Talk:Flag of Syria

Lead

Current lead equals both the Assad government and SIC/SNG. Although I reverted recent changes in this regard (well, rather obvious pro-Assad propaganda), I do not feel the current wording adequately describes situation as of now. The regime controls most of Syrian territory and all major cities (except Idlib and Raqqa), the other government is hardly in control of any territory (in comparison to Kurds, or HTS, which proclaimed its own Syrian Salvation Government). Current consensus was really hard to achieve, so any change to it requires thorough discussion. Your opinion? Pavlor (talk) 06:21, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

"The other government ..." What other government? Bougatsa42 (talk) 06:42, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Protection

there are many pro-assad vandals who are attempting to vandalize the page,can the page be protected,only for confirmed editors.Alhanuty (talk) 19:01, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

AlAboud83, you'll need to make that request at [[WP:RFPP|requests for page protection. Gaelan 💬✏️ 19:07, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

Syrian Arab Republic flag should be main topic

I believe the flag of the Baathist Syrian Arab Republic should be used as the primary topic, instead of the Regime and Opposition flags being given equal weight. Both the articles on Syria and the Coat of Arms are about the Baathist Arab Republic rather than giving the Opposition governments equal weight. So the SAR infobox should be brought to the top of the page, and the lede should be changed to reflect this. Thespündragon 02:27, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

that would be bias firstly,secondly that would ignore facts on the ground,Assad Government doesn't control near 40% of the country,millions of people are out of his control,and there is a rival government in the north,led by the Syrian National Coalition,that nominally intends to replace him,also,the syrian coat of arms and the syria article,should have been disputed between the Assad Government and the Syrian National Coalition,don't know why that hasn't been done in 2012-2013,when the syrian opposition declared the rival government.the Kurds lead a rival government in the areas they control.also the Assad Government has no sovereignty,it is basically a puppet government.Alhanuty (talk) 13:59, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

I agree with Alhanuty. The article already gives precedent, in terms of order and weight, to the Baathist flag rather than equal weight, but it would be wrong at this stage to eliminate the opposition flag. BobFromBrockley (talk) 17:04, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

As I (cynically) wrote in one of the above threads, some problems may solve themselves... with enough time and firepower. To be more serious, some rewrite of the lead is indeed needed, as the other "government" is now a shadow body rather than real power in Syria. Something like: As a result of the ongoing Syrian civil war, there are two different flags used to represent the state. The incumbent government, led by Bashar al-Assad and the Ba'ath Party, is using the red-white-black United Arab Republic flag in use since 1980; while the Syrian opposition – seeking to overthrow the Assad government – readopted the green-white-black Independence flag in 2012. Your opinion? Pavlor (talk) 17:21, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

I think this would first need an update to Syrian Interim Government. As it stands now, Wikipedia still considers the opposition groups as a Government, following its recognition as such by a handful of countries. Until that changes, I see no point of modifying the lead section (even though your version probably better reflects the ground reality in Syria). — kashmīrī ^TALK 17:55, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

I don´t think this is necessary, the article about SIC has proper attribution of their claims (The interim government indirectly controls some areas of the country and claims to be the sole legitimate government on behalf of the Syrian Opposition in defiance of the Council of Ministers of Ba'athist Syria), so it is not even in Wikipedia voice. Pavlor (talk) 06:38, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

I have made a new lede focusing moreso on the flags rather than the governments that use them:

As a result of the ongoing Syrian Civil War, there are currently two flags used to represent Syria, used by different factions in the war.(ref)Mohammad Dibo Debate: The New Syria between Flags and Languages, SyriaUntold 14 June 2016(/ref) The incumbent government of the Syrian Arab Republic led by the Ba'ath Party uses the red-white-black tricolour defaced with two green stars originally used by the United Arab Republic, while Syrian opposition factions such as the Syrian National Coalition use the green-white-black tricolour known as the Independence flag that was first used by Mandatory Syria.

any thoughts? -Thespündragon 18:20, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

I have no objection. That might be a pragmatic solution. -Bobfrombrockley 14:21, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

I have implemented the new lede (with minor structure changes) -Thespündragon 14:17, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

for various reason,i prefer the old lead for now,but i will have no objection to change it in maybe in the incoming months,but currently there are two rival governments still and both are fighting.Alhanuty (talk) 15:40, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

Alhanuty, the new lede does recognize that there are different factions using different flags in the war. An article on the flags of Syria does not need to go into specifics on the legal status on these factions, especially in the lede. If a reader wishes to learn more on the governments in question, they can click on the wikilinks and read those articles. -Thespündragon 16:58, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

New lede is certainly an improvement. Neutral wording, no fringe POV-pushing (like the old one). So, Thespoondragon, you have my "vote". Pavlor (talk) 18:39, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

For clarity, heres the edited new lede proposition, as was implemented on 5 June:

As a result of the ongoing [[Syrian Civil War]], there are currently two flags used to represent [[Syria]], used by different factions in the war.<ref>Mohammad Dibo [http://syriauntold.com/2016/06/debate-the-new-syria-between-flags-and-languages/ Debate: The New Syria between Flags and Languages], SyriaUntold 14 June 2016</ref> The incumbent [[Politics_of_Syria#Government_administration|government of the Syrian Arab Republic]] led by the [[Ba'ath Party (Syrian-dominated faction)|Ba'ath Party]] uses the red-white-black tricolour originally used by the [[United Arab Republic]], while [[Syrian opposition]] factions such as the [[National Coalition for Syrian Revolutionary and Opposition Forces|Syrian National Coalition]] use the green-white-black tricolour known as the ''Independence flag'', first used by [[Mandatory Syrian Republic|Mandatory Syria]].

-Thespündragon 02:07, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

It should be the main topic. It's 2020, Assad won the war, the flag is everywhere save a few small pockets of terrorist strongholds.--PlanespotterA320 (talk) 14:17, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

Reverting back to your non-consensus revision before a new consensus is reached certainly is not a good way to start a new discussion about this topic. That being said, I´m "neutral" to the change proposed. Pavlor (talk) 14:25, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

"Non-consensus"? That "consensus" was from 2019. It should not require a big fuss on the talk page to make a blatantly correct update - consensus from other Wikipedia pages about the Syria issue has been reached that Assad pretty much won the war. There is no dispute as to what actually is the flag of Syria and what is merely the flag of a loosely organized opposition with little power and little diplomatic standing.--PlanespotterA320 (talk) 19:39, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

If your edit is reverted, you should discuss the proposed change on the article talk page, not push your favourite version by another revert. This page has a long history of edit-warring over this very topic, don´t be surprised, if another users reverts to the "consensus" revision. As I wrote, I´m neutral towards the proposed change, but I don´t like the way you did that edit. Pavlor (talk) 09:03, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

The rebel flag is not the flag of Syria

This is NOT the flag of Syria. It is a flag used by a variety of losely organized rebel groups with different agendas. It is not by any means the official flag of the country in any way. It is as much the official flag of Syria as the Estelada blava (in no official usage) is the flag of Catalonia.--PlanespotterA320 (talk) 18:47, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

The article is protected now, so we have enough time to discuss its structure (two governments vs one) and content. Opinion of all users is welcome (namely those who participated in similar discussions in the last 2 years: BrendonTheWizard, Bobfrombrockley, Thespoondragon, AlAboud83, Kashmiri, Attar-Aram syria, AnonMoos, Claíomh Solais, 3bdulelah, Ignostic199, Greyshark09, Dnmppolitico). Pavlor (talk) 07:03, 14 January 2020 (UTC) You missed other editors,NightsideAEB EllsworthSK

PlanespotterA320 -- Assad still doesn't have full control over all of Syria, so it depends more on international diplomatic recognition than on "who's winning the war"... AnonMoos (talk) 02:06, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

Thats not 100 % true. Some governments are rolling back, and recognizing Assad. Also political interests are not facts, Syrian Government is the de facto ruler of Syria. Syrian rebels( Opp. ) are an umbrella recognized by anti Assad Countries, those groups are loosely tight together with different agendas, SDF, Jihadist and Rebels. "Moderate rebels" dont control a single Governorate.Mr.User200 (talk) 18:34, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

It should be noted that of the remaining Rebel territory, which is maybe 10% of Syrian territory and only contains a single city, is territorially split in half between two opposition groups, with the one that actually controls the aforementioned city not even using the Independence flag but a different design with the Shahada replacing the flag further reducing the Rebel Flag's officual usage to roughly 5% of the territory of Syria. (Remember Rojava officially and explicitly recognizes the de jure Sovereignty of Assad's Government over their territory)

Secondly the Syrian opposition group with the recognition that lends the flag actual official status, during its entire existence, has been a Government-in-Exile based in Turkey with no actual presence in Syria, only various bands of militias pledging allegiance to it. Thegunkid (talk) 06:10, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

Seems like current consensus is in favor of changing the flag to the government flag in the top-of-the-page infobox. ANY last minute objections?--PlanespotterA320 (talk) 16:41, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

The end is probably near, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the article should be changed right this minute. As I've said before, it's more dependent on the diplomatic situation, rather than immediately following from the military details of the moment... AnonMoos (talk) 20:36, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

exactly,until the diplomatic situation changes,no change to the consensus.Alhanuty (talk) 00:56, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Agree with AnonMoos and Alhanuty. Premature. BobFromBrockley (talk) 13:25, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

---

SAA controls most of the country. The rebel flag is not de-facto federal gov. Unless there is a 2020 consensus for putting the rebel flag on equal footing, there is no reason to use an old version. Only ~20 countries have any kind of formal or informal relations with the so-called failed "transitional" government. SAA is recognized as legit gov by far more countries. All other language Wikipedia articles have the state flag at the top, demonstrating a huge consensus already. Would we put the confederate flag on equal footing with the US flag if Wikipedia existed in 1864? Goodness no. Just because a few governments continue to oppose the Syrian government doesn't mean it isn't the Syrian government - in other news, a few governments don't recognize a slew of governments - US, Armenia, Israel, etc, but we don't pull this nonsense in the articles for those flags. Frankly Syrian rebel flag should get a separate article altogether.--PlanespotterA320 (talk) 15:14, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

• @Kashmiri: Here on the talkpage, you could hardly call it a consensus for keeping the current version. Plus consider the fact that many other people who tried to change it didn't post on the talkpage - certainly a good form of soft consensus.--PlanespotterA320 (talk) 15:16, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

As I said just now on your user talk page, removing the rebel flag should not follow immediately and directly from military victories and defeats, but rather from changes in the diplomatic situation (as discussed previously on this page). AnonMoos (talk) 15:20, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

And as I've said before, the diplomatic situation clearly favors use of the SAA flag (since most countries recognize SAA) over the rebel flag. 100% recognition of a government has never been a condition for a flag being in the top of an article page about a country's flag.--PlanespotterA320 (talk) 15:23, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

I support the maintenence of the current consensus, as I don't see that there has been a dramatic change in the last few months. There are two strong arguments above. First, territorial control. To quote one analyst, "First, of Syria's pre-war population of 23 million, there are 6.6 million refugees outside the country (of whom 3.6 million are in neighbouring Turkey), over a quarter of the population, plus an equal number internally displaced (IDPs) within Syria. Then there are over 5 million people living in the northwest (Idlib and northern Aleppo regions) still outside of Assad's control, under what remains of various rebel groups, mostly under Turkish influence, and this includes over 1.7 million internally displaced from elsewhere in Syria. Then there are another 3 million people, including 700,000 internally displaced, in the northeast, under the control of the Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF)... Therefore, some 14.5 million people - 63 percent of Syria's pre-war population - are outside regime control." From the remaining 37%, we might also subtract the 100,000+ incarcerated opposition members and the 500,000+ war dead on all sides. If in 1864 the Confederacy had not surrendered and the Union only had sovereignty over a third of the population then yes we might have kept two flags on the page. The second argument relates to international recognition, and the previous position that a more than trivial number of states and intergovernmental bodies did not recognise the Damascus government. It was argued above that this is becoming less true, and I wonder if we can look at that carefully and identify how many still do not recognise it. BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:27, 13 November 2020 (UTC) (PS the article Foreign relations of Syria is a good starting place for looking at international recognition, although it also needs some updating. BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:34, 13 November 2020 (UTC))

Such numbers would require a really strong source... and the Confederacy example is inherently flawed (Confederacy never claimed to be an alternate US government). That being said I´m against any change without new consensus which should prevent tiresome edit-warring. I fear nobody here is interested in searching for POV of reliable sources. Is there even any mainstream media organization that talks/writes about opposition government as the government of Syria, or uses opposition flag as the flag of Syria? CNN, BBC or ARD certainly aren´t puppets of the Assad regime, yet their reporting uses "Syrian government" (or syrische Regierurng in case of ARD) to describe the Assad government. Even governments recognizing the opposition government evidently ignore it and its flag on their webpages (eg. US State departement: [1]; CIA World Fact Book: [2] etc.). Of course we can pretend there are two governments and two flags of equal importance, but such consensus is no longer supported by reliable sources. Pavlor (talk) 11:10, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Pavlor -- As was discussed at length on this page in 2018 (now in the archives), in the normal workings of diplomacy, countries don't ordinarily directly "recognize flags". Rather, they recognize governments, and the flag follows along from the corresponding government. AnonMoos (talk) 00:53, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

But this article is about the flag of Syria. And either way, a vast majority governments do not recognize the rebels or anyone using the rebel flag as the legit gov of Syria.--PlanespotterA320 (talk) 00:58, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

• This is not an article titled "Official flag of Syria" or "Flag of the recognised government of Syria". This article is about a topic called flag of Syria. If there is currently more than one flag used for Syria, all should be included in precisely this article. See Flag of Belarus, where the variant used by the political opposition is included in the infobox, or Flag of China where the article contains several flags, including ones used by non-recognised opposition groups. Also Flag of Gibraltar, Flag of Australia, etc. — kashmīrī ^TALK 02:40, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

• All of those examples support the opposite argument, though: the article should begin with an infobox of the flag of Syria. The Flag of Belarus article starts with the flag of Belarus, and proceeds to show the alternate flag, which was historically used and remains a widely recognizable symbol today due to its popularity among protesters. The Flag of China article only shows the Flag of China in the infobox, while the Flag of Taiwan article is a separate article, so I don't exactly know why you invoked it. The Flag of Gibraltar article also includes a Union Jack because it is official. The Flag of Australia article simply shows official variants used for military purposes, so I'm especially confused as to why you invoked that one. At this point, I honestly think it's just bizarre that we still present this article as if there is no "flag of Syria." We can still have a subsection about the opposition flag, but to have the article's lede have no infobox and to have both the flag of Syria and the flag of the Turkish-backed Free Syrian Army displayed as equal subparagraphs is very misleading. This is a WP:FALSEBALANCE. The above replies, which argue for the status quo because the Syrian Civil War is ongoing and the Syrian government still doesn't control all of its claimed territory, are also very strange to me. By that reasoning, should Syria redirect to an article about the civil war rather than the article about the nation-state because there is no one "Syria"? It's just so odd to me to see so many editors who I would assume are quite experienced on the encyclopedia making arguments that obviously wouldn't be permissible on just about any other article, and for good reason.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 21:17, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Flag of Syria (1963-1972)

Which one was the offical flag of Syria from 1963 to 1972, the 2:3 version or the 1:2 version? i'm not so sure. ColorfulSmoke (talk) 10:21, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

@Illegitimate Barrister: ColorfulSmoke (talk) 23:43, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

@ColorfulSmoke: The proportions were not defined, so many variants existed,(all of which were "official") among them versions in 2:3 and 1:2. A 1:2 version is used here as it is consistent with our image of the First Republic's flag and is how it was shown in many period flag books. -Thespündragon 08:04, 9 February 2021 (UTC)