Talk:Criticism of Swaminarayan sect

Verifiability

In verifying the statements in this article, could you please list the page number referenced for this sentence, “Swaminarayana is also being criticised for being supportive of the caste system”? I was looking in the chapter and couldn’t seem to find it. Moksha88 (talk) 06:06, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

Moksha88 click on the link, you’ll be landed on the page which states this.— Harshil ^{want to talk?} 06:56, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

Page numbers are missing for the citations from Kirin Narayan's book and a reference is needed for the claim "Swaminarayan was criticized because he received large gifts from his followers and dressed and traveled as a Maharaja even though he had taken the vows of renunciation of the world. Apollo1203 (talk) 13:03, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

@Harshil169: Kirin Narayan source still needs page numbers. If you could tell me the chapter name, or page range, I can deliver you a PDF of chapter from Paywall database, so that you can add page numbers. Or you can use an online copy on Google books. --Gazal world (talk) 20:36, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

@Gazal world: Let me give some time. When I opened this book in the Google book then page numbers were not visible and others pages were not in preview. What we have to do is searching by words. Regards,— Harshil ^{want to talk?} 02:28, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

Contradictory Claims

As I was verifying the source, Chapter 6 (Sahajanand Swami's Approach to Caste), in the same reference used to cite “Swaminarayana is also being criticised for being supportive of the caste system,” contains many statements that refute that Swaminarayan was supportive of the caste system. For example: "[Sahajanand Swami's] principles of atma and Paramatama undergirded Sahajanand Swami's rejection of caste discrimination and distinction" (page 125). This is contradictory to what is being stated in this article. Apollo1203 (talk) 13:16, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

I have added the page number for the quote cited in the article. As I have used the Oxford Scholarship Online copy, I have changed the URL from Google book to Oxford Scholarship, which is behind the paywall database. If you want to refer the chapter, feel free to ask me, I will deliver you a PDF of the chapter through mail. Thanks. --Gazal world (talk) 20:33, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

Introduction Verifiability

Removed the sentence ‘situation of women in the Swaminarayan sect’ due to lack of source and no mention in the body of the article. This violates policy WP:VERIFIABILITY.Treehugger8891 (talk) 01:35, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

I have reinstated it as Kajal Oza Vaidhya had recently took a dig at Nilkanth varni for situation of women.-- Harshil ^{want to talk?} 04:49, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Dayanand Saraswati's opinion: [WP:FRINGE], [WP:UNDUE]?

@Harshil169: I was able to find Kirin Narayan's book and realize your excerpts differed from what was in the text. I therefore edited it in accordance with WP:NOR, specifically WP:STICKTOSOURCE. In reviewing the actual context from which this assertion is cited, could you please clarify why including his opinion is not WP:UNDUE or WP:FRINGE based on the following, "In the Satyarth Prakash, first issued in 1875, Dayananda synthesized the views that he had delivered orally in lectures through north India. Sure enough, in this book I found the story that Swamiji had told, though in a very different form. The story appears in chapter 11, "A Refutation and Advocation of Indian Religions," which presents an unabashedly biased history of various sects within Hinduism. There are spirited exposes of the supposed logical absurdity in the mythology surrounding various deities; there are tirades against Gurus and sarcastic descriptions of the average ascetic's conduct. Many parts of the book are in dialogue form. When Swami Dayananda is asked about the Swami Narayan sect, he launches into a description of the founder's wiles." (141)? Thank you Moksha88 (talk) 02:33, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

@Moksha88: We’re not here to check who bashed someone and who wrote biased history. We’re here to write it down what author or other person said about sect. It’s not our duty to check their bias. I wrote Wikipedia article in disappointing and Neutral tone but I can’t expect authors outside Wikipedia to be Neutral. If they’re then we wouldn’t have opinions at all. — Harshil ^{want to talk?} 04:35, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Let me clarify the edits I made yesterday. Looking at page 143, there is no mention of a year of either when he made these statements nor when the Swaminarayan sect was established on this page. The closest thing I can find to the text is this statement, "In his view, it was a historical fact that Sahajananda decked himself out as Narayan to gain disciples," which is what I think you mean to say by including this quote, "It is historical fact that Sahajananda Swami presented himself as God to increase the number of disciples in the sect."

Is this right? If so, by adding words that aren't in the source, it's original research [WP:NOR, specifically WP:STICKTOSOURCE]. Therefore the only thing I could conclude from page 143 is the edit I made yesterday, "Hindu reformer Dayananda Saraswati questioned the acceptance of Sahajanand Swami." We can ask @Gazal world: to verify if you feel I'm incorrect. Otherwise, please cite other pages and/or sources from which you can draw other information if you wish to develop this opinion.

If you can't develop the notability and relevance of his opinion, his opinion is WP:UNDUE or WP:FRINGE and should be removed altogether. Just because a criticism appears in one secondary source doesn't make it notable, especially when it appears his views may have perceived extreme from the quote I initially referenced in this same book. Moksha88 (talk) 02:04, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

@Moksha88: Wikipedia is for construction, not for destruction. If you have opinion then add it but just don't remove the lines and made it blank. Cooperate and make lines and add content in this article. Also, Sahjananda established sect in 1800 while Dayananda criticised the sect (or cult, in his opinion) in 1860s. Just to add chronological details about both is not WP:OR, this was just to add that Sahajananda was not contemporary but he established sect very much before. I am going to add several lines from Satyarth Prakash too. That disputed line is literally copied from this Gujarati article and have been translated. Now, if you have book and found the actual sentence which is different then we can add it as it is. -- Harshil ^{want to talk?} 02:36, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

I can see why you might think it's appropriate to include this reference in the English article when it’s in the Gujarati article and why translating the quote from one language to another might not be OR. WP policy is clear here, and when the English source is present, the words you included between the quotes must match the English text. Satyarth Prakash is a primary source, so we can’t use that either. The only quote you could pull from this book is that he didn't accept Swaminarayan as God because he felt he deceived his followers. On page 144, the author quotes Dayananda, "In this same manner, all the opponents of the Vedas are clever in stripping others of their wealth. Such is the imposition of sects. The followers of the Swami Narayan religion illegally make money, practice frauds and tricks." Still, I can’t seem to find other secondary sources to corroborate the notability of this opinion and thus don't think it should be included in this article. I will now seek consensus from others. @Harshil169, Ms Sarah Welch, Nizil Shah, Gazal world, Apollo1203, and Treehugger8891: Moksha88 (talk) 01:26, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

I can only request you to look at and read Wikipedia's policies. It never says that you can't add something directly from the book. It just says that diaries, autobiagraphies and such books are primary sources and can't be used for notability. If you still can't believe then read Criticism of Islam. In the article, direct reference is given to the newspaper article for any columnist and according to your understanding, it is original research then it might have been removed or have been tagged. I already suggested two essays to read to differentiate between original research and primary sources. First read, understand and then cite. -- Harshil ^{want to talk?} 02:27, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Sarcastic dig and criticism

@Harshil169:, how sarcastic dig by Morari Bapu qualify as serious criticism of Swaminarayan sect? Criticism is a scholarly study of a subject. Sarcastic dig is hardly qualify as criticism. -Nizil (talk) 05:34, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Nizil Shah still it was criticism as the central figure of the sect was directly criticised and attacked. Also, in criticism of Islam, there’s mention of such jibes and one sarcastic book namely ‘Rangeela Rasool’.— Harshil ^{want to talk?} 05:39, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Also, we should not add Kaajal Oza Vaidya in reference. She is not a scholar, but a popular columnist and novelist. Her works isn't mentioned as 'significant work' in any 'reference works' or in any books of 'history of literature'. --Gazal world (talk) 05:42, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

@Harshil169:, Attack is not criticism. Did he criticised any particular aspect of sect or philosophy? At most, I can see that he criticised the use of Nilkanth title. Btw I can not find Rangeela Rasool in Islam or Criticism of Islam.-Nizil (talk) 05:46, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

@Nizil Shah:, ohh I found it here. Now, it’s obvious that criticism of Islam and Muhammad are different and so much in detailed and hence different. Here, I’ve added in this section to avoid making new article on Criticisms of Sahjanand as an individual. Sahjanand is the central figure of Swaminarayan and hence, I’ve added it here. Also, @Gazal world: the page I’ve cited here also has commentaries from journalist Katherine Zoepf and Criticism of Islam also includes criticisms from several columnists and journalists. Kajal Oza Vaidhya showed her opinion and it will be not wrong to include it here if we follow same pattern as Wikipedia articles have for criticism of religion.— Harshil ^{want to talk?} 06:23, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Oh, Katherine Zoepf ! Atleast, she is an author of several 'scholarly' or 'historical' works. And Kajal Oza Vaidya ? Hope, you get the point. --Gazal world (talk) 06:31, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

@Harshil169:, Morari Bapu has not criticised Sahajanand. He took a dig at the use of Nilakanth title. Two are different things. And mocking the use of title is hardly a criticism of the sect.-Nizil (talk) 06:35, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

@Nizil Shah: In the same way, Dayananda Saraswati had also took a dig at Sahjanand. As he objected Sahjanand as presenting himself as Vishnu. Then whole article becomes reluctant here. — Harshil ^{want to talk?} 06:38, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

@Gazal world: I got your point but still Wikipedia articles have opinions from authors and columnists who didn’t produce any scholary work yet. They are in even articles of criticism of religion. — Harshil ^{want to talk?} 06:41, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

@Harshil169: You missed the point. Dayanand had criticised Sahajanad and Morari Bapu has not criticised Sahajanand. He took a dig at the use of Nilakanth title. Is this any kind of criticism of the sect? [Note: I think you want to say "redundant" in previous comment but instead wrote "reluctant". I get it.] -Nizil (talk) 06:49, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

I got your point. But still it’s one type of objection. See the lead section of this article. You’ll find the criticism over use of word Prophet for Muhammad. Firstly, I’ve read all the articles related to criticism of religions and then I had created this one in the lines of it. Morari Bapu objected use of title and he had his own points. Devotees of sect got triggered which created a big controversy in Gujarat. So, in my opinion, this deserves a place. Obviously, I’ll improve it. — Harshil ^{want to talk?} 06:57, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

@Harshil169: Even if Morari Bapu objected use of the title, what was his point? What of his criticism? Dig/mocking is not a serious criticism. The controversy is not important.-Nizil (talk) 07:53, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Nizil Shah, His point was title Nilkanth is for his sect or lord, not for some other sect as they used in 19th century. This is same as Jews criticise the prophecy and use of term prophet for Muhammad whose time was 7th century and they have an old faith. Same for Christianity and their obligation of use of term 'prophet' for Muhammad. That's the reason why it took place. If you think this is inappropriate then you can refer articles of criticism of another religion. And still not convinced then let's seek third opinion of person or removing those lines from paragraph. -- Harshil ^{want to talk?} 02:47, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

@Harshil169: Simply, Morari Bapu's point was about use of term Nilkanth by Swaminarayan sect. In fact, Swaminarayan sect uses term Nilkanth Varni. Bapu just mocked it by telling that the Nilkanth applies to a person who drank poison, not laddu (a sweet). So what was his serious criticism? Did he told not to use Nilkanth? No, he just mocked its use. My point is that there is no real criticism in whole issue. It was : a mocking by a person, the people of sect feel offended, and the person apologised. I believe the whole section is pointless. Pinging Ms Sarah Welch for third opinion.-Nizil (talk) 05:27, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

@Nizil Shah:, refer to BBC source given in the article. Morari Bapu’s whole statement was “Abhisheka can be done only on Nilkanth, all other Nilkanths are fake. You’ve to drink poison to become Nilkanth but you can’t become Nilkanth by eating laddus.” This was serious comment but in sarcastic way on the central figure of sect. Article of BBC clarifies many doubts on how Morari Bapu attack someone. — Harshil ^{want to talk?} 05:33, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

This article is in poor shape. We should avoid OR and not extrapolate criticism (or sarcasm) of an individual or individuals to "criticism of a sect/tradition". Similarly, the criticism of a few sadhus or someone alleged to have committed a crime should not be extrapolated into criticism of the Swaminarayan sect. WP:BLP applies here too. A better article will avoid ad hominems, and focus on the criticism of the ideology, themes, beliefs etc of the sect/tradition/religious group. Even there, we must invest due care in reading multiple sources and confirming whether an allegation or opinion is "notable" (WP:Due) by being in multiple "independent" reliable sources, preferably high-quality sources. All criticism should be carefully attributed to the source, avoid using wikipedia voice or universalizing. Mythology-based sarcastic comments/etc based on an interview is not an appropriate source/content and weakens this article. See WP:WWIN. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 10:43, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

How has he taken a dig? He was stating the truth that Mahadev is Nilkanth? Correct your facts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sciho (talk • contribs) 15:03, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Welcome to wikipedia. Doesn't matter whether it is dig/praise/reality, it is unencyclopedic and not notable. When someone alleges one must "drink poison to become Nilkanth", this is their opinion. It is from mythology, about mythical/symbolic poison (of unknown composition) just like the mythical/symbolic amrit (also of unknown composition). We do not include every opinion voiced in newspaper or other media in wikipedia articles. It must be notable and of encyclopedic value. Please see WP:WWIN and other content guidelines. A summary of scholarly criticism of this sect would be most welcome. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 15:37, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

I agree with @Ms Sarah Welch:. Outside of the references he has cited, I cannot find other secondary sources which support the notability of these criticisms. Moksha88 (talk) 01:11, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

But Ms Sarah Welch, here scholary criticism is not even acceptable as you can find in discussions of moksha and apollo. I cannot cite Dayananda's criticism because it's written by him in his work Satyarth Prakash. Also, I can't add criticism of Mahatma Gandhi directly from his own book because website of BAPS cult is saying something other for Mahatma. And his criticism is not even notable. Okay, I'm blanking the page in 2 days and will request deletion. Many people don't want to tolerate criticism of their swami.-- Harshil ^{want to talk?} 04:23, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

@Harshil169: I have only used scholarly references that have been produced by reliable publishing houses. This has been my basis of editing or correcting false claims which are not supported by secondary source. Precisely what Ms Sarah Welch has mentioned. Apollo1203 (talk) 04:37, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Request Exact Quotes - Gujarati and Hindi

Harshil169 Please provide the exact quotes and translations used from the 2 Gujarati sources used and 1 Hindi source used on this page. Apollo1203 (talk) 02:52, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

• User:Harshil169, the user was trying to ping you. Drmies (talk) 03:04, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Apollo1203 This demand is pathetic. I can't provide translations of three articles on the Wikipedia. Just use Google translate and do so. I didn't use any type of the quote or comment from those articles. Google translation is there, use it. -- Harshil ^{want to talk?} 03:50, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

@Harshil169: Let’s focus on improving the content. We are not as well versed in Gujarati, and I’d trust your translation abilities over a Google algorithm. Can you please provide the relevant quotations from the article with their English translations as per WP:NOENG? Moksha88 (talk) 01:07, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

I didn't use any quotation from non-English source. Don't create dispute of each topic by topic after. First resolve one thing. Don't attack from four sides.-- Harshil ^{want to talk?} 04:28, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

@Harshil169: The original source is in Gujarati and/or Hindi, therefore, it was taken from non-English source. It would be helpful to see which quote is the basis of the claim you are making from the articles of another language. Also, there are many pending requests and comments on the page that have still not been addressed. Apollo1203 (talk) 04:34, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Gandhi on Swaminarayan Sampraday

The section dedicated to Gandhi's criticism of the Swaminarayan sect has been removed for the following reasons:
1. The text is in violation of WP:RP, as the text is purely from a primary source. Additionally, it violates WP:NPOV as wording is biased as the source itself seems biased.
2. We can also turn to the Swaminarayan page. Here it clearly states an alternative view of Gandhi's: "the work accomplished by Swaminarayan in Gujarat could not and would never have been achieved by the law.” (https://www.baps.org/About-BAPS/TheFounder%E2%80%93BhagwanSwaminarayan/IntheirEyes%E2%80%A6.aspx). Scholars note close parallels between Gandhi's work and Swaminarayan's work related to non-violence, truth-telling, hygiene, temperance, and the uplift of masses. (Brady Williams, Raymond (2001). An Introduction to Swaminarayan Hinduism. Cambridge University Press. p. 173. ISBN 9780521654227.) Commenting on Gandhi's social work, N.A. Toothi "most of his thought, activities and even methods of most of the institutions which he has been building up and serving, have the flavor of Swaminarayanism, more than that of any other sect of Hindu Dharma." He however did not feel that Swaminarayan's values aligned perfectly with his interpretation of Vaishnavism. (Takashi Shinoda (2002). The other Gujarat. Popular Prakashan. p. 9. ISBN 978-81-7154-874-3. Retrieved 27 June 2009) and (Hardiman, David (1988). "Class Base of Swaminarayan Sect". Economic and Political Weekly. 23 (37): 1907–1912. JSTOR 4379024).
If anyone feels against this, please discuss and we can come to a consensus on the topic.
Apollo1203 (talk) 03:13, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Apollo1203, How pathetic you are talking here? Mahatma Gandhi said this in his book and you are referring to the sources provided by Swaminarayan sect? You can't remove the content whatever you like. This quotation is directly taken from Mahatma Gandhi's work. So, go and verify it rather than depending on some sect's website, otherwise, you'll be blocked for removing content. -- Harshil ^{want to talk?} 03:19, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Harshil169 - I have cited Williams, Toothi, Shinoda, and Hardiman regarding Gandhi's views as well. Whom are not part of the sect — Preceding unsigned comment added by Apollo1203 (talk • contribs) 03:25, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Apollo1203, Verify this text in the work of Mahatma Gandhi. If it is wrong then I will remove it. If you will revert one more time then you maybe blocked from Wikipedia for edit war.-- Harshil ^{want to talk?} 03:46, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Sure, I can do research into it. Also, I believe it should be a general consensus of what should remain or removed, it is not your page Harshil169 or your ultimate decision of what should remain or not. I would like to invite the others to comment on this topic as well. Apollo1203 (talk) 03:38, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Apollo1203 You can't remove the content without gaining consensus. Here, link to direct primary source is given, don't believe in source provided by some sect. -- Harshil ^{want to talk?} 03:49, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

It appears quite clear that scholars have also mentioned Gandhi's viewpoint on Swaminarayan. I do not deny that there is mention that Gandhi believed Swaminarayan's values did not align with his interpretation of Vaishnavism. I invite others to also comment and review the work on Gandhi and its notability for this page. Based on group consensus, we can determine if it should be removed or kept. Apollo1203 (talk) 17:19, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Please remove. I have not seen other sources supporting the inclusion of its notability. Moksha88 (talk) 01:06, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

If you have not seen then it doesn't mean that it should not be there on Wikipedia. Person who championed indian freedom struggle is not notable then who is notable? Swami Dayananda Saraswati is not notable. So, I have to blank the page, right? -_ Harshil ^{want to talk?} 02:29, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Reference #6 [WP:NPOV]

In verifying this statement, “Swaminarayan was also criticized by his contemporaries because he received large gifts from his followers and dressed and traveled as a Maharaja even though he had taken the vows of renunciation of the world by being a Sannyasi,” I found this statement in Raymond Williams’s An Introduction to Swaminarayan Hinduism, “'Followers believe that he was unaffected by any of these emotions or feelings. Swaminarayan was criticized because he received large gifts from his followers and dressed and traveled as a Maharaja even though he had taken the vows of renunciation of the world” (81). I notice you are now referencing a Gujarati source. Can you please provide us an English translation of the reference and an explanation for why you changed the reference?

Also, this excerpt is taken out of context from William's book [WP:NPOV]. This section is part of a larger discussion of Swaminarayan’s teachings where God assumes a human body and human characteristics to accept the devotion of his followers. This is again addressed in this book, “There are many stories in which he received gifts or ate very fine food, not because he wanted them, but to satisfy the devotional needs of his followers” (19). Moksha88 (talk) 01:38, 4 October 2019 (UTC)