Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/American Airlines destinations/archive

American Airlines destinations

American Airlines destinations (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - (View log)

According to Wikipedia guidelines, notability is a criteria for the inclusion of an article in our encyclopedia. A topic is notable if it has been the subject of multiple, non-trivial published works from sources that are reliable and independent of the subject itself and each other. It is quite clear that these lists fail this criteria. Except for that, it should be noted that Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information, and that Wikipedia is not a directory. Based on well, this argument, and some others, the highly relevant AfD on Livingston Airline Destinations resulted in a delete. Please, before submitting your thoughts here, read through the relevant discussion there.

In addition to the nominated page, I would like to batch-nominate 172 related articles. Per instructions on WP:AFD, I was to add a list of batch-nominated articles below using {{la}}. However, the sheer size of that list - 172 entries - prompts me to link it instead. You may view it here.

Briefly, it contains every article listed in Category:Airline destinations at the time of writing. Jobjörn (Talk ° contribs) 23:43, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

• This is cruft. Sorry, but it has to go.--Tdxiang 09:51, 15 January 2007 (UTC)User:Jobjörn/Draft AfD: American Airlines destinations/Articles to be nominated

--List by BIL 16:38, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Nice work BIL. Now, though, the AfD is harder than usual to edit. Good thing they are included though... perhaps then people will grasp we're actually talking about I don't know how many articles. Jobjörn (Talk ° contribs) 16:58, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

that's fixed now/wangi 22:58, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

• Delete all per nom. Due to the dynamic nature of this sort of information, trying to mantain a series of encyclopedia articles on it seems impossible. The airlines' websites are the places people should be going to find out this information, not Wikipedia. Tevildo 23:49, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Destinations don't change all that much. What does change is the routes flown. WP:AIRLINES has been trying to keep route information out of the articles for this very reason. Destinations are a compromise that are maintainable. Vegaswikian 01:41, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
    • How about keeping it all out of the encyclopedia? Jobjörn (Talk ° contribs) 02:34, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
• Comment: It should be noted that I'm adding {{subst:afd1|American Airlines destinations}} to all damned articles... by hand! AWB would only let me prepend notices to talk pages :( (Not that this is an argument for deletion, I just want some sympathy.) Jobjörn (Talk ° contribs) 00:04, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
• Additional information - there have been at least three prior discussions regarding such articles in the last year. Summary:

  Flybe destinations - result was merge (content kept)

  Hawaiian Airlines destinations - result was redirect (content already existed on main article)

  Livingston Airline Destinations - result was delete (content not kept anywhere) --- RockMFR 00:22, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

• Certainly a Delete, but Jobjörn, considering that there are just so many of them, perhaps it would be better to bring the precedent to a different venue (i.e., the IRC channel on Freenode, or the Administrators' fora, or...)? --Dennisthe2 00:29, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
  • That's hardly a challenge, is it? ;) Anyhow I'm done now. It didn't take too long: 46 minutes! :D Jobjörn (Talk ° contribs) 00:38, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete - Generally this type of information would be considered similar to an almanac or a reference table. In my opinion the main argument against listing airline destinations is the highly dynamic nature of the information (similar to listing all the destinations served by Amtrak or Greyhound Lines). Also this information seems to be less encyclopedic and more like a travel guide (which would perhaps qualify it for inclusion in Wikitravel). I remember when airlines used to give out timetables in paper format, such information might qualify for Wikisource. --Oden 04:12, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete, WP:NOT. I tried getting a reason here for why these articles even existsted, but I didn't really get a satisfactory answer. Axem Titanium 04:45, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
• Comment - I'd like someone from the related WikiProject to explain why these exist and/or are needed before I decide my opinion on this. --- RockMFR 05:13, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Reply - They inform the readers the places where an airline flies, which is pretty vital information when you think about it, just like airport articles contain large lists of the airlines located within the airport, as well as the destinations flown by those airlines from that airport, a reader would want to what destinations an individual airline flies to. The reason we separate these into subarticles, however, is because they are most often very large and won't fit well within the airline's article itself, thus, these are actually just subarticles attached to the airline articles (just like List of victims of the Columbine High School massacre is attached to Columbine High School massacre). It's the same basic information as that list there, just like people want to know who died in that massacre, and people would also like to know where an airline flies to, it gives a better perspective on the airline's goals and achievements. Most of all however, these lists are important information from a main article which doesn't fit in it so, something that exists ALL OVER WIKIPEDIA, if you delete these, then we better get on deleting all of those, too. -- SmthManly / ^ManlyTalk / ^{ManlyContribs} 07:43, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
    • Reply to comment reply: The comparison of List of American Airlines destinations and List of victims of the Columbine High School massacre and stating it's the same basic information is, to me, disgusting and revolting. Even though I live on the other side of the world I am unable to comprehend how one can compare a list of murder victims in a highly publicized massacre shown in the news ALL OVER THE WORLD - with a list of trivial airline destinations. The list of Columbine victims is not trivial, it is certainly of encyclopedic value and most definitely passes all notability/verifiability/etc guidelines you could think of.
      Now, compare that to a list of destinations of an airline. While it might be true that it gives the reader a list of destinations an individual airline flies to and that might actually be useful, Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. What are company websites for? Or, for that matter... Wikitravel? Wikipedia is neither and should not be treated as such.
      Based on the core of your arguments ("it's useful"), I should write Jobjörn Folkesson and include my phone number and place of residence. Then, I could tell people to look me up on Wikipedia instead of giving them obscure numbers! Now THAT would be useful, wouldn't it? But, Jobjörn Folkesson is still a redlink. Jobjörn (Talk ° contribs) 09:51, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
• right, ok... well, i don't give a flying fuck anymore... jsut disregard anything i've said and delete all you want, i don't care, i've got enought fucking problems in my life right now to spend time arguing bullshit on wikipedia, and i'm gone anyway, i've wasted enough of my life on this shit as is, 25 months... like you'd care anyway. goodbye. -- SmthManly / ^ManlyTalk / ^{ManlyContribs} 20:11, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
  • • • Comment - Actually, the list of victims of Columbine isn't any more "encyclopedic" than a list of airline destinations. Obviously the event itself deserves an article, but the fact that it was a horrible event doesn't mean it should receive special treatment when it comes to a list of victims. Should we create a list of every single victim of the Holocaust? I don't think anyone will argue that it was less significant than the Columbine massacre. DB (talk) 20:17, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Keep -- You crazy people, you fight to the death to keep crap about non-notable high schools which no one cares about, yet you refuse to inform readers the places an airline flies to... this type of double standard really kills this place, and if you know me you know I would not normally respond this way, but seriously, I use these pages a lot, and if you go ahead and delete this, then I guess I could go on my campaign to delete record albums, since unless they've won an award they mean no more than these lists do... oh wait, i know, I'll go by and begin campaigning to delete all lists on wikipedia, since this is what this is... a list, so if you like keeping your lists then you'll keep this... or if not, then the list of emperors, lists of baseball players, the list located in the article primate city, list computer games by genre, list of high schools in Florida, and all the other lists that sit around on my watchlist can get a nice gray AFD tag placed on it. <sarcasm>Now, continue... since this could be the nice beginning to the removal of all those crappy lists which are really nothing but trivial, almanac type information that are difficult to maintain</sarcasm>. -- SmthManly / ^ManlyTalk / ^{ManlyContribs} 07:33, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment: First of all, remember WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL, please. Calling the other side "crazy" in an AfD discussion will hardly aid us in the building of an encyclopedia.
    Furthermore, you group AfD !voters in a highly unfair way. I would certainly not defend the inclusion of non-notable high schools (in fact I'd do my best to get even my own deleted), and if I did, I would CERTAINLY not do so to death.
    That you use these pages is not an argument. Although I wish you all luck in your campaign to delete record albums, that is a matter ENTIRELY unrelated to this - a certain logical fallacy, if you wish.
    Well, the rest of your comment hardly makes any sense, although your suggestions on other lists do seem quite justified an encyclopedic. Except for List of Emperors which... well... doesn't even exist. Jobjörn (Talk ° contribs) 10:00, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Keep -- I am using these pages right now for a research about airlines and their destinations. I am pretty confident I'm not the only one who goes to Wikipedia to verify the destinations of an airline or an airport, instead of spending more time browsing through an airline website for that information. There are better candidates out there for deletion. -- AirOdyssey (Talk) 07:46, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Relying on such a list might not be advisable if it hasn't been updated in a while. See also Wikipedia:General disclaimer.--Oden 08:06, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Using a Wikipedia article rather than the easily-available, more-updated and more-in-context original source for verification is a highly inadvisable way of doing research. Check in with your research methodology prof. Bwithh 08:31, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Apart from the advice from the gentlemen above, I'd like to suggest that you are indeed the only one who goes to wikipedia to verify something found elsewhere, especially at an authoritative source such as the comapny's website. Usually, you see, it's the other way around. Nevertheless, this is parly something of an WP:ILIKEIT !vote, and also another red herring - two wrongs does not make a right. If there are better candidates for deletion out there, please nominate them for deletion, will you? Jobjörn (Talk ° contribs) 10:04, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
• Comment - If we are deleting lists of destinations served by an airline, should we not also remove the same information from an article on an airport (for instance John F. Kennedy International Airport#Terminals, airlines and destinations). --Oden 08:06, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Reply-- Just because no one's edited it doesn't mean it's not updated, American Airlines just hasn't flown to any new destinations since its last edit. If you think you'll get the list of airlines in airport articles deleted, then you're really crazy, because that's the part of those articles that's maintained the most... not to mention the fact that information is VERY vital to the article due to it being the primary function of any airport. -- SmthManly / ^ManlyTalk / ^{ManlyContribs} 08:13, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
    • If you really think that I am crazy, see WP:NPA. If it was just a clumsy form of expression see WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF. --Oden 08:29, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
      • Clumsy form of expression, but regardless, I don't see how I targetted you specifically in any of this other than saying you're crazy to suggest deleting the list of airlines in airports, but I still think it's a crazy idea to consider this cruft since they are not individual articles, but subarticles. -- SmthManly / ^ManlyTalk / ^{ManlyContribs} 14:36, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
  • I agree with you whole-heartedly, Oden. The same information should indeed be removed from airline-related articles. As you can't batch-nominate sections in an AfD, however, that will have to be brought up and argued over at the respective article's talk page... preferrably when this issue has been settled, so that we have a precedent. Jobjörn (Talk ° contribs) 10:07, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete as per WP:NOT. In addition, this information is always going to be more updated and more in context on the AA website, so this is redundant too. Bwithh 08:31, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete all as per WP:NOT. This sort of information is well beyond the point at which an encyclopedia, even Wikipedia, stops and a compnaies own website takes over. Nuttah68 09:07, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Keep As the creator of the article in question here (waaaaay back on 27 November 2004) I strongly believe that this is a necessary page. The content was originally on the American Airlines page and was a big space taker. Since the move it's gotten a lot bigger and complete, so it wouldn't fit well on the back where it was and the content would have to be deleted, which strikes me as a silly thing to do. This information isn't available in an easy list format on the AA.com website, you have to go though a time consuming map system. —Jonathan D. Parshall (Talk | contribs) 12:02, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment: Although it is indeed useful, its encyclopedic value must be questioned. Is it encyclopedic? No. It is a collection of information, and Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. I would suggest it is re-written on Wikitravel (mere copying is impossible due to copyright issues, I believe), that seems to be the most relevant and accessible place for such a list. Jobjörn (Talk ° contribs) 12:41, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete all per nom and WP:NOT, even per WP:CRUFT. While these airlines are encyclopedic, their destinations can be summarized into neat sections on the respective airline's article. Comment: To all those whose argument includes the "there are better things to delete" clause, I'd like to say that it's not relevant at all. Please keep your points focused on these articles alone. - SpLoT _(*C*+u+g) 14:01, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete. This is an uncommented dump of original data. The proper place for it is the airline's website. Dr Zak 15:39, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
• Keep all. If Interstate 80 in California can list the exits of I-80, why can't we list destinations for airlines? I don't see the harm. - grubber 17:06, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment:The comparison does not take into account the dynamic nature of airlines service as opposed to the static nature of a fixed installation. A list of toll bridges or a list of airports is usually something that will stand for a long time, as opposed to a list of scheduled service which might change with short notice. --Oden 01:12, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

• Comment your argument for keep is answered at WP:ILIKEIT#What about article x? and WP:ILIKEIT#It doesn't do any harm. Nuttah68 17:31, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

• Keep All - Obviously notable where an airline flys to. One change I would make is the inclusion of "when the article was last updated" with some sort of standard template. One of the benefits of wikipedia over other encyclopedias is its ability to handle dynamic information such as this. --MarsRover 19:31, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
  • If you look at the bottom of each page, there is a line that shows when the article was last updated. Vegaswikian 21:53, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
    • Cool, wikipedia rocks. then change mine to unconditional keep all. side note: all this trans-wiki talk is rubbish. these articles will only have enough exposure to be updated if left here. --MarsRover 03:33, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
• Comment: To be perfectly frank, I'm seeing a disparity here. While this is certainly useful information, it's also my opinion that it has become something that Wikipedia can't include. (Accordingly, my delete - above - still stands as a blanket.) But that said, given that there is a) precedent to have it exist due to interest, b) precedent demonstrated by other Wikis to take more narrow subject matter off of WP (see, for instance, Wikia), and c) plans to create a transit Wiki sitting on my desk at home, would there be interest in including such information within such a realm? --Dennisthe2 19:52, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Maybe Wikisource will take it. Wikipedia just isn't the place for uncommented data dumps like this, even if they happen to be useful data dumps. Dr Zak 20:09, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
  • I'm not sure that this would be the right venue accordingly. It's a bit specialized - and WS seems to allude that this would be deleted here. Closest I can find is the Travel page on Wikia right now, but even that is kind of putting something odd there. --Dennisthe2 21:57, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
• Keep all - the information is actually verifiable by third party sources. OAG publishes a list of every route served by every airline in the world. As we mentioned before, simplying copying that list would be excessive, however, the OAG lists can easily be used to compile a destination list for each airline. DB (talk) 20:36, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Of course the data is verifiable. So is the text of a poem. We don't keep collections of poetry, why should this be kept? Dr Zak 21:04, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Please also see WP:ILIKEIT. Just because it's true doesn't mean it belongs here. --Dennisthe2 02:10, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
• Weak keep - this information (whether summarized or not) *would* be appropriate for the articles of each respective airline. However, in almost all cases, there is just too much to justify merging. I'm not sure if transwiki is a good solution for this. --- RockMFR 21:54, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete All per nom... Addhoc 23:59, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
• Comment: if the outcome of a AfD is delete, as opposed to merge, then adding the content of the deleted article to another article is not the right thing to do (see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Livingston Airline Destinations and this diff). Anyone who thinks that this information should be merged in any form into another article should say so and not act unilaterally. --Oden 01:12, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
  • You should also point out that as a part of reviewing that deletion decision, the administrator who judged that the consensus was to delete offered to make that data available to be merged into the parent article. I guess that the closing admin here needs to decide how to handle the closing if there is not a well defined and factually supported consensus to delete. The option to merge back in is clearly on the table given the precedent cited above. Vegaswikian 03:50, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
• Strong keep - This is essentially a useful list acting as a sub-page to American Airlines. It should be part of the 'American Airlines' article, and would be relevant and appropiate there, except for the fact that it would be impracticle to do that because of the huge size the list would be. - Paxomen 03:16, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete—non-encyclopedic. As far as I can tell there are no secondary sources for this information. The only source for this information are the airlines themselves—why would anyone want to get this information from Wikipedia when they can get the information from the airline?--Riferimento 04:20, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete all, because Wikipedia is WP:NOT an indiscriminate collection of information, and these will be difficult to maintain as destinations are always changing. Really crufty too. Dragomiloff 05:55, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete all for WP:NOT. This is an indiscriminate list of information without any actual encyclopedic value. If some line has something exceptional (the firts regular intercontinental line, the longest commercial line, the only line between the US and Cuba (with the political background this would have), ..., then an article for such a line may be completely acceptable. But the current lists are way too detailed for Wikipedia and are indeed a version of listcruft (of which thare are too many other examples still, but deleting those would be a very good start). 06:12, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
• Keep. These are subpages of the respective airline articles, and a list of destinations would be relevant in the airline articles. Some of the smaller airlines may be able to absorb a merge of their respective list, but I'm not going to try picking through all 172 to find them. BryanG^(talk) 09:23, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
• Keep All. We all fight to keep articles of unknown schools and yet we want to delete the destinations of airlines. I don't see the logic in that. Leidiot 10:25, 15 January 2007 (UTC)