs to be included in the resons? --Lethargy 21:04, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I took a stab at it. I also inserted a heading to begin working on some background information. --uriah923^(talk) 21:48, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I buried the new section: I'm pretty sure putting an empty section there isn't a good idea. But thanks for adding the persecution stuff, I really need to read up on the subject before I can add specific background information though, my knowledge is relatively basic, I pretty much know that the Death of Joseph Smith, Jr. was one of the factors. --Lethargy 21:56, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Journal of the Trail would be a useful source, I have 2 copies lying around somewhere that I can use to cite sources once I get around to it. Until then you may be able to get it at your library: ISBN 0966075501

Background

I added content for the background section, much of it borrowed from Mormon pioneer. The article is now giving a length warning, which is likely an issue for it to become featured. Keep an eye out for ways to trim it down. --uriah923^(talk) 22:14, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Lead work

IMO the lead section needs only one more thing: a mention of the reenactments that continue today (in other words, the legacy). I'd like to steal this from the Legacy section and add it to the lead:

Although fewer than 10 percent of the 1847–68 Latter-day Saint emigrants made the journey west using handcarts, the handcart pioneers have become an important symbol in LDS culture, representing the faithfulness, courage, determination, and sacrifice of the pioneer generation. The handcart treks were a familiar theme in 19th century Mormon folk music and handcart pioneers continue to be recognized and honored in events such as Pioneer Day, Church pageants, and similar commemorations. The handcart movement has been a theme in LDS fiction, such as Gerald Lund's historical novel, Fire of the Covenant, and Orson Scott Card's science-fiction short story, "West."

This requires rewriting what is currently in the legacy section, or finding another way of wording this so we avoid duplicating information. Any ideas how we can word this? --Lethargy 01:27, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I moved the paragraph and added a sentence to the Legacy section to replace it. --uriah923^(talk) 03:16, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Tables

I think it would make the page a lot more presentable if the listed information was table-ized. I don't have a lot of experience with tables other than the generic (and rather boring) wiki table, but if someone can find a nice table in another article, I'll implement it. --uriah923^(talk) 03:17, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I stuck in some tables. I think they look much better, and they bring the article to a proper length. I also changed the quotation, which I think looks better without the overbearing box. Thoughts? --uriah923^(talk) 15:17, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

From the brief look I took, it looks fine to me. --Lethargy 23:42, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree --Trödel 23:43, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Legacy & references

I added some quotes to support the legacy section, as well as provide a little diversity to the references. I also included "Ibid" where appropriate in the notes and made some other minor changes. How much more is needed for these two items on the checklist to be completed? --uriah923^(talk) 16:57, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I would like to see a paragraph or so each about handcart reenactments, Pioneer Day, and anything else dealing with the legacy. Not sure how hard it is to find references for the reenactments though... --Lethargy 06:32, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I've added a paragraph on handcart reenactments with some references. BRMo 12:56, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Images

A couple of weeks ago I emailed Lee Groberg (the PBS filmmaker who is working on a documentary on the handcart rescue) to ask for a photo or two, but he hasn't responded. Since then, I ran across a Web site by the photographer, Norman Bosworth, so I've written to him with a similar request. Another option would be to check with someone who has participated in a handcart reenactment to see if they would be willing to provide a photo. BRMo 03:29, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Film "Handcart (2002)"

I ran across this page Handcart (2002). I've never heard of the film, and from what's shown on the page, it isn't clear whether the film was ever completed and released. Does anyone know anything about it? BRMo 11:44, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Answering my own question, it must have been released, because there's a page on IMDB. Judging from the comments posted there, it must have been a stinker. BRMo 12:12, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

What next?

Other than reference diversification, it appears the "to-do list" has been completed. What's next? --uriah923^(talk) 15:48, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately the peer review hasn't gathered any responses, other than an automated one, so we may have to just review it ourselves and see if we can figure out areas that need improvement. It is still up as a good article candidate, so perhaps someone there will look it over and give us some pointers. In the mean time, we should make sure it is thoroughly copy-edited, see: Wikipedia:How to copy-edit. --Lethargy 19:58, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

GA Nom comments

I like what I see here. May I ask that the two sections early in the article without inline references be documented. With this done, I'd be happy to promote it. --CTSWyneken^(talk) 20:39, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Are you referring to the Background and Outfitting sections? --uriah923^(talk) 22:51, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, indeed. --CTSWyneken^(talk) 23:24, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Citations have now been added to the Background and Outfitting sections. BRMo 04:44, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

GA Nom Passed

Thank you! That does it for GA status. I've promoted the article. The only recommendation I'd have for the future is to review each of the sections for documentation. My rule of thumb is that, if the info appears more or less the same in different words is two or three serious sources, you need cite only one. If a paragraph is a summary of information gathered from one source, then one cite suffices. If information from another source is spliced in, add a cite for the second source and cite the first source again at the end of the next sentence. Good work, one and all, and good luck with the article! --CTSWyneken^(talk) 11:15, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Writings of William R. Palmer.

Recently an anon added a few paragraphs from "Writings of William R. Palmer." I am concerned that this may be copyrighted, so we need to work that out before we can use it. --Lethargy 02:36, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with your concern. The added text is very close to what is found on www.handcart.com--close enough that I'd worry about a copyright violation. Another source is www.webster-family.org, which provides a lengthier quotation and cites the original source as an article in The Instructor, May 1944. Another concern is that the added text presents a point of view that is supportive of the LDS leadership and thus may violate WP:NPOV. I think the material could be edited to avoid both the copyright concerns and the POV problems; I'm willing to try, though it will be a couple of days before I'll have time. If someone else would like to tackle it first, please go ahead. I'm wondering, though, whether the material on responsibility/blame for the tragedy perhaps should be a separate section or subsection, since it breaks the historical narrative. BRMo 04:29, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

"Emigrant" vs. "immigrant" or "migrant"

I'd like to clarify the use of the word "emigrant" in this article. The word "emigrate" has two (closely related) definitions. (Unfortunately, many dictionaries list only one or the other.) The most common meaning is "to leave one's country of residence for a new one." Several dictionaries observe that it means the same as "immigrate," except that "emigrate" describes the move relative to the country of departure, whereas "immigrate" describes the move relative to the destination country. A second meaning is to move from one country or region and settle in another. Webster's 1828 Dictionary gives the following example: "Inhabitants of New England emigrate to the Western States." This definition does not specifically identify the move with the region of departure; rather it focuses on people making a permanent, long-distance move. It can contrast with "migrate," which is often used for temporary moves. This second meaning is the one that was used historically in naming the "Emigrant Trail," "Emigration Canyon," etc., and is the meaning intended by historians who refer to the pioneers traveling to Utah as "emigrants," regardless of whether their journey began in the United States or Europe. I am reverting the recent edits back to "emigrant," which I believe is an appropriate term, one that is widely used by historians, and adds consistency to the article. BRMo 02:07, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for clearing that up. I was the one who changed a few instances of the word to "immigrate". I was under the impression that the second definition you referred to was the only one. However, it does keep the article more consistent, so I'm glad to know that now. Tom Stringham 02:16, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

End of collaboration

The official Mormon collaboration on this article has ended. Thank you for everyone's help. --uriah923^(talk) 19:04, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Front page nom

Do you think we should submit this article for "Today's Featured Article" at Wikipedia:Today's featured article/requests? --Lethargy 18:32, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I've already drafted a box; see User:BRMo/testpage. Before submitting it, I'd appreciate receiving any comments, suggestions, or edits. Also, I was unable to locate any instructions for constructing these boxes, so I just followed the format of other boxes on the page Wikipedia:Today's featured article/requests. If anyone has seen instructions, please let us know where to find them. BRMo 18:59, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

That is exactly why I didn't submit it myself. :-) Perhaps we should mention that on the talk page of the requests page? --Lethargy 19:04, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and submitted the box to Wikipedia:Today's featured article/requests. If you'd like to comment or make any edits, you can do so there. BRMo 03:53, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I also submitted this at Portal:Utah, suggesting that the lead section you submitted at TFA be used. See: Portal talk:Utah#Selected article --Lethargy 02:38, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Mormon handcart pioneers has been scheduled as Today's featured article/December 14, 2006. BRMo 03:10, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

That's great!! As a reminder, the day featured articles appear on the main page, they are usually vandalized freqently. The type of subtle vandalism that religion articles sometimes attract needs those familiar with the subject matter to review and correct these edits. So if everyone could make themselves available on the 14th to help watch the article, it would be appreciated. --Trödel 12:06, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I would advise getting an admin to protect this page starting on the 14th, and ending 4 days later, when it is all the way off the front page. This article will really be prone to a lot of vandalism, I fear. And nice job getting this to the front page. You guys really did a great job!!-Hairchrm 00:51, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Front page articles are not protected for several reasons see Wikipedia:Don't protect Main Page featured articles. In addition to those reasons I think it is important for the high profile articles to remain editable as evidence that we believe in the policies that we espouse... the encyclopedia that anyone can edit. --Trödel 02:17, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Have you read the Wikipedia Protection Policy page? It states :"A permanent or semi-permanent protection is used for: Protecting high visibility pages such as the Main Page from vandalism." While this is not as visible as the main page, it will probably be the second most visited page that day (besides the search page). Also, given the nature of the article, I would lean towards having it protected. Any thoughts from anyone else?-Hairchrm 03:34, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

As long as someone is on hand to protect it at the first sign of persistent abuse, I don't see a reason to preemptively protect it. uriah923^(talk) 18:52, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes - if the anonymous vandalism gets too high it will be protected against IP and new users - but I very much doubt it will be fully protected. I know I wouldn't protect it. Agree with Uriah - the best defense is to be on hand to help identify edits and welcome new users. --Trödel 21:07, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Graffiti Removal

There is at least one (if not more, i need to finish reading), unbiased opinionated statement(s) in the article, this is clearly graffiti. (Example: the MORMONS RULE!!! comment which wasn't even formatted right) I've removed this from the article and believe it should be locked to prevent further edits of such matter. -DewDude 00:57, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia's bot caught it before I did. -DewDude 01:01, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

No need to discuss stuff like that on the talk page - go ahead and be bold and delete vandalism immediately!--Dmz5 01:14, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Talk of disaster

There is talk of how the Martin and Willy handcart companies experienced practical disaster, but I think mention should be made of the fact that none of the survivors of the two companies left the LDS church, not a one of them. I know I've seen a citation for this and will find it soon.--LWF 01:02, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

At least one prominent member of the Willie Company left the LDS church -- John Chislett, who was a sub-captain (responsible for about 100 persons in the company) and wrote an oft-quoted history of the trek. BRMo 04:10, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, I'll need to check my source again. I hadn't heard that.--LWF 04:22, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

My impression, however, is that the vast majority of the emigrants did remain in the LDS church. BRMo 04:28, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Intro needs to be fixed

This edit introduced grammar errors and problems to the intro - needs to be fixed. Sandy (Talk) 04:40, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Sandy. I think I've cleaned it up. BRMo 05:04, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Main page is really hard on articles :-) Best, Sandy (Talk) 05:23, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism

I removed all the templates for now until I figure out which one is being vandalized. Kelvinator 07:06, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok, finally got rid of that blasted picture. It was in the WikiProject Utah template. As a heads-up, if this page gets vandalized again, check the templates. Kelvinator 07:15, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Image summary credits

Please do not add credits to the summary of an image. It is irrelevant to the article who made the photos or where they're from, especially since they are from the Commons. Please use the image namespace for giving credit where credit is due; it really is not necessary to be in the article namespace. function msikma(user:UserPage, talk:TalkPage):Void 07:18, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Image copyright status

I question the copyright status of Image:PlattCrossing.jpg and Image:Man3.jpg. They both state that there is permission from the author to use this image (via e-mail). However, the e-mails are nowhere to be found. Whoever uploaded the images should have known that we explicitly require to have such information since an admin needs to be able to check the license. I think that it was a mistake to promote this article to featured status with such dubious images; perhaps this is why you added the author's name to the image summaries? It's very wrong to use an image "with permission" when that permission does not exist and likely included conditions that we should not satisfy (such as the condition of the author being credited; the GNU FDL does not require us to do it in article namespace, and thus we do not do that). Please fix this rationale as soon as possible, since this article is now on the main page and a bad example of Wikipedia procedures and standards. function msikma(user:UserPage, talk:TalkPage):Void 07:23, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

On August 8 2006 I forwarded the letter granting permission to permissions AT wikipedia DOT org for archiving and also posted notice of the permission at Wikipedia:Successful requests for permission. Wikipedia Permissions subsequently sent an email to Mr. Bosworth to confirm the license permission. I believe I followed all of the procedures described in Wikipedia:Example requests for permission. BRMo 12:42, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Featured Article Star?

Where is the FA star on the page of the article itself? it is mysteriously missing. b_cubed 07:32, 14 December 2006 (UTC)