User talk:Lsi john

Welcome to Wikipedia!!!

Hello Lsi john! Welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. If you decide that you need help, check out Wikipedia:Where to ask a question, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Please remember to sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. Below are some recommended guidelines to facilitate your involvement. Happy Editing! ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ Getting Started Wikipedia Tutorial How to edit a page The five pillars of Wikipedia Manual of Style Be bold in editing How to write a great article WikiProjects Getting your info out there Neutral Point of View Attribution Cite your sources Uploading images Image use policy Getting more Wikipedia rules Policy Library Getting Help New contributors' help page Where to ask a question Help Desk Frequently Asked Questions Getting along Wikiquette Civility Sign your posts Wikipedians Conflict resolution Getting technical Pages needing attention Peer review Utilities Village pump

≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:57, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Welcome from Ratagonia

Welcome!

Hello, Lsi John, and welcome to Wikipedia. Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay.

Here are some tips to help you get started:

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If you have any questions, see the help pages, ask a question at the village pump or ask me on my talk page. Again, welcome, and good luck! Ratagonia 05:40, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Ratagonia, thank you for your words of encouragement and welcome. I must admit that it is very disillusioning to see such biased articles on wikipedia. It's frustrating to make edits and have them reverted by someone with more power and knowledge of the workings of Wiki. To be honest, my opinion of wiki has dropped significantly based upon my experience so far with the fanatical anti-cult activists. The fact that they can write such biased articles and legitimize their pejorative labeling is sad. Its funny, yet also sad, that they are actually a cult themselves and don't even realize it. Lsi john 15:53, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, well. Nothing good persists on its own. It took me 6 months of studying wikipedia till I was up to speed enough to arm wrestle with these folks. And we seem to be getting a small squad of wikipedians cooperatively working to get some of these things (glacially slowly) into line. It's also good to go out and work on less contentious articles where you can just have fun and contribute without the wiki-stress. Ratagonia 01:38, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your input!

Thank you very much. If you look at my talk page, you can see that Smee is making some promises. I feel that it is appropriate that I give her the chance to make the necessary changes in her behavior. That is me and is not binding on you nor on anyone else. What I recommend that you do is edit in the articles that interest you to correct any problems that they might have (see WP:PILLARS) and let's see how she does. I will be doing the same at my end. If you need any help, just hollar. Thanks again and Happy Editing! --Justanother 14:26, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Smee

Smee, another member, and I are in mediation. A truce has been reached that was signed by all three parties. Any edit wars involving Smee may cease after that. Plese do not engage Smee, it may make it worse. If you continue to have problems with her let me know I will be glad to help out a newer member. Good luck John196920022001 21:59, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

• And please do not use inappropriate bull-baiting language like: "anti-cult articles", "You, and your anti-cult activists". Thanks. Smee 22:14, 2 April 2007 (UTC).

John196920022001, thank you. I'm far too new to understand all the nuances of editing wiki, but I'm learning. Though I have no desire to 'engage' her, I am a strong advocate of neutrality, fairness and technical accuracy. I have great difficulty accepting 'smoke and mirrors' as valid journalism and, for the sake of wiki and the public, will continue to edit articles with those concepts in mind. Best wishes to you as well. Lsi john 23:12, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

John, Smee is not typical by far of the editors here. Please do not judge the project by her example. Most editors here are happy to see others contribute to articles. Please carry on! --Justanother 01:08, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I'm sure I'll catch on to the procedures eventually. I'm not easily discouraged, though I must admit surprise that such biased and one sided editing has been allowed to continue. She'll allow websites like skeptic's dictionary and forum.rickross.com to be cited, when it illustrates her pov, yet she summarily deletes any entry which appears to be counter to her pov, and then labels her deletion as 'invalid' source. I understand why she does it, I don't understand why it is tollerated. Lsi john 01:30, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

It is only tolerated because she is just an extreme case of where a lot of people are at these days; I will not spell out more so as to not upset her needlessly. We live in a materialistic society that, as a culture, does not value spirituality. As individuals yes, and as protection for the indvidual's right of expression, usually; but our culture values the material, not the spiritual. And young people traditionally reject the religions of their parents; these days a lot of young are atheists and worse, especially on the 'net. And this is a volunteer website with a young demographic and admins here are pretty tired of all the petty bickering and tend to turn a blind eye so long as everyone is WP:CIVIL. Gotta be civil! It is up to you and I and like-minded editors (like-minded as in finding misuse of this project objectionable) to keep editors like Smee in check. That is all there is to it and it only takes a few of us to do it. --Justanother 01:42, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

advice

Word of advice, John. Statements like this "I request that you stop using this incendiary, non-factual language." are red herrings to draw you off your argument and into a different argument - one that is about you, not about the article. That is a hard-won lesson for me and one that I am still learning. Stay on point, phrase things however you care to just so long as you are WP:CIVIL, keep your attention on the article, and just ignore the fish. --Justanother 01:16, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Hopefully I have not given an indication of falling victim to any red herrings baiting. I think pov arguements, or dropping into personal debates with extremists, is a waste of time and counter productive. Two quotes come to mind.. "Arguing on the internet is just dumb. Even if you're right, you lose." and "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig".

I try to base all my communication in established and documented fact. If you should see me falling victim to baiting, just box my ears and I'll sit up straight and jump back on track. Thanks. Lsi john 01:43, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Better then that you babysit me! Good on!! --Justanother 02:17, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Category:Large Group Awareness Training

Please refrain from repeatedly undoing other people's edits, as you are doing in Category:Large Group Awareness Training. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia. The three-revert rule (3RR) prohibits making more than three reversions in a content dispute within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. Rather than reverting, please discuss disputed changes on the talk page. The revision you want is not going to be implemented by edit warring. Thank you. - Alison^☺ 18:23, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Guys - try to iron out your differences on the talk page first, please - Alison^☺ 18:24, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Alison, I _have_ been trying to take these to the talk page. Please look at the talk pages. Smee has been doing the reverting. If you look, I do an edit and smee reverts it.. I then go to the talk page. Smee ignores it. Lsi john 18:31, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

In fact, if you look closely, you will see that Smee follows me around and reverts virtually all of my edits. Lsi john 18:32, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Alison ~ HELP! ~ Smee is now re-adding (REVERTING) categories to articles which are not supported by cited sources within those articles. She clearly told me that doing this was POV PUSHING when she removed my categories to other articles. This is beyond reasonable and needs to stop. She makes up the rules as she goes along and applies them as she sees fit. Lsi john 19:02, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

• Lsi john, please calm down, take a breather, and relax. Please stop your usage of CAPS and exclamation points. The categories added were backed up by citations from the list article. Smee 19:05, 9 April 2007 (UTC).
• Ok - John, can you specify exactly what your issues with this particular category are on its talk page? Just spell out what the issues are as you see them. From that, Smee will have something to work with and can address the points you make. Right now, that's the best approach 'coz revert-warring on the category won't get either of you anywhere. I'll help out where I can so let's see where this goes ... - Alison^☺ 19:22, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Alison, thank you.

I have been informed by Smee that 'reliable published sources' must be used within any article before any claims or statements can be made within that article.

I have also been told by Smee that you cannot use another wiki article as a cited source; that wiki does not qualify as reliable published source.

1) Mind Dynamics - has no 'cited' sources in the article at all. Yet smee has tagged it as LGAT category.

2) PSI World - has no 'cited' sources in the article at all. Yet Smee has tagged it as LGAT category.

This seems to suggest that Smee has concluded that those two companies are LGAT and that would be POV, correct?

3) List of Large Group Awareness Training organizations - lists Large Group Awareness Training in the first statement and also has See also: Large Group Awareness Training .. Is this not redundant?

4) The List of Large Group Awareness Training organizations, uses http://perso.orange.fr/eldon.braun/awareness/ as a cited source to include numerous companies on this list. However, http://perso.orange.fr/eldon.braun/awareness/ is simply a page of LINKS and is NOT a reliable source and should not be used to include these organizations. Inclusion on this list should require a specific reliable source to be cited.

5) Large Group Awareness Training - this term is not scientifically or technically defined anywhere. It is defined by example by each author, depending on what they want to include in the group/term/definition. The term is used, almost exclusively, by anti-cult activists like Rick Ross. It is used as a pejorative term to label groups which have been targeted. It was used on several occasions by authors, to avoid using the term 'cult' and thus to avoid prosecution. A balanced article about this term would include the opposing viewpoint. Yet Smee fights any effort to either a) give a specific definition for the term or b) make the claim that the term is not scientifically defined nor used by the APA Clearly, for anyone who actually reads the articles and sources, the term is ill-defined at best, and undefined at worst. The reason it is on wiki is so that anti-cultist can label companies they have targeted. (This can easily be shown, by looking at who wrote the articles which are tagged LGAT and look at the history of the edits .. and look by #6 below, where smee decided that the article was of no value, once the LGAT references were removed).

6) Klemmer & Associates - edited by Smee from the very beginning, and tagged as an LGAT without ANY supporting evidence of this. On one hand Smee deletes entries she doesnt like, and cites the rules.. and then on articles like this, she adds categories based on her POV and/or allows them to remain. Now that she has been forced to stop adding the LGAT propaganda to the Klemmer article, she has tagged it as an advertisement. This goes to her POV character.

Every few days, she simply goes through my recent list of edits and reverts them, citing some rule as she POV applies it. Lsi john 19:44, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Alison, unfortunately, this is not a one-article issue. The entire subject is in dispute and most of the articles have been tagged as biased by one editor or another. When Smee is forced to concede something on one page, it has little or no effect on her actions on another page. When she does not like the way something is headed, she simply re-writes an entire section and forces her counterparts to start over with the corrections/edits disputes. (see history on Large Group Awareness Training where a discussion about the page was fully underway with several individuals and Smee simply re-wrote the entire top 3 or 4 paragraphs. Lsi john 19:53, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Alison, additionally, Mind Dynamics has several SEE ALSO references which are unsourced in the article. My understanding of SEE ALSO is that they are 'references' to related material. If these are valid referrals, then the List of Large Group Awareness Training organizations should have similar SEE ALSO references which Smee removes. Additionally, similar examples yield that List of Large Group Awareness Training organizations should be included in the anti-cult category, as both rick ross and margaret singer (both directly sourced in the article) are anti-cult individuals. Yet Smee says that anti-cult cannot be included here because it is included in the articles referenced. This is yet another example of the have-it-both-ways application of the rules I have been up against. Lsi john 20:24, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Alison, as an example, now that third party intervention has been requested, Smee has tagged the page List of Large Group Awareness Training organizations as undergoing major rewrite. There was no group concensus for this re-write and presumably there will be no collaboration on the re-write. Therefore, as cited in other places, Smee is apparently attempting to derail all disputes and force everyone to start over by rewriting the entire page. Lsi john 21:24, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

reverts / pov

The following began in an article talk page and drifted from specific content into a discussion about a pattern of behavior related to the user Smee.

Because it was more directly related to her overall pattern of reverting, I moved it from the specific article talk page to her talk page.

She subsequently removed it from her page.

I believe the pattern of behavior needs to be documented so that other users, who may also find their edits reverted, have additional documentation for this.

I have, therefore, restored the conversation/thread here.

---

(moved from article talk page by Lsi john 19:25, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Smee, I am as calm as someone being run over can be. You make no effort to assist me with edits, you simply delete or revert my edits and cite rules. Then you turn around and do exactly the same thing I did, on other pages. You are out of control and POV pushing and it is harmful to wiki. Lsi john 19:05, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Lsi john, clearly by this last comment it would be helpful if you took a small break to cool off. Please stop these violations of WP:NPA, and as it states there stick to commenting on content, not contributors. Thanks. Smee 19:07, 9 April 2007 (UTC).

Smee, you wait 2 or 3 days and then you come in and revert the majority of the edits I have made. You claim that my category addtions are POV and not supported by cited sources. Then you add categories to articles, with _no_ cited sources and claim that because the other 'referenced wiki articles' have sources, it qualifies for your category addition.

An elephant is in the category animal. A list of animals includes monkeys. By your reasoning, an elephant can be put in the category of monkeys. Lsi john 19:25, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

John - Smee has a point here. Rather than discussing her behaviour, etc, could you state clearly and concisely what's wrong with the category on its talk page please. As a neutral observer, I have no clue as to what this dispute is about. If both of you clarify your respective positions, maybe then you can work towards consensus as part of the process. Can I ask you to read over WP:DR first, though? - Alison^☺ 19:36, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Alison, at what point or after how many attempts, does it qualify to be about the person's behavior? If you would like, I will make a list of the related articles and talk pages. My edits/edit-tags and the discussion sections should clearly indicate that I have attempted to discuss and work with Smee. At the very minimum she knows the 'balance' I am attempting to bring to the entire series of articles. The rule you cited states: "When someone makes an edit you consider biased or inaccurate, improve the edit, rather than reverting it." Smee makes no attempt to 'help me' or 'improve the edit', she simply reverts and cites her pov of a rule. Only now that it has escalated has she decided to start discussing things (this pattern is also reflected in other complaints against her). She permits virtually none of my edits to remain and then, in other articles, does exactly what she declared I could not do.

If you are willing to be a third-party for the situation, I welcome your involvement. This entire series of articles needs to have a balance. Lsi john 20:18, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

---

Lsi john 20:45, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Your questions

It probably is best to watch for a bit before attempting to have a page deleted. We do not delete pages simply for being POV or poorly written, only if there's really no hope that a sourced article could ever be written on the subject. WP:DELETE goes into more detail on the deletion policy.

As you and Smee seem to be having a lot of disputes, across a lot of articles, you might find that mediation would serve well. If Smee is willing to mediate, you can request an informal mediator through Medcab, or formal mediation through the Mediation Committee. I would strongly encourage both of you to do so before this spirals out of hand and winds up at ArbCom instead.

As to recreations, if an article is deleted at AfD, it can be speedily deleted by any administrator if it is recreated. Editors who repeatedly recreate deleted material get blocked or banned, such behavior is considered disruptive.

Do keep in mind, that with controversial topics, we do note the controversy in their articles. The neutral point of view requires that we not take any side in the controversy, but instead simply note that it exists, what it entails, who it involves, and why.

Again, I would strongly encourage you to seek mediation, it often helps. Do remember to assume good faith, as well. Sometimes that's difficult, but always comment on content, not editors. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 22:03, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Of course there's no rule against rewriting! If you go down to the bottom of your edit window, you'll see the following:

"If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly or redistributed by others, do not submit it."

Now, of course, what is written must conform to our core policies such as WP:NPOV, WP:NOR, WP:ATT, and the like. That's true whether it's reworking what someone else wrote or writing something brand new. But anyone can edit any page any time, that's exactly how we do it! Again, if you and Smee can't come to agreement, I'd pretty strongly suggest you request mediation. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 22:25, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, it does work that way sometimes-but generally only for a short while. We're pretty good at picking out POV, on the whole. As to the Psi world bit, that will run for five days, and only Smee's commented so far. Most of my AfD nominations do go through, I do a pretty thorough check for sourcing before nominating anything, so it's not often someone finds something I missed. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 23:08, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

• (Crazy-busy right now. Sorry!) Have to concur with what Seraphimblade is saying here. May I suggest this be sent to WP:MEDCAB for mediation. Both editors have good points here but you, John, appear to be getting swamped in the rules and etiquette here. What's needed are a bunch of neutral observers who can help you through this and ensure that this is resolved for both of you. I can help with it but am a bit busy right now. - Alison^☺ 23:20, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
• Best start with mediation, John, is to look at the medcab stuff at some of the older and/or ongoing cases and get a feel for others' grievances and issues and how the process works in getting things resolved. User:Smee has already indicated that she will gladly follow the dispute resolution process, so that's a good start. Also, there are at least two admins looking on - Alison^☺ 23:22, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I see Alison's given you some good advice as well. As for yours, when I told you that anyone is allowed to edit a page, that includes you. If you think edits need to be made to that page, go ahead and make them! Alison stated that Smee is willing to enter mediation, so I would strongly advise you do so. If you're not comfortable making the request, I'll be happy to file a Medcab request on your behalf, if you would like. Just don't get frustrated or lose your cool, I realize it can be frustrating to see information you think (or even know) to be wrong, but this is still very much a work in progress (and usually, the other guy thinks he's just as right as you think you are). Things do get solved, believe me, I've seen it for myself. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 02:07, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Mediation is not a court case at all! Basically, it's just someone with more experience, that will help you and Smee talk out a resolution. Just tell your mediator your concerns, about being new here and such, they'll be happy to help you, and I can certainly give you advice as well. I know at first this can seem terribly confusing, and sometimes it is, but one of our core policies is to never look down on editors for being new. We have no interest in shutting you out or not addressing your concerns. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 02:21, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

But is it binding. Will it have any long lasting impact. Will it only resolve the specific issues? Will I be forced, next week, to return to mediation again for another paragraph on the same article or another article? Unfortunately, I see it as an endless cycle, sucking time and energy without an outcome. I could be wrong, and hope that I am, however that is my feeling based on my experience over the past couple weeks. Lsi john 02:25, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

No, it's not binding at all. Although often mediation will come to an agreement that all editors involved can agree to, it's a completely consensual process. You can leave the process or even disregard its results if you like (though that's often looked upon unfavorably in arbitration, which is binding and non-voluntary). Mediation is just a way for someone uninvolved to help you and Smee talk it out, and hopefully come to an agreement you can both live with. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 02:40, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

To add to the above-I've done mediation twice myself, and in both cases, a very satisfactory outcome was reached, and everyone involved respected the consensus the mediator helped us reach. So I do know something of what I'm talking about. :) Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 02:43, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Without knowing your situation, I cannot know if the topic was as polarized as this one is. While I would like to assume good-faith, I have not seen any evidence of this. Perhaps I am just cynical, but I suspect that arbitration would be a better path. If I am going to invest the time, I would prefer that the outcome be binding on both parties. She has shown no desire and made no effort to help me thus far and her own comments indicate fairly clearly her position on the issues. I'm willing to follow whatever path you recommend, though her history suggests anything short of 'enforcable' will be unsuccessful. If she were truly willing to write an unbiased article, she would handle herself and her edits completely differently. I'm not trying to remove her work, nor her articles (though I don't feel they POV they represent belong on wiki), I am trying to balance them fairly and I am not equipt to do battle against her knowledge of the rules and her ability to dance around them. Lsi john 02:50, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

ArbCom will just tell you to try mediation first anyway. But if you reach an outcome you agree to in mediation, and someone ignores that, they'll look very unfavorably upon that. And we don't go for following the letter of a rule while violating its spirit either. Arbitration only concentrates on conduct, they will refuse to decide upon content issues. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 02:53, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Mediation it is then. Lsi john 03:04, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I've filed the request here. The mediator will contact you and Smee when they're ready to begin. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 03:20, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

(outdent) I added some of the articles under dispute. Will look on and see what I can do. SB: I'm not totally au fait with medcab :) - Alison^☺ 03:30, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Help

Hi. I am willing to help you in a kinda mentoring way, if you don't mind. I have made my share of mistakes but have had my share of success too so perhaps I can help. You would have to point me at where you need help, please, and take me through it slow (as in a little at a time). --Justanother 04:32, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I guess it is this Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2007-04-10 Large Group Awareness Training. You can present a couple of instances where you have had trouble with Smee and ask the mediator if s/he has any need of another editor's experience in unrelated articles. My guess is no and the mediator will want to just deal with you two, but I could be wrong. However, as I have edited in the LGAT list article, I may be an appropriate interested party. I would have to review the edit history and see if I had trouble with Smee in that article. --Justanother 04:39, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I dont suppose you'd be available IRL ? Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2007-04-10 Large Group Awareness Training Lsi john 04:38, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

IRL? --Justanother 04:40, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

in real life Lsi john 04:44, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

More articles are involved than just the one cited in the subject. Smee appears to already be trying to weaken or minimize the affect of mediation, based on her comments in the mediation. After expressing my overall concerns to two editors, I was under the impression that mediation would have some effect on Smee's overall conduct on reverts. It appears that she has no such understanding. Lsi john 04:44, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

You must realize that is also how it appears from your actions as well. Let us all take a step back and wait for the mediator. Smee 04:47, 10 April 2007 (UTC).

Smee, please do not try to step on John's commnication to me. If you need to talk to him please open a new topic. --Justanother 04:52, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

John, Not sure what you want by IRL. If you mean by e-mail, I would prefer to keep everything out in the open. I reserve e-mail for non-wikipedia topics and you are certainly welcome to e-mail me about non-wikipedia topics. OK, don't worry too much, the mediators are experienced and they will not be thrown by misdirection. The important thing is that you should have a desired outcome in mind, both in how you feel that the various sources should be dealt with and how you feel Smee should act during a conflict with you, what changes she needs to make. Just spell out what it is that you are trying to achieve in those areas and leave any other personal or personality stuff out. --Justanother 04:52, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

• The important thing is that you should have a desired outcome in mind, both in how you feel that the various sources should be dealt with and how you feel Smee should act during a conflict with you, what changes she needs to make. Just spell out what it is that you are trying to achieve in those areas and leave any other personal or personality stuff out. - I agree with this. Smee 04:54, 10 April 2007 (UTC).

Parenting proposal

Hey John, would you like to be adopted? Like by JA here or myself? Misou 05:22, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Misou, thank you for the offer. Though, I must admit, here too, that I am not sure exactly what that means, nor what I would be asking of you were I to accept the offer.

I did have an interesting revelation this morning with a rather ironic twist. My son, who is away at college and has no knowledge of my recent involvement with wiki, was talking to his mother (my wife) on the phone yesterday. He is currently taking two government classes and is doing research for a class report. In the conversation he mentioned that he would be using wiki as a research tool. My wife, who _is_ aware of my current struggles here, was concerned about the quality of his research and started to inject.. "Son! Do you know.." and he cut her off with this "Mom, relax, in our classwork we use wiki articles and their references as examples of biased opinions, and then we do real research to show the falacies presented on wiki." In another conversation with a friend, who also had no prior knowledge of my involvement here, I mentioned wiki and he volunteered that when his kids try to use wiki as a reference source, he won't allow them and referred to wiki as a "'blogapedia' full of opinion and bias".

Ironic, indeed, that the very things I have been fighting against, here on wiki, have been seen by and were confirmed by two independent sources on the same day.

Given that, perhaps I'm not supposed to fight against it, but allow it to continue and thrive.

Its also ironic (and sad in my pov) that the very rules and rights which give us all freedom of speech are used to undermine the fabric of the society which grants those rights.

I would actually like to discuss wiki and my role or value here outside of these posts and can be contacted by email.

Thank you again. Lsi john 13:40, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

John, you underscore the problem editors like you or I face as editors that are concerned about bias and truth in articles that we are very knowledgable about personally and for which a lot of bias and lies are floating around. We could leave Wikipedia alone and hope that its continued blatantly biased nature will serve to continue to sufficiently undermine its credibility so that it either collapses under its own weight or continues to be a disparaged source. Or we can try to improve the articles that concern us and bring balance. But by doing the latter, we might be doing ourselves a disservice as, until there are sufficient numbers of us here to actually do any good, all we are doing is adding the apparency of neutrality to a still-biased source. To clarify; let's say that if left alone the articles are 9/10 biased but the site is disparaged while if we fight like dogs (or gods) to make an impact against the tidal wave of bias and mediocrity here and manage to get it to 7/10 biased but have improved the apparency of neurtality so that more people "trust" it; have we done a good thing or not? Especially as the instant we turn our backs it jumps up to 8/10 biased. I do not really have an answer to that. My hope is that, if I continue to plug away, the neutral editors here will begin to support me and others that seek to reduce the bias. I think that I see that occurring but I may just be kidding myself. Regarding e-mail, let me clarify please that you are welcome to discuss wikipedia with me by e-mail. What I do not do is WP:CABAL; meaning that any co-ordination of activities that I do will be done in the open for all to see. Some people will still say I am "conspiring" but they are deluded. --Justanother 18:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Those who are looking for conspiracy will find it. The fact that it does not exist and therefore no evidence exists is proof for them that the evidence is hidden and therefore the conspiracy must exist. They thrive on 'do you still beat your wife' questions, where any answer at all is presumed to accept the very basis of the question itself and any answer which refutes the question is proclaimed as avoiding the question and thus proof of guilt. No amount of logic or rational argument is effective, as they simply ignore anything which does not fit nicely into their pre-determined conclusions. 19:29, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

The saddest part of all is that many of them truly believe they are champions of good and do not see that they are part of a brainwashed cult-mindset themselves, blindly following their 'leaders' and lapping up the drivel and circular logic. And, taken to the extreme, they will completely destroy the very society which protects them and their right to destroy the society.

However, in truth, the people doing the most harm are not the radical activsts. Their hysteria and shadow fighting, though extreme, can be understood and explained. The real harm is being done by the passive majority who are going about their lives with their heads in the sand (or clouds), choosing to ignore the damage being done. And, like the ocean gradually eroding the beach, by the time they notice the damage, may be too late to stop it. 19:29, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

If you have not read Ayn Rand - Atlas Shrugged, I highly recommend it. You should probably avoid the poorly written wiki article on the book. Not suprisingly it seems to also be a rather highly contested article and, though it contains details, it does not convey the message that Ayn gave me from her book. I suppose everyone will see their own message in the novel. To be quite candid, the message I saw, scared the hell out of me. The book, written '57?, applies as much today as it did then.

The reason for my request for r/l discussion, was to facilitate a mutual understanding, a relationship and more rapid communication and learning than can be obtained by posting on public talk-blogs. Though I suppose it could be done, I have neither the time, the desire, nor the energy to coordinate some magical conspiracy to overthrow wiki (or whatever the presumed conspiracy would be intended to overthrow). Peace. Lsi john 19:05, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I read Ayn Rand when I was a teenager and that was a looong time ago. Not meant to disparage her. I read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance when it first came out and I got a lot out of that too. I liked Illusions (novel) an awful lot too. And of course Stranger in a Strange Land, again as a teen. I was a voracious reader when I was a teen, sometimes one or two books per day. Last decent book I was reading a couple weeks ago was Misquoting Jesus but a Sea Org member saw it and expressed strong interest so I gave it to him to read. On Rand, I think that Scientology Ethics has her all beat to Peoria and back. She has just one eighth of the puzzle as the Scientologist would say that she tries to reduce everything to the 1st Dynamic - Self. Again, you are welcome to contact me by e-mail; I just don't do co-ordination of edits by e-mail, that is all. --Justanother 20:41, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

• Stranger in a Strange Land was soooo awesome, and some more recent most excellent sci-fi books include The Time Traveler's Wife and Jumper (novel), soon to be made into a movie with Hayden Christensen. Smee 20:43, 10 April 2007 (UTC).

Klemmer & Associates

Sorry about that! Sometimes I do get quite a bit of traffic and miss something in the shuffle, if I do, please don't hesitate to ping me again like you did. As to the company, I've had a quick look at the article. Please do refrain from using edit summaries like this one, I realize things can get frustrating sometimes, but that only tends to inflame things further. As to the article itself, I can't find any secondary sourcing on it whatsoever, so it certainly may be a candidate for AfD. I'll do some further looking, I always do look for anything that might justify keeping an article before attempting to delete. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 05:34, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Quotefarm

• I believe there should be a quotefarm tag there, and so I'm bold and put one on the article.
• If you think the article is not neutral enough, there are tons of WikiProjects and dispute resolution (Mediation cabal/committee, ArbCom) options available.
• "Only when its bias is so grossly obvious, will the neutrality be introduced by its obvious absence." - this is not the Wikipedia way of introducing neutrality. See above point.
• Though you can respond to this, I will probably not act upon it, as I'm not interested in getting involved in this dispute more than I currently am. I will keep the quotefarm tag on the article as long as it's an obvious farm of quotes.

--User:Krator (t c) 14:09, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

One last note then - my intention with the quotefarm tag is not related to neutrality or (N)POV, or alleged bias. It has to do with the fact that it is a badly written article that doesn't read like an encyclopaedia article. I'm not qualified to judge NPOV in this case, but I am a Wikipedia reader (more than an editor) - and I flag articles that read awfully. --User:Krator (t c) 14:21, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Mediation

I have accepted your mediation case. Please watch http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2007-04-10_Large_Group_Awareness_Training

I will go through the discussion pages and history later today.

RogueNinja_talk 17:44, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Amused to read your misinterpretation...

Also, User:Antaeus Feldspar brags about being anti-cult on his page:

"I have been accused of being a "cult PR agent" by anti-cult activists and an anti-cult fanatic by cult supporters. I must be doing something right. Strange; one might conclude that I must enjoy working on cult articles, but such is not the case..."

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Antaeus_Feldspar

- User talk:Jossi/Archives/15#Rick Ross

It really does say a lot about you that you read the quote above and apparently only half of it actually got through to you. I wonder if some anti-cult activist is even now copying the very same quote behind my back to yet another talk page and saying "Just look at how he brags about being a cult PR agent!" -- Antaeus Feldspar 01:24, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Antaeus Feldspar, thank you for your feedback. Without feedback, we cannot make course corrections and we do not learn.

Actually, very little is lost on me and it is interesting that you would assume that only half of your message got through to me. I suspect that more 'got through' than you intended to divulge when you wrote your glib repartee. At worst, I quoted you out of context, by saying that you 'brag about being anti-cult'. In reality, your 'quote' "appears" to brag about being able to annoy two parties "anti-cult activists" and "cult supporters" equally. In my opinion, this is hardly in the wiki spirit of cooperation.

Personally, I find the glib manner, with which you seem to proudly be able to annoy two sides, to be rather distasteful.

I suppose it equally says a lot about you, that you cite my opening remark and then omit the basis for it, below, where your actual actions were cited as reference to backup the claim.

The fact is, your statement makes no claim at all regarding your position on cults. You imply that you are neutral by making a joke about two sides accusing you of being on the other side, as if to imply that you are so perfectly neutral that both sides dislike you. You claim that you "must be doing something right" if you can annoy (and be seen as an adversary by) two sides.

I would suggest that, rather than being proud of annoying two groups, you consider modifying your style so that you are able to make this claim:

I have achieved such a balance in my editing that I am seen as a "cult PR agent" by cult supporters and an anti-cult fanatic by anti-cult activists. I must be doing something right.

And now, to be honest, you probably do not even see the flaw in your own statement:

The views of anti-cultists are basically, either you are against cults, or you are for cults. Anti-cult activists toss the cult label around freely, and anyone who disagrees with them on any given group, is termed a 'cult supporter'. They allow no middle-ground. They permit no views which are counter to their conclusions (and thus their facts) that an organization is a cult.

How do you account for the group which defends an organization, that has unfairly and unjustly been tagged as a cult? Must they be, as your statement suggests, "cult supporters"?

This is the flaw in your statement, which stands out and which "got through to me" loud and clear. Either you are ignorant of the issue, which I seriously doubt, or you are in the anti-cult camp. Only an anti-cult activist would presume to label the 'other side' as "cult supporters".

Thank you again. Your views are always welcome. Lsi john 02:32, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, firstly, you are making the mistake of thinking that if I use terms which will successfully convey to the reader that I am talking about a particular group, that I must be automatically endorsing certain assumptions which you think are inherent. I suggest a much simpler theory that explains the evidence: I was using the term because it successfully conveyed who I was talking about in the incidents I was referring to. Yes, I could have written, instead of "cult supporters", something like "those who advocate vehemently and militantly on behalf of particular organizations which have faced allegations that they are cults and in fact are advocating for those organizations specifically against the charge that they are cults". Should I have gone with that phrasing, just so that you couldn't use it as a reason to decide that I am either "ignorant of the issue ... or ... in the anti-cult camp"?

Secondly, I am at a loss to figure out where you think you got your evidence that I am somehow "proudly" bragging about an ability to "annoy" two different camps. If you, Lsi john, told me "Anti-cult activists think I'm a cult supporter," would it be logical for me to say "Shame on you, Lsi john! You are clearly bragging about your ability to annoy anti-cult activists! How distasteful!" I am also perplexed at your vision of what I should aim for: you seem to think that someone whose edits apparently please everyone (if such a mythical beast ever existed) would somehow be automatically someone with "balance" in his editing. Some people will never be satisfied by anything less than totally submission to their point of view; is being omnidirectionally submissive the same thing as being balanced?

Thirdly. I am not perfect and I acknowledge that I have much to learn. However, it's hard for me to think I have much to learn about attaining a certain attribute from someone who does not display that attribute themselves. Consider this, for instance: "The views of anti-cultists are basically, either you are against cults, or you are for cults. Anti-cult activists toss the cult label around freely, and anyone who disagrees with them on any given group, is termed a 'cult supporter'. They allow no middle-ground. They permit no views which are counter to their conclusions (and thus their facts) that an organization is a cult." Why would I regard the person who holds such prejudiced views as someone I should be looking to for lessons in open-mindedness?

At the beginning of your remarks, you said "without feedback, we cannot make course corrections and we do not learn" and yet you go on to outline a set of views which, as you describe them, would seem to serve as a very efficient filter blocking out any feedback which could challenge your assumptions. You will never learn from someone you consider an "anti-cultist" about very good reasons they may have for considering a particular group a dangerous cult -- you will just tell yourself "oh, he tossed the cult label around freely, that's all he did. That's what his kind does. He did not examine the premise that this group might be a non-dangerous or generally beneficial cult, and reject that premise because the evidence did not support it and supported the premise of a dangerous cult instead -- his kind allows no middle ground. He did not refine his views by seeking the feedback of others, obviously -- his kind never permits views which are counter to their conclusions. It's a shame their kind can never honestly consider anything anyone else has to say. That's why I don't have to bother honestly considering anything they have to say." Doubtless you will protest that I am, at the very least, exaggerating your views -- and yes, I probably am exaggerating the strength of your views. But at the same time, you chose to outline how you see anti-cultists, and you outlined a set of rigid stereotypes . -- Antaeus Feldspar 04:56, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Sir,

"...you are making the mistake of thinking that if I use terms which will successfully convey (my message? -ed) to the reader that I am talking about a particular group"-- Antaeus Feldspar

On the surface, you appear to be claiming to have achieved a noteworthy degree of balance, and glibly cite that both sides disagree with you and therefore you must be doing something right. However, in contrast to your claim that only half of your meaning got through, I looked to the deeper (Freudian) meaning which you have conveyed by your choice of wording.

Your words must stand on their own. Without giving background references to your reader, you alone are responsible for conveying your message through your choice of words. In once case I see "anti-cult activist" as a term that the anti-cult community hears used to label them, and in the other case I see "cult supporter" as a term that the anti-cult community uses to brand anyone who doesnt agree with them.

In order to 'successfully' convey to the reader which particular group you are describing, your description of the group needs to be the description they use on themselves, or at least an accurate description of the group. The reader must take your words at face value. In your case, it appears that both of your descriptions were from an anti-cult perspective. So the deeper question here is: from who's perspective did you intend "cult supporter" to be?

The reader only has your words and, therefore, must conclude that you feel the two sides view themselves (not each other) as cult supporters and anti-cult extremists, respectively. However, in this case the usage is flawed, as neither side applies those labels to themselves and the reader is left to guess at your meaning. You appear to have juxtaposed the use of the labels and introduced confusion. e.g. Perhaps, more clearly, what you wanted to convey is I am seen as an anti-cult activist by anti-cult opposition and as a cult-defender/supporter by cult-oponents. However, this is not what you said and, by your choice of wording, a deeper meaning came through.

You chose the words, I read them and see a deeper Freudian (secondary) message. If you are truly neutral on the issues, then a much clearer choice would have been "anti-cult opponents", which does not require all the words that you suggest.

Should I have gone with that phrasing, just so that you couldn't use it as a reason to decide that I am either "ignorant of the issue ... or ... in the anti-cult camp"?"-- Antaeus Feldspar

There is no 'should' or 'should not'. You alone are responsible for the choice of wording in your message. Thus, you alone are responsible for the message that you convey. You chose the term cult supporter which seems to clearly convey "one who supports cults". This implies that either "you" believe your oponents (in those cases) were defending or supporting a cult or "your opponent" believes he was defending a cult. If neither of these are the case, then you have chosen your words poorly.

Anti-cult activists may disagree with the adjective 'activist' but they seem to be fine with the 'anti-cult' part as long as it is not applied in a pejorative fashion. Whereas, in contrast, anti-cult-activist opponents are not 'by definition' necessarily defending or supporting any particular organization or group. They are often simply against what they perceive as a(n) unprovoked, unreasonable and unjustifed attack(s) coming from what they perceive is a radical and biased group.

Additionally, "cult Defender" and "cult Supporter" are rhetoric terms right off of the Rick Ross forum, used to brand anyone with views which, for any reason, oppose the anti-cult party line. They are not terms used by anti-cult opponents. Whether or not that is the message you intended, the fact is that is the message you sent and it is the message that I received. They are your words (not mine) and I went to great detail to explain how and why I formed the opinion that I did.

Now that you know that your words can convey this message, you are welcome to leave them or adjust them in order to more accurately convey the message you wish to convey.

"Secondly, I am at a loss to figure out where you think you got your evidence that I am somehow "proudly" bragging about an ability to "annoy" two different camps.Antaeus Feldspar

I got it from this:

I am seen as a cult PR agent by anti-cult activists and an anti-cult fanatic by cult supporters. I must be doing something right.-- Antaeus Feldspar

This seems to (proudly?) convey the message that you "must be doing something right" if you are seen as "radical" opponent from the perspective of both sides of an issue.

you seem to think that someone whose edits apparently please everyone (if such a mythical beast ever existed) would somehow be automatically someone with "balance" in his editing. Some people will never be satisfied by anything less than totally submission to their point of view; is being omnidirectionally submissive the same thing as being balanced?.-- Antaeus Feldspar

I did not make the claim that it was possible to achieve such a balance. I suggested that striving to become such a 'beast' would be a much more admirable goal than the one you claim to have achieved in being rejected by both sides of an issue. I believe that any factual article on such a heated and contentious subject, which is viewed by both sides as 'accurately representing their position' is the very definition of balance and what every wiki contributor should be striving to achieve.

However, it's hard for me to think I have much to learn about attaining a certain attribute from someone who does not display that attribute themselves

That is your choice not mine. I neither suggested that you have "much to learn" nor, more specifcally, that you have much to learn "from me". We can all learn (gain) something from every experience in our lives. Sometimes we learn things about ourselves, sometimes we learn things about someone else. Sometimes we learn how our words are being perceived and whether or not the message which we intended to send is actually being received. Whether or not you choose to learn something (from me or anyone else), is, again, your choice.

Why would I regard the person who holds such prejudiced views as someone I should be looking to for lessons in open-mindedness? -- Antaeus Feldspar

I never suggested that you should "look to me" for open mindedness. Perhaps you could learn by using me as an example of what not to be. Or perhaps you could step back and see if you have misunderstood my message. I was, in fact, talking about a specific and extreme group "anti-cult activists", who blatently target groups or organizations, and label them cult without scientific merit or foundation. I was not describing any person or group which merely opposes cults.

As I am responsible (see above) for the mssage which I convey, I apoligze for not being more clear.

I believe that people fit into four (perhaps more) groups or camps.

• Anti-Cult activists/extremists - those who toss around a poorly or mis-used cult label like candy and label virtually everything as a cult. The term 'activist', to me, means that the person is actively seeking out and attacking numerous organizations without having scientific merit behind the allegations. An extremist means the person refuses to present any logical defense or evidence for their claims and refuses to hear any logical or rational case which refutes their claims. Activist/extremists plug their ears and cover their eyes to avoid seeing anything which might force them to change their mind and they quickly apply the label "cult defender" or "cult supporter" to anyone with a view which opposes theirs.

Note: The term 'anti-cult extremist' says nothing about the groups being labeled as cults. Clearly cults exist and some of the organizations targeted by anti-cult groups (extremists and activists included) are indeed cults. It is by actively attacking non-cults, however, that the extremist earns their label.

• Cult-Supporters - members of actual cults who do not see their particular group as a cult. I believe that, in general, cult-supporters are (probably) against cults, they just do not see their partiular group as a cult. Cult-supporters would probably classify themselves as neutral.
• Neutral parties - those who are able to remain unbiased and apply a strict critera and definition to lables like 'cult' and come to a rational and unemotional conclusion based on the evidence presented. Neutral parties, for example, have no problem with including cult allegations in an article on wiki, as long as the charges are well-founded (not simply cited and alledged). They would, however, take issue with an (balanced) article which seems to exclusively focus on the cult aspect and which includes dozens of citations which back up the cult claim, yet contains very little information about the organization itself or its accomplishments (if any) and philosophy from the organizations perspective.

I oppose cults. I support anyone or any group which labels something as a cult, as long as a rigorous and scientific standard of measure has been applied to the term/label and as long as the organization being labled meets that scientific test.

I am not an anti-cult activist extremist. I do not support the use of poorly defined terms or abuse and mis-application of lables and branding.

I am open minded. I will listen to any logical and rational case which is presented. I will weight the facts and the evidence presented. I will not accept "XYZ is a cult because Mr ABC said so". Anti-cult activists/extremists are not open minded and they hide behind vague definitions and resist any requests for scientific backing of their claims or charges.

Lsi john 15:15, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

It is possible that Antaeus is saying that he is seen as "pro-cult" because he reverts silly vandalism by know-nothing wannabes that blank the Scientology page with statements like "SCIENTOLOGY IS A LOAD OF HORSESHIT - GET A CLUE!!!!" And he does revert vandalism; as do most editors no matter what their beliefs. I seem to remember either him or his ex-partner, User:Wikipediatrix, making the argument that their reverting vandalism means something as regards their neutrality. It does not and Antaeus falls very firmly into the "anti-Scientology" camp. That does not mean that he lets his POV influence his edits; I do not see that as the problem. My experience with him has been that he relently defends existing POV versions but he may not be as rabid as he used to be so I cannot speak for his present activities as he is not that active an editor in the Scn articles although he still votes the anti-Scientology bloc party line in disputes. You are right that the words are telling because a truly NPOV editor that had the level of knowledge that Antaeus has would know better that to call people like me or you "cult supporters". Note also that he uses a term of choice, "anti-cult activists", for his team. They do not like terms like "anti-cultist" or even "cult opponents". I should note that I would love to see any diffs of a real "anti-cult activist" disavowing Antaeus. --Justanother 15:54, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I mis-read his claim. I see now that he claims to be accepted as an activist by both sides, not an opponent. Lsi john 16:10, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I miss the difference. --Justanother 16:14, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Never mind. I had mis-quoted his user-page and transposed his words. He is claiming to be an adversary to both sides. Lsi john 16:20, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

See, Lsi john, Justanother's a good example. You'll never find him admitting that people can be firmly opposed to Scientology because of a careful examination and a thoughtful evaluation of the evidence. In his mind there are "neutral" editors, those who weigh and evaluate evidence, and there are "anti-Scientology" editors, and never the twain shall meet. He's voiced these views many times, usually in explaining why anyone who disagrees with him about a Scientology-related issue is biased and should be disregarded. It's a shame; he's another who would see a lot more of the world if he wasn't filtering out so much. -- Antaeus Feldspar 16:36, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Antaeus, you make a fair point. It is just that I cannot see how you can be said to have evaluated the evidence without talking to experienced Scientologists that have gotten a lot out of Scientology. And believing them. I really do not think that you have; I think that you have only read a lot, maybe on both sides. But the real evidence in subjective. Certainly that is an opinion on my part. Another thing, Antaeus, is that you always vote (and revert) the straight party line. Compare that to AndroidCat, that, while a critic, does not follow party line but "thinks for himself". Point is that, to me, everything I know about you points to someone that has made up his mind without really taking a look at the other side. I think that is because you come in to the discussion from an anti-Church, anti-religious, position as an atheist, no? I think that people that give Scientology a fair shake have a more spiritual outlook and there is a lot about Scientology that speaks to them (if they know it) even if they hate some aspects of it. For you, there is no sympathetic aspect so your POV and, IMO, lack of experience with Scientologists, dictates your position. Obviously I am out on a limb a bit but I wanted to give you my take on it because you make a fair point about me but one that is not perhaps so true as you suppose. --Justanother 21:06, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Outdent: Now who is using judgemental phrasing? It is a slippery slope, isn't it? I'm not a scientologist, yet I've had no disagreements with him. I respect his right to hold his views on his issue where it relates to his religion. If he were to deface Jewish, Muslim (or any other) websites by injecting unfounded Scientology jargon, then there would be an issue to discuss. (Note that I did not say that Scientology views are necessarily unfounded nor jargon, only that if he used unfounded views or jargon). If he were go go to an article on cancer surgery and inject a view that medical procedures are wrong, then there would be a discussion. Similarly, injecting unfounded and vague claims against scientology, or claiming that it is a cult is unacceptable unless one can show that it absolutely meets some rigid standard which defines cult. Lsi john 17:29, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

In fact, this is what specifically identifies someone as an anti-cult activist/extremist. They do not need any facts and they neither need, nor want, to be constrained by any formal process of definition. They use vaguely defined terms which, with no hard definition, cannot be contested. They know what they know what they know and therefore they are righteously justified in their crusade, facts to the contrary notwithstanding. Lsi john 17:35, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Another mark of an anti-cult activist/extremist, is that they show no indication of assuming 'good faith' on the part of the company/organization they are labeling. There is never an effort to mention anything good which might have come from said organizations. Based on the rick ross forum, though not citable as WP:RS, there is clearly an undertone of 'guilty' and 'hang em', and, other than by so-called "cult defendors" or "apologists", there is no mention of accomplishments nor any constructive discussion of workable solutions which would allow the companies to continue to exist, to accomplish their (good?) works in a safe and acceptable manner. This is because, to the anti-cult activist, there is no acceptable solution which involves the continued existence of the organization they have branded. Lsi john 17:54, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Not everyone who identifies something as a cult is an anti-cult activist, and similarly, not everyone who stands in opposition to a particular usage of cult is a cult-apologist, cult-defender or cult-supporter. Only after carefully evaluating the facts in each case, can a determination be made about the validity of a specific claim. And, only after repeated failures to jusity multiple claims, can someone be called anti-cult activist. Lsi john 18:03, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Answer to your question

That ruling has already been made, a very long time ago. You can find it at WP:V, WP:NOR, and WP:RS. In effect, if there's a reliable source who says that they're part of "LGAT", we may say so, attributing that claim to the source. (If that claim is disputed, the handling of that can be found at WP:NPOV, we must frame and summarize the dispute without "taking a side" or editorializing.) If there are no reliable sources which make this claim, we cannot make it either. To make a claim which reliable sources do not make, based upon an editor's own interpretation, is original research and is prohibited. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 00:36, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

3O Talk

I have posted this on the Third Opinion Talk page, and am copying it here in case you do not check there regularly:

If you have escalated to the point that you are in mediation, you are already past the purview of Third Opinion. Perhaps you should take it to Community Enforceable Mediation, and if that doesn't work, take it to the Arbitration Committee.

However, I see the Mediation process here has just begun; give it some time to play out before you escalate it to the next level. Snuppy 14:53, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Rick Ross

I have followed the debate over Rick Ross and the reliabiity of his website and I just wanted you to know that I understand why you are raising the issue. I'm not really involved in the other debate with Smee and others who may wish to use him as a source. I just wanted you to know that I understand your frustration with such Anti-Cult sites. I have no idea if you are coming at this from the direction of having involvement in a new religious movement, but if you are, I just wanted to add for the record that I admire the late Jeffrey Hadden very much. One of the individuals who died at Waco was a childhood friend of mine. I was raised a Catholic myself. I have no idea when he turned to Branch Davidianism, but i do know he was happy there. He died early in the conflict, most likely from outside gunfire. When I was very new in my field (Anthropology, archeology and linguistics), I did a lot of work on the historic Shaker communites and it amazed me at how much resistance they met with in their time. I also know a couple of adults who left the religion of their youth who were subjected to captive deprogramming and it permanently fractured their families - a very sad outcome indeed. My interest in helping to edit articles on new religious movements and "cult experts" is to try to keep a balance. I often get accused of being a "cult apologist" as a result. As for Scientology, I have many friends in the Church and have enjoyed socialized with them at various events at Authors' Services. I feel that there's room for all of us under the sun and no need for such antipathy. I suspect you feel the same. Peace to you and just know I DO grasp the nature of your cocnern over Rick Ross's site as a RS.LiPollis 23:58, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Archiving

For more information on archiving, see User:Werdnabot/Archiver/Howto. For non-user talkpages and general info, Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page is also helpful. Smee 23:43, 20 April 2007 (UTC).

• Actually I meant archiving specific sections.. like you did with the one you just removed. Ive had other people remove sections, but i didn't know if simple DELETE was proper. There are a couple on my page I want to remove. Lsi john 23:59, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Notice my CAPS above, its really a habit, not intended to offend. I didnt even realize it until i went back just now and read it. I trust we can overlook each others annoying habits as often as possible. Thanks Lsi john 00:00, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

• Sounds good. In most cases, it's not a good idea to simply delete stuff from talk pages. Once you have figured out using an archiver like User:Werdnabot/Archiver/Howto, or a different one, it is not to hard to then manually archive certain sections as well... Smee 00:12, 21 April 2007 (UTC).

skeptics

Opinions on skeptics dictionary as WP:RS and WP:EL

3O Skepdic is reliable, per media coverage on the site, notability of contributors, and factual information to support the articles there. I've heard of the site in a good way, though I'm not interested in the field of scepticism and paranormal stuff at all. --User:Krator (t c) 16:55, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

This depends on the nature of the information being cited with a skepdic.com article, and the nature of the article. In general, it's a reliable source in it's field, as globalsecurity.org is in the field of foreign relations for example. There are no sources that don't make mistakes. --User:Krator (t c) 18:55, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Articles by the main editor of skepdic.com are written by a reliable source in the field, see above. As an example, I think it's safe to include the page you linked as a source for a Wikipedia article. --User:Krator (t c) 06:22, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

The logic behind my decisions? Well, I read through the relevant policy pages, which lead me to this piece of text in WP:V:

“ Self-published material may be acceptable when produced by a well-known, professional researcher (scholarly or non-scholarly) in a relevant field. ”

--User:Krator (t c) 06:25, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

FYI

• WP:ANI, Misou (talk • contribs • page moves • block user • block log), related to warnings you had posted on the user's talk page. Smee 17:32, 23 April 2007 (UTC).

Your note

Yes, it getting a little bothersome. Thanks for your help. Crum375 18:42, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

No, I haven't seen that much vandalism there so far, while there are sometimes useful comments from anon-IPs. Crum375 14:41, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Smee-II

As a product of our mediation, I agreed not to edit any article which you have actively edited within the past 3 months (at the time of my edit).

I have abided by this agreement. I have posted suggestions in talk. I have participated in discussions and compromise.

It seems lately that you are less interested in discussion, based particularly on recent reverts instead of discussion participation.

If you are not interested in showing respect to a group discussion and participating in compromise, then I believe it is unfair to hold me to this agreement.

I will continue to honor the agreement until released from it.

At this time, I respectfully request that you allow me out of that agreement.

Lsi john 22:13, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

• Perhaps it is best in that case to instead re-open mediation. But I find it very odd that all you wish to do is try to comment constantly on your perceptions of me, rather than on the content of articles. It is very silly and counter-productive and inappropriate. Smee 22:17, 26 April 2007 (UTC).

- It is very silly and counter-productive and inappropriate

That is a hurtful personal attack. Calling my conduct silly, is very unnecessary. If I had said it to you, you would have removed it from your page and said I was being hurtful. If you cannot refrain from attacking and name calling, then please stop posting on my page. Lsi john 22:42, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

-What I wish to accomplish is

• a working environment of cooperation and consensus and negotiation and compromise.
• neutral and unbiased wiki articles.

• I have been polite.
• I have bent over backwards to avoid using any language which could possibly offend you.
• I have submitted suggestions in discussion and asked your opinion.
• I have not complained when you arbitrarily ignored my input and did what you wanted anyway.

-What do you wish to accomplish?

• You give me platitudes of ok and then you make the edit you want the way you wanted it.

• You ignore my suggestions, or you make 1 comment about a wiki rule, which does not address my suggestions.

• You object when someone does something to you, exactly the way you did it to someone else.

• You revert, without discussion. Yet you object and warn anyone who reverts you.

• You edit other people's comments, which I believe is against wiki policy and is rude.

• You constantly talk down to your fellow contributors. Your communications are curt, abrupt and rude. You declare your opinion as fact and thus shut down anyone who might disagree.

I find your behavior to be both hurtful and rude.

If you wish to open a mediation, then I am acceptable to that. Though I would like to know what we are mediating.

All I am asking for at this time, is to be able to edit articles, since you have shown disrespect to my opinion and the opinion's and input of others.

Lsi john 22:37, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

• I have responded on my talk page RE: the other issue. With respect, I did not mean to offend. But I will reiterate here again: I think it is best if we both refrain from criticizing each others' perceived behaviour patterns, and instead stick to discussing articles' contents on the article talk pages. Clearly we have a tendency to misinterpret wording/advice when it is not strictly about article content. Smee 23:43, 26 April 2007 (UTC).

• Smee, I really do believe that you mean well. Truly. I also believe that you come across just as I have stated above. My polite suggestions and observations were intended to help you understand what other people see and why they react to you the way they do. You have now made it quite clear that you are not interested in that feedback and therefore I will stop.

Please understand though, that if you are not open to feedback, then it seems that you are saying you don't care why we feel the way we do. Yet, if I can understand why someone is reacting to me in a certain way, then I can modify my behavior and obtain a different response from them.

You might recall that, once I realized you were actually sensitive and really were hurt by what you considered to be harsh words, I stopped using them. I was able to modify my communication with you because I cared about knowing why you were offended by me. And look at the result: We started working together in discussion and you even said it was fun.

I didn't have to do that. I could have continued along the path we were on. Throwing WP:LABELS at each other. Both knowing we were right.

But I saw what I was doing was unproductive. I saw that I was choosing to stay engaged with you. I saw that I was being stubborn. I saw that I was being righteous. In fact, I saw that I had become a reflection of you and it was not getting either of us anywhere.

So I chose differently. I chose to try to work with you. I chose to give up actively editing pages and, instead, to attempt discussion and compromise. It was a risk. I will not go back on my word, and therefore I would be unable to ever edit any wiki article that you had edited within the recent 3 month period. You could effectively block my participation on wiki. I gave you that power both as a sign of good faith, and because I knew that without your agreement, I would never make any lasting contribution to wiki anyway.

You have asked me not to give opinion or suggestion about your behavior, and I will respect that request.

In return, I request that you never declare any of my edits, comments or suggestions, or my behavior to be anything at all. If you have an opinion, I request that you include "in my opinion" in your statement. If you believe an edit is vandalism then I request that you state it as "I believe it is vandalism" and not flatly declare "it is vandalism". If you feel you are being attacked, then say "I feel that is a violation of WP:NPA" not simply "that is WP:NPA". If you believe something is hurtful then please say "I believe that was hurtful" or say "that hurt me", but do not simply declare "that was a WP:CIVIL or WP:NPA violation" without a formal wiki ruling on the incident.

In this way, I (and others), will know that you respect that we can also have an opinion and that it might be different from yours.

I respectfully, again, request to be released from the mediation agreement that I not edit any article you are editing.

Lsi john 00:26, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

• This was something you imposed on yourself. However, in light of some of your more recent statements, I think it best if we ask the mediator to re-open the mediation. If you are agreeable to this, I will do so. Is that alright? Smee 00:34, 27 April 2007 (UTC).

I do not think it is necessary to re-open the previous one. That one was opened on my behalf and I consider it closed.

If you wish to open a new mediation then I am willing to participate.

May I inquire as to what you wish to have mediated that we cannot resolve without a mediator?

I am unaware that you have made any requests of me that I have not agreed to.

Lsi john 00:38, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

• Simply that this is an issue that the previous mediator was involved in and familiar with. Smee 00:43, 27 April 2007 (UTC).

• Which is all the more reason to have a different mediator for a new mediation about new issues.

The previous mediation was opened on my behalf and has nothing to do with your desire for a mediation.

Again, I ask, what issues do you feel need to be mediated? What have you asked me to do that I have not agreed to do?

Lsi john 00:46, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

As this has to do with your agreements from a prior mediation, as well as your opinion that my citation of policies would constitute opinion rather than a cite to the policies themselves, which was affirmed by the mediator in the prior mediation, I think it best to re-open and continue that mediation. For example, the comments made by that mediator with regard to the policy of WP:RS are very relevant and material. Smee 00:47, 27 April 2007 (UTC).

• No mam. You have very seriously misunderstood my words. You are welcome and encouraged to cite any wiki policy that you feel is relevant. You are NOT welcome to declare your opinion about whether or not something complies with that policy to be a fact. You are welcome to cite your opinion as opinion. Lsi john 00:56, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

• The fact that my statements are my opinions are self-evident, just as yours are yours. But I reserve the right to call out violations of policy as I see them. Smee 00:57, 27 April 2007 (UTC).

Ok. I will not pursue it. This is going nowhere. You want to state your opinion as a fact, and thus dismiss everyone else's opinion, yet you consider it to be rude and hurtful when people do that to you.

If you want to be seen as a bully and declare your opinion to be fact then that is your choice. I have attempted open and honest communication and dialog. Clearly you are not interested, if it means you have to change anything about your behavior. Lsi john 01:04, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I consider the prior mediation to be closed.

The previous mediator stated, quite clearly, that my promise was not involved with the mediation. He would be unable to enforce it. My promise was to you. My promise is only enforcible because I choose to enforce it myself. I gave my word, and that is something I will not break. You and only you can release me from it.

Mediation implies that two people have tried to resolve something, and have been unable to do so. I am unaware of any requests that you have made, to which I have not agreed. I am unaware of any impasse that we have reached which requires the need for a neutral third party to arbitrate between us.

The only pending issue that I am aware of, is my request to be released from my voluntary promise not to edit articles which you have edited in a prior 3 month period.

What issue do we have pending that relates to WP:RS (or anything else) that we cannot agree on?

Lsi john 00:53, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

• You may do whatever you wish. Don't feel that I am binding you to anything with regard to editing, except insofar as well all should hold to policies as with anyone else - and as reiterated in the prior mediation. Smee 00:55, 27 April 2007 (UTC).

• The only agreement you made in the previous mediation, was to agree to follow wiki rules.
• I agree to follow wiki rules, the same as you did, in the prior mediation. You do not get to declare whether or not those rules are violated, any more than I do. You do not get to declare what is or is not a WP:RS. That is done by someone else. You and I are allowed to have an opinion, nothing more. Lsi john 01:07, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I have given my word not to edit articles you have edited, and my word is my bond. Are you releasing me from it? Lsi john 01:04, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

• Sure. Smee 03:30, 27 April 2007 (UTC).

• Thank you. Lsi john 03:39, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Comaze

As per your comment on LGAT, I'll hold on Lsi john. --Comaze 23:12, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Lsi john 23:43, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Editor assistance

I noticed that on April 30 the help request I posted on your behalf was marked 'Resolve via medcab'; is this true? Have you received the assistance you feel you need? Anchoress 04:44, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Anchoress, Thank you for inquiring.

I typed too much in medcab and Smee was able to subvert the process down to a promise to follow wiki rules. He began the entire mediation by informing me that mediation was not about his overall conduct on wiki or about his behavior with other editors.

At the time of the mediation, I was taking it personally and thought one person (me) might be able to stop subtle abuse. I see now that I was wrong and I no longer confront Smee or take his abuses personally.

He has learned how to use 2RR subtly across multiple articles and has learned how to wait several days and come back later and get his way with a rewrite or another revert.

It is difficult to document the abuse in one or two lines in a complaint because the WP:TE is very subtle and he is generally careful not to push so hard that he gets caught or reported. If pushed to 2RR, he rewrites a section and includes his material that way.

Smee's edit pattern is to revert-first (regardless of how many edits were done in a series) with comment extremely well cited sources. Then revert again with dont remove cited material. He does not enter discussion (first) and give any explanations. When explanations are given, it is usually done by Anynobody on Smee's behalf.

It would take an amin with lots of time, to carefully study the timestamps on discussions and edits, and admin time is too valuable to use tracking down the subtle abuses of one editor.

Not once have I seen him enter discussion based on WP:BRD without being forced to by 2RR.

It appears that his theory is.. keep pushing and eventually other editors will get tired and give up.

I no longer engage Smee on his WP:TE and 3RR level and in discussions about his POV behavior.

The two editors who rush to his assistance are Anynobody and Jeffrire. Both can be counted on to add a comment to show up in almost any article discussion to support Smee. And I have not seen either of them ever critidize a single one of his edits or viewpoints.

Based on the above being too difficult to concisely document in an AN/I report, I am not spending time or energy on it. I'll report what I see and move on. His TE wont be stopped until it is recognized by more senior editors and admins and that isn't my job here.

Regarding the AN/I that I recently filed, that was not a complaint on behalf of myself, it was simply reporting a situation that I saw between Smee and other editors, to which I was a witness. Whether it is resolved or simply closed is up to the admin who makes that decision. I reported it and I have moved on.

Your comments, suggestions and feedback are always welcome.

Peace in God. Lsi john 12:39, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

OK, thanks for the info. Good luck! Anchoress 12:41, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

• Wow. Always amusing and intriguing, though a POV rant nonetheless, interpreting issues where there are none. User:Lsi john, at some point you may wish to focus your energies constructively, and spend time finding citations from reputable secondary sourced material to expand articles or even to create new articles, instead of the converse. Later, Smee 12:43, 4 May 2007 (UTC).