Talk:Armenian genocide

Death toll?

A 2005 paper is quoted as stating that "the figure of 1.5 million people is generally accepted as a reasonable estimate" which isn't quite the same as "1.5 million is the most published number". Taner Akçam states that "one can confidently say that the number of deported Armenians was around 1.2 million" (The Young Turks' Crime Against Humanity (2011), p. 258), of whom some managed to survive. Many sources have lower estimates. For example, They Can Live in the Desert but Nowhere Else (2015) comes up with an estimate of approximately 664,000 Armenian victims between 1915 and 1918. USHMM states, "At least 664,000 and possibly as many as 1.2 million died during the genocide."[1] According to a 2016 Springer chapter by two professional demographers, "The existing estimates are quoted as ranging ‘from 600,000 to 2 million’, and are heavily disputed." The conclusion of this paper states:

Precise knowledge of the number of Armenian victims is not possible, and striving for ‘more accurate’ estimates might be misplaced... The existing estimates roughly agree as to the order of magnitude of the number of victims, from at least 600,000, or – more likely – 800,000 to over a million during the entire period. [1915–1923]

According to Benny Morris and Dror Ze'evi in The Thirty-Year Genocide (2019):

For decades, Armenian spokesmen and historians have zoomed in on World War I and have referred to 1-1.5 million Armenians murdered during 1915–1916, the core genocidal event during the 30- year period. Recent works, including by Armenian historians, have revised that figure substantially downwards. A major initial problem is that there are no agreed figures for the number of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire in 1914. Secondly, no proper count was made of the number of Armenians who survived and reached foreign lands. Most historians estimate that on the eve of WWI, there were 1.5–2 million Armenians in the empire, mostly in Anatolia, and that between 800,000 and 1.2 million of them were deported. Raymond Kevorkian has written that 850,000 were deported and that “the number of those who had perished exceeded 600,000” by late 1916. Presumably he believes that more died during the following years. Fuat Dündar maintains that about 800,000 were deported and that altogether 664,000— consisting of those who were slaughtered in place, died during the deportation marches, or died in their places of resettlement— were dead by war’s end.3 Taner Akçam has estimated, mainly on the basis of Talât’s calculations in late 1917, that some 1.2 million Armenians were deported. Of these only 200,000 or so were alive by late 1916, implying that one million were murdered in 1915–1916.

Although these estimates don't include those who were killed after 1918, Morris and Ze'evi estimate that this is only thousands. They seem to imply that only by including the Hamidian massacres and Adana pogroms is the total likely to be more than a million, according to their estimation.

Perhaps it would be better to give a range rather than a definitive number, if the question remains to be settled and is potentially unanswerable. Another option would be "around a million, although the exact figure is disputed" (t · c) buidhe 17:22, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

References

Estimated 1 million, the infobox states. By who? Seems like the entire purpose of these discussion was to downgrade the death toll. The most widely accepted number is 1.5 million, not 1 million as falsely stated, and is officially used by the majority of (non-armenian) government and organization adopted resolutions. Addictedtohistory (talk) 19:20, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

That's why we use scholarship as reliable source rather than political resolutions, which are not reliable. (t · c) buidhe 19:51, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

1.5 million is the most accepted estimate and official estimate in most of the adopted resolutions. Taner Akçam, whom you quoted states that 1.2 million where deported only during 1915-1916, of whom about only 200 thousand survived. That already makes up 1 million. After all the genocide continued to 1923 (1918 stated by some). "Leave it to historians/scholars" is the turkish denialist policy. Governments who adopted resolution base their estimates on expert views. Addictedtohistory (talk) 21:52, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

The statement that armenian historians revised and downgraded the death toll estimates is a falsification. The armenian population estimate of 1.5–2 is another falsification. During the second half of the 19th century, in several occasion ottoman census recorded 2.4 million. The ottoman Armenian officials, i.e Migirdich Bey Dadian, put an estimate of 3.4 million. Addictedtohistory (talk) 22:12, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

The majority of historians use the word "Armenian Genocide" to refer to the killings during the First World War (especially 1915–1916, sometimes continuing to 1917 or 1918) and do not include the postwar period. For example, The Armenian Genocide: A Complete History, The Young Turks' Crime Against Humanity, They Can Live in the Desert but Nowhere Else, etc. Akcam's estimate is on the high end of what RS use. For example, Ronald Grigor Suny states that during the genocide, "It is estimated conservatively that between 600,000 and 1 million were slaughtered or died during the marches". A compromise solution is "around 1 million" because all non-FRINGE estimates are close to that to one order of approximation. I'm not going to discuss whether scholarly sources should be disregarded in favor of political resolutions. (t · c) buidhe 22:32, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

1 million is your own estimate, based on your interpretation of your chosen sources. The intro and infobox should use official estimate. Addictedtohistory (talk) 18:48, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

The majority of historians use the word "Armenian Genocide" to refer to the killings during the First World War is a WP:POV. Even the sources you rely on bags to differ. Addictedtohistory (talk) 18:56, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

• The contemporary sources use the 800,000 figure so it carries some weight, then up to 1.5million. The high figure is often cited in Congressional debates of the United States so it carries some weight too. That range encompasses most of the detailed estimates Buidhe cites. Gators bayou (talk) 20:12, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

800,000 is the death toll published by Ottoman Gazette in 1920 for the period of 1915-1918, which is considered an underestimate for obvious reasons. December 15 NY Times issue states Million Armenians killed or in exile.... American committee on relief says victims of turks are steadily increasing. Thats for the 8 first months of the genocide. Addictedtohistory (talk) 22:37, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

Two grave, inexcusable and, I suspect deliberately left, blunders in the introductory sentence: “around 1 million ethnic Armenians from Anatolia and adjoining regions”.

First, most historians (of course, excluding Turkish denialists) agree that from under 2 to over 2.5 million Armenians lived in the Ottoman Empire. Even if we assume, for a moment, that only 1.5 million Armenians lived (this is an unbelievably low figure), the first sentence in the Death Toll section states that “[t]he genocide reduced the Armenian population of the Ottoman Empire by 90 percent”. Well, 90 percent of 1,500,000 is 1,350,000, that is, well over “around 1 million”. In the same section, the second sentence states that “most estimates are between 800,000 and over 1 million for the entire period 1915 to 1923”. Well, then, be so kind as to not to insult me and millions of descendants of the genocide survivors, and at least move this clause up to the introductory sentence, so it reads as follows: “The Armenian Genocide (other names) was the systematic mass murder and ethnic cleansing of between 800,000 and over 1 million ethnic Armenians […]”... if you’re so uncomfortable to repeat the figure of 1.5 million, which most genocide scholars, most professional genocide associations, and most governments that recognized the genocide had arrived at. Second, there have been no “Armenians from Anatolia”, because “Anatolia” is a relatively modern made-up Turkish toponym, invented to replace a more geographically and historically correct place name “The Armenian Highlands” or “The Armenian Plateau” . Again, if Wikipedia editors are so uncomfortable with using the correct toponyms and/or terms, you could at least replace the Turkish toponym “Anatolia” with a more neutral term “eastern provinces of the Ottoman Empire”, although genocidal extermination of the Armenians also took place in Cilicia, a part of the Armenian homeland on the Mediterranean coast, as well as in other places beyond eastern provinces.98.231.157.169 (talk) 00:35, 25 March 2021 (UTC)Davidian

most historians (of course, excluding Turkish denialists) agree that from under 2 to over 2.5 million Armenians lived in the Ottoman Empire, that's simply inaccurate. The official Ottoman figure was 1,251,785, and the Armenian patriarchate's estimate was 1,915,858. Many authors argue that it is somewhere in between (such as 1,500,000), others do use the Patriarchate's figure, but that's still less than 2 million (see They Can Live in the Desert but Nowhere Else pp. 354–355). When Suny states that the population was reduced by 90 percent, he is also counting those who were "ethnically cleansed" and managed to survive the ordeal but could not live in their homeland post-1923. As for place names, we generally use what the sources use. There were also many Armenians outside the Armenian Highlands/plateau in central and western Anatolia, Cilicia, etc. (t · c) buidhe 01:51, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

“The official Ottoman figure” has genuinely made me laugh… I hope you’re not serious bringing Turkish figures into this discussion? I wrote “under 2 to over 2.5 million Armenians lived in the Ottoman Empire” based on most historians’ estimates. And it is quite correct. It is that you chose to refer only to the figures under 2 million. But there are also figures above 2 million and around 2.5 million. I’ll revisit this thread with reliable sources shortly. Hold on.98.231.157.169 (talk)Davidian — Preceding undated comment added 02:08, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

Encyclopædia Britannica (author: Ronald Grigor Suny) : “At the beginning of the 20th century, there were about 2.5 million Armenians living in the Ottoman Empire, mostly concentrated in the six provinces of Eastern Anatolia.”

“Over 2,400,000 Armenians lived in the Ottoman Empire in 1897”. Çaik, Y.G. Türk Devleti Hizmetinde Ermeniler 1453-1953 (Armenians in the Service of Turkish State, 1453-1953), İstanbul: Yeni Matbaa, 1953, p. 240.

“The Ottomans do not have a definite number. That is, we have in our hands contradictory numbers regarding the Armenian population within the borders of the Ottoman Empire. I would think […] this is to be between two and three million.” Seçil Karal Akgün, Hürriyet, 27 April 1987.

“Avant 1914, sur 2 millions et demi d’Arméniens vivant dans l’empire ottoman, il y avait un peu plus de 100,000 catholiques”. Maurice Pernot, La Question turque, Paris: Bernard Grasset, 1923, p. 207.

“En sories que l’on comptait, avant 1914, 4,160,000 Arméniens, dont 2,380,000 habitaient en territoire turc, 1,500,000 étaient sujets de l’empereur de Russie, 64,000 vivaient dans les provinces du chah de Perse et les diverses colonies à l’étranger, ce qui portait à 4,500,000 environ le nombre total des membres de la nation arménienne, nombre que les malheurs de ces derniers temps out réduit dans des proportions qu’il n’est pas possible de définir à l’heure présente.” Jacques de Morgan, Histoire du peuple arménien, Nancy-Paris-Strasburg: Berger-Levrault, 1919, p. 297.98.231.157.169 (talk) 17:45, 26 March 2021 (UTC)Davidian

None of these are actually recent scholarly sources, i.e. from the last fifteen years or so. Someone's statement to a newspaper is not the same weight as peer reviewed work, and when dealing with old books from 100 years ago you have to ask—is this still supported by current scholarship? I do not think that Suny endorses such a high figure now, as in his 2015 book he does not mention any figure as high as 2 million (p. 354). Also, some of these estimates are of the Armenian population prior to 1914, which was indeed higher, given that hundreds of thousands of Armenians were massacred or emigrated prior to World War I. (t · c) buidhe 17:53, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

Where in Wikipedia policy does it say that Wikipedia: Reliable Sources must be “from the last fifteen years or so”? Where does it say that “old books from 100 years ago” have to be supported by “current scholarship” in order to qualify for RS? Please be so kind as to refer your readers to a relevant Wikipedia regulation. Next, Dr Seçil Karal Akgün is a professor of late Ottoman history and contemporary Turkish history at Middle Eastern Technical University. Therefore, by no means is she “someone”, as you chose to characterize her. What, if a scholar gives an interview to a major newspaper, it cannot be considered an RS? Where in Wikipedia’s regulations does it say that a source must be mandatorily a “peer reviewed work”, please? Further, Encyclopaedia Britannica’s Article History indicates that Suny’s article was thoroughly revised as recently as April 08, 2015. And lastly, a correction, only one estimate, found in Çaik, Y.G., pertains to the period prior to 1914. However, it is still relevant, because it was made after hundreds of thousands of Armenians were massacred or emigrated fleeing the Hamidian massacres of 1894-1896.98.231.157.169 (talk) 18:37, 26 March 2021 (UTC)Davidian

There is a vast literature on the topic of the Armenian Genocide, it ranges from straight up political propaganda and/or denialism to very good quality scholarship. You can cherry pick just about anything from sources, but per WP:NPOV we strive to cover views in accordance with the amount of support that they have in relevant academic field(s), while avoiding giving undue weight to assertions that may be WP:FRINGE. In order to show that the view, that Armenian population in 1914 was greater than 2 million, is a widely held one that merits inclusion in this article, it is necessary to cite recent scholarship that reflects such a view. (t · c) buidhe 19:06, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

Okay, all I ask is to direct participants and viewers in this talk to a Wikipedia regulation that states, unequivocally, that in order to support a view (in this case, that Armenian population in 1914 was greater than 2 million), the view “must be a widely held one that merits inclusion in an article” and, especially, that “it is necessary to cite recent scholarship that reflects such a view”. Neither WP:NPOV nor WP:FRINGE refer to or in any way support your interpretation of Wikipedia’s policies in this regard, I’m sorry to say. All sources I’ve brought up, suggesting that Armenian population in 1914 was greater than 2 million, are absolutely neutral and non-fringe. Two by Turkish scholars, two by French historians, one by Encyclopedia Britannica, whose last thorough revision of the article “Armenian Genocide” was made as recently as 2015 and, mind you, none by a current Armenian author (although they are many), so it won’t be regarded as “political propaganda” or “nationalist propaganda” or what have you.98.231.157.169 (talk) 19:30, 26 March 2021 (UTC)Davidian

Is Ronald Suny’s article published in WWI Encyclopaedia qualifies for an RS that was published “from the last 15 years or so”? And I hope Suny is not regarded by Wikipedia editors as a biased or fringe author, is he? Well, then in an article last updated on 26 May 2015, he offers the following figure: “Some 2 million Christian Armenians lived in the Ottoman lands in 1915, most of them peasants and townspeople in the six provinces of eastern Anatolia.” Please note that the figure refers to Armenian populations in “six provinces of eastern Anatolia” only. Is a study carried out in 2015 by an internationally renowned scholar considered a “good quality scholarship” and a “recent scholarship” by unspecified Wikipedia standards?98.231.157.169 (talk) 20:08, 26 March 2021 (UTC)Davidian

“The only empirical method that approaches reality is to compare the number of people counted before the war with the number of escapees. Thus, one can estimate that over two-thirds of the Ottoman Armenian population—around two million people on the eve of the First World War—were exterminated in the course of the war. Around 1,300,000 people, to which we must add victims of military operation and massacres carried out by the Ottoman Army and its paramilitary affiliates in Iranian Azerbaijan, Russian Azerbaijan, and in the Caucasus against Armenian civilian populations. This makes for a clear total of nearly 1,500,000 people.” Raymond Kévorkian, “The Extermination of Ottoman Armenians by the Young Turk Regime (1915-1916)”, SciencesPo, 3 June 2008 (published within 15 years—Davidian)98.231.157.169 (talk) 20:34, 26 March 2021 (UTC)Davidian

• Yes, "around 2 million" implies the Patriarchate's figures (1.9 million) are accurate, this is not a fringe view and I never said it was, but neither of these sources say it was *greater* than 2 million. (t · c) buidhe 21:01, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

Yes, but the five above did say it was greater than 2 million. But you chose to dismiss them on the grounds that they don’t “merit inclusion in this article” because they are not “from the last fifteen years or so” and that some of them are “old books from 100 years ago”. Whereas, again, I fail to see in Wikipedia: Reliable Sources that Wikipedia regulations set such limits for the inclusion of sources in an article. I earnestly think that arbitrary or frivolous interpretation of policies is less than helpful.98.231.157.169 (talk) 21:24, 26 March 2021 (UTC)Davidian

As for the 1913-1914 Patriarchate census figure, there is this extensive study by Armenian researcher Robert Tatoyan, titled “The Question of Western Armenian Population Number in 1878-1914” (Yerevan: The Armenian Genocide Museum-Institute Press, 2015), unfortunately in Armenian only, which traces the census operation and factors that impacted the collection of data. Based on a meticulous examination and comparative analysis of data, the author arrives at a conclusion that for several Armenian-populated areas the census-takers relied on flawed Ottoman statistics, which resulted in a total figure below the actual population number. This became evident in the light of testimonies of the genocide survivors who would customarily increase the number of populations per their native villages or hometowns by about 20 to 70 percent, as compared to the Patriarchate figures. 98.231.157.169 (talk) 22:53, 26 March 2021 (UTC)Davidian

Images that could be used in the article

Armenian deportations in Erzurum by Viktor Pietschmann

Armenian refugees in Palestine, 1918

Armenian orphans arrive at a Near East Relief orphanage

"The refugee home, a few feet of earth or stone: its occupants waiting for death or deliverance as they slowly starved."

Armenian refugee children LCCN2014710005

[2]

Semi-protected edit request on 8 December 2020 (2)

Yollug tigin (talk) 19:15, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

"Total Catholic and Orthodox Armenian population in the 1914 Ottoman Empire census data was around 1.1-1.2 million, yet, most of the resources put forward the argument of the systematic extermination of 1-1.5 million Armenians within the Empire. The denial of Armenian side to make the archives fully acccessible, raises the thoughts of the possibility of that incident to be used as a political trump against Turkey."

The text above must be added to this paragraph:"Raphael Lemkin was inspired by the annihilation of the Armenians to define the crime of systematic extermination of a people, which he called genocide, in 1943. The Armenian Genocide is the second-most-studied case of genocide after the Holocaust. In contrast to the vast majority of genocide scholars and historians, Turkey denies that the word genocide is an accurate term for these crimes. As of 2019, governments and parliaments of 32 countries, including the United States, Russia, and Germany, have recognized the events as a genocide."

reference:https://www.aa.com.tr/en/world/armenians-keep-their-archives-on-1915-events-closed/1468955 reference:http://www.mfa.gov.tr/the-armenian-allegation-of-genocide-the-issue-and-the-facts.en.mfa reference:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1914_population_statistics_for_the_Ottoman_Empire

•  Not done Wikipedia, the Turkish government and its official news agency are not reliable sources for this topic. (t · c) buidhe 19:39, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

Genocide Denial Ideas

Hey there people, I'm here to talk about that genocide denial issue. I think you saw people who thinks armenian genocide wasnt a genocide in real, but I sure most of you does not know exactly about what is people trying to say when they are denying the genocide; to be clear, I'm here to show you a video which says how there was not a genocide and why genocide denials thinking this is a big lie. I know this video is not an exact proof to change idea, but I believe this video could make you people have more idea. If you did not found this video trustable (even if this video is made by one of the most rooted and one of the less for-profit channels of Turkey) you can ask me to show more sturdy articles or another source whichever says there was not a genocide in Eastern Anatolia at 1915: The video I told you

İsmail Kendir (talk) 20:25, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

The Armenian Genocide is a matter of absolute, indisputable, objective historical fact. Wikipedia is not a platform for nationalist historical revisionism. You are in the wrong place. Jonmaxras (talk) 22:42, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Then why you try to serve this historical revolt like holocaust with propaganda? Is Justin McCarthy, Bernard Lewis, Norman Stone seems like Turkish or Turkish nationalist to you? When western media see a objective and real historians they give a name of 'deniar'. We can see wikipedias so called objectivity from this example. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.190.5.250 (talk) 17:50, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

New Infobox

Armenian Genocide
Part of World War I, Dissolution of the Ottoman Empire
Bodil Biørn's caption: "The Armenian leader Papasian considers the last remnants of the horrific murders at Deir ez-Zor in 1915–1916."
Location	Ottoman Empire
Description	Genocide of ethnic Armenians
Date	1915–1918
Attack type	Genocide, ethnic cleansing
Deaths	Between 1.2-1.5 million
Perpetrators	Ottoman government
Motive	Racism, religious persecution
Trials	Prosecution of Ottoman war criminals

I feel that this article would benefit greatly from an infobox, giving it a more polished and presentable look and concisely summarizing key details of the genocide. Included here is my rough draft. The details I am unsure of are the death toll, timeline, and motive. Sources I've seen on the death toll range quite significantly; the American Holocaust Museum states it is between 664,000 and 1.2 million, the History Channel range is even wider at 600,000-1.5 million.. The Armenian National Institute stands firmly at 1.5 million. Obviously an exact death toll is impossible to calculate for an event such as this, however, I am wondering if we can find a consensus on a good range to include. Additionally, the timeline is difficult to define. The vast majority of sources define April 24, 1915 as the beginning, however, various sources say the genocide ended in 1916, 1918, and 1923 (the Wikipedia sidebar on Armenian history, shown on this page, claims 1909-1918, and I cannot find any support for the 1909 date). As far as motive, racism and religious persecution seem to be it, but it's not definitively stated in a lot of sources (unlike say the Holocaust; you could absolutely pinpoint antisemitism as the motive).

I am relatively unfamiliar with the details of this genocide as I'm still learning more about it. But I'd still like to see the inclusion of an infobox in this article as most other notable historical events have one. If you have more info to provide than I can find, please feel free to include/edit it to be more accurate. And this should go without saying but I will not tolerate any genocide denial in this discussion. If that's your intent, you are in the wrong place. Jonmaxras (talk) 02:55, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

I do support there being an infobox but I think there should be significant user collaboration and review on it before it goes on the actual page. All of the information here is highly sensitive and disputed. There was an infobox which was removed in November due to containing disputed information which wasn't all too helpful. I think @Buidhe: could help more than I could, as they removed it initially and also have done wonders on this page. Flalf^Talk 03:59, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

@Flalf: Thank you for the response! I tried searching the talk page archive but I must have missed any conversation relating to this. And yes, I understand that this is a highly contentious subject so there is not always scholarly consensus on details. @Buidhe:, any assistance or feedback you can provide would be greatly appreciated. Feel free to edit my rough draft infobox if you see any room for improvement. Jonmaxras (talk) 04:15, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Armenian Genocide
Part of World War I, Dissolution of the Ottoman Empire
Bodil Biørn's caption: "The Armenian leader Papasian considers the last remnants of the horrific murders at Deir ez-Zor in 1915–1916."
Location	Ottoman Empire
Date	1915–?
Target	Ottoman Armenians
Attack type	Genocide, ethnic cleansing
Deaths	About 1 million
Perpetrators	Committee of Union and Progress
Motive	?
Trials	Turkish courts-martial of 1919–1920

• I am not convinced that an infobox helps, mostly because there are divergent opinions on what the genocide was and what it includes. If we're going to include it, we should make sure that it reflects the consensus of academic sources.
  • Dates: There is no consensus on the end date, some sources are just looking at 1915–1916, some say the end of the war, others are looking at the entire period 1915–1923. But if I had to pick one, Suny states (p. 330) "The Genocide of the Armenians can be said to have ended by late January 1917. Mass starvation continued, as well as sporadic killing. Refugees died, and fighting between Armenians, Turks, and Kurds went on until the early 1920s, but the intentional massacre of Armenians and Assyrians by the Ottoman state gradually ceased."
  • Death toll: This is obviously dependent on what dates are used. But 600,000 is lower than most estimates and 1.5 million is too high (see the quote from Morris & Ze'evi above). I'm inclined to split the difference and go with "about one million"
• Motive: There are two schools of thought on this. The majority view is that the Young Turks were not proto-Turkish-nationalists, but instead acted in response to a (greatly exaggerated) perception of threat. Another school of thought emphasizes the goal of Turkish nationalism/Turkification and stresses similarities between 1915–1916 and the postwar years, classifying both as part of the genocide. But the view that "religion and/or ethnicity were the underlying causes of the killings" is mostly rejected (Suny p. xiii)
• Perpetrator: the Committee of Union and Progress was the main perpetrator, often bypassing the official government and bureaucracy
• Trials: Essentially the only trials that were held were the Turkish courts-martial of 1919–1920

(t · c) buidhe 10:41, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

• Edit: the other reason that I am not convinced that infobox helps is that the lead is already supposed to contain the most important information, and well-written text is often better at conveying nuances, differing definitions, and disagreements among reliable sources. (t · c) buidhe 11:19, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
• User:Jonmaxras Interested to hear your thoughts. (t · c) buidhe 00:56, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
• I would support adding an infobox, but only if we can first reach consensus on what values should be listed. As Buidhe noted in the edit summary when removing the infobox Almost all fields in it [the infobox] are disputed, for example the idea of "Late Ottoman genocides", death toll, dates, motive, etc. Special:diff/989472112 — BillHPike (talk, contribs) 02:18, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
• @Buidhe: My apologies for the delay, I've been busy with work and some very active talk pages. I haven't abandoned this thread; I'll be able to look at this tomorrow. Jonmaxras (talk)

References

Armenian Genocide
Part of World War I
Bodil Biørn's caption: "The Armenian leader Papasian considers the last remnants of the horrific murders at Deir ez-Zor in 1915–1916."
Location	Ottoman Empire
Date	1915–Disputed
Target	Ottoman Armenians
Attack type	Genocide, ethnic cleansing
Deaths	Estimated around 1 million
Perpetrators	Committee of Union and Progress
Trials	Turkish courts-martial of 1919–1920

• I would support the addition of an infobox, but I am concerned that the "motive" section oversimplifies the situation. It neglects to mention the context of the event was World War I, unlike the infobox in The Holocaust which mentions the context as World War II. It also fails to mention that the event was part of the period known as the Dissolution of the Ottoman Empire (1908–1922), a period characterized by political instability, a series of coups, and loss of territory. Dimadick (talk) 19:58, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

  Dimadick, Both proposed infoboxes include World War I. Mentioning the Dissolution of the Ottoman Empire isn't a bad idea either but IDK where I'd put it. (t · c) buidhe 20:09, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

  • In the "part of" section. I tried adding it, mostly to see how it looks. Dimadick (talk) 20:13, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
    • I am not sure if that is quite accurate. From the perspective of the CUP, it was an effort to *resist* further dissolution, not part of the dissolution. (t · c) buidhe 21:20, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Alright, so I'm wondering if just removing the motive section from the infobox altogether would be better, since there's a lot that goes into it and it's difficult to summarize in a couple of words. The Dzungar genocide infobox is formatted that way. And changing the date to say 1915-disputed, that way it acknowledges that scholarly sources vary in defining the timeline. I'm indifferent to including Dissolution of the Ottoman Empire next to WWI, it's of course important but again takes a bit longer to explain how it's relevant. Thoughts? Jonmaxras (talk) 06:37, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Edit could motive be worded as 'Anti-Armenian sentiment'? Or is that an oversimplification? Jonmaxras (talk) 06:44, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Well, there's no doubt that CUP leadership had highly negative views of Armenians, but according to reliable sources that doesn't really explain their motivation for ordering the genocide. I think that is easier to explain in prose than in an infobox. Therefore, I think your version is acceptable, although IMO it doesn't add anything to the article beyond what's already in the lead. (t · c) buidhe 06:50, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

• Infobox was removed from the Holocaust in Slovakia article when it became featured—we decided that it was not adding any information. (t · c) buidhe 06:52, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

@Buidhe: Thanks so much for your help with this. I'm definitely partial to infoboxes; especially having ADHD, for me it makes an article easier to read. I can see how they're not always helpful, and I agree that one isn't necessary for the Holocaust in Slovakia. Are you fine if I add this to the main page? Or should we wait for more of a consensus here? Jonmaxras (talk) 03:42, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

Jonmaxras, I wouldn't object if you added it, since it does seem that a majority of users favor the inclusion of an infobox of some sort. (t · c) buidhe 03:49, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

4/24 redirect

Hi. 4/24 currently redirects here, but I doubt whether it should. While April 24 is the commonly accepted starting date of the Armenian Genocide, I wonder whether anyone intending to read about it would search for "4/24". April 24 is also the Armenian Genocide Remembrance Day, so that article would probably already be a more suitable target than this one. But even then, I wonder whether redirecting a variation of a date to a specific observance on that date instead of to the date itself is justified. It should also be noted that 24/4 redirects to April 24. Lennart97 (talk) 17:04, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Lennart97, I would agree that April 24 is probably a better redirect because other events also happened that day. You can boldly retarget yourself or else try WP:RfD if it's contested. (t · c) buidhe 17:14, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

@Buidhe: I see you've already retargeted, thanks! I figured it would be an uncontroversial retarget, but that if there were any serious argument against it, this would be the place to find out. Seems there isn't :) Lennart97 (talk) 21:28, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Location: Anatolia

• "Taken in their entirety, Ottoman and Western archives jointly confirm that the ruling party CUP did deliberately implement a policy of ethnoreligious homogenization of Anatolia that aimed to destroy the Armenian population" — Taner Akcam
• "This imperial violence was followed in 1915–17 with the forced deportation and subsequent destruction of almost the entire Armenian population of Asia Minor." — Fatma Muge Gocek, Denial of Violence (Asia Minor -> Anatolia)
• "Between the years 1915 and 1923 the vast majority of the Armenian population of Anatolia and historical West Armenia was eliminated."—Rouben Paul Adalian[3]
• "The persistence of genocide or near-genocidal incidents from the 1890s through the 1990s, committed by Ottoman and successor Turkish and Iraqi states against Armenian, Kurdish, Assyrian, and Pontic Greek communities in Eastern Anatolia, is striking." —Mark Levene[4]
• "Thereafter, in a wave spreading westwards and southwards throughout the empire from the provinces of eastern Anatolia - the areas of heaviest Armenian population - the Turkish government, led by the Ittihad ve Terakki Cemiyeti (Committee of Union and Progress: CUP), implemented an increasingly radical programme of deportation and murder."—Donald Bloxham[5]
• "Hans-Lukas Kieser, Kerem Öktem and Maurus Reinkowski argue that while the Ottoman Empire officially ended in 1922, when the Turkish nationalists in Ankara abolished the Sultanate, the essence of its imperial character was destroyed in 1915 when the Young Turk regime eradicated the Armenians from Asia Minor."[6]
• "Finally, a comprehensive scheme for the removal of the Armenian communities of Anatolia to Syria began in May 1915."[7]

I share this in relation to Diranakir ongoing reverts on the grounds that "Anatolia and adjoining regions" in inaccurate when referring to the location where the genocide took place. (When I search Armenian Genocide Turkey—their preferred terminology—on Google scholar, most results are discussing modern-day Turkish reactions to the genocide.) (t · c) buidhe 04:07, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

I touched on this in the proposed edits for the Death Toll section above, but will expand on “Armenians from Anatolia” here too. If Wikipedia editors, or the authors they chose to cite here, were to tell the Ottoman (Western) Armenians that they were “Armenians from Anatolia”, those Armenians would more likely than not laugh in their face. “Eastern Anatolia” is a relatively new toponym which has become increasingly more recognizable in literature. However, it is an innovation, not to say that it is a tautology meaning “Eastern East” and is essentially a Turkish invention to replace a more geographically and historically correct toponym “The Armenian Highlands” or “The Armenian Plateau”. Well, obviously, because the place name contains the ethnonym “Armenian”. Like I said above, there were no “Armenians from Anatolia”. Armenians were living for thousands of years in their native autochthonous habitat, most of which encompassed the Armenian Plateau. If this correct place name is for some unknown reason uncomfortable for the respected Wikipedia editors, I suggest replacing the absurd phrase “Armenians from Anatolia” with “Armenians living in the eastern provinces of the Ottoman Empire and adjoining regions” or “Armenians living in eastern Asia Minor” or “Armenians living in the northern part of Western Asia”.98.231.157.169 (talk) 01:20, 25 March 2021 (UTC)Davidian

I believe "Asia Minor" is a synonym of "Anatolia", and have no reason to prefer one of these over the other, but I disagree that there is anything wrong with "Armenians in Anatolia"; there are many scholarly sources which use such language and apparently see nothing wrong with it.[8] I agree that "Armenian Highlands" or "Armenian plateau" is a good term for what it refers to, and I used it in the article, but 1) the genocide also occurred in other parts of the empire; according to Kevorkian about 1/3 of the Armenian villages in the empire were located outside the Armenian Highlands 2) the genocide did not occur in Eastern Armenia which is also part of the Armenian Highlands. (t · c) buidhe 14:43, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

Anatolia, according to Wikipedia’s own article Anatolia is “a large peninsula in Western Asia and the westernmost protrusion of the Asian continent”. Sorry, but most Ottoman Armenians lived in easternmost protrusion of the Asian continent. If you believe that Asia Minor is a synonym of Anatolia and have no reason to prefer one of these over the other, then what stops you from replacing this relatively newly cooked term “Anatolia” with a more ancient and thus more geographically and historically correct term “Asia Minor”? Or, in the case of Armenians, “eastern Asia Minor”, to be exact?98.231.157.169 (talk) 14:58, 25 March 2021 (UTC)Davidian

One reason there are many scholarly sources which use “Anatolia” and, as you say, apparently see nothing wrong with it, is that, like I said, in the recent decades this made-up toponym has become more recognizable in the literature. However, it does not mean that this relatively new toponym was there throughout most of the history of the region. Not to say, as I noted already, that the phrase “Armenians from Anatolia” is a misnomer. Most Ottoman Armenians did not live on a large peninsula in Western Asia and the westernmost protrusion of the Asian continent (this is Wikipedia’s own definition of “Anatolia”). And, fyi, many other scholarly sources continue to use more ancient and more geographically and historically correct toponym “Asia Minor”, and not the Turkish novelty of “Anatolia”. But, for some reason, Wikipedia editors chose to use “Anatolia” with its wrong application to the habitat of most Ottoman Armenians. Why?!98.231.157.169 (talk) 16:10, 25 March 2021 (UTC)Davidian

Now replaced with "Asia Minor" per request. (t · c) buidhe 01:49, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

Thank you. Anatolia was dead wrong in all respects. Eastern Asia Minor would be more correct.98.231.157.169 (talk) 13:57, 26 March 2021 (UTC)Davidian

Concern about Article's Quality

It seems that over the past month or so User:Buidhe has done a massive, and frankly questionable overhaul of this article, removing a lot of information. His edits have gone mostly unquestioned, and I am concerned that his edits, in what essentially amount to mass deletion and rewriting, have had no oversight. I was wondering if anyone else noticed this issue. It's like someone's taken a hatchet to the article out of personal spite. Not to assume bad faith, however. 2601:85:C101:C9D0:5489:B4D0:54:EC11 (talk) 22:14, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

I think Buidhe has been doing a pretty good job at improving the article recently. Maybe you could point to some specific edits that you disagree with? Lennart97 (talk) 22:19, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

The Demographic losses section has been halved. Perhaps I missed his explanation, but I see no reason for the removal of all that text. Not to sound combative, but was there a reason for that removal? 2601:85:C101:C9D0:5489:B4D0:54:EC11 (talk) 22:36, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

When I started editing the article in early November last year, (old revision) the section in question cited questionable sources such as those from more than 1 century ago and news articles about political resolutions, which are not reliable sources for historical events. It also gave undue weight to one source, the "Talat Pasha's Black Book", when there are many sources historians use to calculate these figures. (There was also original research, with claims of academic consensus that were not found in the cited sources.)

I have rewritten the section based on recent scholarship and to follow WP:SUMMARYSTYLE (i.e. the details of what these estimates are based on belong in the dedicated sub-article, Casualties of the Armenian Genocide) (t · c) buidhe 23:18, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

I see, and so far your work has been good. But I would disagree with your removal of the Pasha book and the accompanying text. Not only did you remove it from this article, but it is nowhere to be found on the casualties page. The sources used in that paragraph are from the NYT and an Armenian research foundation studying the genocide. They don't seem unreliable to me. And there is also no issue with presenting a primary source about a historical event. This text should have been kept too: "While Ottoman censuses claimed an Armenian population of 1.2 million, Fa'iz El-Ghusein (the Kaimakam of Kharpout) wrote that there were about 1.9 million Armenians in the Ottoman Empire,[156] and some modern scholars estimate over 2 million.[157]" I also couldn't find any OR in the two middle paragraphs that you deleted from Demographic losses. At a minimum, retain this information in the casualties page. 2601:85:C101:C9D0:5489:B4D0:54:EC11 (talk) 23:44, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

I have also noted that Buidhe made some improvements, and usually they are pretty impressive and rather well sourced to describe it modestly. If what you claim is based on recent scholarship, you can just add it if the source is reliable.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 23:58, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Agreed about Buidhe, and I would have added them back (as the sources are reliable), but unfortunately I cannot. I am a dynamic IP (I have personal reasons for not creating an account), and this article is locked, so I am unable to edit. 2601:85:C101:C9D0:5489:B4D0:54:EC11 (talk) 00:00, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

OK, I've moved the content on the Black Book to the Casualties of the Armenian Genocide as well as added a section for prewar population estimates. The issue is that this article is supposed to be concise. Its current length, 8792 words, is about the recommended WP:Article size so one should be careful about adding more information that may not be necessary for the reader to understand the overall topic. (t · c) buidhe 00:03, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

You can also request edit on protected articles using Wikipedia:Edit requests. (t · c) buidhe 00:06, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Thank you! And keep up the good work! 2601:85:C101:C9D0:5489:B4D0:54:EC11 (talk) 03:15, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Plans for improving the article

OK, just to clarify what I am trying to do in the long run for the interest of transparency:

1. Improve sourcing There has been a lot of recent scholarship on the genocide so there's no reason to cite older or non-scholarly works, especially since they aren't necessarily in line with the current academic consensus. There should be a focus on books that are widely cited and represent mainstream interpretations, such as The Young Turks' Crime against Humanity, They Can Live in the Desert but Nowhere Else, The Armenian Genocide: A Complete History, or Talaat Pasha: Father of Modern Turkey, Architect of Genocide. If information is not covered in recent academic sources (last 10–15 years), it is likely WP:UNDUE.
2. Improve comprehensiveness without increasing length the aim is to keep the article about the same length as it is now (below 10,000 words). This will involve trimming in some areas as well as expansion to other topics not currently discussed. For example, right now the details of how deportation was carried out are kind of sketchy, as is what happened to Armenians in the camps in the Syrian Desert. What happened to the survivors after the genocide (as discussed by Keith David Watenpaugh among others[9]) is hardly mentioned at all.
3. Focus on analysis, rather than primary source evidence the purpose of an encyclopedia article is to explain the subject, not prove it. Therefore, the focus should be on what historians know and not how they know it. Primary source quotes can be deployed occasionally but the focus needs to be more on a coherent sequence of events according to reliable sources.

If these things can be accomplished the article will be close to WP:Good article status. (t · c) buidhe 02:54, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Topics whose coverage needs to be added or improved

• 1914 Armenian reforms
• 1914 Greek deportations
• Effect on Germany/Nazism
• Legacy of the genocide in Turkey, effect on political culture, later repressions, etc.
• CUP ideology
• How did the CUP go from cooperating with Armenian politicians to considering them the greatest danger?

(t · c) buidhe 08:24, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Sounds good! I was actually very surprised to find out just now that Hitler's Armenian reference isn't mentioned anywhere. Keep up the good work! Lennart97 (talk) 11:19, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Bodil Biørn's photograph

It's a striking photograph. There doesn't seem to be a date, but given that the individual in the image is looking at decomposed bodies and bones, it most probably was taken not long after the war and thus sometime when Dayr al-Zur was incorporated into French Mandate Syria. It's not entirely implausible that that is Vahan Papazian in the photograph (the only "Armenian leader" I can think of that Bjorn would be referring to). Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 16:03, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

• Marshal Bagramyan Perhaps he was, but "Papazian" is a common enough Armenian surname that I worry that we might be going into OR by trying to identify who it is without a reliable source that states so clearly. (t · c) buidhe 16:04, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

That's a shame. Wish we could learn more about that photo. Thanks, by the way, for your recent edits to this article. It's been in want of thorough editing and trimming for more than a decade and it's good to see it shaping up along proper form. Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 16:53, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 March 2021

Change "about 1 million" to "1.5 million." This page has historically reflected the fact that 1.5 million died. That number is the consensus among respectable historians, and rounding the number down is an insult to the memory of my ancestors and an act of complicity in the denial of this genocide. AerialIncrease (talk) 03:03, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

•  Not done Please see above discussions where editors decided to use a figure of 1 million based on recent, scholarly sources. (t · c) buidhe 04:03, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

Popular support and participation

• Akçam 2018 says: "The lack of an ideological mass-movement to provide popular support within Ottoman society for a genocidal policy seems to be another reason [for denial]." (p. 3) In the footnote, he adds: "As Mahmut Kamil Pasha’s telegram below shows, there was considerable popular disagreement with the government’s treatment of the Armenians. On this topic see George N. Shirinian, “Turks Who Saved Armenians: Righteous Muslims during the Armenian Genocide,” Genocide Studies International, 9, no. 2 (2015): 208–227; and Burçin Gerçek, Akıntıya Karşı: Ermeni Soykırımında Emirlere karşı Gelenler, Kurtaranlar, Direnenler (Istanbul: Iletişim, 2016)."
• Suny 2015 says: "The decisions, permission, and encouragement of a few in power provoked and stoked emotional resonance below. It turns out that a few killers can cause enormous destruction. Thugs, sadists, fanatics, and opportunists can with modern weaponry (or even with axes, clubs, and daggers) slaughter thousands with little more than acquiescence from the surrounding population. They in turn can inspire or let loose the rage of thousands of others who will carry out even greater destruction. Genocide in particular is an event of mass killing, with massive numbers of victims but not necessarily of massive numbers of killers."
• Ungor 2016 emphasizes the role of paramilitaries (rather than ordinary people) as killers. "In studies of the Armenian Genocide and accounts of the killings, the perpetrators, from the organizing elites to the rank-and-file executioners, have figured as evil faceless killers, undifferentiated and unexplained. The paramilitaries and tribesmen appear in the killing fields of Anatolia ex nihilo and murder people for no apparent reason other than intrinsic (Turkish or Islamic) cruelty and malignance. This chapter has challenged this essentialist convention by arguing that the involvement of seasoned criminals and militiamen hardened in years of (low-intensity) conflict in the Balkans, accounts for the cruelty of the genocide."

Are there any sources saying that genocide was generally popular among average Ottoman subjects? (t · c) buidhe 21:15, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

We may want to be more exact in what precisely we mean when we write that the genocide had (or did not have) popular support. Yes, paramilitary groups, gendarmes, and bands were responsible for a great deal of the bloodletting. But in many first-person accounts, there is evidence than in the midst of the deportations many a common man and woman had a hand in the looting, and, at times, even in the violence inflicted against the civilian population. How do we gauge popularity from that feigned or provoked by authorities to those genuine feelings of enmity that some among the Muslim population felt (and which aligns with Suny's own theory on the affective dispositions of people)? That's a tough one, given the nature of the sources. But there are countervailing facts that suggest that this was not just top-down imposed violence. Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 00:02, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

That's a fair criticism. Perhaps it would be best not to mention popular support or lack thereof, since it's very difficult to measure. (t · c) buidhe 09:15, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

I'd be happy with a different formulation but, no doubt, studies on the Armenian Genocide are only recently acquiring a level of sophistication on par with those on the Holocaust so, hopefully, in time we will have works that address important issues such as this one. Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 16:09, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

@Buidhe: It's a very important question you have raised. Communication and hate propaganda is crucial in the study of genocides. We may have some lost information about the native language publications. Most of what we know about this genocide comes from the international observers. As User:MarshallBagramyan correctly states above, we have very sophisticated studies on the Holocaust (Der Stürmer) and Rwanda (Radio Télévision Libre des Mille Collines) but here we are in the infancy of such studies. Gators bayou (talk) 19:41, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

First arrival of Turks to Anatolia

Rs4815, in his 1993 book, Suny states that Turks arrived "nearly a thousand years" after the Armenians did.[10] The sentence in the article refers to Turkish presence as opposed to Turkish *rule* over the area. But if you can find other reliable sources that disagree with Suny's timeline, please feel free to post them here with citation and quotes. (t · c) buidhe 10:56, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

Misleading map, Just look at Nagorno-Karabakh. For the record, in 1910 (and before the massacre of 1920) Armenians accounted for almost 60% of the population of Shushi and about 90% of the population of Hadrut (south of NK). And in Turkish Armenia, according to this map, Armenians lived only in Van, that's just a nonsense

Detailed more informative map

Buidhe, on what basis did you remove a more detailed map of the distribution of Armenians in Turkish Armenia? This article is about the Armenian genocide, the subject of the article is Armenians and not the settlements of Kurds in the Middle East. The British map doesn't show the detailed distribution of Armenians in the Armenian Highlands (for example, regions where Armenians made up 10-50% of the population), instead it shows the territory of the settlement of Kurds in the Middle East, where wherever the Kurds were at least a relative majority is colored yellow. This is a completely inaccurate and misleading map. The part of the map that shows Eastern Armenia is just a tragicomedy, as there are Russian census data that show a different picture. The German map is more detailed and shows the distribution of Armenians by region and their percentage in the population. --Rs4815 (talk) 11:52, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

I think that what's relevant to this article is not just where Armenians live, but also other populations, otherwise there's no context to the situation they are living in and the various land conflicts etc.. It's also preferable to use english-language maps than non-English ones, as this is English wikipedia and that makes things accessible for our readers. On the British map, if you look closer, it does make an effort to show minority populations as well and shows Armenians living in various places, hardly suggesting that "Armenians lived only in Van". Lastly, the 1910 population is more relevant to this article than the 1896 population. IDK much about the demographics of Russian Armenia, but I also don't see how that's relevant here. (t · c) buidhe 19:49, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

Also, the killings of Armenians in the Caucasus are already discussed in the "postwar" section, which is consistent with most scholarly sources. I do not support citing Britannica as it is not a scholarly source, is no more reliable than Wikipedia according to research, and has published denialist articles about the Armenian Genocide in the past.[11] (t · c) buidhe 02:04, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

• "what's relevant to this article is not just where Armenians live ... also preferable to use english-language maps", no, this is exactly what is relevant for this article. The ethnic distribution map of Arabs and Kurds in Iraq and the Levant is irrelevant to this topic. And German is not so different from English that English-speaking readers would not understand the context of the map and the meaning of the words "darüber 50%" (upper/above) and "unter 10%" (under). When we have a detailed German map (which also shows not only the distribution of Armenians, but also Christians in the region) and an uninformative, inaccurate English map, giving preference to an English map, just because of the language, is not constructive.
• "On the British map, if you look closer, it does make an effort", poorly made effort and most readers will not open the map in full size and zoom to see these little squares next to some settlements, they will just look at this yellow and brown oceans (btw why are Azeris and Turks represented by the same color?) and think that there were almost no Armenians in Western Armenia (Eastern Anatolia).
• "the 1910 population is more relevant to this article than the 1896 population ... IDK much about the demographics of Russian Armenia, but I also don't see how that's relevant here", I showed you above, using the example of Karabakh, that this map distorts the real demographic situation in the region, not in favor of the Armenians. If the creators of this map incorrectly reflected the situation even in those regions for which we have accurate census data, then what did they do with the Armenian population of the Ottoman Empire, for which there are only estimates, the official Ottoman statistics were biased and underestimated the number of Armenians. --Rs4815 (talk) 10:54, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

  I don't think that most readers understand German or could be expected to figure that out. Furthermore, even if it was useful information to have, the German map does not in fact display the Christian population in a legible way even if you zoom in.

  If you actually look at the British map at the given size, you can easily see many green/Armenian areas besides Van. Also, to the contrary, it absolutely matters whether Turks, Kurds, or Arabs lived in a given area since that has a lot to do with what happened in 1915 and afterward. In fact there were not many Armenians in Anatolia compared to the non-Armenian population (around 10% overall). If that's what the reader takes away, that's an accurate impression.

  Even if you're right about Eastern Armenia (you haven't cited any verifiable, reliable sources), what is most relevant to this article is the populations of Western Armenia, as close to 1914 as possible. The 1896 population is certainly inaccurate as a representation of the 1914 population. (t · c) buidhe 11:15, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

• "I don't think that most readers understand German", it's ok, we will give them a short description in English - the distribution of the Armenian population in the eastern vilayets of the Ottoman Empire
• "or could be expected to figure that out", most people have finished elementary school and understand that "%" is a percent sign.
• "German map does not in fact display the Christian population in a legible way", that is, small squares for the Armenian population are a "legible way" of representation, but the German map is not legible? I am beginning to have doubts about your constructive attitude on this topic, sir.
• "look at the British map at the given size", most readers will not zoom in on the map and will only see a yellow ocean with a small island near Van.
• "it absolutely matters whether Turks, Kurds, or Arabs lived in a given area", in the article on the Armenian genocide, an accurate representation of the Armenian population is much more important than what kind of Muslims they were neighbors with, Turks, Kurds, Circassians or Arabs. The German map is specifically about the Armenians, while the English map does not set itself the goal of a correct representation of the distribution of the Armenian population in the region, as you can see from the distorted representation of the situation in Eastern Armenia.
• "In fact there were not many Armenians in Anatolia compared to the non-Armenian population (around 10% overall)", I am not interested in Anatolia as a whole, but by claiming that Armenians constituted only 10% of the population of Eastern Anatolia (Western Armenia), you repeat the theses of the propaganda (lies) of the Turkish genocide deniers.
• "you haven't cited any verifiable, reliable sources", so you want me to cite here sources that the Armenians constituted the majority of the population in Shushi, Hadrut, Akhaltsikh or Artvin (etc.)? 111 years have passed since 1910, do you want to say that this English map is a reliable source of information for the modern encyclopedia? How many scientific works on the Armenian genocide have been published since then? Modern historians (not Turkish) estimate the number of Armenians in the empire to be 2-2.5 million people, while official Ottoman statistics greatly underestimated the Armenian populaton. The English map could be based on Ottoman propaganda. In fact, we now have in our hands two very old maps, both of questionable reliability (since... they are old), the only difference is that we can prove, using the data of the Russian censuses of the population of Eastern Armenia, that the English map underestimates the number of the Armenian population (even when they had access to Russian census data! What can we say about Western Armenia, where there were no such accurate censuses), while the German map is less controversial. --Rs4815 (talk) 19:01, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

(t · c) Buidhe, Suny did not state that “Turks arrived nearly a thousand years after the Armenians did”. What?! Here’s what he wrote, figuratively speaking, in black ink on white paper in his 1993 book “Looking Toward Ararat: Armenia in Modern History”. On p. 30 in Chapter 1, “Armenia and its Rulers”, we read: “By this inhuman policy the Turks tried to eliminate a people who had lived in eastern Anatolia for nearly a thousand years before the Turks had arrived.” The key word is had lived, meaning, if I may elaborate, that the Armenians had been living on their lands before the Seljuk Turks "arrived" from Inner Asia and the Central Asian steppes in the 10th century AD invading most of Western Asia and the Middle East. There is no "Armenians arrived" in sight.98.231.157.169 (talk) 01:58, 25 March 2021 (UTC)Davidian

On the other page cited he gives the date when Armenian population is first recorded in the area, in the sixth century BCE. (t · c) buidhe 02:20, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

Suny is likely referring to the Behistun Inscription Behistun_Inscription dated sixth century BC, where Armenia is recorded by order of Persian King Darius I as “Armina”, although the ethnogenesis of the Armenians well predates sixth century BC. Even if we assume, for a moment, that Seljuk Turks “arrived” a thousand years after that arbitrarily selected date, it will make their “arrival” date at sixth century AD. Well, there is no way that such a respected historian as Suny cannot know that there were no Turks in sight in Western Asia and the Middle East in the sixth century AD. All historical records indicate that Seljuk Turks invaded these regions from Inner Asia and the steppes of Central Asia beginning in the tenth to eleventh century AD.98.231.157.169 (talk) 02:37, 25 March 2021 (UTC)Davidian

I'm happy to change this if you can find a scholarly source that gives a different date of 1) Armenians first being recorded in Anatolia and/or 2) Turks first being recorded in Anatolia. (t · c) buidhe 03:35, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

Gladly. On one "condition", so to say, that there has never been such a place name as "Anatolia" at the time when Armenians were recorded in the ancient chronicles or when new-comer Turks appeared in the indigenous habitat of the Armenians, Pontic Greeks, Assyrians, Kurds and others in eastern Asia Minor or northern sector of Western Asia. Anatolia is a relatively modern toponym purposefully introduced by the Turks to substitute any mention of Armenians in Asia Minor, such as the Armenian Plateau. "Armenians from Anatolia" in your introductory sentence is an affront to serious geographers, topographers, historians, genocide scholars, and to the memory of the millions of descendants of the genocide survivors. Consider revising. I offered several neutral variants in the "Anatolia" section above.98.231.157.169 (talk) 14:26, 25 March 2021 (UTC)Davidian

Also, what is meant by “arrival” of the Turks? What, the indigenous autochthonous peoples of the region had been waiting for thousands of years for the nomadic Seljuk Turk tribes to “arrive” in the 11th century AD? Oh, and they forgot to roll out the red carpet for them… It was an invasion, not arrival, from the Turks' original habitat in Inner Asia and the steppes of Central Asia. Things must be called by their true names.98.231.157.169 (talk) 14:38, 25 March 2021 (UTC)Davidian

If it was an invasion rather than a more peaceful settlement/migration, and sources back that up, I have no objection to changing to "invasion". (t · c) buidhe 14:47, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

Gladly. I'll collect data sources and revisit this thread. Fyi: Peaceful settlers/migrants do not come to foreign lands with fire and sword. See, for example, Wikipedia's own article Battle of Manzikert (talk) 15:33, 25 March 2021 (UTC)Davidian

Recent edit

Hi, first I'd like to thank Gators bayou for their efforts to improve the article! However, there are a few concerns I have about this edit:

Lead

• Although a majority of historians accept the facts of the Armenian genocide I think this wording could be improved since it does not tell the reader which facts. Perhaps we could say that "Most historians acknowledge that a genocide took place"? ("Majority" would understate the support for this preposition.)
• Turkish government denies that these events constituted a genocide. That's accurate, but it makes it sound as if the main dispute is around the use of the word "genocide". In fact, the crux of the issue according to various RS is whether the events that make up the genocide can be considered a legitimate state action in response to rebellion or a criminal act on the part of the government, intended to destroy the Armenian people.
• ethnically homogenous state It may be misleading to imply that Turkey in 1923 was an "ethnically homogenous" country, given the many immigrants from various countries, Kurds, etc. It was however based around Turkish ethnic nationalism.

Background

• In this section, a book from 1967 was cited. As stated in one of the sections above, I was trying to write the article based on recent scholarship only. If I were reviewing this article at FAC source review, I would question the use of a source that's so old and wonder if what's cited to it is backed up by current scholarship.
• "Armenian Plateau" is the same place as "Armenian Highlands". I don't think it's helpful to give the name of the place in Turkish (the relevant language here would actually be Ottoman Turkish.) Both Suny and Kévorkian use the term "Armenian plateau" instead of highlands so I wouldn't be averse to changing as long as we're consistent.

Aftermath

• I believe that the Treaty of Sevrès deserves a mention here since it is mentioned by all sources that discuss the postwar era, even Suny who doesn't go into much detail at all. Perhaps a bit more explanation of why it's significant to this article would help.
• The section split is not very helpful IMO, you end up with several minuscule sections which is strongly discouraged by MOS, and causes some other issues:
  • Incorrectly implies that vorpahavak only took place in the Middle East, when actually it happened wherever Allies exercised some control
  • the part about blockading and invading Armenia is cut off from the discussion about the responsible party.
• Most of the material in your "Turkish Republic" is about the time period before Turkey was founded (in 1923).

Legacy

• The "Turkey" section is not supposed to cover just denialism but also long term effects of genocide on Turkey's economy, politics, culture, international relations and so forth.

(t · c) buidhe 22:16, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

Your edit summary said you reverted all my changes 'per talk page discussion'. I restored it because you edit has undone more than what you have explained here and because your substantial changes to the article are new and don't yet have consensus. I think my changes were an improvement over the version you reverted to. You removed the sections for Soviet Armenia and Diaspora, which I have tagged for expansion based on your objection above. The content about the establishment about Soviet Armenia should not be in the section about the Turkish War of Independence, and the section being short is no excuse for that. I am going to address the rest of your objections one by one to work towards the consensus version, but please do not do these reverts of other editors work. Other editors are also allowed to contribute. Gators bayou (talk) 16:30, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

No, you should make one paragraph sections and tag them for expansion. This article needs to be kept fairly short and on-topic, not expanded with tangential subjects.

Yes, the establishment of Soviet Armenia is closely tied to the Turkish war of independence. As you can see by the fact that it's discussed in the chapter of books on the subject.

Yes, anyone can edit. However, that does not mean that you should restore changes that are disputed without even explaining why the objection is wrong. Yes, your changes do include more than is strictly discussed here, but the other changes aren't helpful either in my opinion. For example you removed mention of the Armenian Question from the lead, but this is absolutely crucial to understanding why the genocide occurred. (t · c) buidhe 20:15, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Also, it's bad form to change the article so it doesn't meet the Good article criteria while it's up for review. (t · c) buidhe 21:10, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

As someone who's been seeing these changes happen but is not directly involved with this article, I have to say I agree with Buidhe on this one. She reverted your edits only after raising specific objections to them at this talk page. It's on you to address these concerns, not to simply re-instate your edits when there's a clear lack of consensus for them. And you certainly shouldn't be going around placing tags like these without as much as an edit summary. I also agree that it's disruptive to make bold, drastic changes like these just now that the article is up for a GA review, after Buidhe has been working for months to get it up to GA status. Lennart97 (talk) 11:07, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

I don't know what GA status is but there has been a lot of objection to Buidhe's edits on the talk page. There are multiple sections started by different editors with objections to Buidhe's edits. She is reverting everyone else's changes to the article. This includes altering the death toll to an "Estimated one million" (despite objections in other sections of this talk page, it is still in the article). I also don't know why I should not be placing tags on the article where they are needed. Why are Armenia and Azerbaijan discussed in one section? It is vague whether the sentence is talking about protests in Yerevan against the genocide or against the Nagorno-Karabagh conflict. I don't think it can attain any "GA status", whatever that is, by Buidhe reverting everyone else's changes and forcing her version through. Gators bayou (talk) 12:00, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

• If you check closely these are editors who are not citing scholarly sources (or when they are, misrepresenting them), but instead their own unsubstantiated opinion, which doesn't count for much. In the meantime, you seem to have ignored and not even replied to what I wrote above, since you're still making the same undesirable changes: "ethnonational" -> "national" when the former is meant, unlink a notable phenomenon sedentarization of Kurdish tribes against WP:REDLINK, understate the support for this event being a "genocide"—it's an academic consensus rather than simple majority—create stub paragraphs, insert irrelevant content about Australia and Israel, and more. Since you don't seem to be familiar with what's expected of a good article, perhaps it would be a good idea to suggest changes on the talk page rather than change the article so it doesn't meet the criteria. (t · c) buidhe 13:32, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Here we go again. The source doesn't say ethnonational but it means "ethnonational" according to Buidhe and any editor who disagrees has all their contributions reverted. I am removing this unsourced content from the article. Gators bayou (talk) 11:02, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

That is untrue, I quote from Suny 2015: "The Armenian Genocide was a central event in the last stages of the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire and the foundational crime that along with the ethnic cleansing and population exchanges of the Anatolian Greeks made possible the formation of an ethnonational Turkish republic" (t · c) buidhe 11:17, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for giving us that quote. It's on page 349. The page you cited was 364. Gators bayou (talk) 11:41, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

• • FYI your edit summary, "massacres are always indiscriminate" is dead wrong. Sometimes only villages that are rebelling are massacred or only certain segments of the population are massacred, as in Srebrenica massacre. (t · c) buidhe 13:39, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

That is a good point about Srebenica. Gators bayou (talk) 11:41, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

• FYI I find "definitions" better than "historians" for the sentence about Turkish war of independence. Historians either include or (more often) exclude this era from the "Armenian Genocide", but other people who are not professional historians may also define the "Armenian Genocide" as including this period. "Definitions" is inclusive of other people besides professional historians. (t · c) buidhe 12:13, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

It makes it sound like there are different definitions of genocide. You should not be explaining this on the talk page but in the article. The only statement about this in the article says that it is the opinion of some historians, or maybe just one historian. I don't remember now. As a separate issue, I'm not sure that is due weight in the lead. Gators bayou (talk) 12:48, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

Gators bayou, per MOS:LEAD all significant aspects of the article should be covered in the lead. Since there are "Postwar" and "Turkish war of independence" sections in the body we need to say at least something minimal about what happened after the war. (t · c) buidhe 13:05, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

The article doesn't discuss definitions of genocide at all. Almost all scholars use the same definition "systematic destruction in whole or part" AFAIK. Gators bayou (talk) 13:37, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

??? This has nothing to do with the definition of genocide but the temporal boundaries of a historical event, where different opinions exist as to start and end dates. (t · c) buidhe 14:41, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

• Gators bayou I do not think "denies the Armenian Genocide" is a clear expression at all. What does it mean to deny the Armenian genocide? It's considerably more than rejecting the use of the word "genocide" to describe the event, but it is less than claiming the events described in this article never occurred. If you read the article on Armenian Genocide denial you can find the nuances of it, but the crux of the matter is, according to Akcam, that denial "takes as its starting point the assumption that the events of 1915 were derived from governmental actions that were, in essence, within the bounds of what are considered normal and legal actions for a state entity and cannot therefore be explained through a recourse to criminality or criminal law." (2012 p. 451) If you don't like the Bloxham quote, perhaps you could pick something from Armenian Genocide denial#Consequences that you think works better? (t · c) buidhe 12:24, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

"Denies the Armenian Genocide" is a fact, it's concise and encompasses the points you raise. The linked article is the where the reader can find out more about these additional nuances. The style of linking "denies a crime was committed against the Armenian people" this change was needed because the link should not be obscured. Does this change go against the criteria? Gators bayou (talk) 12:48, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

Gators bayou, I don't think it does. The issue is that people will be more familiar with other forms of denialism such as Holocaust denial or climate change denial, both of which assert that the event (Holocaust or manmade climate change) simply did not/is not occurring. This is not the case with Armenian Genocide denial, so "denies the Armenian Genocide" can be misleading to the average reader who is not familiar with the topic. I don't see anything in MOS:LINK that discourages such clarification. (t · c) buidhe 13:02, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

I was hopeful that we would reach a compromise or consensus but you are forcing your preferences into the article and reverting without explanation. Gators bayou (talk) 13:11, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

The previous version of the article before I edited it stated "Turkey denies the word genocide is an accurate term", which understates the issue but is at least less misleading than the versions you are proposing. (t · c) buidhe 14:41, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

Death toll and map

I wanted to correct the article as there are lack of sources. The death toll of the armenian genocide is around 1.5 million used by common sources. The death toll ranges to 1.4-1.6 million. The map is not correct, the one I wanted to add is a map made by a German ethnographic Richard Andrée in 1914, showing areas of Armenian settlement in blue: source=https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ethnic_map_of_Asia_Minor_and_Caucasus_in_1914.jpg. Thank you for your attention — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aidepikiwmeca (talk • contribs) 12:47, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

• No, most academic sources cite a somewhat lower number than that. This has been discussed above. The 1914 map is low quality and the level of detail is much lower than the British one making it not ideal. (t · c) buidhe 13:51, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

There was no consensus whatsoever, 1 million is as WP:POW estimate based on selective period of selective sources. Contemporary sources, e.g. NY Times desember 1915 issue, puts the death toll at 1 million and steadily increasing 8 month after the start of genocide Addictedtohistory (talk) 14:56, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

I can give you the link for a better quality map: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/Armenians_ethnic_map_1905.png?1616162475524. Taner Akçam, an historian of turkish origin give the death toll at least of 1.3 million armenian and explains that this number is given by the telegram of Talat Pasha. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aidepikiwmeca (talk • contribs) 14:07, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

This map is low resolution and is in much less detailed than the British map, for instance there are many placenames marked on the British map and its showing of ethnic locations is more fine-grained. Also, the German map shows Armenians and Kurds in almost the same color, making it hard to get an accurate picture esp. some of our readers are color-blind.

Akcam found that the number of Armenians deported was 1.2 million and the number of deportees who died was less than that. See the "death toll" section. (t · c) buidhe 14:48, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

The number is completely WP:POW and contradicts the contemporary sources. NY times, December 1915 issue puts the death toll to 1 million and rising after first 8 month of the genocide. The death toll of modern historian, Akcam, is 1 million during first year of the genocide. Addictedtohistory (talk) 08:56, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

• "Range" implies a single estimate of between 800,000 - 1.5 million. Buidhe's attempt to find the middle ground of that range obscures the scholarship. It is not a "range" but more precisely "Estimates range" and because that is how it is described by the majority of scholarly works it would be the most fitting for the infobox of Wikipedia. Gators bayou (talk) 12:39, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

  Nah, not really, if we were really doing a range it would start lower, since there are some noteworthy estimates around 600,000. But, since it would be difficult and perhaps impossible to find the legitimate outer points of a range (as Morris and Ze'evi state, 1.5 million is also too high an estimate for such a range, and I have not seen such a figure validated with recent estimates), I prefer to leave the detailed discussion to the "death toll" section. (t · c) buidhe 13:37, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

I appreciate your work on this article but I don't find it an acceptable proposal that we leave "estimated 1 million" in the infobox without citation. I fully appreciate the difficulty (impossibility?) of knowing the death toll, but you should at least have the citations to the infobox proving the word "estimated" is used by recognized scholars. This is a controversial article and it's expected that editors will make objections to these types of changes. A footnote may be one option to let readers know there is more detailed discussion in the article. Gators bayou (talk) 11:25, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

Maybe something as simple as "Estimated around 1 million (see death toll)"? Lennart97 (talk) 11:56, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

This talk has not been constructive. A single wiki editor does not WP:OWN the article. The estimate of 1 million has not met consensus. I specifically referred several times above to the contemporary source, the December 15th 1915 issue of NY times, that puts the death toll at 1 million and steadily increasing 8 month through the genocide, which invalidates the estimate of 1 million. Addictedtohistory (talk) 23:19, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

 Done (t · c) buidhe 12:31, 26 March 2021 (UTC)