Wikipedia talk:Verifiability

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Question

Are these "personal websites"?

• http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/home.html (LacusCurtius)
• http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Egypt/ptolemies/chron/roman/chron_rom_intro.htm (Chris Bennett's Roman chronology)
• http://www.af.lu.se/~fogwall/satie.html (Satie Home page)
• http://www.gfn.com/

Could someone give a definition of "personal website"? Or at least explain what would make the examples above "personal website" or not? --Francis Schonken 07:25, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I would say quickly that I've always felt .edu pages are not personal websites. The university or organization in question has copyright on all of it, yes? Marskell 11:48, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Well that, for instance, is something that's not always clear:

• The LacusCurtius website (.edu) contains a lot of material that has entered the public domain (so, not "copyrightable") - this website has some other complex copyright provisions, visible at http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/HELP/Copyright/home.html - with at least some part of it "copyright © William P. Thayer" (which, FYI, is user:Bill Thayer, so in this case you could simply ask him on his talk page);
• Chris Bennett's pages at cam.ac.uk (".ac.uk" being equivalent of .edu in the UK; ".cam" being the University of Cambridge, see http://www.cam.ac.uk/ ) has "Website © Chris Bennett, 2001-2005 -- All rights reserved" on its pages

So, no, I don't think it can be assumed that such subsites of University websites are all under the copyright of their respective Universities.

Further, I'd like to mention this additional example, in which case the copyright seems to be covered by the Colombia University's general copyright notice exclusively: http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/archives/000077.html - now, this is a blog page, so the fact of being copyrighted by a university does not seem to be the hallmark of reliability for ".edu" pages: LacusCurtius and Chris Bennett's pages (neither copyrighted by the university they depend from) appear to be considered as much more reliable than that other page that falls under the general University's copyright, afaik. --Francis Schonken 12:28, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

University and school sites in general have different areas. Those developed and loaded by the University are not personal; those by different departments or research groups are not personal; most also allow for personal sub-pages or sub-sites written by individual professors, instructors, personnel, and students. Some of the professors and instructors include a cirriculum vitae, published papers, and so on - these are not necessarily "personal". Others are more personal, and student pages are generally speaking always personal. You have to actually look and see what is being presented and who is presenting it. Actual effort, but I am sure anyone with a modicum of intelligence and a few minutes is up to the task. KillerChihuahua^?!? 14:26, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

The question is misguided. "Personal website" in wikispeak means "website without editorial oversight". What we must ask when dealing with scientific subjects isn't what kind of editorial policy any source has, we must ask how the source is regarded by subject experts. Yes, well-regarded sources almost always are peer-reviewed, but we should guard ourselves against the attitude of "it's refereed, it must be true" and "it's not refereed, it can't be true". Dr Zak 14:40, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

• Thayer's site is a personal website. The clue is at the very top of the page and then the very bottom of the page links to [1] which states: "All material on this site ... is copyright William P. Thayer". It is owned and (apparently) its responsibility is Thayer's alone. Wonderful site !
• Chris Benett's site is copyrighted, created and owned by Bennett. It appears in every particular to be a personal website.
• Satie's Home Page appears to be a personal site. Thayer's site is more explicit about copyrights and responsibility for content, but none of these claim to have legal staff which checks for liability, nor is its content opined to be "authoritative" beyond what is viewed on the page and it doesn't say it hired experts who check the site's content for accuracy.
• [2] is a business. It sells its site space to advertisers for profit, it has a Terms of Service, therefore has legal liability for its content. A business has legal responsibilities beyond a personal presentation information, a business owner (even an individual) has obligated himself beyond the responsibilities of a private citizen producing a personal website. * The guideline could use a really clear definition of "personal website" This question comes up again and again in different guises, by different editors. A really clear definition would save a lot of discussion page chatter. Terryeo 16:19, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
  • I agree with Terryeo's analysis -- the first three are personal web sites. -- Dragonfiend 16:36, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

A personal website is very easy to spot. Anyone can make that judgement just by looking at the page. If there is a website that may be borderline or that you are not sure about, discuss on talk page and ask other editors to take a look as well. Note that there is nothing inherently wrong with a personal website, providing it is used as sources of information about themselves in articles about themselves, so long as there is no reasonable doubt about who wrote it as per WP:RS. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 23:56, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

The last example is interesting. I don't think a business's website should be considered any better a source than a "personal" website. The reason we strongly favour newspapers and publishing houses is that we can have some certainty that they exercise editorial control over the material they publish, and will make some effort at fact checking. That cannot be considered true of businesses in general, although they are a degree more reliable than individuals on account of being more scared of being sued! They also tend to have their content checked, but you cannot count on this to the degree you can with the NYT. I'd say that the policy should reflect that (although it's purely an application of common sense) by saying that a business's website can only be relied on to be a source for statements about itself, in precisely the same way as a personal website. The plus for a business website is that there can be little doubt that it wrote the stuff about itself. Grace Note 02:52, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

And about the .edu domain. Even if the university claims copyright over the site, that does not imply that it checks the material on it. I think that academics' sites, unless they reproduce material published elsewhere, should be treated in precisely the same way as anyone else's site. Grace Note 02:54, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I must agree here. This page, for example, is a personal essay on Russian history by an economist. It shares the difficulties of personal websites: it is obviously advocacy, and it disagrees with reliable printed sources on such major details as the years of the famine. Prof. Caplan happened to put this up on his office website, which is .edu; we should treat it exactly as though it had been on his home site. Septentrionalis 17:01, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Protected

There seems to be an awful lot of reverting here. Can you all try to sort it out at this talk page? It looks bad to have an edit war over a policy page. I've protected the page for the moment. AnnH ♫ 00:48, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks ML. There's a strong consensus for protection above: #Ten changes a day?. Jayjg ^(talk) 00:55, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Heck, I don't even think most of us care that whether the wrong version was protected. Stop the madness!  ;-) Robert A.West (Talk) 01:00, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Same here. Thank you, Ann. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 01:19, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Ann. I think the version we have here is relatively stable and we really should talk it out before making changes. Grace Note 02:47, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I would prefer the 3 policies, this NPOV and NOR be protected all of the time and changes only happen to them after concensus on their discussion page. Of course, that would require about a once a day visit by someone who could implement agreed upon changes. With so many editors speaking so many languages, some organization is better than none, some stability better than none. Terryeo 19:26, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I second the motion, FWIW. Robert A.West (Talk) 00:23, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I also agree. -Will Beback 00:34, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree as well. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 05:28, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm on board. FeloniousMonk 05:43, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Count me in. AvB ÷ talk 08:59, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I also agree with this idea. Yamaguchi先生 09:25, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree with it too. This makes it a more formal (and polite) procees as well. --Siva1979^{Talk to me} 18:44, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree too. The policy pages are themselves cited so often in disputes all over Wikipedia that we cannot afford to have their content messed up in edit wars arising from those disputes! --Coolcaesar 20:18, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

proposed addition

In the section on "sources" perhaps we should add, at the outset, that "When adding a verifiable content it is essential to provide enough information that the source can be found and checked. The more precise the content, the more precise the source must be." or something like that. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:57, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

What would this addition address, Slrubenstein? Is that not implied already in the existing text? ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 14:32, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree it is implied. I just wonder if we could benefit from something more explicit. it is not a big deal and if no one is enthusiasitc about this we can drop it. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:38, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Student Newspaper

Is a student newspaper a valid primary source of a racial slur in regards to a living persons page? A student newspaper has said that a particular media personality made a racial slur to a teen. This quote is not attributed at any other location other then blogs that link back to the student newspaper. Is this a valid primary source under these conditions? --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 16:41, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

This source will be only valid on an article about this specific student's newspaper. Most definitively not as a source for a biography of a living person. See: WP:BLP. Also note that personal blogs are not acceptable as secondary sources. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 17:10, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Conflicting Sources

What should we do when multiple verifiable and reliable sources contain conflicting information? Peteresch 17:24, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

We report the conficting information by citing these sources and attributing the conficlting POVs to those that hold them. Read WP:NPOV#The_neutral_point_of_view. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 17:26, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Almost true. If it is a scientific or medical subject we report what the scientific consensus is, citing a recent, authoritative review. If no consensus has emerged yet we report that fact and state who holds what view (and why). We also report significant minority views but avoid giving undue weight to them. See WP:NPOV#Undue_weight. Dr Zak 17:43, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. Well said. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 21:28, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

First steps toward revising the introduction

Is anyone wed to the "threshhold of is verifiability, not truth" line in the introduction? It serves to obscure the matter by a catchy slogan rather than just directly stating what the policy is. —Centrx→talk • 20:32, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I like it because it gets straight to the heart of the policy, viz. we report what reliable sources say, not what is true. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 21:16, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

The policy specifies the standard for included information, that the standard is not individuals asserting "I think this is true". Abstractly, Wikipedia is to include some sort of truth because it is about knowledge in an encyclopedia, but the way that knowledge is determined is by reliable sourcing, and everything in the encyclopedia is true in its basis on authoritative sources. Wikipedia is certainly not supposed to be for false information, it's just that without verifiability the criteria for inclusion is what individual editors think is true or false. Choosing not to have the cryptic statement "The threshhold is verifiability, not truth" in the first line of the page, does not mean that the page entails that Wikipedia is trying to find the ultimate, Platonic, in-itself, absolute truth of the universe. —Centrx→talk • 22:55, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Unlike SlimVirgin, I don't like it because it has the unintentional side effect of implying that truth and verifiability are mutually exclusive, which runs contrary to what most people believe. It was confusing and seemingly contradictory the first time I read it; my immediate thought was "huh? how can you verify something without ascertaining its truth/general correctness?" The meaning was adequately explained elsewhere in the policy, but it would be better to just make it clear from the outset that the kind of verifiability WP cares about is that which doesn't use the commonly-held criterion of truth as the standard against which statements are "verified", but rather uses the criterion of "reliable sources" as defined and continually refined by the WP:RS guidelines.

If the policy were mine to rewrite, it would be reduced to a set of simple, normative statements as bullet points, along with an overarching rationale that justifies the policy and explains the goal that the policy is intended to work toward. Rationales and informative explanations of each individual point would be easily distinguished from the normative statements. Anything making a statement about the relative reliability of specific types of sources in specific circumstances (e.g., self-publishers, and articles about them) would be completely out of scope since it belongs in WP:RS, not here, IMHO. —mjb 00:41, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

The point of using "verifiability, not truth" is that too many editors want to add what they "know" to be "true" to an article, even if they can't provide references. "Truth" can be a very slippery concept. We are much better off insisting on including only what can be found in reliable sources, and not trying to define "truth". -- Donald Albury^(Talk) 02:14, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

I understand that, and I'm not arguing against that. The phrasing is problematic because "verifiability" has connotations of "truth"-ascertaining. Haven't you been following the voluminous prior discussion on this point over the past few weeks?—mjb 07:13, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

I've been following the discussion here off and on for more than a few weeks, and I haven't seen anything said here recently that hasn't been said before. The point is, if we concentrate on making sure that only verifiable information is included in Wikipedia, it will come a lot closer to being an accurate source of information than if we let editors insert what they "know" to be "true" without requiring verifiable sources. So, our position has to be that verifiability trumps truth; truth does not trump verifiability. -- Donald Albury^(Talk) 10:53, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

The way I see it, "threshhold is verifiability, not truth" gives editors trying to learn more about WP's modus operandi two well-defined points on this continuum. This is where they learn which of these points they should use as cut-off when dealing with a scale that as a whole is, indeed, slippery at best. AvB ÷ talk 11:58, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

This is all the more important since many new editors seem to arrive here with lofty notions about an encyclopedia that tells "The Truth." I presume some of them got those ideas using Wikipedia for a while and becoming impressed with its encyclopedic treatment of subjects, while others simply clicked on the edit this page button to correct something they "knew" to be "wrong". AvB ÷ talk 12:06, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

I think the "policy in a nutshell" should, with the some modifications, be the basis for a first paragraph. This is the purpose of an introduction. WP:NPOV just repeats the "policy in a nutshell" in its introduction. The first paragraph of WP:NOR would not make much sense to an average person without reading the "policy in a nutshell", which on that page serves as the introduction. An introduction should be direct and a summary, which is what the "policy in a nutshell" is trying to be. Either the "policy in a nutshell" has to be recognized as the first paragraph of the article, bolded and separated as the over-all description, and the rest of the introduction doesn't need to repeat it, or the policy in a nutshell is just a duplicate of the first paragraph of the introduction. —Centrx→talk • 22:03, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

In my view, the centre of the dispute over this page and over this policy as a whole is that "verifiable" most commonly means "checkable as true". Its meaning contains an idea of truth that we don't want to convey. This would be resolved, I think, simply by renaming the policy WP:Checkability and rewriting it to be clear that what we want is that any information/material/stuff/"facts"/views/whatever in our articles must be checkable against reputable sources without reference to whether it is true. Again, this is a solution that is so stunningly simple and obvious that it has no hope whatsoever of being accepted because it's just so much more fun to battle over the most meaningless bollocks we can come up with. Grace Note 04:58, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

First, verifiability just as much means checkable as "accurate" or "real". Further, it doesn't just mean "checkable anywhere", it means checkable at reliable sources, sources probably true and accurate. Just what is wrong with truth? It still means checkable, and it excludes editors from inserting their individual notions of truth. —Centrx→talk • 08:33, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

That's the problem. "Truth" doesn't prevent the Fooian editors from insisting that their POV is The Truth, and all contrary information is Barian lies. For an example, see Talk:Imbros and Tenedos, where all too much of the discussion has consisted of Greek editors saying: The island's name is Tenedos [implied because it's Greek]; and Turkish editors saying: The island's name is Bozcaada, because that's the official name [implied: because it's Turkish]. Septentrionalis 17:12, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Regardless of the "verifiability, not truth" phrase, the policy still states that information on Wikipedia requires citations to reliable sources, and that an editor's individual opinion is subject to those sources. The particular island example is probably not so much the purview of WP:Verifiability as much as WP:NPOV or some guideline about naming places: probably, reliable Greek sources are prevalent for the first name and reliable Turkish sources are relevant for the other. —Centrx→talk • 02:07, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't understand your response. "Verifiability" clearly has a broader meaning than "checkability". They overlap but the latter is narrower. And I did not say it means "checkable" anywhere. That's a rather silly comment to make because obviously the same quibble would apply to "verifiability" (one cannot "verify" our articles anywhere either). What you are not grasping, Centrx, is that while "verifiability" might mean what you claim in Wikispeak, it does not in the common parlance, and it would be better to write our policies in the common language. Not that we ever will. I'm not fool enough to think that. Grace Note 08:13, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

How about this?

All information included in Wikipedia must be verifiable. The criterion for inclusion is verifiability, not truth. We seek truth but do not lead the way. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader must be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, because Wikipedia does not publish original thought or original research. Fred Bauder 02:19, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Erm, no. We do not seek truth, we publish beliefs. The Wikipedia of 2000 years ago was Pliny's Natural History, who reported that the Blemmyes lived in Africa and, well, other things, that he found in his sources. Dr Zak 02:35, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps "report" would be better, but perhaps the policy should not talk about "truth" at all, except to discourage editors from thinking they have the truth. However, if the phrase "verifiability, not truth" is kept, it needs some clarification which possibly requires statements about truth, and still, we do in a way seek the truth. If there were reliable accounts of Africa that discount the existence of Blemmyes there, then those would be included as well, and a statement about Pliny's history would be, as is still done: "According to Pliny,...". —Centrx→talk • 03:09, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Dr. Zak. "We seek truth" is a huge can of worms, as it will force us to define what "truth" is. Better to stick with what we do best: describing the assertions of truth by others as published by reliable sources. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 03:03, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, we publish knowledge, well-founded belief. Fred Bauder 04:39, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

"Publishing well-founded belief" isn't the same as "seeking truth". I'm not so sure about the "truth" bit either, as Wikipedia is in the business of knowledge. To make that quite clear, how about "We do not seek truth, instead we publish well-founded belief". Dr Zak 04:57, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I am not comfortable with "We do not seek truth", after all, trying to find out what has happened is the point of consulting a compilation of published knowledge. Fred Bauder 11:11, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Ideally, Wikipedia conveys knowledge, which is true. Verifiability establishes that such knowledge must be found in reliable sources and not individual heads. —Centrx→talk • 11:17, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Jeezus. Instead of writing "verifiable in this context means...", why not use a word that does not need its context defined? Fred, I don't think we should mention the t-word at all. We do not seek the truth. That would be a vain quest, because as has been noted, there are often several different truths! We just report what others have claimed the truth is. All that this policy needs to say is that you must be able to check that "stuff" in here has appeared elsewhere, where "stuff" is whatever word we come up with for the substance of what articles contain. Grace Note 08:13, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Try again; how about this?

All information included in Wikipedia must be verifiable. The criterion for inclusion is verifiability. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader must be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source. Material which has not yet been published in a reliable source may not be included in a Wikipedia article.

Wikipedia:Verifiability is one of Wikipedia's three content-guiding policies. The other two are Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Jointly, these policies determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in the main namespace. They should not be interpreted in isolation from one another, and editors should therefore try to familiarize themselves with all three. These three policies are non-negotiable and cannot be superseded by any other guidelines, or by editors' consensus. Their policy pages may be edited only to better reflect practical explanation and application of these principles. Fred Bauder 17:31, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Removal of truth

Did I miss something? I don't recall seeing a consensus for removing truth from the intro. I won't revert yet, but I bet someone else will shortly. -- Donald Albury^(Talk) 17:46, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Early on in my Wikipedia experience I edited some at truth. Not a good move, as I was soon butting heads with Larry Sanger. I find the criticisms above regarding the use of truth in the introduction pale shadows of the difficulties which can ensue. I find it a commonplace that some things which are true are simply not a part of "knowledge", published knowledge at least. Many of these insights arise from personal experience. Fred Bauder 17:53, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

"We seek truth but do not lead the way" was a weird thing to have in the opening paragraph. Good edit to remove it. I suggest that "Verifiability, not truth" is an important thing to stress, and I wouldn't want to see it disappear. Jkelly

"Verifiability, not truth" is a good capsule summary of the policy, marred only by our somewhat idiosyncratic and frequently misunderstood definition of verifiability. We certainly do not "seek truth." Jimbo at one point criticized QuakeAid for having too much "investigative reporting" in it. (QuakeAid is or was a dubious enterprise claiming to be a charity; as originally created the article had the appearance of self-promotion; editors proceded to give it a neutral point of view... all sourced to the hilt... but with excessive vigor). We glory in articles on Psychokinesis, Bates Method, and the Adams motor. We report what others have published about these topics, trying to give reasonable balance. "Seeking truth" is counterproductive to what we are trying to do. We seek an encyclopedia that can be trusted both by those who do not believe that the Adams motor is a genuine perpetual-motion device and those who do. Dpbsmith (talk) 18:54, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I think that ""Verifiability, not truth" is an important thing to stress, and I wouldn't want to see it disappear." perhaps could be dealt with in a section further down the page. Verifiability, not truth, could perhaps be the header. Fred Bauder 19:06, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

This is, in fact, the situation, Wikipedia:Verifiability#Verifiability.2C_not_truth. Fred Bauder 19:08, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Usually, VNT means that there are true statements that cannot be included; however, there is a persistent minority that seem to feel that VNT means that falsehoods can be included, just because someone said them. Is there a way to emphasize more clearly that, for the most part, verifiability is a stronger constraint than truth? Robert A.West (Talk) 23:07, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree. If everyone insists that this slogan is included, it must explain that the threshhold of verifiability is higher than the threshhold of truth. —Centrx→talk • 23:14, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

We will have information about the Virgin Birth and Mary, Mother of God. Fred Bauder 23:39, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Huh? You mean like this: Virgin Birth and Mary, mother of Jesus? -- Donald Albury^(Talk) 23:56, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it's a good illustration. The Virgin Birth is either true, or it is not. Neither position can be asserted as fact in Wikipedia, because neither is verifiable: therefore, Wikipedia policy prevents a true statement (as well as a false one) from being included. The statement that the Roman Catholic Church has made the Virgin Birth an Article of Faith is both true and verifiable, and may be included. Robert A.West (Talk) 00:51, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Falsehoods certainly are included "just because someone said them."

That is, they are included in the form "A said B about C," where B may well be false, but "A said B about C" has been published by a reliable source and is thus quite likely true.

See Hollow Earth theory for an example that is probably less contentious than most.

The person who says B has to be important, of course, and it must be demonstrated that B represents a belief system held by a reasonably large number of people. And we tell the reader who said B, identify the published source, and give the reader sufficient apparatus to make a judgement for themselves. ("A said B about C. Also, D said A is a nutcase.") Dpbsmith (talk) 02:01, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

But, the truth-value of the direct statement "A said B about C" is completely unrelated to the truth-value of the indirect statement, B. Since the direct statement, not the indirect, is the actual assertion, no falsehood is communicated unless A did not say B about C, in which case the assertion should fail verifiability. Of course, we may be relying on Q, who quotes A as saying B about C, and Q may be wrong, but if we believe Q, no reasonable policy will guard against its inclusion. Robert A.West (Talk) 02:57, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Mary, mother of Jesus is actually a very bad title, using, as it does, the heretical doctrine of the Nestorians, a decidedly minority viewpoint. Fred Bauder 03:33, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

This is an NPOV, not a Verifiability issue. The one attribute of Mary that Catholics, Protestants, Nestorians and unbelievers agree on is that she is the mother of Jesus of Nazareth in all forms and interpretations of the narrative. But, again, this is a distraction. Robert A.West (Talk) 16:44, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Editing while protected

Could admins please quit abusing their privilege and editing this article while it is protected? The rest of us have to try to sort out the content here. To watch you impose your views when we cannot sticks in the craw. Grace Note 08:15, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

What formulation do you prefer and why? Fred Bauder 12:06, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Can someone unlock this so that Fred's bizarre removal of Wikipedia's best know policy phrase can be reverted. Marskell 13:16, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

OK, that came out snarky. But per Grace, it seems to be gaming the system against non-admins to have this locked down and then have admins altering the intro. Marskell 13:28, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Changes must be agreed on the discussion page before implementing. —Centrx→talk • 13:32, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't see agreement. All the edits accomplished were introducing a redundant new sentence ("All information included in Wikipedia must be verifiable. The criterion for inclusion is verifiability."--we don't need both) and the removal of "not truth". Marskell 13:41, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I don't like admin-bashing, but in this case Fred Bauder, acting without a clear consensus, has used his admin status to impose his preferences on a policy while it is protected. -- Donald Albury^(Talk) 13:54, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

This is a pretty blatant case of admin abuse. I don't think they come much clear-cut than this. Q: Is the page protected? A: yes. Q: Is an admin editing the page (other than removing vandalism)? A: yes. Pity that wikipedia doesn't have any real way of dealing with this sort of abuse. - O^O

Perhaps Fred could revert himself. Marskell 15:14, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

What I will do is post a note on wikien-l and see if we can get some more input. Fred Bauder 18:19, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Justify this

Changed my mind and reverted, but please explain why:

The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader must be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, because Wikipedia does not publish original thought or original research.

Wikipedia:Verifiability is one of Wikipedia's three content-guiding policies. The other two are Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Jointly, these policies determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in the main namespace. They should not be interpreted in isolation from one another, and editors should therefore try to familiarize themselves with all three. These three policies are non-negotiable and cannot be superseded by any other guidelines, or by editors' consensus. Their policy pages may be edited only to better reflect practical explanation and application of these principles.

is better than:

All information included in Wikipedia must be verifiable. The criterion for inclusion is verifiability. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader must be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source. Material which has not yet been published in a reliable source may not be included in a Wikipedia article.

Wikipedia:Verifiability is one of Wikipedia's three content-guiding policies. The other two are Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Jointly, these policies determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in the main namespace. They should not be interpreted in isolation from one another, and editors should therefore try to familiarize themselves with all three. These three policies are non-negotiable and cannot be superseded by any other guidelines, or by editors' consensus. Their policy pages may be edited only to better reflect practical explanation and application of these principles.

Fred Bauder 18:35, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

(For those who find collation a nuisance, here's the diff. The second paragraph is unchanged.)

• I don't particularly care about threshold, but criterion is not really an improvement. If all of our editors knew what "criterion" means, we would have fewer problems.
• I like not truth; most of the cranks I meet don't care about details like citation or evidence because they are telling the world The Truth and using Wikipedia as their megaphone.
• Material which has not yet been published in a reliable source may not be included in a Wikipedia article may be justifiable as repetition for emphasis; but it displaces the reasons for verifiability. Both might be reasonable. I suppose the explicit prohibition may be valuable. Septentrionalis 19:17, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

As above re: 'threshold' and 'truth'. The mention of truth is important to retain, because the people who need to read this policy tend to be under the mistaken impression that they can publish anything they believe to be true. I just object to the juxtaposition of "verifiability" with "not truth" in an overly terse phrase, for reasons stated earlier. More verbose phrasing would fix the counterintuitive implication that verifiability and truth are mutually exclusive, but moving toward verbosity rubs some people the wrong way and tends to elicit cries of 'redundant', a rejection that seems to have the effect of dismissing the cause for concern altogether. :/ —mjb 20:47, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I object to saying "The criterion", because Verifiability is not the sole criterion: the statement must avoid original research and be NPOV, at minimum, and must earn its keep with style, relevance, etc. While "The threshold" is not perfect in this regard, it suggests that we let verifiable statements in the door for an interview, but that we are not obliged to let them take up residence unless they meet other criteria. Robert A.West (Talk) 21:03, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

That's a good way of putting it, Robert. :-D SlimVirgin ^(talk) 21:07, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

"These three policies are non-negotiable and cannot be superseded by any other guidelines, or by editors' consensus. Their policy pages may be edited only to better reflect practical explanation and application of these principles."

Huh? Was there a coup d'etat while I was out working? Kim Bruning 22:46, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

New template

I have created a new template, {{failed verification}} that bears the same relation to {{citecheck}} that {{fact}} bears to {{verify}}. This will help distinguish at a glance among three cases:

1. You provided no source.
2. I have a source that disputes yours.
3. Your source does not support your edit.

I can think of a couple of articles where this template could help focus on the actual point of dispute. Robert A.West (Talk) 19:27, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

No binding decisions

I mentioned this above already, but the page appears to be protected so I'll have to ask someone else to fix it.

"These three policies are non-negotiable and cannot be superseded by any other guidelines, or by editors' consensus. Their policy pages may be edited only to better reflect practical explanation and application of these principles."

Could someone look at this? There's some rather misleading text on there at the moment. Things like non-negotiability and no editing this page and other such nonsense that don't really go well with Wikipedia:No binding decisions. Even the foundation issues are theoretically negotiable (though admittedly not so much in practice).

Kim Bruning 20:06, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

• How about:

The principles of these three policies are non-negotiable and cannot be superseded by any other guidelines. Consensus by the editors of an article does not supersede these policies; all articles must follow them.

—Centrx→talk • 20:40, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

They are quite negotiable, and can be superseded by anything. Consensus by the editors of an article can go a long way too.

You might want things to be different, but guidelines are descriptive, not prescriptive, so you can't actually just make things up.

Of these guidelines, NPOV is the hardest to argue with, but at times even the neutral point of view guideline has been discussed. Kim Bruning 20:58, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. This is not a mere guideline; this is the fundamental, essential property of Wikipedia. Encyclopedias in general, and this encyclopedia specifically, are not written from various biased points of view, nor do they premiere research, and they are based on authoritative sources.

This is the theory, this is the practice, this is the enforced policy. The overwhelming majority of Wikipedia editors follow these principles, though they may not necessarily agree on their exact practical implications. If an article is not written according to these policies, it is revised to be in accord with these policies. If a topic is a theory out of someone's head, or if it is impossible to verify, its article is deleted. If a tract cannot be rewritten to be neutral, it is deleted. This is done by editors, this is done by administrators, this is done by the owners of the servers. See also [3] and [4].

If you mean that it is "negotiable" insofar as a few people do try to flout or negotiate it on articles, the end result is still that these policies are followed; on a wiki the article may for a time not follow the policy, but this does not mean that the policy is overridden. If you mean that it is "negotiable" insofar as editors refine the policy pages, this does not mean that the principle itself is not followed. "Discussion" of the policy or principle does not mean that is not the policy and principle.

This page must convey to article editors that they are obliged to follow this policy; it must convey to policy editors that they are obliged to follow the principle. Any revision of these principles would not be the same process by which this policy page is revised, and it would need to actually convince those thousands upon thousands of editors who agree with it, among them those well-respected, long-standing members of the community who administer and take part in administering the site and the encyclopedia. —Centrx→talk • 21:45, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is a volunteer organisation. How do you propose to enforce anything on volunteers? Kim Bruning 22:43, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

You revert their edits and stop allowing them to contribute. Titoxd^(?!?) 22:46, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Volunteers are a precious commodity. So that's probably not the best option in the long run. Any other ideas? Kim Bruning 22:49, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

An organization that doesn't stick to its minimum standards won't attract many volunteers. Any ideas from you? Titoxd^(?!?) 22:53, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I might have one or two. Kim Bruning 23:19, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Supporting Kim on this one. Also the current "freezing" of the WP:V page in a way that only sysops can edit it seems in contradiction with the outcome of the poll held not so long ago at Wikipedia:Editing policy pages: no, it is not OK to make policy pages only editable by sysops on a long-term base. WP:NPOV can do without it (I don't think it was ever protected for more than a few weeks), I don't see why WP:V couldn't.

See also my last comment at Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources#Bulletin boards, wikis, and posts to Usenet. --Francis Schonken 13:31, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

It was largely, if not entirely, because of you that the page had to be protected. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 14:33, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Centrx and Titoxd above. An unverifiable encyclopedia is worthless. WP:NBD does not contradict WP:V, as WP:NBD says "some decisions [by Jimmy Wales, arbcom, and the Foundation] are binding until those who made the decision recall it," Jimmy Wales says WP:NPOV is non-negotiable, and WP:V complements and is required by WP:NPOV. As far as editors who continually introduce unverifiable POV material being a "precious commodity," I disagree. -- Dragonfiend 14:59, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I don't see what would be lost by enforcing policy. Anyone who edits and inserts their personal opinion is not volunteering for Wikipedia. Are you proposing that each article be fiefdoms of editors who can do whatever they want? That's what happens if there is no policy. —Centrx→talk • 07:14, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

If you scroll back, you will see that I "proposed" some policy.^[1] REAL policy in fact, of the take-it-or-leave-it-in-practice variety.^[2]

Verifiability is a very important content guideline, certainly. :-) I'm just opposed to inflating it past the level of fundamental policy. :-P Kim Bruning 12:24, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

[1]I've mentioned foundation issues, a written policy and consensus across all mediawiki projects, and therefore also the actual mandate for wikipedia; I've also mentioned no binding descisions, an unignorable meta-rule that applies on practically all public wikis, including wikipedia.

[2] In theory, these policies are still negotiable. Technically, that's what you're trying to do now, I suppose. I'm just not letting you get away with it. ;-)

Once the principles become negotiable, however, it becomes no longer an "encyclopedia". Insofar as the principles may be negotiated out, Wikipedia becomes something essentially other than what it is, always has been, and was intended to be. —Centrx→talk • 20:12, 15 July 2006 (UTC)