Talk:IB Diploma Programme

"Certificate programme" and "college-preparatory"

I'm very sorry that you seem terribly "put-out" that I changed the word "demanding" to "college-preparatory". If you want to add some sort of quote regarding "demanding" in the Reception section, then by all means. Be my guest. Demanding is an opinion. It doesn't belong in the overview. College preparatory is a factual description of the program. It is not only billed by IB this way, but viewed by major universities as such. Adding 4 citations after your change shows extreme.... I don't even know what.... . ObserverNY (talk) 00:09, 16 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

And please explain what your problem is with the link to the Locust Valley IB Certificate Program. Your reason for adding a link claiming it's not mentioned that we can't read is, wait, I'm digging deep here....no....can't come up with anything....I give up..... what? ObserverNY (talk) 00:16, 16 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Ooooo, "unofficial". I like it. You leave that in there Pointillist. Even though IB Representatives and school administrators sell this dog and pony show as "official", you're claiming it's not? Fine by me. ObserverNY (talk) 00:20, 16 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Yo - dude - what's with the hyperventilating with citations? It's obnoxious! ObserverNY (talk) 00:25, 16 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

I've added more references around "Certificate Programme", and I've moved "demanding" down the the same para, because it looks like they sit well together. I don't have any problem with the Locust Valley reference—I simply added the "publisher=" field to the {{cite web}} template for completeness.

Unfortunately the phrase "college-preparatory" doesn't mean the same thing in all anglophone territories: outside the United States and Ireland it often refers institutions between school and university: you enter college at 16/17 so an IB programme finishing at age 18/19 could not be "college-preparatory". Perhaps I should have made this clearer: I'm sorry if I offended you unnecessarily in that respect.

To illustrate the ambiguity of "college", someone could study at Kew College school (age 3-11), then at King's College School, King's College (Hong Kong) or King's College (Guildford) (age up to 18), before becoming an undergraduate at King's College, Cambridge, The King's College (California) or King's College, University of Queensland - Pointillist (talk) 01:11, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Apparently "Certificate Programme" is not a phrase used on the IBO website, and I didn't find it when running a local file search on the Diploma Programme Guide CD, so it is unofficial. Given that it isn't an official phrase it needs the weight of multiple citations. We now have six of them which should convince any sceptical editor that we have done our homework. This is important because according to the statistics there's a very large number of students who do certificates rather then the full IBDP, and we must address this to ensure the IB series is well-balanced. If there's verifiable evidence of IBO or school representatives misleading consumers that local "Certificate Programmes" have official weight, that should be clearly explained in the article too. Believe me, I am not an IB student, teacher or administrator; I only want to report unambiguous encyclopedic facts and I do not have a hidden agenda about the IBDP. - Pointillist (talk) 00:46, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Forget to say that in respect of "college-preparatory" please can you take a look at Wikipedia's College article where it explains about the ambiguity. If you accept the issue, please edit the lead accordingly. Thanks - Pointillist (talk) 00:59, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Pointillist - Thank you for your explanations. I can tell you first hand that school administrators are billing the Certificate Program in public schools as a means of pumping up the IB numbers to try and make the program look plausible. I don't even know if the article is still online, but at Locust Valley for example, a school with only 650 students grades 9-12, the district announced that it had "892 IB seats filled". They also tried to double-count the number of IB exams given because they are given over two days and then used for a "rankling ratio" in Newsweek magazine. They also boasted that "Over 80% of the students (class of 160) are taking at least one IB class!" Yet only 20 students were full DP, of those only 10 earned the actual diploma (50%) and then another 4 got it "on appeal".

I apologize if I was hard on you, but rabid IB supporters want certain information suppressed. Your concern about using the phrase "college-preparatory" is valid, but very UK-centric. My reason for choosing this phrase is because AP exams are considered "college-level". The number of college credits awarded AP in the U.S. almost always exceeds the college credits awarded IB, especially when you consider that the vast majority of better universities don't recognize SL exams. In a way, this goes back to the misinformation provided to parents about being a Certificate Candidate, like it is some kind of honor instead of just an expensive relabeling of a former Honors course. So while I am amenable to eliminating "college-preparatory" altogether, I am not amenable to replacing it with "demanding" in the overview. Thanks. ObserverNY (talk) 10:18, 16 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

If what ObserverNY is saying about Locust Valley is true, then it seems to me that we should not be using it as a source, since the information they provide is not accurate, valid or verifiable. As far as I know, there is no such thing as a "certificate programme," but there are certificate candidates, as Pointillist explained above. In the Peterson book, he talks about someone suggesting that there be an alternative to the full Diploma, which may be too difficult for some students. The certificate also serves as a safety net for students who don't get the Diploma, so it's not "all or nothing." Most IB schools encourage the full Diploma first and allow students to take IB courses as certificate candidates if the student is unwilling or unable to pursue or complete the full Diploma. There are also some schools that offer only the full IB Diploma, like in Florida, for example.

As for "college-preparatory," that phrase is ambiguous. In France, collège is middle school or junior high. And Pointillist explained what it means in other parts of the world. "Pre-university" is clearer. "Demanding, rigorous and challenging" are all words that have been used to describe the IBDP as well. If we are going to include the piece about the "certificate programme" with several sources listed after it, then we can do the same for the description of the IBDP.

La mome (talk) 12:26, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

What do you mean "if it is true" and "not accurate, valid or verifiable"? Locust Valley is an IB World School. If it has run an invalid program for 5 years where is IB's accountability? You want 5 or 6 references to IB schools that offer the IB Certificate Programme? I'll be happy to locate them.

Pre-university is not "clearer". All high school courses are pre-university. Rigorous, challenging and demanding are ALL adjectives which are opinion. ObserverNY (talk) 12:44, 16 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

I didn't say the Locust Valley IBDP was invalid. I said that according to ObserverNY, the information they provide on their website is inaccurate (there is no such thing as a "certificate programme.") There is no way we can prove that what ObserverNY is saying is true about their statistical reports.

Since "pre-university" applies to all high school courses, then a word such as "challenging, demanding or rigorous" should be used as a modifier of the phrase "pre-university" to distinguish the IBDP from less difficult HS courses. I'd be happy to provide sources that describe the IBDP in a similar fashion. In fact, I am sure they are already used in the article.

La mome (talk) 13:10, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

If there is no such thing as an IB Certificate Program then IB is fraudulently collecting money from all of the following schools in addition to LVCSD:

http://www.georgeschool.org/Academics/International%20Baccalaureate%20Program/IB%20Certificate%20Program.aspx

http://www.aislusaka.org/AboutUs/dp.html

http://www.jwnorth.org/academics/ib/ib_certificate.html

http://www.mkis.edu.my/pdf/IBDiploma.pdf

http://moodle.lethsd.ab.ca/wchsweb/images/stories/pdf/2008Welcome/ib2008.pdf

http://central.spps.org/information/counseling/gifted_talented/IB.html

http://www.dwight.edu/academics/dp/DPAssandTesting.html

http://www.gwinnett.k12.ga.us/NorcrossHS/ib/Documents/IB_Application_Packet_for_Rising_Juniors_2009-10.rev1.8.pdf

http://www.andersonptsa.com/index.php/ib-program/

http://www.holytrinity.ecsd.net/ib3.htm

And AGAIN, your opinionated "modifiers" do NOT belong in the overview, I don't care how many biased sources you can locate. The article is NOT an advertisement for the IBDP. ObserverNY (talk) 13:25, 16 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Please try to avoid sensationalistic language. IB is not being fraudulent. Just checked the link you provided for the Dwight School. Did not find any reference to "certificate programme." That is not really supporting your "theory." La mome (talk) 13:33, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

No mention of "certificate programme" here either-http://www.andersonptsa.com/index.php/ib-program/ Now who is being fraudulent?

La mome (talk) 13:37, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

LaMome - Do you have a reading comprehension problem? Seriously, you DARE to accuse ME of being fraudulent because you can't read? Read the admissions process for Sophomores/January at http://www.andersonptsa.com/index.php/ib-program/

Now re-check the Dwight School (a very expensive private school in NYC) mentions Certificate Program 3x. As to "proof" of LVCSD's propaganda, I came up with a 2006 publication which boasts 50% participation - I'll keep looking for the subsequent one which had the even higher percentage which I recall of 80% - http://lvweb.lvcsd.k12.ny.us/dnews/December%202006%20News%20LV.pdf

Please try to avoid your tendentious habit of lecturing me as to my choice of language.ObserverNY (talk) 13:45, 16 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

(edit conflict)

In some schools, there is such a thing as a "certificate program," but according to IB there is no such thing as a "certificate programme." Taking one or more IB courses is not a programme. That doesn't make the schools fraudulent, nor does it make IB fraudulent. There are plenty of schools that offer "AP" courses and "AP" programs, where students take the course and then never sit for the exam. That makes the school fraudulent. Where is the College Board's accountability?

La mome (talk) 13:50, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

LaMome - Just admit you are wrong and apologize for your accusation. The article is about IB, not AP. In the United States which hosts over 1/3 of all IB schools, we spell program - program. ObserverNY (talk) 13:59, 16 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Well, if it is an official IB Programme, then please provide evidence of that "fact."

La mome (talk) 14:02, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

(Ahem)No mention of "certificate programme" here either-http://www.andersonptsa.com/index.php/ib-program/ Now who is being fraudulent? La mome (talk) 13:37, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, you don't get to weasel out of this sort of malicious attack without an apology. I'll keep re-pasting it until you do. Furthermore, I'm perfectly content with allowing Pointillist's wording of it being an "unofficial" program to stand.ObserverNY (talk) 14:06, 16 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

(edit conflict)

"50% participation" in the IBDP means full Diploma candidates plus certificate candidates. There is nothing fraudulent about that.

La mome (talk) 14:10, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

"Furthermore, I'm perfectly content with allowing Pointillist's wording of it being an "unofficial" program to stand" --which is exactly my point.

La mome (talk) 14:14, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

You have a point? Really? I don't think so. What exactly is it, other than to be argumentative about EVERYTHING?

I didn't SAY that citing 50% participation was "fraudulent". I said the district is using claims of participation in its IB Certificate Program as bogus PR to attempt to justify IB, as per Pointillist's comment earlier. Let me refresh your memory: This is important because according to the statistics there's a very large number of students who do certificates rather then the full IBDP, and we must address this to ensure the IB series is well-balanced. If there's verifiable evidence of IBO or school representatives misleading consumers that local "Certificate Programmes" have official weight, that should be clearly explained in the article too.-Pointillist.

No mention of "certificate programme" here either-http://www.andersonptsa.com/index.php/ib-program/ Now who is being fraudulent? La mome (talk) 13:37, 16 August 2009 (UTC) - Retract your accusation. The reference is there. You are wrong and attacking me in BAD FAITH. ObserverNY (talk) 14:23, 16 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Sure, I'll apologise. When you apologise to me for attempting to out me and to all of the editors here for deleting entire passages during one of your hissy fits. I still don't see "certificate programme" 3X on the page you linked for the Dwight school and I didn't see it on the andersonptsa in the initial descriptive paragraphs of the IBDP. I didn't scroll all the way down, or look on other links. You need to copy and paste the references on the talk page as a courtesy to fellow editors if your point is imbedded in the link. My accusation was not in bad faith. And the whole point is moot, since we actually agree that "certificate program" is not official IB terminology.

La mome (talk) 15:01, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

That's no apology and I need to do no such thing. Try again. There's something seriously wrong with you if you think it's MY fault that YOU didn't scroll down and can't read. There's no need to travel to other "links". It's right there on both pages you accused me of listing "fraudulently". (Btw, you did agree to a WP:TRUCE which you broke, so your issuance of a "conditional" apology is truly distasteful.) ObserverNY (talk) 15:51, 16 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Proposed new section

In my view the issues on the discussion should in fact be part of the article. I'd propose a section before the "History" section defining the IB, what it is and what it is not. Included in that section would be nomenclature with a explanation of the IB DP candidate, the certificate, and the fact that some schools are IB DP only, whereas others include the IB DP candidates and certificate candidates together in the nomenclature. Also the purpose of the section would be to define the aim of the IB DP, again with an explanation that in various regions of the world different nomenclature is used such as "college level" or "university qualification." Furthermore, I'd suggest working on such a section in a sandbox rather than in mainspace. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 16:24, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

If you want to attempt this, definitely do it in a sandbox. I'm not entirely convinced that what we've seen in the discussion can be done properly with sources, but there's no harm in trying. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 16:26, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

That's an interesting proposal, Truthkeeper. It is true that there are some IB schools which require students to do the full diploma, in fact, ISA Singapore is an excellent example where only 1 student out of a class of 402 failed to earn the Diploma. ObserverNY (talk) 16:33, 16 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

I agree with HelloAnnyong: the problem is whether sources exist to support such a section without veering into OR. When I have time, I'll see what I can find. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 16:41, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Great idea Truthkeeper. We might also include definitions for "Anticipated" candidates and subjects as well, since I've run into that on the group 3 page and it should be included, with an explanation, including difference between SL and HL. So much info to include, so little time.

La mome (talk) 21:36, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Oh yes, I'd LOVE to see a definition of what an "Anticipated Certificate Candidate" is - especially since every student who takes an IB exam, SL or HL, will get a Certificate, even if they score a 1. ObserverNY (talk) 21:49, 16 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Consistent capitalization

Since you guys fought and won the capitalization issue, may I respectfully request that either Pointillist or Truthkeeper provide consistency throughout the IB series, especially here: IB Group 3 subjects. Thank you. ObserverNY (talk) 17:17, 16 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Go ahead and add the comment on the IB Group 3 subjects talkpage so it's not forgotten. That page looks as though it can do with a little cleanup, but I can't get to it at the moment. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 18:39, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm afraid I have no pressing reason to clean up that page right now, either. My next IB series priorities are improving Extended essay, adding results statistics in various places and verifying some of the stats that are already used. - Pointillist (talk) 21:18, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Ah. Whatever. Since it seemed so important to you here, I thought you would want to attend to it elsewhere. Well, you have capital discrepancies there and plenty of citations to add. May I recommend that somewhere you include the fact that IB examiners can refuse to assess the paper if it exceeds 4,000 words. ;-) ObserverNY (talk) 21:25, 16 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

I agree that the EE article should contain a summary of key conditions, but it would have be presented as an incomplete snapshot-in-time, because there's no guarantee that it would be maintained (by me or by other editors) in the long term. As it happens, the IBDP materials are well written (I guess they assume their audience won't have English as a first language) but you have to buy them from the IBO store to get the detailed picture, and you don't know whether to buy them until you know a lot of stuff. So I believe an important contribution we can make here is to outline key facts and alert readers to the need to get better information before making what could be a high risk decision. I'm not anti-IBDP though: I've been going through the EE assessment criteria today and I'm convinced that—though "it isn't everyone's cup of tea"—it is excellent preparation for demanding university courses. - Pointillist (talk) 22:50, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Re: 4,000 words AFAIK the EE rule you mention is that "essays containing more than 4,000 words are subject to penalties and examiners are not required to read material in excess of the word limit" (page 15 of the EE guide), the principal penalty being that no marks will be awarded under criterion I: formal presentation (which could be worth a total of four marks) and the secondary penalty being that important material beyond 4,000 might be ignored which might adversely affect the marks for some of the other criteria. Feels like too much information for a Wikipedia article. If we want people to read our efforts we have to right-size them. - Pointillist (talk) 22:39, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

...and the moral of the story is...don't go over the word count! It is there for a reason. And that goes for Internal Assessments and other assignments as well.

Cheers! La mome (talk) 23:00, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

You know, looking around my extended family I wonder whether "for a reason" invites a counterproductive reaction from mid-teens. Maybe it's better to say "don't go beyond 4,000 words because you'll be penalized, it might not be reasonable but life's like that: deal with it and move on". Those little buggers emergent adults can be unexpectedly pragmatic if you don't tempt them to argue the toss.... Pointillist (talk) 23:17, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, yes, you've got a point there. I know a few adults like that too! At any rate, saying "you'll be penalized if you go over 4,000 words" sounds reasonable to me. Why would anyone want to go over the word limit?!

La mome (talk) 23:26, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Pointillist - One of my major disagreements with Jay Mathews of the Washington Post/Supertest over IB, is his insistence that IB is better than AP because of the 4,000 word essay. I have two major problems with this argument. Strictly adhering to 4,000 words and penalizing a student for exceeding that number, seems rather counter-intelligent. I would think that the quality of the writing and the content of the paper should be considered far more important than the number of words. If a student needs 5,000 words to adequately address an in-depth subject, why should they be penalized? Secondly, 4,000 isn't really all that much. Thirdly, you bring up an extremely excellent point- "but you have to buy them from the IBO store to get the detailed picture, and you don't know whether to buy them until you know a lot of stuff." IB's "secrecy" and lack of transparency is extremely disturbing, especially to the American taxpayer who is being forced to pay for something they are not "entitled" to review.. ObserverNY (talk) 23:29, 16 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

P.S. - Fourthly, it bothers me that ToK and the EE are only run for full DP students. That means in a school which relies mostly on the certificate courses and with less than 10, in some cases only 4 full DPers, a class must be run which could be far less than a district's minimum class size policy. If the EE is so wonderful, then it should be an opportunity for every student in a school, not just the full DPers. ObserverNY (talk) 23:51, 16 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

I agree that (given the miniscule revenues they must earn from selling documentation) the IB would serve its consumers better by making all its curricula and rubrics available free of charge. It isn't as if they are secretive, anyway—buying their materials isn't expensive (in the context of higher education generally), just unnecessarily inconvenient. - Pointillist (talk) 23:56, 16 August 2009 (UTC) simplified 23:46, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

(ec) ObserverNY, at my school, we do have students who take the TOK course who aren't Diploma candidates. Students are also free to do the EE, but it's a substantial amount of work and I don't know of any students who have done the Extended Essay just for kicks. Regards, • CinchBug • 00:00, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Pointillist, yeah, I agree with you. As I've said a few times around here, I wish that IB would make their documents freely available online. But, as I've also said, it's their copyright, so they can do what they want with their own material. Nonetheless, I'd prefer that they change their minds about that. Regards, • CinchBug • 00:10, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Cinchbug - a ToK technicality, while non-DP students may take ToK, IB will not assess their essay, an internal assessment team must be established to do that, and it will not appear on an IB Certificate. Glad to see at least 2 people agree about IB's lack of transparency.ObserverNY (talk) 00:23, 17 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Well, given their proclivity to "change," (which sometimes leads to major improvements), I wouldn't be surprised that, in the near future, their materials were found online and the core components would be opened up to students who did not wish to pursue the full Diploma as it is now (6 subjects+EE+TOK+CAS). Pure speculation on my part.

La mome (talk) 00:30, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

ObserverNY, yep, I'm aware of that, and that's something I wish they'd change, as well. But the entire Diploma is the focus of IB and I can understand that, though I'd prefer they'd loosen their policies a bit. Hopefully La mome's predictions are right and they'll make some changes in these regards. In any event, I'm not sure that this amounts to a "lack of transparency," since the documents are all available to the public, albeit for a fee--it's not like they're hidden in a secret CIA vault or something, after all. ;) Regards, • CinchBug • 00:45, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Cinchbug - While the full DP may be IB's focus, U.S. public schools are using the program for social manipulation and as a "designer label". The decision by a district to make application to IB is done completely on hearsay. NONE of the proprietary details of IB are explored, reviewed, shared with the public or even the teachers and Board members prior to committing taxpayer funds to the application process. To me, this is unAmerican. ;-) ObserverNY (talk) 01:36, 17 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Cinchbug - I'm curious why you are hopeful that LaMome's "predictions" will be right. If Harpo Hanson really was as instrumental as you folks claim in IB's development, it seems to me that IB should have followed the lead of its chief competitors (AP) and made its course syllabi transparent and online a long time ago. This is a company that can't even launch a complete online DP in this day and age, instead offering 3 measly courses that cannot fulfill the requirements. IB's obfuscation of its programme is deliberate. I am hopeful that IB goes out of business, and soon. ObserverNY (talk) 12:32, 17 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Consensus for deletion of list pages in IB series

This section was originally titled Maintenance nightmare. I have renamed the section to stimulate feedback from interested parties - Pointillist (talk) 01:15, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Since this currently is the talkpage to discuss the entire series, have a look at List of schools offering the International Baccalaureate Diploma Programme!! Seems like a maintenance nightmare! Truthkeeper88 (talk) 00:57, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

I think that entire page should be eliminated. Anyone interested in whether a school is an IB school can simply go to www.ibo.org and look it up. ObserverNY (talk) 00:59, 17 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

I agree. I have never been comfortable with manually-maintened lists on Wikipedia: IMO it would be better if reference citations could be attached directly to categories, so such lists could be generated automatically from primary articles. - Pointillist (talk) 01:15, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree we should delete the list pages in the IB series. That would also include the "IB People" list, correct? (Even though that is probably less of a nightmare, if at all). I was going to doing it, but can't figure out how.

La mome (talk) 12:27, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

No, that doesn't include the List of IB People. Gee, I wonder why Harlan Hansen isn't listed there, hmmm, how very odd. In fact, I see that there needs to be a recent "notable alumni" added to that list. ;-) ObserverNY (talk) 12:54, 17 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

The IB people list includes only director-generals, council presidents and notable alumni. Harlan Hanson wasn't any of those. Perhaps we should add a list of founders/initiators. I noticed Marie-Therese Maurette was not listed either. Which notable alumnus needs to be added?

La mome (talk) 13:08, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

LaMome - Oh! You simply must run over there and see who I added! Right after you apologize for calling me fraudulent! ObserverNY (talk) 13:26, 17 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Um, so is someone going to mark List of schools offering the International Baccalaureate Diploma Programme for deletion? It (and List of schools offering the International Baccalaureate Middle Years Programme and List of schools offering the International Baccalaureate Primary Years Programme) are most definitely violations of WP:LINKFARM. I'll do it if no one else wants to. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 13:13, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

I think you can go ahead and mark it for deletion. Thanks! La mome (talk) 13:16, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Articles are up for AfD. See here. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 13:24, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Thank you, HelloAnnyong! ObserverNY (talk) 13:33, 17 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

As AfD is a voting process, if any of you agree with the nomination, then you should cast your vote. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 13:38, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Done. Thank you. ObserverNY (talk) 13:53, 17 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

History discrepancy

On the IB page, the history starts off with Marie-Therese Maurette in 1948 as writing what would later become a basis for the IBDP. Yet, on the IBDP page, the history starts in 1962, with no mention of Maurette. Thoughts? La mome (talk) 13:20, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, the Maurette reference which was ORIGINALLY here and screwed around with should match up with the IB History. 1948 Pre-dates 1962. I would think you would want to include the "mother" of IB as referred to by IBO's most "prolific" Director General George Walker, but hey, I'm still waiting for an apology for calling me fraudulent and don't feel you deserve to have any questions answered or addressed until you show some intellectual honesty and "good faith" and apologize for your rude, incorrect allegation. ObserverNY (talk) 13:31, 17 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

ObserverNY -- in my view you're crossing the line and engaging in incivility which makes working on these pages near to impossible. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 14:07, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Truthkeeper -- in my view, you are being disingenuous in ignoring an editor who accuses another editor (me) of fraudulent offering of information to go unaddressed when the last time this same editor posted a snarky comment which was reprimanded by Uncle G and to which YOU took personal offense at. Remember? You do, right? I believe I supported you and asked you to come back, that Uncle G's comment was not directed at you. Remember? So I am entitled to an apology from LaMome. Please feel free to call an admin in to arbitrate. I'm offended, insulted and outraged. This sort of sneaky, duplicitous, arrogant, POV manipulation of the IB talk pages by LaMome is intolerable. ObserverNY (talk) 14:35, 17 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

So... you can all sit here and snipe at each other and point fingers and such, or we can actually edit the article. The former doesn't sound all that appealing. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 14:40, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Or, LaMome could simply apologize.ObserverNY (talk) 14:47, 17 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Actually, Maurette was the mother of the IBDP, so I moved her back here. La mome (talk) 14:15, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

I have no problem with you adding Maurette here. I do have a problem with you removing it there and I have re-added it to the IB article. IBO only "sold" the IBDP" for 30+ of its 40 years in existence and therefore Maurette is notable historically to both the organization and its primary product. ObserverNY (talk) 18:04, 17 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Rewriting lead

Does anyone want to take a stab at rewriting the lead so it conforms to WP:LEAD? I'm a better copy editor than writer, and not a good lead writer. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 20:29, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps it would help if you could identify any issues that the current lead has vs. the guideline? - Pointillist (talk) 21:00, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Personally I prefer leads that are very short (3-4 sentences in 1-2 paragraphs), and that are unambiguously verifiable. To my mind, the current lead is OK except for the statistics in the last sentence ("The programme is offered in 2,002 IB schools[6] in 134 countries,[citation needed] and is widely recognised by universities.[7]")—I'm still working on that. - Pointillist (talk) 21:00, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

I've noted that generally articles going through review now are required to have longer leads (mulitparagraph) that give some weight to each of the sections of the article. Like you, I prefer the shorter leads, but didn't know what others thought. I happy to leave as is, if that's fine with everyone else. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 21:07, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

TK and Pointillist, I think the lead here is generally okay. It should be fairly simple to get citations for the current number of schools and countries from the IB website. Regards, • CinchBug • 22:54, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

In this overview and in the IB overview, there are IB "stats" that I seriously question their legitimacy. In the IB article, the cited source today claims there are " 245,000 IB students in 2,715 IB schools in 138 countries." This is 'up' from 2,708 schools with 239,000 students. I would like someone to find me seven (7) new IB schools which have 6,000 new IB students in them. This strikes me as hugely inflated numbers by IBO. ObserverNY (talk) 01:24, 18 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Hi CinchBug and many thanks for your feedback. Re: "fairly simple", we might need to take a view on internal consistencies of the current stats. ObserverNY has already mentioned one concern. Mine is that that IB.org's figures for the number of schools who offered candidates (for certificates or diplomas in the May 2008 session) seems to be appreciably lower than their figures for the number of IB world schools offering the IBDP in that period (even allowing for about 10% new candidates in the November 2008 session). If the difference is significant, the number of schools wouldn't pass my "unambiguously verifiable" test for the lead, and more research would be required. We'd have to explore how that might work. - Pointillist (talk) 01:46, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Pointillist - I have no problem with removing the "stat" line from the overviews. If you have time, you might also be interested in IBO's "change" in its financial reports, (compare pre and post-2005). ;-) ObserverNY (talk) 11:51, 18 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

(ec) Pointillist, yes, that's a good point. The stats generated after each examination session give us information about how many students (and schools) participated in that examination session, but those numbers wouldn't reflect the students who are in the programme but haven't yet taken any exams. Likewise, the number of DP schools that offered exams in the May examination session wouldn't necessarily be the same as the total number of DP schools, in part due to the November examination session, as you mention, and also because new schools adopt the programme each year. And since the IB doesn't always immediately update their public website, I tend to agree that we're unlikely to get unambiguously verifiable numbers from their website alone.

As such, I would have no objection to either moving that information to some other place in the article or removing it until we can be more confident about the verifiability of the information. Regards, • CinchBug • 11:59, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

7 new schools in less than a month would also support our "unmaintainable" argument for deletion of the the IB schools lists. I am fine with removing that information from the overview. Did anyone contact them to find out the names of the 7 new schools? In other words, if it is "questionable," then did anyone question them? If they are primary or middle schools, then an average of 1000+ students participating in the PYP or the MYP isn't unreasonable. The total number of students participating in IB programs around the world will never match the exam session reports, for the reasons already mentioned by CinchBug and Pointillist.

La mome (talk) 12:17, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

IBO also doesn't "regularly" eliminate schools from its list that have dropped the programmes. I know of at least 9 schools in the U.S. that have decided to drop IB, but are still listed on the website. Calling IB to find out where those schools are would constitute original research. IB should provide a month-by-month "roll call" of newly authorized schools for verifiability instead of just changing the numbers and shoving them into the established data base. ObserverNY (talk) 12:30, 18 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Well, of course I am not suggesting that you actually cite that information on the IBDP page. Just thought you would want to satisfy your intellectual curiousity.

La mome (talk) 14:18, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Why in the world would I take IB's hearsay "word" on something to satisfy my intellectual curiosity? ObserverNY (talk) 15:24, 18 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Early development

How is it possible that the IB Council of Foundation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundation_(nonprofit_organization) existed for 4 years without a President? In 1964, the IB Council of Foundation was founded, with Desmond Cole-Baker, Harlan Hanson, Alec Peterson and Ralph W. Tyler becoming council members in 1965, and John Goormaghtigh becoming the first President in 1968.[9][11] A legitimate non-profit has Directors or officers from the get go. ObserverNY (talk) 12:45, 18 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Suggested re-write:

The International Baccalaureate Diploma Programme's early development began in earnest in 1962 at the International School of Geneva (Ecolint) [8] along with the development of the first IB course at a conference organized by the International Schools Association (ISA).[9] International educators such as Harlan Hanson, (Director of the College Board Advanced Placement Program), Alec Peterson (Director of the Department of Education at Oxford University) and Desmond Cole-Baker (Head of the International School of Geneva), were instrumental in securing funding from the Ford Foundation for the new course.[8][10] Peterson's research at Oxford focused on three issues: a comparative analysis of "secondary educational programmes in European countries...in cooperation with the Council of Europe"; university expectations for secondary students intending to enter university; and a "statistical comparison of IB pilot examination results with...national school leaving examinations such as British A Levels and US College Board Advanced Placement Tests."[8] As a result, the curriculum pattern of combining "general education with specialization" was initiated by Peterson, and considered "consonant with the more flexible school curriculum in the USA and Canada" and was the "curriculum framework" proposed at the UNESCO conference in Geneva in 1967.[8] Robert Leach, a history teacher at Ecolint, coined the phrase "International Baccalaureate" and secured initial funding from UNESCO.[10]John Goormaghtigh became the first President of the IB Council of Foundation in 1968.[8][10]

Comments please. ObserverNY (talk) 13:39, 18 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

I noted the discrepancy about Goormaghtigh and the date as I was shoving around the text. As is, we've only added what's supported by sources, and the sources mention Goormaghtigh with the 1968 date, so I'll have to go back, re-read and see if an earlier date can be verified. As for the suggested re-write, it doesn't follow chronological order, as Leach coined the phrase and secured the Unesco funding in, or prior to, 1962. In my view, the section should follow a summary style that adheres to chronology, but am willing to see what others have to say. In the meantime, I'll return to the sources and re-verify the section as written. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 15:43, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Just a chronological note, I doubt that Leach secured UNESCO funding prior to the "curriculum framework" being proposed at the UNESCO conference in 1967. For a non-profit to award funding prior to adoption of a proposal, seems highly unlikely. I also think it is fairly irrelevant exactly what year Leach "coined the phrase". Thank you for going back and checking the sources and your comment.ObserverNY (talk) 16:39, 18 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Just finished it. The version that stands at the moment matches the sources. Leach did in fact organize the conference in 1962, secure the funding, write course materials, and "coin the phrase." The first actual organization was ISES which was an association that grew into IB in January 1968 and Goormaghtigh was the first Council president. I've copied the current version to my IB sandbox (different from my other sandbox) to maintain a stable version. Accessing, reading, and summarizing the sources takes time, as does checking the refs in the article. Now need to do some real work, but will let this sit for a day, and re-check myself tomorrow. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 16:53, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for setting that up in your sandbox. I see that you revised the IB Council of Foundation as now beginning in late 1967, however the section as currently written jumps around chronologically. I have to run out, but I will try and make some suggestions in your sandbox later. Thanks. ObserverNY (talk) 17:17, 18 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

I typically keep conversations out of my sandbox and on the relevant talkpages so the other editors know what's going on. I'm moving your comment from my sandbox here.

TK - I submit the following for consideration:

In 1948, Marie-Thérèse Maurette created the framework for what would eventually become the IB Diploma Programme when she wrote Is There a Way of Teaching for Peace?, a handbook for UNESCO.[15] The International Baccalaureate Diploma Programme's early development began in 1962 at the International School of Geneva (Ecolint) when Robert Leach, an American social studies teacher at Ecolint, organised a "small conference In Geneva" during which the term "International Baccalaureate" was first mentioned. [16][17][18] Robert Leach promoted the idea to UNESCO and secured a sequence of "small grants".[16][19] International educators Harlan Hanson, (Director of the College Board Advanced Placement Program), Alec Peterson (Director of the Department of Education at Oxford University) and Desmond Cole-Baker (Head of the International School of Geneva) founded the association named ISES (International Schools Examination Syndicate) in 1964 and were instrumental in securing funding from the Ford Foundation for the new educational course.[16] The Ford Foundation grant allowed Alec Peterson to conduct a study at Oxford University. Peterson's research focused on three issues: a comparative analysis of "secondary educational programmes in European countries...in cooperation with the Council of Europe"; university expectations for secondary students intending to enter university; and a "statistical comparison of IB pilot examination results with...national school leaving examinations such as British A Levels and US College Board (AP) Tests."[20] As a result, the curriculum pattern of combining "general education with specialization" was initiated by Peterson, and considered "consonant with the more flexible school curriculum in the USA and Canada" and was the "curriculum framework" proposed at the UNESCO conference in Geneva in 1967.[20]

ISES was restructured and renamed the IB Council of Foundation late in 1967, and John Goormaghtigh became the first IB Council President in 1968.[20][16] ObserverNY (talk) 17:36, 18 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

What you've written is logical enough -- the problem is that the sources don't actually follow a chronological order, so it's a bit tricky. I'd like to wait for La Mome's opinion, as the other editor here who's read these books, and then restructure as necessary. At this point I'm willing to drop the Goormaghtigh sentence here (perhaps move to the parent article) and instead simply mention it was ISES in the mid-sixties and then officially became IBO at the end of 67/beginning of 68. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 19:30, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Back from my errands. I hope I didn't do the wrong thing by writing that in your sandbox. I thought that was proper protocol. Please understand that I merely re-wrote it for "flow" and "readability" and that I did not check the text of your sources. I am assuming in good faith that they accurately support what was written previously. You resolved the question of the IBCoF's date of origin and I think it is far less jumpy and gives the reader a much better overview of how the IBDP developed. ObserverNY (talk) 19:42, 18 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

I guess I wasn't clear: I'm merely stashing a version in my sandbox, but discussion should continue here. The current version of the article reflects the sources and I think your version is probably fine as well, but just to be certain and to help reconcile two books, want another pair of eyes to verify that's the correct sequence of events, if you don't mind. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 19:59, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

I'll read the version in TK's sandbox, when I get a chance. ONY, have you even read any of these sources? If my memory serves me well, I vaguely recall you saying (and this is obviously not a direct quote) that you had neither the time nor the inclination to read those sources as they were, in your opinion, invalid because of their close ties to IB (Peterson being a DG and Fox being an IB teacher). I am sure you'll correct me if I am mistaken, and if I am, then I apologise in advance for accusing you of not reading the sources of the text you propose to edit. I noticed from the ibo.org website that the IB Council of Foundation is now referred to as the IB Board of Governors, unless I am not reading that correctly.

La mome (talk) 20:39, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Just to clarify: the version in my sandbox is the same as the article. I simply stashed it there, not to have to have retrieve a good version from history again. Also, La mome, Goormaghtigh is mentioned on a different page (in Peterson) than the newly named 1967/68 move to IBO, and at some point I'd wanted to provide page numbers, which is why I'd left it separate in the text, just so you know. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 20:54, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

I believe I stated quite clearly that I assume good faith that Truthkeeper has verified the statements against the sources. In the spirit of collaboration, I edited the text so that it would, imho, be a better read and flow chronologically. Do we have consensus for my suggested re-write above? ObserverNY (talk) 21:01, 18 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

(edit conflict)

No we do not have consensus. Which rewrite and what exactly are the changes? Again, have you even read the sources?

I read TK's version in the IB sandbox, which looks good to me. I am not sure what the problem is and how it differs from the one proposed by ONY. I think we also need to include this, from the humorous interlude (it's not the funny part though) “The breakthrough in the history of the IB, when it ceased to be a pipe-dream at the International School of Geneva and began to become a reality, came with a grant of $75,000 from the Twentieth Century Fund in 1965. The Fund commissioned Martin Mayer, whose book The Schools had caused quite a sensation in America, to produce a report (published by the Foundation under the title Diploma in 1968) on the feasibility of establishing a common curriculum and examination for international schools, which would be acceptable for entry to universities world-wide." From page xii of Schools across frontiers. That may explain the funding procured prior to 1967 for the UNESCO conference. An earlier version included the 20th Century Fund, but was removed because it was not considered to be notable enough for inclusion. Maybe we should rethink that.

La mome (talk) 21:06, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

What do you mean "which re-write and what exactly are the changes"? C'mon LaMome. Read. Truthkeeper - Debating this with LaMome is futile. You wanted her opinion. You deal with her. ObserverNY (talk) 21:11, 18 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

There are two re-writes on this page. I am not wasting my time reading either until you tell me whether or not you have actually read the sources and what specifically are the changes you are proposing?

La mome (talk) 21:16, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

There is no debate. Simply another set of eyes. La mome, I'd just read the section you've added above in the books and realised it should be added, so that's the next piece of the history section which then leads into the part about starting IBNA in the early 1970s which might (?) go in the parent article?

ObserverNy: I don't mind the edits, and thanks assuming good faith that I've verified material before adding, the problem with your edit is that it separates some major points that are presented differently in the sources. We really should adhere to the sources. If I were to make it a direct quotation instead of a paraphrase then it would have to be written in the manner it is now chronologically. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 21:26, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Truthkeeper - It makes no sense to me to capture the early development of the IBDP as written exactly in the disjointed manner which appears to be the case with the sources. There is nothing wrong with paraphrasing the historical facts and presenting them in a condensed manner which the average reader can follow. I don't find Martin Mayer notable and think you are giving too much weight and opinion to unknown and his writing. Inserting the above section leads us back to listing ALL of the major contributors, such as The Shah of Iran who contributed $100,000 which accounted for one of the first IB schools in Tehran. It seems to me that by working with what you had re-worked after eliminating the Leach quote, combined with my grammatical and chronological revisions, we have a workable section that is detailed, concise and chronologically accurate. ObserverNY (talk) 21:57, 18 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

I made the minor changes suggested by ONY. (I don't care whether Leach was a Quaker or not). The other changes could have been made without copying and pasting entire passages here. Let's not make mountains out of mole hills. La mome (talk) 22:00, 18 August 2009 (UTC) :I'm fine if the Goormaghtigh section goes at the end of the passage; however, I've sourced the sentence w/ Goormaghtigh and ISES together (as it's presented in the source); if you reorganize be certain to place the correct source with the correct piece of text. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 22:14, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Striking above as it's been fixed. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 22:44, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Ooops! Sorry about that TK. I left a message on your talk page. Let me know if the Mayer piece is ok and if the refs are correct there as well. Cheers! La mome (talk) 22:48, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Interesting. Here I posted everything under talk before boldly removing the section and replacing it without consensus. Is the following a quote? came in 1965 with a grant from the Twentieth Century Fund who commissioned Martin Mayer, whose book The Schools was well-known in the US, to produce a report on the feasibility of establishing a common curriculum and examination for international schools, which would be acceptable for entry to universities world-wide ? If not, the phrase "well known in the US" is POV and should be removed. ObserverNY (talk) 22:56, 18 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Apparently LaMome hasn't "learned her lesson" about patience, working together and not messing up the sources. What a shame when Truthkeeper and I (mostly Truthkeeper) worked so hard to preserve and research the sources. Now Truthkeeper has decided to "step away" again. Truly, a shame. We were making such progress ObserverNY (talk) 23:10, 18 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

We've been through the issue with losing references before when the edits came fast & furious. The mistake today was mine, and I should know better, but this is the reason I wasn't immediately accepting ObserverNY's "new" version -- I knew the refs needed to be switched out. Tomorrow I will re-read the sources and verify that the text as it stands now is properly sourced. I prefer if ONY doesn't use my mistake to further the discord with La mome. Thanks. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 00:24, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

I think the record is pretty clear, there was no mistake on Truthkeeper's part as the section was being discussed and I made it clear that I had only edited for copy, not references. No consensus was reached to replace the text in the article at the point in time when LaMome chose to do so. It was my intention to gain consensus on the re-wording and then properly source it before inserting it into the article. Why Truthkeeper is trying to take the blame for another editor's mishandling of an article and discussion is beyond me. ObserverNY (talk) 12:00, 19 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Explanation about named references

This is fixed now, but just FYI, when editing, be careful when you see references in the form <ref name="something">some reference stuff</ref>. That syntax is defining a "named reference" that can be re-used elsewhere in the article, just by adding <ref name="something" /> (note the / character in the penultimate position). In this article, "Fox1" and "schoolfinder1" are examples of named references. The problem is that if the definition is deleted by mistake, the other references are meaningless and a great big red message shows up in the reference list. When you need to delete a block of text that contains named reference definitions, it helps if you break your edit into two parts. First swap the definition with one of the other places that it is used, like I did in this cut-and-paste edit. Then you can do your deletion in safety. - Pointillist (talk) 23:40, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Ok, thanks Pointillist for the how-to info. I am notoriously horrible at referencing. I made my peace with TK. I'll try to follow your advice in the future.

La mome (talk) 00:28, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Soon, so we don't lose the page numbers, I'd like to set up the refs differently. For example see Ottawa language with both live links and page numbers in the footnote section, and full citations in the references section. Does anyone mind? Truthkeeper88 (talk) 01:26, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Seems to me Truthkeeper was the stickler for the way cites are referenced now and it looks fine to me. I see no need to change. ObserverNY (talk) 10:52, 19 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Since Truthkeeper is a copy editor and the expert on references, I think it's a good idea to follow her advice. Ottawa language is rated GA and would be a good model to follow. La mome (talk) 12:46, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Who cares. Do whatever you want. I wouldn't want to come between you lovely ladies. ;-) ObserverNY (talk) 13:05, 19 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

I was going to let the "woman-up" comment go, but now this. I thought that after the last gender-reference debacle it was decided that we would remain "gender neutral" on these pages. Please comply.

La mome (talk) 14:07, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Seriously. Observer, that comment was uncalled for. Everyone, just stick to discussing the edits and don't comment on other people. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 14:24, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

HelloAnnyong

Please review the exchange concerning the IB Certificate Program(me). There is a world of difference between ME alleging that a company is fraudulently collecting money from schools offering a program that doesn't "officially" exist, from another editor accusing ME of fraudulently posting references/links that do not contain the edit item being discussed. I will not have my intellectual integrity impugned by a Wikipedia editor simply because that editor's nose is out of joint that I alleged fraud against the company which is the proprietor of the topic of this article. An unconditional apology for that specific incident is still due. The phrase "Certificate Program" is found on ALL of those linked pages. You can tell me to get over it all you want. I won't until I receive an unconditional apology from LaMome for that specific action.ObserverNY (talk) 15:45, 19 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

I don't really know what you're talking about; I haven't been paying attention to the discussion here, as I'm rather busy during most of the day. I just found "I wouldn't want to come between you lovely ladies. ;-)" to be snarky, or just somewhat uncivil. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 15:49, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Then I guess ignorance, blindness and willful dismissal of an editing conflict is bliss for the 3rd Op, eh? As you wish. ObserverNY (talk) 16:08, 19 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Take a chill pill please

Where have my edits gone?

I wish to remind you all that this is not a forum for general discussion of the IB Diploma Programme nor your wishes for improvement, bugbears, changes etc. Please keep to the topic of improving the article and not a protracted meandering of how you "feel" or your anecdotes. I have removed several comments that are not appropriate in this space. For these types of comments please use your namespace talk pages. Also, I realise that there are several other areas off target in this respect but this section was extremely inappropriate so I have deleted it. It's not my job to be your policing person and I wish you would all be self-censoring in this respect. I am also very concerned about the continual sniping that is going on in this area by single purpose accounts. Please be more responsible and treat other editors with respect at all times.

In my view, many editors are discouraged from entering and assisting with these related documents because of general incivility in the talk pages. Thank you. --Candy (talk) 20:42, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

As you will have seen, I have deleted several inappropriate comments on these talk pages. I have only cleared the most salient material. The very tip of the iceberg. There is a great deal of speculative rambling, accusations and inappropriate demands made of other editors and a general tone of uncivil behaviour, moments of flaming and downright obnoxiousness, tit-for-tat and shouting matches occurring throughout this talk page.

Please keep all discussions to the subject matter. If you wish to know where I feel you are overstepping the mark please leave a message on my talk page. In addition, before you post anything anywhere, please consider how you would react to what you are writing to other people. Thank you. --Candy (talk) 21:07, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

I've restored those comments on the grounds that it totally threw the flow of the page out of whack. One, they seemed to be wholly arbitrary removals. Two, nothing that was removed really violated WP:TPOC, and there's a lot more on this page that does so. Removing comments like that can be really, really disruptive, and it should only be done for flagrant violations of TPOC. Next time you want to remove something, please bring it up first. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 22:14, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Let me remind everyone once more: this is not a forum. We are here to discuss the IB Diploma Programme. I've restored Candorwien's removals this time, but I will not do so again next time. Stay on topic. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 22:19, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

UWC

Cinchbug - The UWC is the only one of the three that actually uses the IBDP. The French Bac is a very nationalized diploma. In fact, I recall at one point, I had inserted a reference to the UWC as being credited with developing the IB SL courses, but of course, that was wiped somewhere along the way. ObserverNY (talk) 18:50, 20 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

ObserverNY, sure, that's true. Okay, I'll put it back in and see what folks have to say about it. Regards, • CinchBug • 18:54, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

To clarify, I mean that it's true that the UWC are the only schools listed in the "See Also" section that use the IBDP. I don't know if it's true that UWC developed SL courses, although that may indeed be the case; but I don't recall having read that anywhere. If you have a good source for that, I would think that would be a good addition to the article. Regards, • CinchBug • 19:01, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Cinchbug - http://www.uwc.org/our_colleges/curriculum/international_baccalaureate/school_based_syllabi.aspx ObserverNY (talk) 19:10, 20 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

ObserverNY, ah, I see what you're talking about. I suppose that I misunderstood you before--I thought you were saying that the UWC "came up with the idea for the Standard Level course," or something to that effect. The School-Based Syllabi are courses designed by a given school (or sometimes a small collection of schools), in many cases to create some sort of course that is required by a national/local curriculum but is not currently offered within the DP. The school then submits a detailed plan and syllabus for the course to the IB for approval. If it's approved, then the school(s) can then offer the course for credit within the DP, although all associated internal assessments still need to be sent in for moderation and students still take exams that are externally assessed/moderated. From what I've read, these School-Based Syllabi often give rise to new courses that are eventually able to offered by any IB World School (at both the SL and HL level, depending on the course)--in these cases, it works out to be kind of like a pilot coure that would fulfill a local need or interest while it's being piloted. Regards, • CinchBug • 19:24, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Cinchbug - the source I linked states that 9 of the 19 SL school based syllabi courses were developed by UWC and are used by other IB schools. Are these SL school based syllabi options standard global offerings when buying IB? Regards, ObserverNY (talk) 19:28, 20 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

(ec) ObserverNY, there are indeed a great many SL courses offered within the IBDP, far more than 19. But, as for how many School-Based Syllabi there are, I'm afraid I don't know. I've not looked into School-Based Syllabi too much, since I haven't needed to either develop or use one. But I would suspect that there may currently be 19 active and approved School-Based Syllabi in use and that some others are either no longer used or have become regular courses that can be offered at any IB World School. And, to clarify, it's not that these are all of the SL courses offered within the IBDP--instead, I seem to recall reading that School-Based Syllabi can only be offered at SL, although if they are eventually approved as "regular" courses for use throughout the IBDP, then they could be offered at both SL and HL.

Just a final add-on, I do think that the topic of School-Based Syllabi could be a good addition to this article. The UWC link you have would be a good place to start. If I recall correctly, there's also information about School-Based Syllabi at the IB website. Regards, • CinchBug • 19:40, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

A final clarification, since your question changed a little bit since I wrote the above: From what I remember reading, if School B wants to use a School-Based Syllabus created by School A, then they need to approval for that. But some of these courses are eventually adopted as "core" courses within a given subject group (the link you provided gave a couple of examples) and are authorized to be offered by any IBDP school. Hopefully that's more clear. And I do still think this could be a good additional topic for the article. Regards, • CinchBug • 19:46, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, I'm still confused. According to the IB website: IB Diploma Programme candidates are required to study six subjects: one subject each from groups one to five, and a sixth subject from group six or an elective. The electives include a second subject from groups one to four, Further Mathematics SL, Computer Science and a school-based syllabus approved by the IB. http://www.ibo.org/ibna/ibnarecognition/diplomaprogrammeinformation/ So it would appear to me, that IB regularly allows what appear to be "school-based" courses to be permitted as the 6th subject and part of the Diploma as long as IB approves it. Where would one find the "standards" IB uses to determine if a school-based syllabi warrants IB approval? Thanks ObserverNY (talk) 20:44, 20 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Cinchbug - I agree that it's a good idea to add something ... somewhere regarding school-based syllabi translating top SL IB courses which are acceptable as part of the IBDP. It also seems to me that in reading just the Wikipedia articles on the UWC and the Atlantic College that the UWC had a sizeable role in the early development with regards to Peterson and Kurt Hahn (who is not mentioned here). I also note that Harlan Hanson, is not mentioned there. ;-)

I would also like to register a formal objection to the group plotting against me going on at HelloAnnyong's house. ;-) Cheers! ObserverNY (talk) 00:53, 21 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Yes, because apparently a discussion La mome and I had counts as "group plotting." If you want, I'll state my beliefs here too. I think edit histories speak for themselves. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 01:04, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

HA - you forgot your 3rd Musketeer! Btw, who is Kay?

Anyway, any thoughts on UWC? After all, this is not a forum. ;-)ObserverNY (talk) 01:13, 21 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

"Kay" is " 'kay " when I don't add the apostrophe. It's a shortening of "okay." I'll revise my edit so it's not confusing. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 01:19, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Back to Early Development and Inclusion of UWC

Cinchbug - I added references to school based syllabi in the Subject Groups. However, I believe that the early development section needs to include info about UWC which is described as "pivotal" to the development of the IBDP. http://www.uwc.org/who_we_are/history/international_baccalaureate_development.aspx

From an historical standpoint, it appears to me that Lord Mountbatten's colleague Kurt Hahn had tremendous influence in bringing in Alec Peterson, who would become the 1st DG. In the interest of cooperation and since the revision of the incorrect representation of the formation of the IBCoF, I felt the references to Hanson and Mayer were ok, but it seems that the way the paragraphs were crafted were designed to give undue weight to those individuals. Since Hanson appeared to be important to you, I respectfully request that you create some sort of draft for revision of the early development section. The UWC is also an NGO of UNESCO which I believe also needs to be referenced. http://erc.unesco.org/ong/en/directory/ONG_Desc_portal.asp?mode=gn&code=1002 Thank you. ObserverNY (talk) 11:49, 21 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Do we have secondary sources supporting the claim that UWC was "pivotal" in the development of the IBDP?

La mome (talk) 12:34, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

From the Peterson Lectures (which also needs to be included): http://www.ibo.org/council/peterson/sutcliffe/ Please note, no text has yet been composed for addition and therefore my emphasis of the word "pivotal" was merely for discussion purposes. However, Hahn and the UWC were clearly significant and notable in the IBDP's development. ObserverNY (talk) 13:11, 21 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Pilot Courses

I question the inclusion of alleged "pilot" IB courses (refs. 31 & 3435) which can only be verified via proprietary material. As a reader, I have no way of checking if this information is accurate. ObserverNY (talk) 11:28, 21 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

http://www.govhs.org/vhsweb/Press.nsf/By+Date/B9F58F3781DD64FB862572AB0044263D?OpenDocument

http://www.govhs.org/Pages/Academics-IB

La mome (talk) 12:25, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

That is not what I was referring to. This is what I was referring to:

• Group 6: The arts....The pilot course for Dance in SL or HL is offered at schools participating in the pilot program.[31]...Text and Performance SL (Groups 1 and 6), which is currently a pilot course.[35]

Neither of the above courses are listed in LaMome's links. ObserverNY (talk) 12:32, 21 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

I have removed all of the "pilot" course references in the Group subject section as these statements are not verifiable.ObserverNY (talk) 12:49, 21 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

ObserverNY, first, there's nothing wrong with using the documents we've already listed as citations for those courses. Second, I have additional citations for each course. So I'm going to go ahead and revert those edits and include the new references. Regards, • CinchBug • 13:03, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Cinchbug - I'd like to see your references please, Cinchbug. Because when I wanted to use the IB Handbook of Procedures (with a readable link) as a reference for something related to Special Needs, I was forbidden from doing so because it was an IB propietary item. Therefore, IB "draft" guides for something that isn't offered globally or publicly do not constitute verifiable sources either. ObserverNY (talk) 13:15, 21 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Cinchbug - your citations have big red errors ;-) I respectfully suggest that if you want to include these "pilot" courses that are not yet developed, not described and not officially offered globally to all IB schools, that a reference to them be placed in the section with the "pilot" online programme instead of inserted in the Subject Groups. Thank you. ObserverNY (talk) 13:23, 21 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

ObserverNY, the new references I included are all freely available on the web, as you can see in the article. Regards, • CinchBug • 13:17, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Oops, apparently not, since there is some sort of error in my citation. I'll go in and fix the errors so that you can see the sources. Sorry 'bout that! • CinchBug • 13:19, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Before you do, please read my suggestion above. I am not opposed to including verifiable information, however the Subject Group should reflect actual courses available to all IB schools. Thank you. ObserverNY (talk) 13:26, 21 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Okay, the citatons seem to be working now. I didn't see your suggestion until now, but I don't have any particular objection to it. But before we move the pilot courses to that section (which I suppose would then have to be renamed), what does everyone else think? Regards, • CinchBug • 13:32, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

The pilot courses are actual courses available to all IB schools. They just need to apply to offer them. I am opposed to moving them to the section with online courses, unless that section is moved up to immediately follow the subjects section.

La mome (talk) 13:37, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Too late. Change was already made, without consensus. I propose we move the core requirements to before the subjects, followed by online courses. Any objections? Ok, then...

La mome (talk) 13:43, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

So far ObserverNY has engaged in 2 acts of disruptive editing-first, by deleting the pilot courses and then by moving them--both without any input from other editors.

La mome (talk) 13:48, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Oh please, spare us. I posted the topic for discussion. You came in and provided two irrelevant links. Cinchbug agreed with the more proper placement of "pilot" courses in the appropriately re-named Participation, online and pilot courses section. You asked to move it up. I did. I properly transferred all of the verifiable references Cinchbug provided and inserted them in the new section. Take a chill pill. ObserverNY (talk) 13:54, 21 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

I have very little time at the moment and haven't had the chance to evaluate this, but I see that Cinchbug asked for input at 13:32 and it seems that the changes were made by 13:43. This is much too fast! If these courses are not exclusive to the pilot online courses then, in my view, they shouldn't go in that section. I'd recommend keeping them where Cinchbug had them until people have had the opportunity to review the sections and text. I won't have time to do so until much later. Thanks. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 14:09, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Truthkeeper - Since Cinchbug provided verifiable references and also specifically stated he has "no particular objection" to re-naming the Participation section and yes, I have other things to do with my life as well, I made the changes. I made good faith, accurate, informative edits. From the IB information, all it says is they are "pilot courses" and they have been separately listed from the "online" pilot program in the new section. LaMome arbitrarily removed the Participation statement without ANY discussion and shoved it into Application and Authorization. I moved that section to a more appropriate placement. ObserverNY (talk) 14:15, 21 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

ObserverNY - "I question the inclusion of alleged "pilot" IB courses (refs. 31 & 3435) which can only be verified via proprietary material. As a reader, I have no way of checking if this information is accurate."

Just because you have no way of checking if the information is accurate does not mean that others do not. I'm not aware of any WP policy that states that any single individual must have access to a document in order to verify it and allow it in WP. If others can check it that should be enough surely? --Candy (talk) 08:00, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

According to WP:Verifiability - "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true." ObserverNY (talk) 12:18, 23 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Thanks ObserverNY. I have read that. However, it doesn't state that all readers should be able to verify every statement all of the time. There are several readers who have access to the material and can verify it. Just like any information if you don't have the book, magazine, DVD, CD etc than you have to go and get it if you want to check the information. Sometimes this is simply difficult and we have to rely on good faith of the people concerned surely? The IB guides are fully referenced as well (or so I have seen) so this shouldn't be a problem. As regards my comment below about ESS, the UWC statement about Ecosystems and Societies is unverified. In fact it is not even verified by the source of the information - the IB (their store has the ESS guide currently for sale). This is both true and verifyable (they are not necessarily mutually exclusive). --Candy (talk) 13:52, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Please locate the IB Guides under WP:Book sources and I will be happy to accept them as verifiable references. Thank you. ObserverNY (talk) 14:12, 23 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Application and authorization

ObserverNY moved the application and authorization section up to before the subject groups and core requirements without discussing the proposed move here first. I oppose this change and consider it to be a third act of disruptive editing today on the part of ObserverNY. Does anyone else object to the displacement of the application and authorization section? La mome (talk) 14:17, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I moved the section after YOU eliminated Participation and shoved it into A & A without discussing the proposed move here first. Stop with the accusations, I'm sick of it. You are not welcoming, you are not acting in good faith, you provided invalid references and you make constructive editing on these pages next to impossible. ObserverNY (talk) 14:22, 21 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

(ec) In my view, leave the edits as is for now, until others can review and chime in. I thought the application and authorization section was fine where it was, but as I've stated in the previous post to ONY, I haven't had the time to review all of todays edits. At this point, editors should either follow the edit, revert, discuss procedure, or wait to discuss first, which means waiting for others to get here.(Post ec comment: nobody will join the party when it's this uncomfortable.) Truthkeeper88 (talk) 14:25, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

(ec x2) Look, I really don't want to get involved in all of the drama. But, to be clear, ObserverNY, I didn't say that I "agreed with the more proper placement" of the pilot information; while I stated that I had no particular objection to moving the information, I also clearly asked for additional input before we moved anything. To keep things more drama-free in the future, if someone asks for further input before making a change, let's wait for further input--as TK points out, we're trying to do these edits way too fast. As a result of these kinds of things, we've seen references get broken or lost, and a great deal of animosity build up between editors. These would be better articles if everyone would agree to slow down, collaborate, and not snipe at each other. Regards, • CinchBug • 14:26, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Cinchbug - Does it look ok to you now? Does EVERYTHING on this article have to turn into a war because LaMome has "issues"? Can we please use some common sense and stop pandering to her and attacking me? She removed the UWC reference as well, claiming "undue weight". Frankly, I have no idea when these pilot course references were even originally inserted into the article. There was never any discussion about adding them on this talk page, from what I recall. I stated above, I have no problem with referencing verifiable information, but if they are "pilot" and not fully developed, then they should not be referenced in the section of established courses. Unless LaMome has changed the article yet again since I started writing this comment, I am fine with the current layout.ObserverNY (talk) 14:35, 21 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

ONY -- I'm respectfully asking you stop attacking another Wikipedia editor on this talk page. It serves no purpose. Thanks. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 14:37, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

TK

Too late. Change was already made, without consensus. I propose we move the core requirements to before the subjects, followed by online courses. Any objections? Ok, then...La mome (talk) 13:43, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

So far ObserverNY has engaged in 2 acts of disruptive editing-first, by deleting the pilot courses and then by moving them--both without any input from other editors. La mome (talk) 13:48, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Is this constructive? No, it is not. It is an attack on me and WP:Harrassment and I have HAD ENOUGH!!! She tried to support pilot course statements with irrelevant links and immediately went into attack mode. Be fair TK. ObserverNY (talk) 14:45, 21 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Harassment is defined as a pattern of offensive behavior that appears to a reasonable observer to have the purpose of adversely affecting a targeted person or persons, usually (but not always) for the purpose of threatening or intimidating the primary target. I am sick and tired of LaMome reporting me to admin, engaging in edit wars, breaking WP:Truce leaving threats on my talk page and seeking to make me the "bad guy" because I don't share her same POV. Wikipedia is supposed to be POV neutral and balanced, no? Enough is enough. ObserverNY (talk) 14:57, 21 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

I think it goes both ways. It always takes two to tango. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 15:11, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

TK - I guess you don't subscribe to the "who threw the first punch and who continues to punch first" theory. I have a right to defend my integrity and good faith edits. Almost EVERY single edit I have ever made to IB has been attacked by LaMome. Yes, I have responded inappropriately, I am human. As evidenced above, I am perfectly capable of carrying on completely edit related, on topic discussion with a reasonable editor like Cinchbug, until LaMome arrives on the scene. Instead of attempting to validate the references, she supplied completely irrelevant links. Please note I didn't accuse her of being fraudulent. ObserverNY (talk) 15:29, 21 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

If you're referring to the links at the top of the "Pilot Courses" section here on the talk page, they look fine to me. Can you explain why they're irrelevant. I have a little bit of time at the moment to review the edit history for today's edits and to review the talk page. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 16:03, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Back to UWC

To insert the information about the UWC and Hahn in the early development section requires a major re-working of the section. I think it is important, but I am unable to find the spirit to do it knowing it will only be attacked and disputed, despite the fact that it is verified, legitimate information. ObserverNY (talk)ObserverNY

Most recent edits

The edits about pilot courses were added in early July as can be seen here. Apparently both Cinchbug and La mome understand the terminology of pilot course as it refers to electives; however, perhaps a quick statement to the effect that they shouldn't be confused with the pilot online courses wouldn't hurt. I don't think it makes sense to move these to the pilot section as that should (in my mind) refer to the online courses, and perhaps that section should be renamed "Online instruction". As for the refs, those have been used to verify all the courses in the subject sections and on the subject pages. Because it's not available online doesn't make the source unreliable. I think this is fine where it has been since early July.

I haven't had the opportunity to view the links to the UWC, but most likely it makes sense, as ONY suggests to write a section about UWC's involvement in the history & development section. Both Peterson and Hayden devote chapters to Atlantic college, but that history extends back to the 1920s so I hadn't added it in but perhaps ONY can review those chapters to find information to add to the history section. In my view if a course is developed, then "development" is a good place to put it.

As for moving the sentence that IB DP students have to attend a world school to the Application section -- I don't see a problem with it. In fact it functions as a good transition sentence for that section and I'm surprised that move hasn't been made earlier. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 16:51, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

TK - I have no explanation as to why you are willing to accept an unverifiable, proprietary, draft reference to stand as a valid reference. Since linking the IB Handbook is considered a copyright violation, I don't see how you can justify referencing material that no one else can verify. The links that LaMome provided which I said were irrelevant referred to one school participating in the online pilot programme, not the pilot courses and references being questioned. As has been defined, they are two different animals. As to your linking of the history of the insertion of the pilot course information, again, I see no reference to any discussion of that information being added here on the talk page. I had no idea who inserted the edits originally, I was not targeting the editors who originally inserted them, I was reading over the article this morning and those sentences jumped out at me which is why I sought verifiable sources (which Cinchbug provided) and sought to organize the information in a clearer fashion.

I also don't have a problem with moving the sentence ... now. However it was done in a frenzy by LaMome in response to my edits and without discussion. I fail to understand why you think I am the only one who should wait for days before a legitimate edit is made, but LaMome can rapidfire do whatever she pleases without discussion and that's fine by you. ObserverNY (talk) 18:07, 21 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

(ec) ObserverNY, as far as I know, I'm the one who originally included information about the pilot courses when I was editing the "Subject Groups and Coursework" section back in early July--if it helps refresh your memory, you complimented me on the work that I did in that section back on your Talk page during our first discussion.

Also, I'm not sure that the fact that the original references I used cannot be freely accessed by everyone on the internet is relevant; after all, scientific journals are also not free--thus articles from scientific journals cannot typically be read unless the reader has a subscription or is a student at a school or university that has a subscription.

I can't speak for TK, but I'll nonetheless hazard a guess that, like me, s/he doesn't think that you are "the only one who should wait for days before a legitimate edit is made," but we're not talking about days here, and we're not even talking about hours--the edits that were in question took place within about 10 minutes of my request for additional input. Perhaps I'm just beating a dead horse, but I'll again call on everyone to try to edit more slowly and deliberately, in a collaborative fashion.

With that in mind, I'd like to ask ObserverNY, La mome, and, in fact, all of us to agree to bury the hatchet (no, not in each other's skulls!) and once again agree to a truce. It worked for a little while not too long ago and I see no reason why it can't work again. Regards, • CinchBug • 18:33, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

I have no disagreement with you, Cinchbug. I see no effort on LaMome's part to bury the hatchet anywhere except in my skull as I never received an apology from her for calling me fraudulent. I don't think you would like it if I called you that, would you? A simple, "I'm sorry for calling you fraudulent" would sign the truce deal for me.ObserverNY (talk) 18:43, 21 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Since I don't have the book in question in front of me I can't tell whether or not it's copyright violation. But, generally if the book is referenced correctly, which it is, then it's not copy vio, and should be fine as a source, and as such I'm assuming good faith from the editor who added it to the article. In my view it's best to look at the edit and not the editor; I don't see evidence of "frenzy" but rather evidence of improvement to the article. As such, in my view La mome's edit is fine. I do, however understand your protest about waiting, but Cinchbug specifically asked for input regarding your edits, and in my view 10 minutes is not an adequate amount of time to elicit input from editors. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 18:56, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

TK - Um, no one except an IB teacher has the book in question in front of them, so you have no basis other than personal bias to accept an editor's declaration that it's not a copyright vio or even accurate. This is why Cinchbug's references are preferable as they are verifiable. Yes, Cinchbug asked for other input but it didn't seem to me like it would be something that would cause a huge brew-ha-ha since none of the actual information was being deleted, only moved, and legitimate citations were properly substituted. If you choose to ignore LaMome's insertion of the World Religion line without discussion when I had created a section SPECIFICALLY questioning the "pilot courses", changing of the Participation edit, not properly naming the new section, and doing so IMMEDIATELY AFTER I was chastised for making edits "too quickly", I respectfully suggest that you are still looking at the situation through a biased lens. Again, what's good for the goose is good for the gander and I will not agree to a truce until LaMome accepts culpability for her actions. ObserverNY (talk) 19:21, 21 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Since the information was added in July and it's had the same references until today, yes I still maintain those references are fine. If an editor buys a book at a bookstore, the book may be used to verify and as a reliable source. Another editor, who doesn't own the book must assume good faith that the edits and source are correct. In this case, I've assumed good faith as I don't have access to the material. You were not "chastised" , but simply reminded that Cinchbug asked for input and 10 minutes was insufficient. Clearly an editor can edit when they want; but if one asks for input, then some reasonable amount of time should be given for input to arrive, in my view. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 19:36, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Capitalization inconsistency

We went through this. It was a huge battle. Yet the article still stands as an inconsistent mess when it comes to capitalization or non-capitalization of IB courses. The Subject Groups are inconsistent, some have both words capped, some don't. There is also a spelling typo and ALL lower case references in the following section:

In 1968, the IB headquarters were officially established in Geneva, Switzerland for the development and maintenance of the IBDP. Alec Peterson became IBO's first Director General, and in 1968 twelve schools in twelve countries partcipated in the IBDP.[8][9][11] The first official guide to the programme containing its syllabus and official assessment information, was published in 1970 and included the theory of knowledge course. The extended essay was introduced in 1978,[12] but creativity, action, service (CAS), although mentioned in guides beforehand, was not specifically identified in the guide until 1989.[12]

Please make up your minds what is going to be the accepted style of capitalization. Once again, I would prefer that we use common usage and not IB's inconsistent style. ObserverNY (talk) 18:32, 21 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Truce

All right, let me do this a bit more formally. I propose that everyone agree to a truce, without any additional pre-conditions, and agree to genuinely strive to do several things:

• 1. Be civil to each other.
• 2. With the exception of minor edits for spelling, punctuation, and the like, propose and discuss changes to the article on the Talk page before actually making the changes.
• 3. Slow down the pace of editing--rapid-fire editing seems to have inevitably led to nastiness around here.

If you agree to try to do this, then please sign below. It is intended that this all be done in good faith.

• CinchBug • 18:50, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

I'll agree to a truce on these terms. Thank you CB & TK for being peacemakers.

Cheers!La mome (talk) 19:51, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Agreed to above and thanks to Cinchbug. Assuming that adding page numbers constitutes minor edits? Truthkeeper88 (talk) 20:38, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

No resolution - please see discussion on Cinchpage's talk. Will compromise if LaMome strikes or removes fraudulent comment from "Certificate Programme" section above. Then I agree to the above terms. Without an honest effort by LaMome to show good faith by removing that which has severely offended a fellow editor, I cannot believe that she is agreeing to this truce in good faith. ObserverNY (talk) 21:00, 21 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

What is this fradulent comment that has offended you so terribly? Can you point it out to me? — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 21:27, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

HelloAnnyong, we're trying to iron this out at my Talk page, if you'd care to join us. Regards, • CinchBug • 21:30, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

...i guess. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 21:36, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

I apologized, TWICE, (this makes THREE times) to LaMome for WP:Outing. She refuses to apologize, as proposed by Cinchbug, for calling me/my editing fraudulent. No truce. ObserverNY (talk) 00:33, 22 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Thank you very much for trying, Cinchbug, TK and HelloAnnyong. ObserverNY (talk) 00:49, 22 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

...okay then. I'm going to take my leave of this article yet again. If you guys need more help, feel free to send me a message on my talk page. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 02:07, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Apology accepted. I sincerely apologize for upsetting you if you perceived what I said as calling you fraudulent.

La mome (talk) 02:15, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks to CB, TK and HA for establishing that my edits were not fraudulent. Apology accepted. ObserverNY (talk) 13:07, 22 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

"To do" list

I propose the following changes to the article:

1. This sentence--Currently, in order to participate in the IBDP students must attend an IB World School-- should be incorporated into the lead paragraph and the word "participation" removed from the "application and authorization" section.

2. The pilot course, formerly known as "ecosystems and societies" is called "environmental systems and societies" and is no longer a pilot course, according to this source

3. The pilot courses and the school-based syllabi should be put back into the subjects section as listed in this source

I won't make any of those changes until all the editors have weighed in here.

I suggest that other editors write their proposals in this section and as they are agreed upon and completed, we can strike through as we go, much like a "to do."

La mome (talk) 12:49, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Alrighty then. So am I the only one who is unable to access www.ibo.org this morning? You know, there's an old saying, "I'm not paranoid, they really ARE out to get me". This is the message I receive: "Operation failed on the data source named ibo4. Reason of failure "[Macromedia][Oracle JDBC Driver]Error establishing socket. Connection refused" I'm pretty sure that means IBO blocked my IP from its main public website. Please let me know if anyone else is having this problem. Thank you. ObserverNY (talk) 13:31, 22 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

First, I applaud ObserverNY and La mome for settling their differences. Well done.

Regarding the IB website, I'm also getting an error. At first it was the same error ObserverNY describes, but now MSIE simply doesn't display the page. Given that there's a note on the OCC main page (before logging in) that says that the OCC is scheduled to be down for maintenance on 23 August (tomorrow) and that I've occassionally run into the same kind of temporary problem at a variety of websites, it seems most likely to me that the main IB website is also down, quite possibly for maintenance. Regards, • CinchBug • 14:54, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Also, I concur with La mome's suggestions. I tend to agree that the pilot courses are probably best-placed in the Subject Groups section, although, as pilot courses, the notion that they share characteristics with the pilot online Diploma Programme also has merit. I'd be interested in hearing some other ideas about this. Regards, • CinchBug • 15:21, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

To alleviate my paranoia, I had a friend check the IBO site and it appears their server is completely down. I recommend that no edits, other than minor spelling or capitalization fixes, be performed until IBO's site is up and running as it serves as the vast majority of citations for this article.

Unlike AP, IB does not provide any sort of online list of its allegedly internationally standardized courses/syllabi. This poses a dilemma when it comes to differentiating what currently constitutes IB courses/exams which are recognized for college credit by universities, and those which are not. I would venture to guess that there is not a university in the world that would currently award anything other than elective credit for either a school-based syllabi IB course OR a "pilot" IB course/exam. We don't even know if actual exams have been developed yet for these "pilot courses". The "online pilot diploma programme" is not currently in effect, there are only 3 "pilot" student courses and it is currently impossible to earn an IB Diploma through this method. Merely slapping the IB label on either of these types of courses does not give them any credibility in terms of rigor. Therefore I am very much opposed to sticking any sort of "pilot" courses into the Subject Group section. When they become officially recognized courses, then they should be added, but not until then.

As to the "leaflet" sources in LaMome's post, I have a couple of questions/observations: 1)what site is this .pdf being pulled from if ibo.org is down? 2) The documents are from 2008 3) All of the course names are in lower case 4) the UWC source I had previously linked but which was removed is from 2009 and lists the course as "ecosystems and societies". http://www.uwc.org/what_we_do/news/see_all_news/marine_science_syllabus.aspx “When the IB decided to replace Environmental Systems with the transdisciplinary course Ecosystems and Societies, I saw this as an opportunity to design an SBS called Marine Science,” explains teacher Laura Verhegge, who developed the course. Therefore, I believe this information is more up to date and correct. ObserverNY (talk) 17:29, 22 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

P.S - Note that the UWC capitalizes the course name Ecosystems and Societies. This is something we can work on until ibo.org is back online and try and reach agreement on. If Pointillist is still around, I would be interested in some feedback as I still maintain that it should be Theory of Knowledge. ;-) ObserverNY (talk) 17:46, 22 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

ObserverNY - ""Operation failed on the data source named ibo4. Reason of failure "[Macromedia][Oracle JDBC Driver]Error establishing socket. Connection refused" I'm pretty sure that means IBO blocked my IP from its main public website."

It's an automatic response from a server when data on that server is not being accessed properly. This is purely an internal IBO issue with their IT systems and will affect all users.

Note: Neither Ecosystems and Societies nor Environmental Systems exist and more. It's Environmental Systems and Societies. --Candy (talk) 18:50, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Since this is not a forum for general discussion of IB Diploma Programme, I will keep my post brief and suggest that others do the same. Once the ibo.org site is back up, you'll see that there are indeed assessments for the pilot courses, such as dance and film and the results are included in the IB data reports. As Candorwien and I have explained, the Environmental Systems course is being phased out and replaced with Environmental systems and societies, which was called "Ecosystems and societies" in the early phases of the pilot. Speculation on college credit, course credibility and rigor of pilot courses and school-based syllabi without providing sources is not relevant to the discussion as it does not address the improvement of the IBDP article, which is the purpose of this talk page.

The "leaflet" is from ibo.org--specifically ibna--and is already listed in our sources. It is provided to colleges/universities in North America. The UWC link quotes a teacher referring to the new course (Environmental systems and societies) under the old name (Ecosystems and societies).

La mome (talk) 21:09, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

The UWC link clearly quotes a teacher referring to: “When the IB decided to replace Environmental Systems with the transdisciplinary course Ecosystems and Societies..." I really don't see how that can be misinterpreted. If Candy or LaMome can provide a 2009 source that identifies the course as Environmental systems and societies then of course we should use that. Until then, I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Speculation on college credit, course credibility and rigor of pilot courses and school-based syllabi without providing sources is not relevant to the discussion as it does not address the improvement of the IBDP article, which is the purpose of this talk page. - That is your opinion to which you are entitled. However, my "speculation" was providing a reason as to why like items should be grouped together within the article for the purpose of improvement, ie: Pilot online programme & Pilot courses vs. already recognized IB courses.

Please address the capitalization issue. Thank you. ObserverNY (talk) 22:44, 22 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

The IB source calls it Environmental systems and societies. It is an IB course. This is the same as the whole "IB Certificate program" issue. Schools call their courses and their programs whatever they like. The pilot courses and the online Diploma Programme pilot are not like items. The courses offered online are not pilot courses, they are mainstream IB courses (ITGS, Economics, to name 2 that I remember). Your speculation is your opinion, to which you are also entitled, however we are not adding information to an encylcopedia based on opinions and speculation.

La mome (talk) 23:15, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

The IB source which you provided, is a year older than the UWC source. As I said earlier, we will simply have to wait until IBO gets its website back online to verify what IB currently calls this course. If the IBO website makes no reference to the course, then from an encyclopaedic standpoint, it seems to me the most recent source would be the one to be used.

A "pilot program" is defined as an "activity planned as a test or trial" http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pilot%20program By IB applying the "pilot" label to some courses and its online programme, IB automatically places them into the same trial category. They are not tried and true items and therefore should be grouped together. There is no guarantee that either the online programme or any of the pilot courses won't be discontinued next year. Just like a pilot pharmaceutical that is "test marketed" to a select group of volunteers, these "products" are not FDA approved and offered to the general public. People may develop severe reactions and the drug may be pulled. Fortunately, IB doesn't have life or death implications so the analogy is not the most apt, but if there is little interest, or if there are particularly bad test results from the pilot courses, IB may have to go back to the drawing board and re-design its "pilots". So if you want to refer to them in the article, by all means, but it should be in its own section. It is interesting information. As to your contention that schools call their courses whatever they want and this is just like the Certificate Program issue, I beg to differ. The UWC source specifically states When the IB decided to replace, not "when we at UWC decided to call it something else". ObserverNY (talk) 23:53, 22 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

ObserverNY - "The IB source which you provided, is a year older than the UWC source." The age of a source doesn't matter in this respect. Surely, the issue is about whether it is correct? Whether or not a UWC created Environmental Systems (now Ecosystems and Societies) is irrelevant to the fact that there is an external course run by the IB called Environmental Systems and Societies (ESS) which exists now. The other courses have been superseded. I suspect the UWC website is a tad out-of-date in this respect which may be explained by the fact that the very final Ecosystems and Societies examination was only in May 2009. The first ESS examinations will be in May 2010. --Candy (talk) 12:43, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Please see my response to your question in the "Pilot Courses" section as it relates to WP:Verifiability. Thank you.ObserverNY (talk) 12:50, 23 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

Environmental systems and societies --IB Guide from the Dwight school.

La mome (talk) 12:56, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Oxford course companion for env. sys. & soc.

La mome (talk) 13:00, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Re: Dwight school link - "All rights reserved. No part of this publication may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system, or transmitted, in any form or by any means, without the prior written permission of the IB, or as expressly permitted by law or by the IB’s own rules and policy. See http://www.ibo.org/copyright." ObserverNY (talk) 13:02, 23 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

I am not suggesting we use the Dwight school ref., just offering proof of what Candy and I have been saying. We can still use the IB guide as a verifiable reference.

La mome (talk) 13:09, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Env. Sys. & Soc. Minor at UCLA -Just FYI- found this to be interesting La mome (talk) 13:13, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

LaMome - please refer to WP:Verifiability and also the section on Self-pub. Furthermore, I am not suggesting that what IB teachers are claiming is "not true", merely that we follow Wikipedia rules for verifiability. Thank you. ObserverNY (talk) 13:14, 23 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

With regards to which source? Please refer to WP:TLDR regarding posts further up on pilot courses. So, I think we can change the name back to Environmental systems and societies, no?

La mome (talk) 13:20, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

LaMome - The Dwight School Guide violates copyright. Your original .pdf's are from 2008. I respectfully requested that we wait for IBO's website to come back online before any such changes are made. Please adhere to the guidelines of the Truce you agreed to. I would also like for other non-IB teacher editors to weigh in on the issue. Thank you. ObserverNY (talk) 13:25, 23 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

It's not the Dwight school's guide, it's the electronic version of the IB Guide for Environmental systems and societies. The hardcopy can be purchased. We can reference the guide, without linking directly to it, as we have done already with many other IB guides. The Oxford source has the course companion, with the title. As I said before, I am not suggesting that we use these sources in our references, just offering proof that the course is indeed called Environmental systems and societies. We can wait for other editors to weigh in, but it seems to me that once again a lot of time and talk page space have been wasted on a simple issue. No need to specify the occupations of editors. In fact, I am pretty sure that is inappropriate. La mome (talk) 13:36, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

I am working very hard to be polite, welcoming and to abide by WP:TRUCE as crafted by Cinchbug. I stated above that I am not accusing you of providing misinformation, however it is proprietary information and not verifiable by non-IB members. Cinchbug, Candorwein, Ewen and you have all identified yourselves as IB teachers who therefore have access to IB material that the average Wikipedia reader does not. There is nothing inappropriate about mentioning that, as it reflects proprietary access. I take offense at your use of WP:TLDR regarding my comments on this talk page and suggest that you avoid WP:Gaming the system.ObserverNY (talk) 13:55, 23 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

A simple google search will provide you (and all readers for that matter) with the guides that are listed in the references. This is no different than any of the other guides we have already listed. In fact, I provided you with the so-called proprietary information, so you can't keep saying you don't have access to it. I take offense at your repeated references to the occupations of other editors, including myself. You apologised for attempting to out me, yet continue to make reference to personal information.

La mome (talk) 14:21, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

DP aims

The very first para states, "The International Baccalaureate Diploma Programme (IBDP) is a two-year educational programme for students aged 16–19 that aims to provide an internationally accepted qualification for entry into higher education."

Two things bother me about this sentence. The first is that the ref used is 5 years old and the IB has moved on significantly since then. The second is that this is only one of the aims in the document. By stressing just one it makes it appear as though this is the only aim of the DP - which clearly it is not. What about expanding it to include all the aims of the DP? --Candy (talk) 12:51, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

It seems to me that a number of the "aims" of the IBDP have been expressed in the Core requirements section of the article. However, if you wish to include other different and more general aims, I think that would be the proper placement for them, not in the overview.ObserverNY (talk) 13:12, 23 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY