Talk:The Troubles

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Lead sentence

"This protest campaign was met with violence by loyalists who viewed it as a republican stalking horse." Would it not be more appropriate to use the word "Unionist" in place of "loyalist" and "force" in place of "violence" in this sentence as it was initially the Stormont Government, that used force to try to contain the street demonstrations. -- PBS (talk) 13:02, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

A tricky one to try and summarise in a sentence in the lead, PBS. Certainly, there was loyalist violence, as it says in the article: "Loyalists (especially members of the UPV) attacked some of the marches and held counter-demonstrations in a bid to get the marches banned"; "At Burntollet Bridge the marchers were attacked by about 200 loyalists, including some off-duty police officers, armed with iron bars, bricks and bottles in a pre-planned ambush"; "the RUC, backed by loyalists, tried to storm the Bogside." It could be argued that the Stormont government, per se, did not use force, that it only banned marches. The RUC (police) used force/violence officially (batonning the October 1968 march), unofficially (the night-time incursion into the Bogside in January 1969), and semi-officially (the April 1969 raid in which Samuel Devenny was beaten, the aforementioned "storming" of the Bogside in August 1969 together with a loyalist mob). If you can get all that into a pithy sentence in the lead, then by all means do so. Scolaire (talk) 11:45, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

The problem stems from the next sentence: "This eventually led to the deployment of British troops, initially to support the police and protect Catholic civilians, and subsequent warfare over the next three decades". This sentence in itself is problematic, but the two sentences juxtaposed carries the implication that the Stormont Government was a neutral actor in the events. Part of the reason for deploying troops was precisely because the security forces of Northern Ireland were not perceived as neutral in Westminster, it seen was not primarily as few rotten apples in system, but a systemic social problem, not just confined to the security forces. That may or may not have been true, but both Westminster, and more so Dublin, saw it that way. These two sentences in the lead are therefore misleading. -- PBS (talk) 12:12, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

I think the government aspect is covered adequately by the first sentences in that paragraph and we're much better off not sticking the government aspect yet again into the sentence aboout the loyalist reaction to the marches. Dmcq (talk) 12:20, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

PBS, as I say, you're welcome to propose an improved wording that more clearly describes the situation (just changing "met with violence by loyalists" to "met with force by unionists" wouldn't do that). The lead in general is woefully inadequate. It deals with the origins of the conflict in 55 words and the subsequent 30 years in seven! It's been tweaked often enough down the years, but it needs some serious hard work to improve it. Scolaire (talk) 15:03, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

Looking at that second sentence again, "to support the police and protect Catholic civilians" is very badly phrased indeed. It suggests that the army was supporting the police, who in turn were protecting Catholics, when in fact the opposite is true. Officially, the troops were deployed "to aid the civil authorities"; in fact they were deployed to get between the police and the civilians. I would favour re-writing that. Scolaire (talk) 16:53, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

Agree with that about the second sentence okay, but I think overall the lead is about the right size for the article. It doesn't have to go into everything. Dmcq (talk) 18:24, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

The sentence does seem a little one-sided, suggesting that republicans protested peacefully whilst unionists used violence, when the body of the article (and other sources) explain that the origins are more complex. Certes (talk) 11:20, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

This article is biased

There was no discrimination against Catholics in Northern Ireland. People could not get jobs due to the recession. (2A00:23C4:6384:600:30E6:B0B6:F10E:9F52 (talk) 12:00, 20 August 2017 (UTC))

Oooh! It all makes so much sense now! Thanks for clarifying everything! Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 13:31, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Most IRA terrorists were just unemployed, uneducated people with nothing to do. (2A00:23C4:6384:600:30E6:B0B6:F10E:9F52 (talk) 14:10, 20 August 2017 (UTC))