Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera

Opera Composer of the Month Proposals A simple script will automatically replace the text on the front page with the appropriate month when the time comes. Here are the next three months. - Adam Cuerden talk [edit] Composer of the Month for August 2024 Click Here to set up August's Composer of the Month! [edit] Opera of the Month for August 2024 Click Here to set up August's Opera of the Month! Click here to show the September and October Opera and Composer of the Month preparation areas [edit] Composer of the Month for September 2024 Click Here to set up September's Composer of the Month! [edit] Opera of the Month for September 2024 Click Here to set up September's Opera of the Month! [edit] Composer of the Month for October 2024 Click Here to set up October's Composer of the Month! [edit] Opera of the Month for October 2024 Click Here to set up October's Opera of the Month!

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Composer of the month for June

Lots of progress with our French opera composers, so can we think about June?

Rossini is a obvious target, and some time ago we talked about re-furbishing Mozart as soon of his entries are quite poor. Other possibilities might be Joseph Haydn, Paul Hindemith, Marc-Antoine Charpentier, or Johann Strauss II or perhaps two or three neglected 18th century Italian composers like Cimarosa, Pergolesi, Gazzaniga, Galuppi, Salieri, Sarti etc. Any other possibilities? - Kleinzach 02:53, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I rather like the idea of doing Salieri. It has a certain glamour about it. He seems to have written enough operas to keep us busy for a month. Moreschi ^Talk 19:56, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Salieri, Sarti and Sacchini? --Kleinzach 23:47, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Another major one to bear in mind is Francesco Cavalli. I wouldn't recommend doing him next month, but some time in the near future. Salieri and Sacchini sound fine, though I have little info on Sarti. How about replacing him with Piccinni, another international Italian of that era? --Folantin 07:29, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

IMO Sarti and Salieri go together as a Mozart background pair. (Sarti's opera is quoted at the end of Don Giovanni). The Sarti bio page is quite good. Piccinni might be better off with with his Paris rival Sacchini. --Kleinzach 02:08, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Il pastor fido

I'd like to suggest moving Il pastor fido to "Il pastor fido (opera)", and then creating an article regarding the original play by Guarini at "Il pastor fido" (not sure if admin assistance would be needed to do this in place of the redirect that would be left by the move of the opera article). The play by Guarini is notable in its own right as a literary source or inspiration for many later works of art. (I would be interested in starting an article on it).

Alternative suggestions would be to create the article on the Guarini play as "Il pastor fido (play)", with a dab page at "Il pastor fido"; or keep "Il pastor fido" as the article on the opera, with dab link to "Il pastor fido (play)".

Thoughts? Thanks, Lini 14:12, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

You're right. Guarini's famous play should get priority at Il pastor fido with "Il pastor fido (opera)" for the musical work. --Folantin 09:19, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Somewhat off the topic of the WPOpera talk page, because it is a play not an opera, but, relevant to the discussion above, I've started a sandbox article on the Guarini play here; I will be adding more later before "promoting" to main article space. --Lini 13:15, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Beijing opera up for FAC

Hello, I have been improving the article Beijing opera over the last couple of months, and recently put it up at FAC. I realize that Beijing opera isn't really opera in the Western sense. Nonetheless, if anyone wishes to improve the article, feel free, and feel free to comment on it at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Beijing opera.--Danaman5 06:15, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

See comment on Beijing opera page. --Kleinzach 10:56, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Category:Opera ballet

We have an ambiguous Category:Opera ballet containing two Rameau items, plus Puccini's Le Villi. We also have a viable article on Opéra-ballet. Should we change the name of the category to match the article and clarify its definition?

If so, can we use the plural form opéras-ballets? I realize that some people may disagree with this, but this is the form used by Grove and the French WP article on Opéra-ballet. --Kleinzach 01:43, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

This is evidently not controversial so I have created a new Category:Opéras-ballets and I will be putting the old one up for deletion. --Kleinzach 04:27, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Project mastheads (ours and others)

I notice that the opera project is missing from such pages as Richard Wagner and Traviata. What are the rules for inserting it? DO we have to have re-edited them or something?

I assume that the masthead should be inserted into Wieland Wagner as two of us have been updating it.

The Wieland article is rated as stub-class by Wikiproject biography(arts and entertainment). Do we get them to re-rate it? And Wieland hasn't been rated by project Germany, but brother Wolfgang has. Do we mention the article to them? -- Peter cohen 17:14, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi, Peter. As a member of WPBio (in addition to WPOpera), I've updated the Wieland article assessment, for WPBio, to B-class, as a follow-up to the work you've done on it. It is my understanding that a somewhat different assessment system is also "in the works" as part of the Opera project, for all Opera-related articles, including biographies. Nice to meet you, Lini 18:11, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

And to meet you. Thanks, Lini. -- Peter cohen 22:03, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Peter, you can insert the Opera Project banner on relevant pages as appropriate. We don't have any formal procedure but it's a good idea to put it in as it encourages discussion here if there are any problems.

Regarding assessment by the Wikiproject biography (arts and entertainment group or more commonly musician-work-group ), this has been almost entirely by bot, i.e. when a stub tag is found by the bot it is marked as stub class. (Actually I don't think the two work groups actually exist - I haven't been able to find any page or list for them). The activities of the bot - and by extension the Biography Project - have been controversial as you will see from other discussions here. This is no criticism of Lini who has put a lot of effort into trying to maintain communications between all concerned. --Kleinzach 00:36, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Then please see Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography/Arts and entertainment and Wikipedia:WikiProject Musicians. Both pages are actually linked to on the Biography projects sidebar, by the way, which is what I used to find them myself here. John Carter 22:29, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Opera title navigation boxes

Thanks to Whjayg for a terrific effort on developing GuillaumeTell's work on these. However I am wondering about our policy on red and black names. For example Template:Vivaldi operas lists 21 operas compared to 9 in the The opera corpus, and 5 in Grove. I wonder if some of these articles will ever be written? --Kleinzach 07:52, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Sigh. Probably not. Most should, I guess, be delinked. According to himself, he wrote 94, so perhaps we should count our blessings. Best, Moreschi ^Talk 11:23, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

There are “good” and “bad” leaving the red links in the articles or the navigation boxes. The good is, it will encourage people to find info to fill it in (to un-red the link). The bad is, if the “red” stays forever. ~ Jay 15:50, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd probably keep the red links, but check to see if the scores of those Vivaldi operas have survived. There is one record label (Naive, I think) which is trying to record all his extant operas, so it's possible a Vivaldi expert/fan will come along and fill in those missing articles. --Folantin 17:56, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Listing red-linked works from The opera corpus for which information exists in the usual sources is OK. However these boxes are for navigation (not for listing complete works which is done in the article itself) so perhaps it's better not to list black names or red-link items that were previously black. (I'll try and explain that in a different way if I am not making myself clear!)--Kleinzach 23:12, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I ahve removed all the red links from the navigation boxes. - Jay 04:48, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Numa (opera)

Has anyone got any proof of the existence of any such opera by Georges Bizet? In the Viking Guide it's not even listed among his uncompleted fragments. Either it's a hoax or someone has misinterpreted a Portuguese word as being a title or it's a garbled version of "Namouna", the poem by Musset that Bizet used for Djamileh. Could someone look in Grove? (And if you want a laugh, look at the version of the Numa page before the last edit.) I put a note on the Bizet Talk page but no replies there yet. --GuillaumeTell 16:42, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Difficult. It's listed on the French page and various internet pages, but not on the German and Spanish pages. Everyone seems to agree on the date 1871, but perhaps it all originated here? --Kleinzach 11:17, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Checking Grove, zilch. Nothing. I checked to see if this was a cantata or a song mislabeled, as well. It's either not by him or doesn't exist, full stop. This, the original version is also somewhat suspicious. Yet someone else, apparently, knew of this and judged that this was the second of three operas - great edit summary, GT, I almost fell off the chair laughing. So either a hoax, something so obscure Grove and Viking haven't heard of it - searching Grove for "Numa" gives nothing, either - or some crossed wires somewhere. Any takers? Either way, this should probably be deleted. Cheers, Moreschi ^Talk 11:38, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I've got no info on it either. I think GT's explanation about a confusion with Musset's Namouna is plausible. I did think it might have something to do with Daudet's novel Numa Roumestan. After all, Bizet wrote the music for Daudet's play L'Arlésienne. But the novel wasn't published until 1881, when Bizet had been dead for six years. It might crop up in a Bizet biography somewhere, but let's face it, even if it exists this piece is so obscure it's doubtful whether it could stretch to a full, separate article. Put it up for deletion (without prejudice to recreation). --Folantin 12:26, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Please see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Numa (opera). Cheers, Moreschi ^Talk 13:39, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Category:Satirical opera

This is the last of the opera genres to remain as a singular. We need to decide whether to make it a plural (Satirical operas) or delete it. At the moment the category has three Kurt Weill items, one Prokofiev and one Shostakovich. It's really a subject-matter genre rather than a stylistic one, but at least it's reasonably well defined and might even support an article. So keep or delete? --Kleinzach 12:47, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Get rid of it per Kleinzach. --Folantin 08:25, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

I think subject-matter genres are just too subjective, and this one could also reasonably include a lot of G&S, Offenbach, The Golden Cockerel and who knows what else (Capriccio - a satire on opera?). Stick to composers'/librettists' designations and delete this category. --GuillaumeTell 15:38, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I have put it up for deletion here. --Kleinzach 23:25, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Offenbach

Is anyone working on the Composer of the Month project this month? It appears that poor Jacques is quite neglected here on the English Wikipedia. I worked on a couple of the articles, but most of the info available is in French. No French speakers interested? -- Ssilvers 13:12, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

We have more Offenbach articles up than the French Wikipedia. There has been substantial work done on Offenbach in the last six weeks. Many of the articles are new. Much remains to be done, particularly adding synopses. --Kleinzach 14:09, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I certainly did not mean to criticize Kleinzach, who has been very productive, adding information to every article on Offenbach operettas and starting some new ones at the end of March and in the beginning of April. However, only G. Tell and I have participated in this project with him thus far (and Jay -- see below), and April is nearly over. Notwithstanding that French WP's offering of Offenbach is even weaker than EN WP's, Offenbach wrote dozens of successful operettas, and we only describe a small percentage. So, what I am saying, is, how can we rally the troops to this effort? Should we extend this Composer of the Month effort to May? Just asking. -- Ssilvers 22:09, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

We have composers for May already decided. I'd also caution against starting stubs without basic information, though I'd guess there are four or five other titles which would be viable. (We have already covered all the works with articles in Grove.) What we really need is for people to sit down and listen to the works already stubbed (with the libretti!) and write synopses. Illlustrations as ever are needed, information about recent productions and recordings as well. --Kleinzach 23:43, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, I am working on Offenbach list of opera right now - gathering some info like opera year + type of opera such as bouffe or comique or Comédie à ariettes and the number of acts. I will add them later (arrange by year). Probably, I will add on the librettists too. I am not sure what is the suitable format, but I been thinking to do like below:-

• La Chanson de Fortunio (The Song of Fortunio) - (1861) Opéra-comique in one act, Libretto by Hector Crémieux and Ludovic Halévy.
• Monsieur Choufleuri restera chez lui (1861) - Opéra-bouffe in one act, Libretto by M. de Saint Rémy, E. L’Epine, Hector Crémieux and Ludovic Halévy
• Le Soldat magicien (The Regiment Magician) - (1864) Opéra-comique in one act, Libretto by Charles Nuitter and Etienne Tréfeu

By the way, about the list of work in Offenbach page, I am just curious. Are those list of his opera or including others such as his music works (which have got nothing to do with opera)? - whjayg (Jay) 15:27, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Is this for the biography page? Are you using the table in Grove or the websites? (BTW we don't use the sytem of capitalizing the second word, it's La chanson not La Chanson). --Kleinzach 23:43, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

The list of "Works" in the Jacques Offenbach article appears to list just the operettas (and Tales), so maybe we should change the heading? Note that the third work you list above is shown as Le fifre enchanté, ou Le soldat magicien. It would definitely be helpful to put a date next to each. Personally, I agree that it would be good to give the number of acts, genre and librettist information, just the way you suggest. -- Ssilvers 22:09, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd recommend adding any missing works. I compiled the original list some time ago (a lot of typing!). It probably needs checking! However I don't think it's necessary to duplicate information that is in the individual articles. --Kleinzach 23:43, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Just a note to say that I had been hoping to be able to add synopses of Madame Favart and Barbe-bleue, because I've seen them both on stage and had kept the programmes. However, now that I've finally rooted out the programmes (from 1968 and 1969 respectively), I find that neither has a synopsis, as was not uncommon back in those days. For Barbe-bleue, I can paraphrase the Viking synopsis for now, and fill it out after the Buxton Festival performance. Alas, for Mme F, all I could do was improve the list of roles and add the list of numbers from Internet sources - frustrating, because I can remember a certain amount of the plot (and even a couple of the tunes) from the Durham University Light Opera Society's production. I'll also be able to do a bit more with La Périchole in due course. --GuillaumeTell 00:20, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I have completed the compilation of Offenbach’s opera - not 100%, it is darn hard to gather info about him. But from sources (internet and old “opera” bible belong to my dad-dug out from his garage), I believe the list of work listed in Offenbach biography (under “Works” ) are mixed – opera, ballet, orchestra and other music works. I do not want to amend or delete them (except if they are repeated with my list in “List of opera” ). Feel free to correct me if I am wrong or if the format is not right, it is really a big work since Offenbach info are not as easy to find compared to Verdi/Puccini/Handel (My favorite composers) But one thing for sure is, some of the titles in my list and “works” are the same, it’s just that some were written in different language (French / German). - Jay 04:50, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I am not sure I understand. The complete list of stage works on the Offenbach page is from Grove. This is authoritative. Are you proposing to move half of it to the navigation box? I'd recommend keeping the complete list complete, or completing it if it is not. I'd also suggest keeping the navigation box for navigating. Or have I misunderstood? (If you don't have Grove a lot of good information is available from the websites linked from the biography page.) -- Kleinzach 05:08, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I am not talking about the navigation box. I was talking about the list the biography under in the "Work". Pls refer to Offenbach page - List of Opera, i just updated it. - Jay 05:12, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Ah I see you have started a new list above the old one. I was confused. But can you please not use Boosey and Hawkes capitalization! We use Grove. We don't capitalize the second word in the title. Also you will find Les folies Offenbach better for info than Boosey which is a commercial site.--Kleinzach 05:32, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I can change that, give me some time. I am actully doing translation works for wiki ms opera page too (by myself :( ,I dont have anybody in wiki ms volunteer to help ). - Jay 05:41, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I have made some corrections, also added dates etc. Hope this helps. Your new list is very worthwhile and I applaud your courage in starting it, but I think it's difficult to do it accurately without using Andrew Lamb's table in Grove. --Kleinzach

Thanks for doing the editing for me; I was just finished translating “Falstaff” and “Un ballo in maschera” to Wiki ms and I thought I want to edit “The opera list”, but you have done it. I know about the “Grove online”, but I am not a subscriber. Probably I will buy the dictionary, someday - after finish buying all Domingo's opera DVDs (planned to have my own library of Domingo's books, CD and DVD) - Jay 07:43, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

That is a great addition, Jay. I imagine more of the librettists could be blue-linked. Best regards, -- Ssilvers 12:50, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Please be aware of some subtle vandalism on this page - number of acts etc. being changed in the list of works etc. Please revert if it seems the page has been tampered with.

On another matter can anyone confirm the items listed in 'Other works'? Are they genuine? It would be better to avoid another 'Numa'. --Kleinzach 00:37, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

I have added Offenbach's opera navigation box (only the blue links). Also added Meyerbeer and Gluck. No more red links. - Jay 05:27, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Giulio Cesare

I know this is a bit off topic but I need a favor from those who could help. I have been looking for “Giulio Cesare” opera DVD acted by Plácido Domingo as “Sesto”. I don’t know the performance year or the theater but one thing for sure is, Plácido Domingo at that time was very young. If anybody know where I could get the DVD, please let me know. I asked here because I just don’t what else to do and how to get it, sometimes I been thinking, the play was probably never been recorded. - Jay 03:22, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I have had a look but can't find anything. Incidentally if you do find information about recordings/DVDs the article Giulio Cesare could certainly benefit from a recordings section. --Kleinzach 23:41, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

I think (hopefully I am wrong) I know why I couldn’t find the DVD. From the record, it says that he sang "Svegliatevi nel core" based on studio recording in 1968 (Wembley Town Hall, London, England) accompanied by Royal Philharmonic Orchestra. - Jay 06:42, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for adding the recording details. That's useful. I see you have also started Svegliatevi_nel_core. Actually we have a policy of putting texts such as this on WikiSource, not on WP. --Kleinzach 23:12, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Policy on biography infoboxes

In view of recent problems, I am wondering if we should have a policy on biography infoboxes - to be included on the main project page.

Here is a possible wording:

New infoboxes: We hope all new infoboxes will be proposed and discussed on the project talk page, before being added to individual pages. We deplore the use of generic infoboxes that contain factual errors and ambiguities, because they have not been designed with opera articles in mind.

Do you agree with this? Is the wording OK or should it be changed in any way? Thanks --Kleinzach 14:02, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Although I'd add a final sentence to make it quite clear: Remember: factual accuracy is essential, infoboxes aren't. --Folantin 14:10, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Looks good to me. Mak (talk) 03:51, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Yep. The original with Folantin's addition looks fine. Cheers, Moreschi ^Talk 14:44, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes. With the additional bit by Folantin. Nice job. Antandrus (talk) 14:47, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. This is now Item 16 on the Project page. --Kleinzach 15:41, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Romantic operas again

Now that this category has been zapped, can we agree a substitute (German romantic operas or Romantischen Opern - but are German-language category names permissible in en.Wikipedia?)? I'll be happy to define it and add it to those opera articles that are entitled to it (and patrol it from time to time!) --GuillaumeTell 17:50, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

I think "German Romantic operas" would be fine. It is a specific category and many operas, such as mid-period Wagner, were actually called by that name by their composers. --Folantin 19:09, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I think calling it Romantischen Opern would be in line with using French names for French genres, and perhaps be more specific (less likely to catch 20th century works), but German Romantic (big R?) operas would be OK if you both prefer that. Can I refer you both to Satirical Operas (above)? I'd be grateful for your ideas. --Kleinzach 23:33, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Big R for the artistic movement. --Folantin 08:24, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

On reflection, having it in German might be more likely to keep out interlopers. --GuillaumeTell 15:42, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Good. That was my feeling too. And it would be consistent with our idea of using original designations to keep everything crystal clear. --Kleinzach 23:04, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

I've now created Category:Romantischen Opern and populated it. --GuillaumeTell 10:30, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

No, it should be in English, like the rest of this Wiki. Andy Mabbett 12:01, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, then opéra comique should be "comic opera"? --Folantin 12:16, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Anybody here able to tell the difference between Spanish and Portuguese?

In Wieland Wagner I have referenced a page [1] which I thought was Spanish, but I'd like to check. Peter cohen 22:55, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it's in Spanish.  :) Antandrus (talk) 22:57, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Spanish. --Kleinzach 22:59, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Crikey! That was quick. Thanks, both. Peter cohen 23:02, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Opera characters

Is there a view on having entries for characters? With title charaqcters, you can reference the opera; with parts such as Hagen it is possible to reference the mythic or historic characters on which the part is based; but what about Eva or Elisabeth? Peter cohen 23:01, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

We have quite a strong policy on not having articles on characters. In fact they have been deleted in the past. We prefer to discuss Iago, say, in the Otello article, not outside it. For the same reason we prefer not to have articles on individual arias, sections of operas etc. --Kleinzach 23:08, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

That would explain the rather eccentric list in the arias category. Peter cohen 23:18, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Category:Sacred operas

Following Satirical operas, can we delete this one as well? It only has two items. --Kleinzach 23:29, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

As the editor who created the category, my opininon: 1) I would not be offended if it was deleted if it does not fit the overall categorization scheme. 2 ) Some background to assist in considering the question - a) I think I may have gotten the term from a book by Grout which I do not currently have in my possession, but I'm not sure. b) Sant'Alessio is a type of opera that was a descendant of an earlier artistic form, the "sacred drama" c) The composer and librettist may not have termed it as any kind of opera, because I'm not sure if the term was in use then (1630) (Someone else might be able to check for sure on that if it matters). d) Would we have an alternative classification by genre for Sant'Alessio? Does each opera article require at least one classification by genre?

That's all from me; happy to have people giving careful consideration to good categories, Cheers, Lini 00:20, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. First of all, the operas don't all have genre cats, though it is helpful to put them in when appropriate. In the past we had a lot of genres which were translations of foreign terms that lost specificity. We've been weeding these out and replacig them with unambiguous (often foreign-language) terms, e.g. opera ballet become opéra-ballet etc. As for Sant'Alessio, Grove decribes this as a Dramma musicale. Was that was the designation Landi himself used? Does anybody know? --Kleinzach 02:00, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

New Oxford History of Music also uses the term dramma musicale, although not specifically ascribing it to Landi himself.

So, I believe I'm beginning to catch on to this ("I see," said the blind man, as he picked up his hammer and saw...  :) The genre cats don't necessarily have to include the word opera in the name. This leads me to 2 things:

If after allowing additional time for further comments by other editors, there is agreement on deleting the Sacred Operas cat, I wonder if we could do it via speedy deletion; if I endorsed the deletion, as the creator of the category, and the only person to add the category to any article, and with the backing of the Opera project for the deletion? Lini 05:33, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Fine by me. --Kleinzach 05:42, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Category:Pastoral operas

Then, also, I wonder about my other "baby" :) the Pastoral Operas cat; I have seen other names used for the early 17th century works that would fall into this category, like pastoral tragi-comedy, dramma pastorale, or simply pastorale. But, one problem with those terms is that they can also be used for works other than operas, like Guarini's play, Il pastor fido, (a pastoral tragicomedy), for example. Thoughts? Thanks, Lini 05:33, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

(I have taken the liberty of making a new section - Hope that's OK.) Grove has a wide-ranging article on Pastoral (It. pastorale, Ger. Hirtenstück, Hirtenspiel, Schäferspiel etc.) by Geoffrey Chew - also on Pastorale-héroïque (a form of ballet-héroïque). Oxford has an entry on Pastorale which seems more limited. But this is not my field! --Kleinzach 05:58, 1 May 2007 (UTC)