Talk:George Washington Carver

missing sections

Not sure why but most of this article is not appearing. The article appears to finish at the end of the "Rise to fame" section. However viewing the article though "edit this page" reveals that there is a lot more that is mow missing including further images and text. As this is a protected page I can not edit it to restore the missing sections. Can this be put right please 16:27, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

                   ----seems ok now-----

How common are Americans who get their name like this: the last name is the same as the rest of the family, but the first and middle names come from someone who is not related to the family?? - Nicole Lambardi age 12

• Naming patterns go through trends and fashions, and it's not particularly common now - for two names, anyway, there are more "Britney's" than you'd expect from chance alone.... But there were times in the past when it was very common to name a child after an unrelated person whom one admired, and president's names ("George Washington", "Thomas Jefferson") and other "patriotic" notables ("Benjamin Franklin") were not at all uncommon choices. - Nunh-huh 02:19, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

• See Winfield Scott and Winfield Scott Hancock for another interesting example. One of my own ancestors was also named after Winfield Scott, a popular war hero in the 19th Century. H2O 19:34, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

In 1974 the Carver Museum at Tuskegee Institute, which Carver had helped develop, credited him with 287 peanut products. One hundred twenty-three were foods and beverages, sixty-eight were paints or dyes, the rest were cosmetics, stock foods, medicinal preparations, and miscellaneous items. Many items were duplicated under different names: listed as separate entries, for example, were bar candy, chocolate-coated peanuts, and peanut chocolate fudge; all-purpose cream, face cream, face lotion, and hand cream; thirty dyes for cloth, nineteen dyes for leather, and seventeen wood stains. Many of the products were not original in any case. Bar Candy using peanuts and chocolate-coated peanuts were already being ate in restaurants in New Orleans as early as the late 1880s to early 1890s. Even salted peanuts were an entry. One particular entry, the "face bleach and tan remover," is still unknown because Carver did not present forumlas for most of his products. Many consider this particular invention to be bogus, including it with the previously mentioned face creams. He did come up with a lot of uses for the peanut, but many were duplicated, sometimes already discovered, or bogus alltogether. No one knows why he included the duplicated inventions. Some claim that he wanted to run the number of his inventions up while others attribute it to old age since he did catalogue his inventions for the museum when he was quite old. The latter is probably closer to the truth.

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i haven't been active in the wikipedia for a long time, but... wtf. this nonsense about carving peanuts and relationships with his assistant has been sitting unchanged a month? Wmorgan

• I made a small edit to the article after the "sculpture" nonsense appeared and am embarrassed that I didn't catch it. I have to admit, it was funny, though. H2O 23:05, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Carver was gay and had an assistant named Austin Curtis, Jr., who was a former teacher. He helped him with many of his projects, and the two briefly dated as well.

Is this serious? It was added by a logged-in contributor, but similar previous additions were anonymous and were reverted as vandalism. -Montréalais 08:17, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

No one knows if Carver was gay. Why does it even matter? People are too obsessed about stuff like that these days.

We disagree with the comment about a relationship between Carver and Curtis. According to Marilyn Nelson the professor wrote to Curtis' father that Austin seemed to him more like a son than an assistant. Curtis had become baby Carver, and his children had aquired a third grandpa.

We agree with your disagree that Carver and Curtis were like father and son. Curtis was like the heir to Carver's plant world. I do however feel that he may of had a relationship with Jim Hardwick. His shock about the marriage shows he had more than a mentor relationship.

I think this article should be more detailed. I have just added several details. WikiPedia should be more focused towards what an actual encyclopedia would. Heck, this site has more information on the Simpsons, a cartoon show, than George Washington Carver, a genius that invented dozens of things commonly used today. --MAX Allen

GW Carter invented dozens of things we use today?

Name one.

Most of his "discoveries" were either not novel or were of mere curiousity value.

Please name one discovery of his that impacts us in any way, shape or form.

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• I think you'll agree that at least a few of these things he developed/improved have lasting use:

Adhesives Axle Grease Bleach Buttermilk Cheese (synthetic) Chili Sauce Cream Creosote Dyes Flour Fuel Briquettes Ink Instant Coffee Insulating Board Linoleum Mayonnaise Meal Meat Tenderizer Metal Polish Milk Flakes Mucilage Paper Rubbing Oils Salve Soil Conditioner Shampoo Shoe Polish Shaving Cream Sugar Synthetic Marble Synthetic Rubber Talcum Powder Vanishing Cream Wood Stains Wood Filler Worcestershire Sauce

• Source: Hattie Carwell. Blacks in Science: Astrophysicist to Zoologist. Hicksville, N.Y.: Exposition Press), 1977. p. 18.

And he was given 3 patents for developing cosmetics, paints and stains from soybean.

U.S. 1,522,176 Cosmetics and Producing the Same. January 6, 1925. George W. Carver. Tuskegee, Alabama.

U.S. 1,541,478 Paint and Stain and Producing the Same June 9, 1925. George W. Carver. Tuskegee, Alabama.

U.S. 1,632,365 Producing Paints and Stains. June 14, 1927. George W. Carver. Tuskegee, Alabama.

--nixie 01:47, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

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Sorry, I don't agree.

Most of the items and uses he supposedly developed were either not original, were poorly described (he left no formulas behind for many of his "creations"), or of no more than novelty application.

That he only had three patents out of his reams of asserted "inventions" demonstrates that he originated very little. Peanuts were important in cosmetics long before Carver came along.

I must point out that you have failed to point to a single Carver discovery still in use today. That he, for example, may have worked on a lubricant does not mean he invented a lubricant that was important in any way. I could create a lubricant from Frankenberry cereal, but that does not mean my product is useful or economical.

A scholarly article penned by a National Park Service historian, Barry Mackintosh, reveals that Carver was more of a self-promoter than a pioneer: http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=256246&messageid=1088896552&lp=1088896552

He was largely a failure as an educator, and not much of a scientist. He claimed that "Mr. Creator" was his muse in the lab, revealing uses for the peanut to Carver.

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That he only had three patents out of his reams of asserted "inventions" demonstrates that he originated very little. - I have read statements by Carver that he did not believe in the exclusionary nature of patents. Therefore, it would be incorrect to assume that his disinterest in obtaining patents somehow demonstrates a failure to qualify for them.

Furthermore, you say:

I must point out that you have failed to point to a single Carver discovery still in use today. That he, for example, may have worked on a lubricant does not mean he invented a lubricant that was important in any way.

That statement is slightly ridiculous. Many inventions have a lifespan, but that does not necessarily discount from their value at the time they were invented. Take your lubricant example. A peanut-based lubricant may be environmentally safe, though it may not be "economical" today (or have been in Carver's lifetime) in light of envornmentally hazardous lubricants in widespread use. Is a once-groundbreaking microchip that is no longer in widespread use not pinoneering simply because it has been improved upon and supplanted by newer versions?

The Mackintosh article makes numerous misleading assertions (and assumptions), and I felt many aspects of that article are not valid. Most inventors of years past were "self-promoters" (e.g., Alexander Graham Bell, Thomas Edison). Indeed, many pioneering inventions are never widely adopted due to political, marketing and other reasons that have nothing to do with the utility of the invention.

The fact remains that none of Carver's "inventions" (if he in fact had any) was ever adopted on any detectable scale. Certainly, none of his inventions can be considered "pioneering" if it neither stood on its own or was the genesis of some important development. The lifecycle of Carver's putative inventions was stillborn. BulldogPete

Carver did nothing to introduce crop rotation

This is simply laughably false, and suggests Carver was somehow a pioneer in crop rotation.

This article is typical of the leftest slant to wikipedia. GW Carver can honestly be described as 95% showman and publicist/5% amateur scientist.

If you can find some sources which disprove Carver's research into crop rotation then please present them. A simple Google search on Carver and crop rotation brings up plenty of sources that say otherwise. Also, please sign your talk page comments (by adding four tildes (~) at the end) and, if you going to be editing much, a username is a big help. -Willmcw 03:45, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)

In all fairness to the anon, he did not develop crop rotation, but he taught the technique in the Southern United States, this article did make some overzealous statements about Carvers acheievments, which I have been adjusting with research--nixie 03:51, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Carver did absolutely nothing to introduce crop rotation:

Carver sought to extend the station's influence with the bulletins, leaflets, and circulars appearing under his name from 1898 to his death. "But few technical terms will be used," he promised in his first bulletin, and all but one of the forty he issued offered elementary information on farming and related rural concerns to the uneducated farmer.[29] The bulletins and other farming publications contained little of substance that had not already been printed in bulletins of the Agriculture Department or other experiment stations, and Carver's themes were not new even at Tuskegee. Much of what he would preach was summarized in a leaflet published by the institute before his arrival: "Do not plant too much cotton, but more corn, peas, sugar-cane, sweet-potatoes etc., raise hogs, cows, chickens, etc." [1]

-- Sixpackshakur

If you take the time to read the article you'll see that the overstament of Carvers achievments has been removed--nixie 23:00, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

I read the article but was responding to Willmcw, as is my privilege. Sixpackshakur 02:42, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Carver was one of the most influential men alive.

You ppl dont know what u are talking about . 1st of all Carver was not gay.

2nd he was a genius and none (maybe 1 or 2) of his inventions or discoveries were accidents.

3rd Carver was a highly spiritual person (probably the reason why he didnt marry) .

4th Carver has done as many good deeds as any of you could do in 100 of your puny lives.

5th Even though he was ill treated by the whites he did not hate them showing that he was a highly humanitarian person and believed that God did not put him on the Earth to hate.

6th It would be a greater gift than any of you can imagine to be him. - unsigned comments by User:Wikiuser9000

Thanks for working on the biography of this great person. However I notice that you're also deleting info for no apparent reason. Please try to keep as much of the existing information as you can, and then give an explanation when you do delete something. Also, please don't put each sentence on its own line, just make them into paragraphs. Thanks. -Willmcw 19:35, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

And there's no need to insult your co-editors (unless, in fact, God put you on Earth to hate us). --Dystopos 04:09, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Different Person: Why do you think an accident made Gw.C famous66.41.126.203 02:35, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Plagiarism

In accordance with the instructions in Wikipedia:Copyright_problems, I reverted edits from May 31, 2005 (here) that did not represent the (unsigned) contributor's own work. Obviously, there was information about Dr. Carver that perhaps should be included in this article, but since the material appears in full at its source it is still easily available (not to mention through other sources). Josquin 22:01, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Block quote

Homosexuality is not normal and whatever moron posted this section must be a fag himself and all this crap about Goerge Washington Carver being gay is so not true and you have no evidence to back it up so there is three possibilities 1.you're an idiot2.you're an idiot and3.you're an idiot if you would like to email me it's rysizzle05@yahoo.com

I was recently reading about this man on NNDB.com and came across a reference claiming he was gay. Does anyone have further information on this subject? It would make an interesting side-note.

I have heard of the possibility that he was gay, but every time someone tries to add it to this article, there is all sort of name-calling and finger pointing. My opinion is...if you can list verifiable sources and are willing to take the heat, then go for it. If it is just a rumor or supposition - look out, it probably won't be taken wery well.--Master Scott Hall 16:30, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

This man is listed as asexual in the asexual article Monkeyduck 01:21, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Mr. Carver was gay all his life. He always had assigned to him male student interns and lab assistants and they always dreaded the assignment because he would force himself on them and they would not come forward publicly and accuse him because of his public reputation. It was common knowledge to the students and faculty of Tuskegee Institute in the 1940's, but due to the brutal and severe nature of racial and economic discrimination in the South, it was not deemed advisable to discredit any Afro-American leader in any way, as he would receive no justice due to the dual standard of justice in this country that still exists and the activities of radical racial-based secret societies that still operate. Public lynchings of black men still occurred in the Tuskegee Institute area up into the 1960's and Montgomery was the first capital of the Confederate States of America. Tuskegee Institute was an all black college-oasis in the middle of an extremely segregated, violent, agriculturally based White society that still resented losing free slave labor for it's plantations. Revenge and racism were rampant. While President Abraham Lincoln was rumored to sleep with his male military bodygard in the White House when his wife was away, and centers of northern culture allowed homosexuality among actors, florists, painters, and other creative workers, the American South was still a closed society in the 20th Century except in larger urban areas with populations exceeding 100,000.

Interesting, and I caught the NNDB profile as well. However, without links that contain verifiable proof, it can't be added. --AWF

Vandalism

I think this page gets my vote for one of Wiki's most vandalized pages. Though I do have a question, is all of this vandalism from multiple users or one specific user? I'd think given the fact that most of the edits are in the form of 'he is gay' etc that it is from one user. Juuust curious. --ImmortalGoddezz 17:18, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

I have noticed the same and agree. Vandalism is unacceptable. People have pointed out that he may have been gay, but the only way that it is admissible in this article is if it is verifiable. Since Carver is dead, as is anyone (male or female) whom he would have had an intimate relationship, and by all accounts, he never "came out", I don't see how his sexual preference could ever be verified. At most, it could be included in a "Controversy" section at the bottom of the article, but only if someone could cite a verifiable source. This particular user has a history of vandalism, but the IP used belongs to a public school. Since I don't think it would be wise to block such an IP, perhaps it would be prudent to request page protection. Since this user vandalizes regularly on many different articles, I think that the only way to be successful in a protection request is to show a vandalism pattern on this article by numerous other users. See Wikipedia:Semi-protection policy --Master Scott Hall 18:40, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Minor edit

I just put in Information about Carver's work on Soy products while he was with Henry Ford.Angrynight 05:54, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

grammar stuff

does it bother anyone that the meat of this article begins with "over the next few years" ?

If it bothers you go ahead and fix it. Cheers, -Will Beback 21:00, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Major Addition to Carver Inventions/Improvements section

I expanded the section on Carver Inventions using authoritative sources, which were footnoted, to correct widespread misconceptions. I also added two 2006 online articles to the External Links section.

Does anyone object to removing the term "Improvements" from the Inventions section? I have never seen that term applied to Carver products before. It seems inappropriate because Carver and his biographers never cast his purported inventions in that way. Without formulas for virtually all of Carver's inventions, one could not be sure they were improvements anyway. Plantguy 00:55, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Did he visit the USSR?

I have heard that he did. I think I read it in a "left-wing" book on African American history, maybe Before the Mayflower. That might be interesting to include in the article.Steve Dufour 19:24, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I have read that he was consulted long-distance on agricultural methods by the Soviet Union, but it seems very unlikely that he actually went there.

Even the claim that he was contacted by the Soviet Union should be checked carefully. Greg Kuperberg 16:37, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Named after the first President

Isn't it obvious that he was named after George Washington, the first President of the United States?67.188.172.165 04:10, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Categorization

I am removing Carver from the 'Development specialists' category. This category covers individuals who play a role in international development. Carver did a lot of great things, but he only worked in the USA. APB-CMX 15:20, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Troubles + Disputed sect's

I hate wiki articles that do this: isolated criticisms sections that overwhelm the text and throw-off due weight. This page makes for a truly bizarre read: something of a panegyric to start and then two sections which seem designed for the sole purpose of denigrating the man. They are sourced, but they should be reduced. Marskell 08:44, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that the section on Carver's reputed inventions is more correct than the rest of the article. I have seen no evidence that Carver ever had a single serious invention. All of his inventions as far as I have seen are either simple announcements or kitchen recipes. He did eventually have three patents, which may have been his most serious try, but even these were not commercially successful. If you trace the references back, they always go back either to nothing, or they go back to kitchen recipes. Read "How to Grow the Peanut and 105 Ways of Preparing it for Human Consumption", Carver's own words, if you don't believe me.

Unfortunately, there is an ocean of thin claims that Carver invented hundreds of uses for the peanut and other plants. Most Americans are convinced that it is true. They are convinced at school, and they are convinced by repetition. The sources that say so feed on each other. It's just something that people want to say and believe. Someone recently edited the Wikipedia page and added back these unsubstantiated praises, without even checking the rest of the same page.

But I agree with you that the two critical sections could be better written, especially the section on "troubles" at Tuskegee. That section also makes some truthful points that contradict the rest of the same article. For example, the article says that Carver did not believe in personal gain, but he did. Not only did he file patents, he started a company (or more than one) and tried to sell some of his products.

The best thing would be to reconcile the different parts of the article to make it consistent and polite. However, just removing the criticism would be wrong.

Greg Kuperberg 17:19, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

You can feel the layering—an initial page partially supplanted by additions with a very different slant. This creates strawman points. "He said he did not believe in personal gain but this is not true." Ideas like this can always be edited in with nuance and it isn't our place to sit in judgement on a subject's self-consistency. Even the most modest must pursue personal gain to some degree, after all. Did he leave his life savings, $33 000, to his scientific foundation? Even for 1940s standards, this is an unexceptional amount and doesn't speak to a person hungering after wealth.

And some of it I find plainly contradictory. He was the first black offered a faculty position at Iowa State, but all he was doing was hawking other people's recipies? That doesn't follow. He either did or did not discover two fungi, did or did not find a way to make ink and soap with peanuts, did or did not work with farmers on crop rotation and diversification. It can't all be fradulant or I'd think we'd have sources saying so. Web sources do, of course, meme-ishly reinforce each other, but if we're totally contradicting what's out there, we may be creating OR (I found "is an urban legend" an OR deduction). And do note, that collecting, refining, and publishing material is an accomplishment in itself, even if invention credit is not wholly accurate. Shakespeare rarely invented his own plotlines...

As for the two sections, the reputed inventions has a place but I find the "Troubles" partly tangential and ad hominem. Marskell 18:04, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you that the "Troubles" section is partly ad hominem and should be changed. I also agree with you that changes have been layered in and that the article should be more consistent. Even so, what Carver ever really invented is a central question. As far as I can tell, the answer is nothing. My impression is that Carver was straightforward about this at first, and didn't really claim that his "uses" were new inventions. But eventually he tried in earnest and didn't succeed.

The statement that Carver didn't believe in personal gain, or the more specific belief that he never tried to profit from his inventions, is relevant. It can be taken as an explanation of why there is no clear connection between Carver and the things that he supposedly invented. But the more correct statement is that he never succeeded in profiting from his inventions. And this was not because anyone stole his ideas. Greg Kuperberg 18:14, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

The introduction has been changed for the worse. It says that Carver's "exact output is difficult to ascertain". That is just not true. Carver has one of the best-documented lives of any American. The evidence is overwhelming that the nation misinterpreted his career. Carver knew all about the myth that was created around him, and eventually tried to live up to it, but he didn't succeed. Of course nothing in science or history is certain and there is no mathematical proof that there are no Carver inventions. Even so, if you look at the actual evidence that people used to conclude that he was an inventor, the right way to say it is that it is a myth, or an urban legend as the page said before.

It is also not true that he left almost no formulas or procedures. He left no formulas or procedures that would prove that he was a successful inventor. But at times, he did leave formulas that are evidence against it. You should read Carver's famous bulletin 105 Peanut Uses, if you plan to seriously edit this Wikipedia page. The title of this bulletin is clearly linked to the widely held belief that he invented hundreds of uses for the peanut. But does this document describe any kind of science or invention, or is it just kitchen recipes? Greg Kuperberg 15:34, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

"The evidence is overwhelming that the nation misinterpreted his career." We need to source that or it's an OR deduction, and any source will need to be balanced against those claiming otherwise. WP:V: Verifiability, not truth. On the related intro point, we have no business labelling it myth, urban legend or anything else unless we can source it. Here is a source for the contention, if you have access to a university library (I don't); but careful, this is a history journal and thus speaking outside its field on the science matters. This brings me back to the earlier point: on specific issues, it's an either/or. Either he did discover two fungi[2], for instance, or he did not. Dealing with specific assertions might be better then 0 or 300.

Re troubles: suggest shrinking and weaving into the text. For instance, the resignations threats can be compressed to one sentence ("five times between") and simply be inserted in the general bio.

I will try and read the bulletin. Marskell 16:05, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

If you want sources, then yes, Barry Mackintosh's historical article is one of them. It is true that JSTOR requires a subscription or access through a university. However, Mackintosh wrote a very similar article for American Heritage which is freely available here. If you want more sources, I read a biography by Gene Adair, unfortunately out of print. There is also a boigraphy by Linda McMurry, which is also out of print, but which is available used and which was also scanned by Amazon.

Does it matter that Mackintosh, Adair, and McMurry are historians rather than scientists? I'm convinced anyway. For one reason, they do mention Carver's interactions with scientists. But it also helps to allow a certain amount of common sense. What does common sense say about an invention like "peanut nitroglycerine", whose inventor says explicitly that he didn't write down the formula?

Mackintosh also make the fundamental point that there are serious black scientists and educators who are less famous than Carver. Mackintosh particularly admires Booker T. Washington, but he also mentions the scientists Ernest Everett Just and Charles Henry Turner. Now, there are also things to admire about Carver — he wasn't a bad person — but it looks like a mistake that he is more famous than these other men. (Or maybe about as famous as Washington.)

In a passage that was news to me, Mackintosh says that the National Park Service, which is responsible for the Carver National Monument, shelved their own internal biography of Carver because they were afraid of the possible reaction. (Mackintosh himself work for the Park Service for 17 years, but was not connected with this biography.) Finally Mackintosh lists black scholars who have written truthful assessments of Carver's career. But he concluded pessimistically, saying that the public is unlikely to listen to them.

It may well be true that Carver discovered two new varieties of fungi. However, this is not the same as inventing anything. Note also that the article that you cite reads a lot like a Wikipedia article, but it doesn't cite its sources. It also says at the end that Carver invented a way to make shampoo from peanuts. Again, apply some common sense. How realistic is it to make shampoo from peanuts, except by the stone soup method? Greg Kuperberg 17:59, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Either he did discover two fungi, for instance, or he did not. Dealing with specific assertions might be better then 0 or 300.

One more comment about this. Up to a point, I agree that it's right to emphasize the positive. Carver wasn't a bad person, and maybe he did discovered new varieties of fungi. However, the Wikipedia page is not complete unless it prominently explains that millions of American schoolchildren still learn that he invented hundreds of uses for the peanut, but that it isn't true. Greg Kuperberg 18:11, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

• On your very first clause, "If you want sources"... Well of course I do! Wikipedia requires them. Now, it's always annoying if you've read the sources and some other user comes along and says such-and-such without sources of their own, but it's no small thing to cast doubt on essentially everything a subject is credited with doing, which is what I was reacting to initially. The intro read like "psst! most of what follows is bullshit." Of course, this article does have some sources, so kudos on what you've added. My own web-link was not meant to be authoritative at all but just an example of a specific he might or might not have done. Is the source wrong in the meme sense? Is it lying? Is it accurate? Research papers, of course, are always better. Regarding which...
  • Does it matter if they're historians? Yes it does, if they're being used to verify the veracity of scientific claims/purported accomplishments. WP:RS: "Use sources who have postgraduate degrees or demonstrable published expertise in the field they are discussing." (emphasis original).
• "How realistic is it to make shampoo from peanuts, except by the stone soup method?" My opinion and common sense, and yours, is irrelevant because it's OR (broken record) without a source.
• On the last point I did not mean emphasize the positive, but emphasize the specific. If you can source that he did not discover two fungi, it will of course appear negative.

Again, I don't want to just say do this or that without having anything to offer myself (I'm also unrealistically coming across as the patron saint of reliable sources :), so I'll try to work on the prose stuff at least when I can and read what you've suggested. Marskell 21:44, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

What Carver invented

I am starting a new section heading because the last section is too long and ranges over a variety of points. Let's agree that Carver was not a bad person and that his Wikipedia biography should be duly positive. Let's also agree that some of his achievements are not in dispute among any sources. Regardless of whether or not his wisdom was original, he did nationally promote the planting and use of peanuts.

Let's agree that sources are important. I also agree that our own opinions don't matter. Common sense is a different story. You cannot know what has and has not been adequately sourced without common sense. I maintain that an invention like making shampoo out of peanuts is an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence. If you don't find strong evidence, you should suppose that it isn't true. It isn't the same kind of claim as that Erno Rubik invented the Rubik's cube. You cannot treat all assertions as equal; some are a priori more plausible than others.

The main point is that the idea of Carver as a wizard inventor is a popularized myth. This is principally a historical question, because Carver's popularization was a historical American event. Indeed, I found several sources that document the main point. The books at least cite scientists. Why aren't these sources good enough?

If you want to view it as purely a science question with no room for historians at all, his main publication were his agricultural bulletins, which lists uses of peanuts such as:

84. PEANUT BRITTLE NUMBER TWO: 2 cups granulated sugar, 1 cup freshly roasted peanuts. Shell and clean the peanuts; put in the stove to heat; put sugar in frying pan, and heat over a hot fire until it changes to caramel; put the peanuts in a well buttered tin; pour the sugar over them at once; when cold turn the pan up-side down, and tap bottom until the candy falls out; break into small pieces.

What kind of scientist do you require to explain the nature of this peanut brittle formula? Do I need to reference a Nobel laureate in chemistry, or can I appeal to common sense and conclude that it wasn't a new invention? Can't the Carver bulletin itself be used a source that indicates non-invention?

Okay, I concede that when I read your last statement, you might not entirely disagree with me. Maybe we can agree that you cannot replace all thought with citations; somewhere down the line you also have to analyze the source material. Greg Kuperberg 22:31, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm a little bit troubled because I thought my last post friendly and engaged with your concerns. Where did I say it is "purely a science question with no room for historians at all"? I did not say that, and I don't think so in the slightest (how could anyone thoughtfully think so with a historical bio?). His status in terms of race relations, history of science, bio as myth, scientist as popularizer, are all important and should rely on historians to a large extent. Specific statements of science possibility/impossibility ought to be sourced to science papers, ideally—that's all.

I take your point about common sense (with the caveat about science sources above). I maintain, commonsensically, that it seems impossible to me that a reconstruction era black could have achieved the status Carver did by merely hawking bullshit. Were his accomplishments exaggerated by guilty and/or progressive whites? Quite probably, and here's where an historian is ideal.

You're also sort of misrepresenting what I said on the "positive" angle. Again, that he did/did not do X, may or may not be positive. That's what I just suggested above (I think I did, *scratching head*). I'm personally unconcerned if we call someone a fraud, but am concerned about:

• Balancing sources against each other, and arriving at a non-primary representation, rather than a primary deduction.

That's it, in a nutshell. No deductions allowed. Marskell 23:09, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I didn't mean to mischaracterize you and I am happy to leave your position in your own words. It is easy to get caught up in cross-characterization; we may not disagree as much as it may seem in basic Wikipedia philosophy.

Concerning the specifics of the case at hand: First, I agree that sourcing some kind of food scientist would be ideal. I cannot produce any specific source of that type either pro or con at the moment, although I'm pretty sure that some of the historians do reference them. So that sourcing question simply needs more work; but it also begs the question of what to say if you haven't found this gold standard of citation. In my view, serious historical accounts such as Mackintosh are the best that we have. I think that it is the wrong time to dispute these presently best sources.

Concerning the basic claim, you say very reasonably:

I take your point about common sense (with the caveat about science sources above). I maintain, commonsensically, that it seems impossible to me that a reconstruction era black could have achieved the status Carver did by merely hawking bullshit. Were his accomplishments exaggerated by guilty and/or progressive whites? Quite probably, and here's where an historian is ideal.

I agree with you that the first version is an extroardinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence. But extraordinary evidence is there in the three sources that I cited. Your second, rhetorical question, is the explanation. His accomplishments were exaggerated to the point of outright falsehood, by all sides: by blacks, by guilty whites, by progressive whites, and even by segregationist whites. As Mackintosh explains, Carver's genial personality appeased every faction. (Everyone other than some of his close colleagues at Tuskegee, that is.) If you add to that a somewhat naive and ill-educated American public of the 1920s and 1930s, then I don't think that it's so impossible to believe.

Also, if you say "hawking bullshit", then you should remember that Carver wasn't devoid of talent. He was a pretty good painter and a very good public speaker, for example. He had enough to be a celebrity. He is not the only celebrity whose career has been grossly misinterpreted by the public and even by public grade schools. Greg Kuperberg 00:18, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I won't comment further before a sleep and reading the sources already cited. We're not disagreeing so much, and any full disagreement of mine is probably already stated above.

I will only (re-)mention three verbs (don't take is badly!) and vicariously violate my own rule of "opinions don't matter". Anyhow: invent, collate, distribute. There's a difference between the three, and an accomplishment in all of them. Marskell 00:55, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

The intro

While my concerns above are outstanding, I also don't want to leave the intro wrong if "difficult to ascertain" is an error. Could we, per above, say "widely credited with having developed more than 300 uses for the peanut, although much of his work was the collation and distribution of outstanding material" leaving aside both invent and myth for the timebeing. Marskell 12:46, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Re what is there now "Since Carver left no formulas for these products other than a single patented peanut cosmetic, later investigators were unable to evaluate or confirm his production of many of them" from the AmericanHeritage source. Marskell 12:48, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Just like you, I also changed my perspective when I slept on it. :-)

For now you can change the article as you please, but the changes that you suggest are only small improvements. I can see that you are taking this issue seriously; you certainly deserve credit for that.

I am increasingly convinced that the article needs a major overhaul. It needs a different tone; it needs meticulous citations; and it needs an instruction near the top that there is so much mythology about Carver that editors should first read what is already in the article before making possibly erroneous changes. Depressingly, it may need indefinite attention from Wikipedia admins to stay truthful, and it may take time to convince them too. The one bright spot is that it shouldn't have to cite 100 different sources. It should be enough to cite McMurry's biography plus some other small change.

One of the things that affected my perspective was a few articles written in the New York Times while Carver was still alive. (They require TimesSelect, but this is not expensive and it is a good product.) For example, here is an article from 1924 that has Carver wowing an audience of Alabama church women with an account of his plant products. He said that God revealed his discoveries to him. He said that he could make an egg yolk from a sweet potato. He said that he had a peanut product that could cure pulmonary diseases, which the Times reporter took as a reference to tuberculosis. He said that Thomas Edison had offered him a fortune to work in Edison's lab, but that he had turned down the offer. He said that a man had sent him a check for $100, but that he sent back the money.

Meanwhile McMurry's book says that Carver went to some lengths to start a for-profit company years before he made this speech. She leaves open the possibility that he would have donated its profits to Tuskegee, but at the very least he would have controlled its revenue. She also said that Carver repeated the story of the Edison job offer many times, but that it was never confirmed.

Then, here is an article from 1933 in which Carver claimed that peanut oil cured polio. According to McMurry, his polio claim was sensational and he was famous enough that he was inundated with pleas for polio patients. He pursued this claim for some time.

Then, here is an article from 1941 in which Carver claimed that he had found a persimmon extract that cured periodontal disease.

What am I supposed to think about an inventor who publishes simple kitchen recipes; claims hundreds of products without revealing formulas; claims sensational products such as "peanut nitroglycerine"; claims that his discoveries come directly from God; claims cures of major diseases; claims that he never pursues money, but has failed business ventures; and claims handsome but unsubstantiated job offers? Greg Kuperberg 16:13, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for not replying, been up to other stuff. You're right about a full-bodied overhaul being necessary. I was thinking of changing this or that but it will just create a domino affect where other things need doing. One thing you might try is hauling the article into user space and working on it there. Let me know if you do. Marskell 15:55, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, I have spoken my mind. I'm not sure when I will have time to do such an overhaul myself. Even if I don't, other Wikipedia regulars are free to read this and take action. Greg Kuperberg 03:40, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Ah, Wiki. So much to do. I did come across this in that accidental way, wanting to read on the man, and here we are with much debate after the fact. I don't suppose that if you (having read the sources) and me (having at least looked at them) are not willing to work, someone else in the medium term will settle down and do so. Anyhow, you defended your points well. It'll be on my watchlist. Marskell 00:03, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Mocked by surprised southern farmers

The section that reads "Southern farmers came together in 1920 to plead their cause before a Congressional committee hearings on the tariff. Carver was elected, without hesitation, to speak at the hearings. On arrival, Carver was mocked by surprised southern farmers, but he was not deterred and began to explain some of the many uses for the peanut." confuses me quite a bit. It seems to be saying that he was sent by southern farmers to congress to testify, and then was mocked by the same southern farmers who were surprised that he showed up. Who was surprised here? The farmers, members of congress, someone else? And why were they surprised? Because he was black, was unknown to them, other reasons? Pdarley

I think it should be that he was mocked by surprised Southern congressmen. Greg Kuperberg 03:41, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Missing and Inaccurate information

"his mother were kidnapped by Confederate night raiders and sold in Arkansas"

according to American Decades. Gale Research, 1998. that he was not sold the Gale Research lists the captors as bandits not Confederate night raiders

"his best filly "

according to the Gale Research the filly was worth 300 dollars

"Carver's father is unknown"

he was killed in a log rolling accident according to the Gale Research

This page has info on George Washington and.... George Washington Carver.

Wikipedia members should help delete all the information about george washington.

Carver's Sexuality

• • • In my coursework in LGBT Studies, Carver's name was often brought up as being gay, but for many reasons, this was left out of the history books . . . and when one considers the fact that other influential black male leaders such as Bayard Rustin's sexuality is . . . left out . . . it's not surprising that it's been edited out on Wikipedia, as well. This is from GLAAD's website (Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation):

George Washington Carver (Inventor) George Washington Carver is one of the most well known African American historical figures as well as one of the most important figures in American Agriculture. Most school children know him as the inventor of hundreds of uses for the peanut and the person who popularized peanuts as an agricultural crop. Although primarily famous as the driving force behind the peanut's growth in importance in agriculture, Carver is also notable for many other reasons. Carver was the first African American to attend Iowa State University as well as its first African American faculty member. His research included many other plants other than the peanut, and his work as an educator and innovator within the agricultural community led to the spread of "movable schools" or extension agencies to the South. Carver died in 1943, and has since been honored with commemorative postage stamps, a fifty-cent coin, and inclusion in the Hall of Fame for Great Americans and the National Inventors Hall of Fame. One fact about Carver's life which is rarely if ever mentioned is his sexuality, which may not be relevant to most of his achievements but is integral to the understanding the inventor as a whole. Sources: http://www.noglstp.org/historical.html http://blackstripe.com/blacklist/ http://www.george-washington-carver.com/george-washington-carver/ http://home.earthlink.net/~blkembrace/speech.htm

source: http://www.glaad.org/publications/resource_doc_detail.php?id=3093 ***