Talk:Death of Marilyn Monroe: Difference between revisions
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There is no way the largest paper in New York City is going to drop the names of the FBI, Chief of Police of the LAPD, Beverly Hills Police, District Attorney, and a Hollywood producer |
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:::::::::::::Bobtoo, you say: ''"Morgan additionally interviewed former L.A. Police Chief Darryl Gates, first LAPD officer on the scene Jack Clements, Monroe neighbor Abe Landau and Beverly Hills Police detective Lynn Franklin..." Again, you did not read it!'' I read it. It's in the gossip column you repeatedly link to. The gossip columnist says that Morgan says he interviewed them. Big deal, not. Let Morgan make his movie, let it be reviewed and discussed by broadsheet newspapers; then it will be of encyclopedic interest. ¶ ''If you are not interested in the subject why bother?'' Could be that, like me, Gyrofrog, wants to prevent an increase in the crappiness level of Wikipedia. ¶ ''Also, you are dead wrong about everything also.'' And in addition, besides and too! ¶ ''Look at the cast of name on IMDB.'' And when you do so, ask yourself how much editorial effort went into checking a PR release. -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] 06:31, 9 October 2007 (UTC) |
:::::::::::::Bobtoo, you say: ''"Morgan additionally interviewed former L.A. Police Chief Darryl Gates, first LAPD officer on the scene Jack Clements, Monroe neighbor Abe Landau and Beverly Hills Police detective Lynn Franklin..." Again, you did not read it!'' I read it. It's in the gossip column you repeatedly link to. The gossip columnist says that Morgan says he interviewed them. Big deal, not. Let Morgan make his movie, let it be reviewed and discussed by broadsheet newspapers; then it will be of encyclopedic interest. ¶ ''If you are not interested in the subject why bother?'' Could be that, like me, Gyrofrog, wants to prevent an increase in the crappiness level of Wikipedia. ¶ ''Also, you are dead wrong about everything also.'' And in addition, besides and too! ¶ ''Look at the cast of name on IMDB.'' And when you do so, ask yourself how much editorial effort went into checking a PR release. -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] 06:31, 9 October 2007 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::::A pure lie about no mention of Robert Kennedy the night she died. Many pages about it! Read it again! About no mention of others "Morgan additionally interviewed former L.A. Police Chief Darryl Gates, first LAPD officer on the scene Jack Clements, Monroe neighbor Abe Landau and Beverly Hills Police detective Lynn Franklin..." Again, you did not read it! By the way, there are hundreds of books and millions of people interested in Marilyn. Look at you, you have written page after page. If you are not interested in the subject why bother? Also, you are dead wrong about everything also. Look at the cast of name on IMDB. Again learn to read!--[[User:Bobtoo|Bobtoo]] 03:33, 9 October 2007 (UTC) |
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I edited the phrase "the suspicious circumsicions of her death" to Cirkumstances, since that is either a typo, or a delibrate misstake
removed random unsourced conspiracy theories
I've moved the conspiracy theory stuff here, until someone can provice verifiable, credible sources for the information. Please see the sections on original research and verifiability.
The death of Marilyn Monroe is surrounded with controversy. There are many different theories to the exact cause of her demise.
Kennedy connection
Most try to make a case for murder due to her connection with the Kennedy family and the sometimes strange and unprofessional relationships between Monroe and her psychiatrist, Dr. Ralph Greenson; the housekeeper he hired for Monroe, Mrs. Eunice Murray; and her personal publicist, Pat Newcomb, who was hired by the Kennedys immediately following Monroe's death. Suspicion also arises due to the fact that up to four hours passed between the discovery of her body and the phone call to the Los Angeles Police Department. Jack Clemmons, the first officer on the scene, claimed that when he entered the home, Mrs. Murray was doing laundry, Monroe's room was very tidy as though it had been cleaned prior to his arrival, and her body looked posed. In Clemmons's words, "She was face down, her arms at her side, like a soldier at attention, a phone under her torso." Clemmons noted that Dr. Greenson kept pointing to rows of pill bottles lined up neatly on her nightstand and saying as if rehearsed, "She must have taken all of these." Simmons noticed that no typical signs of drug overdose were present, namely foaming of the mouth and twisting of the body due to convulsions. The police report mentioned a broken bedroom window and glass on the floor, to which Murray claimed was the only access to the locked room. Also suspicious, lividity (settling of blood) in various parts of the body suggested that the body had been moved as well. Those who spoke with her in the days prior to her death would describe an upbeat, optimistic Marilyn.
Other men
In connection with conspiracy theories, it must be noted that the other women whom Kennedy was allegedly involved with, including Angie Dickinson and Judith Campbell Exner, survived him. Through her relationship with Sam Giancana, Exner seriously compromised both Kennedy and the presidency itself, yet she told People magazine that the FBI quit its surveillance of her - and left her alone - once it was apparent that her affair with Kennedy was over.
Bell writes...
The paragraph of quote beginning after the phrase "Bell writes..." finishes with the line:
- God damn it! Hy gave her a prescription I didn't know about!
Can anyone check the spelling of "Hy" please and either correct it, or give it a [sic] tag, please?
Comparison to Elvis Presley's death
In the trivia section, it states that Monroe's death is "extremely similar" to Presley's death. I have two things to ask about this: 1) Why is this important and 2) Monroe died from a drug overdose. Presley died from a heart condition caused by years of drug abuse and an otherwise unhealthy lifestyle. Hence, I dispute why this "fact" needs to be included at all. Naysie 06:03, 4 March 2007 (UTC) P.S. I don't understand "He excluded all he deemed morally responsible for her death." Can someone fix this sentence or explain what is meant?
"FBI Agent"
I've just removed a section that was titled "FBI Agent", and that read:
- The New York Daily News reported on August 2, 2007 that Producer Keya Morgan had interviewed an FBI agent for his upcoming documentary who says he was sitting outside of Marilyn Monroe's house in a surveillance van the night Marilyn died. The agent claims to have seen Robert Kennedy and other men go inside her home at the time of her death.[1]
The NYDN is not a reliable source. If this documentary comes out and is taken seriously by the NYT or similar, this factoid can go back in. -- Hoary 01:39, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
- The NYT is a serious rag, I don't believe a word they print :). Anyways --Tom 14:07, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
- Sorry to brake the news, but millions of people every day do. They are the largest paper in NYC. You should not let your personals feeling about the paper get in the way of your editing.--Bobtoo 21:01, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
New York Daily News
The New York Daily News has the largest circulation in New York City, even larger than the New York Times. But I have seen this also on CNN and ABC news not only in the Daily News. But lets not make this about the daily news, it’s about the FBI agent and the death of Marilyn Monroe. Plus they have recently declassified hundreds of pages about how she was murdered. I think this is a VERY important discovery! Plus according to IMDB the people on camera are all official's some in very high places, such as Daryl Gates who was the father of the SWAT team and head of the LAPD for almost two decades. I don’t believe this information should be censured because of your dislike of the New York Daily news. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bobtoo (talk • contribs) 04:44, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
- The section claims that "The New York Daily News reported" such and such. It didn't. Instead, it printed a gossip column titled "New Marilyn death docu is in the offing". (Sample from the same article: Is Victoria Beckham already wearing out her welcome in Los Angeles? Sources say she has made herself unpopular with management of the celeb-friendly, press-shy Chateau Marmont. "She always lets the paparazzi know when she'll be arriving," wags a West Coast tongue.) The article uncritically reports on what "a New York documentary producer claims". This documentary hasn't been released. So wait until it is released and then see if it's taken seriously.
- Bobtoo, your name was vaguely familiar. No answer to my question about someone you claimed photographed Monroe? Oh well. -- Hoary 05:10, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
- New York Daily News is not a tabloid, plus if you google the producers name and the name of Marilyn Monroe there are over 350 websites, papers and stations and have reported on it. CNN, ABC, and IMDB.com are also not tabloids. I see it on IMDB.com under Marilyn Monroe with all the police and government officials that are in it. IMDB is very reliable and a guide for the film and documentary world. Sounds like you have a personal vendetta against the New York Daily News, but this is not about them!! It's about Marilyn. --USA1812 10:09, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
- It isn't a tabloid? Sorry, I'd forgotten. It's a long time since I've been to NYC. But hang on: the article about it says that it is a tabloid (though not an irredeemably crappy tabloid).
- What makes you think that imdb.com is very reliable? (I was under the impression that for unreleased films it did little more than regurgitate press releases.)
- Anyway, with all those 350 sources to choose among, you'll surely find a better one than some gossip column in a tabloid.
- And welcome USA1812! I see that you're extremely new here. (You certainly wasted no time learning to revert.) -- Hoary 11:10, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
- Gossip is hearsay, unsubstantiated, etc. We should not be expected to accept a gossip column as a reliable source (and I think notability might be relevant as well). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 15:33, 22 September 2007 (UTC
- And welcome USA1812! I see that you're extremely new here. (You certainly wasted no time learning to revert.) -- Hoary 11:10, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
- Wait a minute, why is everyone arguing about the NY Daily News? This should be about Marilyn Monroe, the FBI agent, the Police chief of the LAPD, the CIA, and the conspiracy involved. I have a copy of the original paper when it came out and the gossip quote is not on it, plus if they don't place Marilyn in the Celebrity section, then which section would they place her. She was not a president, but a celerity. If the FBI agent said the things that have been reported, they are very important. If IMDB, CNN, the New York Daily news and hundreds of websites all say the same thing there must a good reason. FBI.gov has hundreds of declassified pages about Marilyn Monroe. Let me guess, the FBI is also a tabloid according to you?--Bobtoo 20:59, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
- Well, Bobtoo, something substantive about Monroe might have gone in the movie section, the history section or the crime section. But here's the URL: www.nydailynews.com/gossip/bwiddicombe/2007/08/02/2007-08-02_new_marilyn_death_docu_is_in_the_offing.html (my emphasis). If IMDB says something, I suggest that the "good reason" is that this is a direct result of PR activities for this as-yet non-existent documentary. Where's the CNN story? And where's the hurry? Why not wait till the documentary comes out and its content is noted in broadsheet newspapers? Lastly, what happened to the Japanese-language evidence for your US-resident photographer of Monroe? -- Hoary 23:23, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
- Hoary, you are obviously trying your best to cover up what many reliable sources have said and have some personal agenda here. I wonder why you are trying so hard to cover this important information up. Do you work for the government? Or are you a pro-Kennedy fan? If I get a chance I will post the CNN report on YOUTUBE.com--Bobtoo 00:03, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
- Just what is the important information, Bobtoo? That the FBI was close by when MM died? That might indeed be interesting: let's see that assertion in a serious newspaper, a scrupulously written book, or at the very least some serious part of a tabloid. But all you have here is that a gossip columnist says that some film producer says that some very old guy says that the FBI was watching. ¶ what many reliable sources have said You've airily alluded to 350 of them, but you (and the remarkably like-minded USA1812 and some IP number) have repeatedly provided a link to what just one unreliable source has said. ¶ My personal agenda is to cut mere gossip and trivia from WP articles. I'm sure that yours is not to add it, but I do start to wonder what it is: an unusually high proportion of your edits have been to articles that were later deleted, and they weren't edits that cast doubt on what was said. -- Hoary 00:32, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
- The point is your information is not true and incorrect. 1. The New York Daily News is the largest mainstream newspaper in New York, NOT A TABLOID as you claim. 2. CNN aired a 5 minute special about it as did other stations. 3. FBI.gov has over three hundred pages pertaining to Marilyn Monroe and this case. 4. The Internet Movie Database which is IMDB.com the most respected and only mainstream database about the film world has a lot of the same details. 5. There are over a dozen officials according to the news and IMDB. You really think dozens of officials, producers, the FBI, the director, Chris Rock's brother, and many more people would let there names be thrown around like that?--Bobtoo 05:04, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
[bouncing leftwards] A reply to the comment above and the comment in the section below: there are many millions of people out there who know of the involvement of the Kennedy's and the FBI | Do they just know it in their gut, or do they have evidence for it? If they have evidence, where is this evidence? ¶ Nobody has questioned that the NYDN has a huge circulation. Its own article in WP says that it's a tabloid. If it has something important to say, why does it say this in a gossip column? ¶ IMDB.com the most respected and only mainstream database about the film world | How difficult is it for a movie production company (etc.) to have Imdb recycle its promotional material? ¶ There are over a dozen officials according to the news and IMDB. You really think dozens of officials, producers, the FBI, the director, Chris Rock's brother, and many more people would let there names be thrown around like that? | Now I don't even know what you're talking about. Wasn't the claim that one very old and sick ex-policeman had said something to one film producer? ¶ It is about time the truth be told! | Wikipedia is not a soapbox. ¶ You must be a Kennedy or government employ for trying so hard to cover this up. | Slight tendency to aggrandize, no? ¶ trust me | After your "Takashi Oyama"? That's rather a tall order. -- Hoary 06:21, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
- You and "Gyrofrog" sound like the same person? Anyone can see in your history that you are out on a witch-hunt against anything I write. The Oyama photographer and his photographs have been published many times and well documented. You obviously can't read Japanese or I would not have to explain to you who he is. You are NOT interested in knowing or preserving the truth. You only have a personal issue and want to argue. Again the point is your information is incorrect. 1. The New York Daily News is the largest mainstream newspaper in New York, NOT A TABLOID as you claim. 2. CNN aired a 5 minute special about it as did other stations. 3. FBI.gov has over three hundred pages pertaining to Marilyn Monroe and this case. 4. The Internet Movie Database which is IMDB.com the most respected and only mainstream database about the film world has a lot of the same details. 5. There are over a dozen officials according to the news and IMDB. You really think dozens of officials, producers, the FBI, the director, Chris Rock's brother, and many more people would let there names be thrown around like that.--Bobtoo 07:41, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
- Not just some old guy like you claim (BTW, age discrimination is disgusting). An FBI agent, a bunch of Beverly Hills Police, Los Angeles Police Chief, first LAPD police on the spot, the D.A., the mayor of Los Angeles at the time, etc. etc. You obviously have not read the article or the IMDB or the hundreds of websites, etc. but you are willing to attack me before doing research.--Bobtoo 07:46, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
- Hoary, also did you not read all the papers months ago about BOBBY KENNEDY'S affair with the screen idol Marilyn Monroe has been documented, but a secret FBI file suggests the late US attorney-general was aware of - and perhaps even a participant in - a plan "to induce" her suicide. The detailed three-page report implicates the Hollywood actor Peter Lawford, Monroe's psychiatrist, staff and her publicist in the plot. The allegations suggest the 36-year-old actress, who had a history of staging attention-seeking suicide attempts, was deliberately given the means to fake another suicide on August 4, 1962. But this time, it is suggested, she was allowed to die as she sought help. The document, hidden among thousands of pages released under freedom-of-information laws last October, was received by the FBI on October 19, 1964 - two years after her death - and titled simply "ROBERT F KENNEDY". It was compiled by an unnamed former special agent working for the then Democrat governor of California, Pat Brown, and forwarded to Washington by Curtis Lynum, then head of the San Francisco FBI. Despite a disclaimer that it could not be sourced or authenticated, it was considered important enough to immediately circulate to the FBI's five most senior officers, including director J. Edgar Hoover's right-hand man, Clyde Tolson. The report was in effect buried for decades as a classified document, and even the released version contains censored sections. Never before mentioned despite thousands of articles, books and documentaries about her death, it details aspects of Kennedy's on-and-off affair with the movie star, including sex parties and a lesbian dalliance, as well as her emotional departure from 20th Century Fox and descent into depression. Critically, it raises an alleged conspiracy, apparently overseen by Lawford, for Monroe to unwittingly commit suicide with the drug Seconal, a barbiturate used to treat insomnia and relieve anxiety. The document gives no precise reason why she would be killed but hints it may be linked to her threats to make public her affair with Kennedy, as other conspiracy theories have previously claimed. It states in part: "Peter Lawford, [censored words blacked out] knew from Marilyn's friends that she often made suicide attempts and that she was inclined to fake a suicide attempt in order to arouse sympathy. "Lawford is reported as having made 'special arrangements' with Marilyn's psychiatrist, Dr Ralph Greenson, from Beverley Hills. The psychiatrist was treating Marilyn for emotional problems and getting her off the use of barbiturates. On her last visit to him he prescribed Seconal tablets and gave her a prescription for 60 of them, which was unusual in quantity especially since he saw her frequently. On the date of her death … her housekeeper put the bottle of pills on the night table. It is reported that the housekeeper and Marilyn's personal secretary and press agent, Pat Newcomb, were co-operating in the plan to induce suicide." It goes on to say that on the same day, Kennedy had booked out of the Beverley Hills Hotel and flown to San Francisco where he booked into the St Charles Hotel, owned by a friend. "Robert Kennedy made a telephone call from St Charles Hotel, San Francisco, to Peter Lawford to find out if Marilyn was dead yet." Lawford called and spoke to Monroe "then checked again later to make sure she did not answer". The document claims the housekeeper, Eunice Murray, who had been hired by the actress on the advice of Dr Greenson, then called the psychiatrist. "Marilyn expected to have her stomach pumped out and get sympathy for her suicide attempt. The psychiatrist left word for Marilyn to take a drive in the fresh air but did not come to see her until after she was known to be dead." Officially, the actress was found by Murray in the early hours of August 5, naked on her bed lying on top of her telephone. The others are now dead, too. The FBI report says Kennedy had promised Monroe he would divorce his wife and marry her, but the actress eventually realised he had no intention of doing so. About this time, he had told her not to worry about 20th Century Fox cancelling her contract - "he would take care of everything". When nothing happened, she called him at work and they had "unpleasant words. She was reported to have threatened to make public their affair." Hoover, keeper of America's secrets, was obsessed with the private life of celebrities, particularly those with leftist leanings. The files show the FBI tracked Monroe from the Cold War mid-1950s to her death in 1962, but particularly after she met and married the playwright Arthur Miller, who was being watched as a possible communist.--Bobtoo 07:51, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
- No Bobtoo, I didn't read about Monroe and the Kennedys. (I'm really not so much interested in conspiracy theories about celebs, live or dead.) But what has all of this got to do with the credibility of the assertion, sourced from a gossip column within something that WP rightly or wrongly implies is a tabloid, that the columnist was told by somebody who's producing an as-yet incomplete documentary that a long-retired but no doubt honorable ex-cop told him such and such? If this factoid is so important and credible, surely it will be reproduced in yet another example of the apparently endless stream of biographies of Monroe, after the documentary is released. Why the big rush? ¶ More on "Oyama" on your talk page. ¶ You and "Gyrofrog" sound like the same person? To me, no. To you, perhaps yes. If the resemblance worries you, you're free to ask to have Gyrofrog's IP number(s) and mine checked for suspicious similarity. -- Hoary 08:40, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
[Un-indent] Speaking for myself, I don't have a problem with citing a news article in the Daily News, but the source is a gossip column. FBI.com is a blank page and (presumably) not owned by the FBI, I assume you mean fbi.gov. Why not simply cite the actual FBI document(s), or one of the other news articles, instead of a gossip column? As you suggested I ran a Google search on "Keya Morgan" "Marilyn Monroe" ([1]), which does not turn up anything else that I would call reliable (but I gave up after scrolling through 3 or 4 pages of results). The New York Times is not linked until the third page of results, and the article is about a Joe DiMaggio auction, not about the film or its assertions. I'll also refer you to Wikipedia policy, which says "routine and insubstantial news coverage, such as announcements, sports, gossip, and tabloid journalism, are not sufficient basis for an article" (my emphasis). And as Hoary suggested, you can file a checkuser request if you suspect we're the same person. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 09:37, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
- Correction www.FBI.gov NOT .COM--Bobtoo 19:05, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
- In that case, please cite the fbi.gov links. Also, please check out WP:PROVEIT, which is Wikipedia policy. Thanks, -- Gyrofrog (talk) 21:22, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
- Correction www.FBI.gov NOT .COM--Bobtoo 19:05, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
- Wow, I also saw this on CNN. I can't believe the FBI has so many hundreds of pages on her! But why would the FBI have so many pages and be tracking her every move?--Sarazip1 08:40, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
- I venture to guess that it's related to (i) lavish financing of the FBI; and (ii) leadership of the FBI by a nutball. -- Hoary 09:31, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
- Actually there are just under 100 pages, at least in the FOIA documents that Sarazip1 cites. My full response is in the next section. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 16:56, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
- I also saw this on TV, the FBI agent and the morgan producer. Poor Marilyn, so sad! God rest her soul!--67.100.51.173 03:10, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
- Please, would you be more specific? What was the TV show, when did it air, what channel etc.? Thanks, -- Gyrofrog (talk) 03:25, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, and let's have evidence that it was broadcast. -- Hoary 04:53, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
- Hoary, sorry you dislike the New York Daily News so much, but they are the largest paper in New York City. Why do you hate them so much?--Bobtoo 08:10, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
[Un-indent] That it is the Daily News is immaterial, the text cites a gossip column that, in turn, cites an unfinished film. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 08:39, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
There is no way the largest paper in New York City is going to drop the names of the FBI, Chief of Police of the LAPD, Beverly Hills Police, District Attorney, and a Hollywood producer without getting sued or in trouble.--USA1812 10:11, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Disputed sources
User:Bobtoo maintains that the FBI Agent section presents important information from reliable sources. User:Gyrofrog and User:Hoary counter that the only attributed source is a gossip column, which they feel is unreliable. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 02:59, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
- Your information is not true and incorrect. 1. The New York Daily News is the largest mainstream newspaper in New York, NOT A TABLOID as you claim. 2. CNN aired a 5 minute special about it as did other stations. 3. FBI.com has over three hundred pages pertaining to Marilyn Monroe and this case. 4. The Internet Movie Database which is IMDB.com the most respected and only mainstream database about the film world has a lot of the same details. 5. There are over a dozen officials according to the news and IMDB. You really think dozens of officials, producers, the FBI, the director, Chris Rock's brother, and many more people would let there names be thrown around like that?--Bobtoo 05:02, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
- No, I am not the only person, trust me. Other than myself and "USA1812", there are many millions of people out there who know of the involvement of the Kennedy's and the FBI. It is about time the truth be told! You must be a Kennedy or government employ for trying so hard to cover this up.--Bobtoo 05:11, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Bobtoo, you are free to post in this section (as far as I know), but the intent of this section is to request outside input in hopes of resolving the dispute (which I figure you might appreciate as well as I would). Your responses to me or Hoary (and vice versa) belong in the previous section. Thanks, -- Gyrofrog (talk) 09:51, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
- Correction www.FBI.gov NOT .COM--Bobtoo 19:07, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
- RfC response - This should be taken out unless it can be confirmed by multiple sources.. WP:REDFLAG - Exceptional claims should be supported by multiple high quality reliable sources Dlabtot 07:55, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
- FBI website about Marilyn Monroe--Sarazip1 08:40, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for this, Sarazip1, but there is nothing in here (it's actually two PDF files) mentioning an FBI agent waiting outside in a van while "Robert Kennedy and other men go inside her home at the time of her death." Pages 20 - 21 of the first document discredit news articles which hint at the identity of the person who killed Monroe (the articles themselves follow on pages 22 - 27); pages 32 -34 discuss Norman Mailer's book Marilyn; pages 17 - 20 of the second document deal with Robert Kennedy, which is already in the previous "Kennedy connection" section (and whoever wrote the report indicated "he does not know the source and cannot evaluate the authenticity of this information"). Most of the content in both PDF files is from before her death, and for that matter from the 1950s concerning Arthur Miller. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 16:54, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
- FBI website about Marilyn Monroe--Sarazip1 08:40, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
- I also saw a little clip on TV about the FBI agent and the Morgan producer. Thank God this is all coming up. I always knew the Kennedy's and FBI had something to do with her death. AND OF COURSE she was killed!--67.100.51.173 03:10, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
- Please, would you be more specific? What was the TV show, when did it air, what channel, etc.? Thanks, -- Gyrofrog (talk) 03:25, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
- You always knew this? And you withheld your evidence from the authorities? This is shocking, shocking news. -- Hoary 04:56, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
User:Dlabtot provides the only serious comment on this link to a gossip column, and it's a clear "no". I have therefore removed the link. If this documentary is completed and has a theatrical release, surely it will prompt scrupulous people to reinvestigate the story; the results will appear credible sources, which can be used and credited. -- Hoary 01:02, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
- I have removed the {{RFCbio}} template, as per its instructions. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 13:38, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
- User:Bobtoo seems uninterested in the discussion above. Perhaps the high sales figure of this rag is supposed to add credibility to a gossip column within it. But it doesn't. -- Hoary 06:35, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
- Sorry you dislike the New York Daily News so much, but they are the largest paper in New York City. Plus IMDB.com, 300 websites, FBI.GOV. The FBI agent, LAPD police, etc. have all spoke on air about it. Do you work for the kennedy family?--Bobtoo 08:10, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
- That it is the Daily News is immaterial, the text cites a gossip column that, in turn, cites an unfinished film. Let's not start over. We have yet to see a citation for CNN. The FBI documents cited in this discussion do not corroborate the film producer's claims. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 08:39, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
- I do not dislike the NYDN at all. I'm not familiar with it. The WP article about it clearly says that it's in tabloid format, the illustrations of it make it look like a tabloid, you keep pointing out that it has an enormous circulation, and my knowledge of newspapers tells me that those with the highest circulations are usually crap. Still, I keep an open mind about it. (After all, even USA Today publishes worthwhile articles on occasion.)
- IMDB.com happily recycles press releases (as stated above).
- A figure of "300 websites" can mean anything or nothing: all we need is a single reliable website saying something of note seriously. (Thus not a gossip column within an otherwise serious website.)
- You've already conspicuously failed to show how any FBI website has shown anything. Mere repetition doesn't make you any more persuasive.
- If this FBI agent or the LAPD have said anything, in any place worth being taken seriously, specify that place.
- Your last question (whether I "work for the kennedy family") is a hilarious one, and much though I like to "assume good faith" (despite the "Takashi Oyama" debacle, etc) it doesn't seem incompatible with a conspiracy theory. In conspiracy-theoretic terms, my admission that I work for the Kennedy family would show that you were right, and my denial that I worked for the Kennedy family would be more evidence of, well, "denial", and thus be more evidence that you were right. So I shan't bother to explain that I don't work for the Kennedy family, the Gambino family, the Osmonds or the Jackson Five.
- Meanwhile, in your "real life" you can be working for Le Monde at the one extreme or the Weekly World News at the other, for all anyone here cares. The important questions are instead:
- 1. Can you come up with some credible source for this Kennedy tittle-tattle? (A gossip column's recycling of what some obscure movie producer claims that an FBI agent says doesn't hack it.) And/or:
- 2. Can you come up with any rationale for the newsworthiness of the claim that this obscure movie producer said whatever he said? (No evidence has been presented that the movie-to-be has generated any more than the most cursory interest, in broadsheet newspapers etc. The blogosphere doesn't count.)
- I'm also most interested in your non-answer to a third question:
- 3. Why the rush? (Granted that a substantial portion of the US population is still obsessed with Kennedys and Monroe, this movie is sure to make a big splash, unless it's a turkey or mere dreck-to-video. So let it make the big splash. Then cite what the LA Times or some other serious source says about its content.)
- Together with a small number of special-purpose accounts, you continue to waste a considerable amount of other editors' time over this dreadfully sourced factoid. Please either answer the questions above or drop the whole thing. Your reintroduction of the same tittle tattle for the same old non-reasons will be treated as disruptive behavior, triggering the standard measures that both protect readers from being served substandard material and prevent other editors from wasting yet more of their time removing it. -- Hoary 09:56, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
- The New York Daily News article is written by Ben Widdicombe who is one of the main writers for the NYDN, NOT BY SOME SHADY TABLOID! His section is always factual information about the entertainment world. So of course he would write about Marilyn. She was an actress and that is the correct section. There is no way the largest paper in New York City is going to drop the names of the FBI, Chief of Police of the LAPD, Beverly Hills Police, District Attorney, and a Hollywood producer without getting sued or in trouble. You obviously do not know anything about New York City and it's largest paper. The FBI, LAPD, Chief Darryl Gates who is the father of the S.W.A.T. team are all going to sit back and not care. Get real buddy!--USA1812 10:09, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
- Well well, it's "USA1812" again. I've been to NYC. I don't know much about its largest paper (other than that it's a tabloid), but I know that this factoid is from a gossip column within it. Gossip columns aren't good sources, unless of course you can find some authority for your surprising assertion that His section is always factual information about the entertainment world. Moreover, even if it were true that some obscure movie producer told him blah blah blah, why should this be of any interest? -- Hoary 11:59, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
- Well, well, "Hoary" or is it "gyrofrog" or is it one of the hundreds of Kennedy kids? It is obvious you are absolutely obsessed with covering up this crucial information. It is also obvious you must be a giant Kennedy supporter. The Kennedy's was not the greatest people on earth, that I promise you. Look how they were all wiped out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.175.71.240 (talk) 05:45, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
- Come come, IP, get your hyperbole consistent. Are there hundreds of Kennedy kids, or are all the Kennedys wiped out? One or the other perhaps, not both. If "crucial information" appears somewhere a lot more impressive than in a gossip column on the say-so of an obscure movie producer, Wikipedia can sit up and take notice. -- Hoary 06:11, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
- So now the largest paper in NYC is bad and the producer and the FBI agent, WHAT'S NEXT? The point is your information is not true and incorrect. 1. The New York Daily News is the largest mainstream newspaper in New York, NOT A TABLOID as you claim. 2. CNN aired a 5 minute special about it as did other stations. 3. FBI.gov has close to one hundred pages pertaining to Marilyn Monroe and this case. There are a lot of inofrmation about her death. 4. The Internet Movie Database which is IMDB.com the most respected and only mainstream database about the film world has a lot of the same details. 5. There are over a dozen officials according to the news and IMDB. You really think dozens of officials, producers, the FBI, the director, Chris Rock's brother, and many more people would let there names be thrown around like that?--Bobtoo 10:44, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
- Bobtoo: (1) WP says that NYDN is a tabloid. Even if it's a fine, upstanding newspaper, this factoid comes via a gossip column within it. ¶ (2) Your CNN claim: Provide evidence for it. ¶ (3) Nobody has denied that fbi.gov has loads of stuff about Monroe. You haven't said where in all of this is the evidence for your particular claim. ¶ (4) Imdb.com is the most respected database as it has little or no competition. This as-yet nonexistent documentary in which you, "USA1812" and the IP have such an extraordinary interest is of little demonstrable interest to anybody else; therefore its publicist can have imdb.com say whatever he wants. ¶ (5) I don't know what you're on about. Your beloved paragraph says The New York Daily News reported on August 2, 2007 that Producer Keya Morgan had interviewed an FBI agent for his upcoming documentary who says he was sitting outside of Marilyn Monroe's house in a surveillance van the night Marilyn [sic] died. The agent claims to have seen Robert Kennedy and other men go inside her home at the time of her death. This mentions one retired official, one obscure producer, one retired FBI person (same as the retired official), no director, no person identifiable as a brother of Chris Rock, and indeed no other people whatever, aside from unspecified "other men". I start to wonder whether you've even read the paragraph you're so keen to reinsert. -- Hoary 11:08, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
- Deja vu. I did read the FBI documents for which Sarazip1 provided a link, and there is no mention of Robert Kennedy and other men going inside her home at the time of her death. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 13:21, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
- Bobtoo: (1) WP says that NYDN is a tabloid. Even if it's a fine, upstanding newspaper, this factoid comes via a gossip column within it. ¶ (2) Your CNN claim: Provide evidence for it. ¶ (3) Nobody has denied that fbi.gov has loads of stuff about Monroe. You haven't said where in all of this is the evidence for your particular claim. ¶ (4) Imdb.com is the most respected database as it has little or no competition. This as-yet nonexistent documentary in which you, "USA1812" and the IP have such an extraordinary interest is of little demonstrable interest to anybody else; therefore its publicist can have imdb.com say whatever he wants. ¶ (5) I don't know what you're on about. Your beloved paragraph says The New York Daily News reported on August 2, 2007 that Producer Keya Morgan had interviewed an FBI agent for his upcoming documentary who says he was sitting outside of Marilyn Monroe's house in a surveillance van the night Marilyn [sic] died. The agent claims to have seen Robert Kennedy and other men go inside her home at the time of her death. This mentions one retired official, one obscure producer, one retired FBI person (same as the retired official), no director, no person identifiable as a brother of Chris Rock, and indeed no other people whatever, aside from unspecified "other men". I start to wonder whether you've even read the paragraph you're so keen to reinsert. -- Hoary 11:08, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
- A pure lie about no mention of Robert Kennedy the night she died. Many pages about it! Read it again! About no mention of others "Morgan additionally interviewed former L.A. Police Chief Darryl Gates, first LAPD officer on the scene Jack Clements, Monroe neighbor Abe Landau and Beverly Hills Police detective Lynn Franklin..." Again, you did not read it! By the way, there are hundreds of books and millions of people interested in Marilyn. Look at you, you have written page after page. If you are not interested in the subject why bother? Also, you are dead wrong about everything also. Look at the cast of name on IMDB. Again learn to read!--Bobtoo 03:33, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
- Bobtoo, you say: "Morgan additionally interviewed former L.A. Police Chief Darryl Gates, first LAPD officer on the scene Jack Clements, Monroe neighbor Abe Landau and Beverly Hills Police detective Lynn Franklin..." Again, you did not read it! I read it. It's in the gossip column you repeatedly link to. The gossip columnist says that Morgan says he interviewed them. Big deal, not. Let Morgan make his movie, let it be reviewed and discussed by broadsheet newspapers; then it will be of encyclopedic interest. ¶ If you are not interested in the subject why bother? Could be that, like me, Gyrofrog, wants to prevent an increase in the crappiness level of Wikipedia. ¶ Also, you are dead wrong about everything also. And in addition, besides and too! ¶ Look at the cast of name on IMDB. And when you do so, ask yourself how much editorial effort went into checking a PR release. -- Hoary 06:31, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
- A pure lie about no mention of Robert Kennedy the night she died. Many pages about it! Read it again! About no mention of others "Morgan additionally interviewed former L.A. Police Chief Darryl Gates, first LAPD officer on the scene Jack Clements, Monroe neighbor Abe Landau and Beverly Hills Police detective Lynn Franklin..." Again, you did not read it! By the way, there are hundreds of books and millions of people interested in Marilyn. Look at you, you have written page after page. If you are not interested in the subject why bother? Also, you are dead wrong about everything also. Look at the cast of name on IMDB. Again learn to read!--Bobtoo 03:33, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
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