Talk:Zakarid Armenia

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Arbitrarily0 ^(talk) 18:07, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

---

Zakarid Armenia → Zakarids – per WP:COMMONNAME & WP:USEENGLISH

• "Zakarid Armenia" -Llc 3
• "Zakarid dynasty" -Llc 2
• Armenian + Zakarids -Llc 25

-- Takabeg (talk) 08:11, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The article is full of biased information and discriminates everything Georgian

EtienneDolet

First of all i don't understand why template history of Georgia shouldn't be here.. Zakarid Armenia was part of Georgian Kingdom and all it's history is directly related to the history of Georgia.. then as i see the biggest object of debate between us is the nationality of Zakarids. there are 4 or 5 links in references about that but in fact only one of them says the zakarids were armenians with kurdish origins, it's from geni.com. i can't see any sources under the text which proves that. There is a historical work of Georgian Historian Levan Sanikidze called "The Swords Without The Scabbards" in which the author says that the Mkhargrzeli family was in the beggining Gregorian, then diophisite christian.. their mother tongue was Georgian and their mentality was Georgian too. you can see that chapter from his book on this link https://burusi.wordpress.com/2009/08/08/%E1%83%9A%E1%83%94%E1%83%95%E1%83%90%E1%83%9C-%E1%83%A1%E1%83%90%E1%83%9C%E1%83%98%E1%83%99%E1%83%98%E1%83%AB%E1%83%94-%E1%83%AC%E1%83%98%E1%83%92%E1%83%9C%E1%83%98-%E1%83%97%E1%83%90%E1%83%9B/ .. it can be written in the references under article too.. also i have his first edition book in which all this info is written on the page 530. that's all what i wanted to say, SORRY FOR MY POOR ENGLISH IrakliGuna (talk) 17:54, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Zakarid Armenia isn't on the History of Georgia template, unlike the History of Armenia template. The state was never called "Georgia" either. Sanikidze seems to be a playwright, not a credible historian. Geni.com isn't a reliable source because anyone can edit it. All noble families typically have foreign ancestry. The Bagratonis are an Armenian family by origin but that isn't mentioned in every sentence about them. Étienne Dolet (talk) 06:08, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Someone has messed up the page links - when I go to Zakarid Armenia and then move to its talk page I get to here, but when I click back to the article I instead get to Zakarids-Mkhargrzeli which has its own talk page. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 16:54, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

Just aligned the talk-page with the article. Cheers, Arbitrarily0 ^(talk) 19:56, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 14 July 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to do anything in particular at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 03:50, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

---

Armenia within the Kingdom of Georgia → Zakarid Armenia – This article was named Zakarid Armenia until it was recently changed without discussion. Considering Zakarid Armenia was only in union with the Kingdom of Georgia for 25 years but Mongol vassals for over a century, the new title is very inaccurate. I added a academic source by Chahin confirming that Zakarid Armenia is the correct name. In addition, Zakarid Armenia is by far a much more WP:COMMONNAME

• "Zakarid Armenia" - 2,450 results
• "Armenia within the Kingdom of Georgia" - 41 results

Étienne Dolet (talk) 16:25, 14 July 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. Anarchyte (work | talk) 11:18, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

"Zakarid Armenia" is generalized and modern term of different feudal entinities ruled by Mkhargrdzeli dynasty. It implies as if Zakarid Armenia existed as a separate entinty. In reallity during Tamar's reign different members of Mkhargrdzeli dynasty separately gained land holdings and directly payed homage to Georgian monarch.Georgiano (talk) 17:02, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

Information of Armenian feudals under Mongol rule can be moved to Mongol Armenia— Preceding unsigned comment added by Georgiano (talk • contribs)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Not attested

The object historically have not existed at all, attested nowhere before 20th c. Both term and the object are established in modern times. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Abkhazian1 (talk • contribs) 12:44, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

Entirety of this article is biased and based on the modern studies which in no way are reliable. I also think this article should be deleted because "Zakarid Armenia" is not a real term, it is a term made up by modern scholars but the historical scholars never mention it as "Zakarid Armenia" I will get on saying the other errors of article right now. 1)According to author, Zakarid Armenia[2] (Armenian: Զաքարյան Հայաստան Zakaryan Hayastan), was an Armenian principality between 1201 and 1360, ruled by the Zakarid-Mkhargrzeli dynasty. The city of Ani was the capital of the princedom. The Zakarids were vassals to the Bagrationi dynasty in Georgia, but frequently acted independently and at times titled themselves as kings I see several errors here which I tried to fix but the main editor of page keeps deleting it and warning me, so: 2)- There is no source cited regarding the actual "capital" of so called "Zakarid Armenia" becuase there would be no such thing most likely. 3)- the following claim "but frequently acted independently and at times titled themselves as kings" is backed up only by a single source which says: The degree of Armenian dependence on Georgia during this period is still the subject of considerable controversy. The numerous Zak'arid inscriptions leave no doubt that they considered themselves Armenians, and they often acted independently. meaning, the only source that backs up claims of the person who claimed that Zakarids were "ruling independently" still considers the following subject a CONSIDERABLE CONTROVERSY not a confirmed thing. also, to get the better view about the history we need to show NOT part of it but ALL of it. This is EXACTLY what I tried to do when I added information about how Mongols conquered all of South Caucasus and called it "vilayet of Gurjistan" same as "vilayet of Georgia" due to the reason that conquered Armenian lands were conquered off GEORGIA. On which I cited a source on but on basis of nothing the author DELETED it. 4)Now, let's talk about the claim where it says that "Armenian generals Zakare and Ivane." which is backed up by 2 source of which one is not even possible to find, but the easily accessible one, which you can actually get a view on with clicking it says no such things about those people being Armenians, though quite the opposite, it does that these people were Kurdish in Origin who actually adopted Christianity and got Georgianized. this very source was cited by the person who changed the wikipedia into them being Armenian when they obviously were just Georgians of Kurdish origin.}SonofJacob (talk) 10:49, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

You might want to double-check the sources. One of the two sources says that they’re “[…] Armenianized Kurdish family of Zakharids, […]” (The Making of the Georgian Nation, Suny, 1994, pp.39 [1]). In other words, by the time relevant to this article (or by the time those two individuals earned their positions), they already considered themselves to be Armenian. What I don’t see in any of the sources is your claim that they were “Georgianized.” Many dynasties originate in foreign lands or are of foreign ethnicities (the Bagrationis themselves are an example of this). The distant origin or background of the dynasty is irrelevant in this case. — [ kentronhayastan ] 00:03, 17 September 2021 (UTC)