User talk:Sandstein

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Today's articles for improvement

Hi there!  :) You previously commented on the talk page for my Articles for Review proposal. I recently discovered that we have a project on Wikipedia called Today's articles for improvement, which actually covers quite a bit of what my proposal was intended to do. I have started a new discussion there to gauge whether the rest of my proposal (creating a process strictly concerned with finding sources for existing articles which don't yet meet the WP:GNG, potentially salvageable articles which have been deleted, articles which have been merged or just redirected due to notability concerns, failed Articles for Creation submissions, user space drafts, article incubator pages, or even articles that have yet to be started) could be made into something workable. Please have a look at that discussion, and add any input there you may have. :) BOZ (talk) 17:58, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Re: Ragnar Lodbrok picture

Please stop adding the picture of the death of Ragnar Lodbrok.

I Understand that this is an encyclopedia, but a new show that millions of people watch called "Vikings" is revolved around this man, and by having this picture here, it spoils the series for the viewers.

If a person is actually interested in this man enough to learn his biography and how he died, they will surely do this, but by having this picture here, it catches people off guard, and is the same as someone writing spoilers in the Youtube comment section.

People are curious when they watch a show, but they tend to realize how to avoid spoilers, by having this picture up, it is forcing it upon them and ruining a series.

Thank you 24.0.131.3 (talk) 23:55, 15 May 2013 (UTC)A

I have to butt in here and say...huh? You wish to remove a nearly 200-year-old image that depicts Ragnar's death from the Ragnar Lodbrok article, because you're worried that people watching the current tv series will be upset if they find out he's dead? Tarc (talk) 00:06, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

It is obvious that he has died, it is supposedly a historical series, but the picture depicts king Ælla of Northumbria's murder of him. In the series, if you are not following it, it is currently revolved around the struggle between the two men, by having this picture shoved into the face of a curious series-watcher, it spoils the future episodes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.0.131.3 (talk) 02:02, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Ok, but that's really besides the point; the Wikipedia does not do spoiler alerts, an does not hide or remove content because some people may not have seen a show or movie yet. Everything from the Game of Thrones to reality tv shows are update pretty much minute-by-minute as plot points, winners, etc...happen. You also cannot keep removing the content over and over once challenged, we have rules above endless reverts. I'd advise that you restore the image yourself and leave this topic alone, otherwise I may have to request an admin such as Sandstein here block your account so we can restore the image uninterrupted by you. Tarc (talk) 02:24, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

I understand, but if I go on the game of thrones article, I definitely know that the first thing I see will not be a picture and description of something that will spoil future episodes. This picture is not necessary for the time being considering a very popular historical TV series is revolving solely around it. Their are other historical pictures of Lodbrok that could be used, I do not see why you should use this certain one. 24.0.131.3 (talk) 03:36, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Tarc, see WP:SPOILER for the explanation. What other images are there?  Sandstein  04:25, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

I understand the situation of spoilers on Wikipedia, but I believe this case is in a class of its own. I can't say which picture can be used since I don't know the ins and outs of Wikipedias image/copyright system, but I feel as though using one that doesn't involve ruining a viewers experience would be highly beneficial to the Vikings fan base. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.0.131.3 (talk) 08:42, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, consensus is clearly against you here. Spoiler policy aside, Ragnar is primarily a legendary figure. That he's also the hero in a TV series is incidental, and we certainly won't make any changes to his article just because of that.  Sandstein  14:22, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Report of interaction ban breach

Hi there Sandstein,

Got a question for you. You know how you put me and Volunteer Marek under an interaction ban, which states that he is forbidden "from alleging that Russavia engaged in misconduct outside the English Wikipedia." (and myself likewise with him).

On 28 April 2013, VM posted this in which he stated:

Whenever I read discussions such as these (and the one at Jimbo's talk page, and Commons) I always end up wondering "where in the world does Wikipedia manage to find the scumbags that manage to make these kinds of comments with a straight face???". The only logical explanation that I can come up with is that there's purposeful trolling going on because there's just no way that such a number of people can be so ethically damaged.

These comments were being made in direct relation to Commons:Commons:Deletion requests/File:Mardi Gras Flashing - Color.jpg which I closed for editors to discuss back on this project. The comments were made after that close by myself.

Given the inflammatory tone and nature of the comments, and the fact that the file under discussion there was something I was directly involved with in my Commons capacity, it leaves no doubt in ones mind that he is accusing myself of "purposeful trolling", and this is directly in breach of the interaction ban that you placed that specifically states[1]:

You are indefinitely banned from interacting with Russavia (talk · contribs), as described in Wikipedia:Banning policy#Interaction ban. For additional clarity, this interaction ban includes (but is not limited to) forbidding you from alleging that Russavia engaged in misconduct outside the English Wikipedia.

Can you please deal with this, as accusing myself of engaging in "purposeful trolling" on Commons is a breach of this interaction ban in both spirit and letter. I don't know if a block is justified or not, but I think at least an indefinite "Commons topic ban" precluding Volunteer Marek from all discussion relating to Commons in all namespaces (including ALL talk pages) is warranted here.

FYI, I ran this by a couple of other admins before making you aware of this, and they were of the belief that it is evident that Marek was talking about myself given the discussion, the nature and tone of the comments, but they suggested bringing it directly to you for enforcement after the expiry of my block; just as IP editors brought an alleged topic ban breach directly to you for enforcement. I don't like having to do this, but there you go. Cheers, Russavia (talk) 14:45, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

How is it a violation of IBAN? VM neither mentions you nor links to any off wiki discussions? Darkness Shines (talk) 14:52, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Reporting a suspected IBAN violation is an exception. And there is no topic ban vio that I can see in those diffs. Darkness Shines (talk) 16:44, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Ignore the proxy IP, which should be blocked. That proxy IP appears to be solely dedicated to harassing Russavia with frivolous complaints.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 17:45, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Russavia, why don't you try setting aside the personal agendas for a while and focus on normal editing activity? Since your most recent block expired you have done little but go after other editors. Even if those comments were some veiled remark about you, and that is not at all clear, they are hardly worthy of the potential drama.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 16:51, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

This is why I have brought it to Sandstein directly and suggested perhaps a Commons topic ban instead of a block; this will allow myself to be able to comment freely on Commons policies and the like, and I have a right to do this on this project given the allegations that are tossed at my home project on a daily basis. It may have been a veiled remark, but given history of antagonism it is clear who it was directed against, and Sandstein knows full well that this is not on; especially as he is the one who set the stricter interaction ban as he did.

If Volunteer Marek has issues relating to Commons, he is free to raise those issues directly on Commons. There is no need to be continually using this project as a battleground, and perhaps it may refocus VM to what is important on our projects, and allow myself to do likewise. There will be plenty of other people available to criticise Commons. That aside, I am now just going to wait for Sandstein to respond and discuss this with him. Russavia (talk) 17:59, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Russavia, your request to enforce the interaction ban against Volunteer Marek is not actionable. Their edit you refer to does not violate the topic ban because it does not make reference to you, either by username or in any other manner that would allow others to identify you as the subject of the statement. I agree with The Devil's Advocate that it would be best for you and all involved if you would distance yourself entirely from your past disputes with others, and focus on editing the encyclopedia again.

You yourself have violated the interaction ban with respect to Volunteer Marek in your message of 17:59 above, because in that message you made reference to Volunteer Marek, and that message does not qualify under the exceptions listed at WP:BAN#Exceptions to limited bans. In enforcement of your interaction ban, I am temporarily blocking you.  Sandstein  19:08, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Of course it is covered under exceptions "Examples include asking an administrator to take action against a violation of an interaction ban by the other party (but normally not more than once), asking for necessary clarifications about the scope of the ban, or appealing the ban for a good reason." Reporting a possible IBAN vio is not a blockable offense and you need to unblock Russavia right now. Darkness Shines (talk) 19:14, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Russavia already reported the alleged interaction ban violation above, at 14:45. The second message at 17:59 did not report anything new, but instead made allegations of misconduct against Volunteer Marek, which is exactly what the interaction ban is intended to prevent. It is exactly because of such situations – to avoid enforcement requests from turning into venues where interaction bans can be evaded and old feuds continued – that the ban policy provides that enforcement requests may be made "normally not more than once". The block is maintained.  Sandstein  19:19, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

...What? This is ridiculous - Russavia suggested a reasonable way to ameliorate the situation and you block him for it? -mattbuck (Talk) 19:58, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes, because in making their suggestion (about whose merits I have no opinion) Russavia violated their interaction ban.  Sandstein  20:13, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Sandstein, I'm not exactly Russavia's biggest fan, but even I think that's an entirely inappropriate block. Please reverse it, or at least ask for wider community input on the issue. --Conti|✉ 20:47, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Russavia is free to appeal the block according to the procedures linked to in the block message. That is the way to gather further input, if needed, about an AE block.  Sandstein  21:34, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Are you intentionally ignoring the possibility of this being discussed (and overturned) on WP:ANI? --Conti|✉ 13:41, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Almost everything is possible on Wikipedia, I've found.  Sandstein  14:59, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Surely an interaction ban bans interactions with a person? Now, there are two ways I can see to look at this: either that is an interaction, in which case it's one which reports a possible violation of the ban and so it is allowed; or it's not an interaction on the grounds that there needs to be two people for an interaction and there's only one here. -mattbuck (Talk) 21:13, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

As outlined above, the infringing message of 17:59 did not report a possible violation of the ban. (The earlier message of 14:45 did report an alleged interaction ban violation, but I am not sanctioning Russavia for that.) You are also mistaken that "there needs to be two people for an interaction": interaction bans specifically prohibit one-sided interactions (such as one editor mentioning the other, as in this case); this is explained on the policy page at WP:IBAN.  Sandstein  21:34, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Sandstein's analysis is correct. — Scott • talk 09:06, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Topic ban violation

Here because the article has this section,and also here because quite a few Eastern European countries are members of EU. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.202.122.140 (talk) 21:31, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

No, the relation of the edits to Eastern Europe is too tenuous. Also I don't like to act on anonymous requests because that is a method of avoiding scrutiny for frivolous or vexatious requests, which this borders on. Please make future enforcement requests with your user account.  Sandstein  05:10, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

User:Yozer1 adding "alleged" to Armenian genocide, et.al.

Judging from these edits,[2][3][4][5], would you warn User:Yozer1 of possible discretionary sanctions regarding Armenian, Azerbaijan and Turkish articles? Thanks. --Kansas Bear (talk) 22:27, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes, these edits are a pretty big WP:NPOV problem, as they are based on the premise that there was no Armenian genocide - which I understand from our article is, at best, a minority position advanced only by the Turkish government and related parties. Warning issued.  Sandstein  13:20, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Whether it is a minority point of view is beside the point. All voices need to be represented if you are claiming a WP:NPOV policy. What do you say of Armenian Genocide denial then? Obviously, reliable sources of academics on the opposite end, and historical archives of an 80 Million people government that dispute the exaggerated claims of some authors and minority activists in the United States and elsewhere need to be considered. Please do your homework carefully before judging. Thank you for your efforts. Yozer1 (talk) 13:50, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

The problem begins when the Armenian Genocide denial position is presented in Wikipedia's voice as the correct position, as you did here. That's contrary to WP:NPOV.  Sandstein  20:30, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

photo credits

I'm sorry I didn't contribute to the RfC: Requiring photo credits in footnotes for copyrighted images until now, and I am sorry to see it isn't going well.

I meant to contribute earlier, but got way layed, and just now saw it again. I'm particularly chagrined because I formulated an opinion before reading your arguments, and then when I saw your points, they were very similar, down to noting the discrete nature of photos makes it different than text.

I'm mulling over whether there are next steps. I think the distinction between text editors and photographers is worth pursuing.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 12:35, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Yep, thanks, though I appreciate it's a rather difficult matter with many aspects to be taken into consideration. Some sort of mouseover solution might be best .. for text and images.  Sandstein  20:28, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Hello!

Hello Sandstein: I'm contacting you since you commented on the Mathsci/D.Lazard AE. I regret to say I know very little of administrators outside WP:Math, and I'm rather ignorant of tools available that I could use to look up the following information for myself. As indicated in my comments there, I am curious to know how many people might be considered as "experts" actively involved in identifying it. I would appreciate any pointers to where I could learn more. Thanks! Rschwieb (talk) 19:43, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't understand what you are asking me about.  Sandstein  20:27, 21 May 2013 (UTC)