Talk:Electoral Palatinate

Pfalz

Shouldn't the information here on the Palatinate state be found at Rhenish Palatinate instead of this article? It seems to me that the "Palatinate" article should just define the term and list the locations of different palatinates. Olessi 21:13, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

I think you're right. There are many things (regions, historic regions, buildings, people) with "Pfalz" or "Palatinate" in their name, and this article should give directions to the various specific articles, like de:Pfalz. And probably a short description of where the term "pfalz/palatinate" comes from. Some of the articles this page should link to:

• Rhenish Palatinate, the present Pfalz region in Rhineland-Palatinate, de:Pfalz (Region). Since the area isn't called "Rheinpfalz" in Germany anymore, this page should be moved to Palatinate (region).
• Rhineland-Palatinate, the present German state, de:Rheinland-Pfalz
• Upper Palatinate, the present region in Bavaria, de:Oberpfalz
• Electoral Palatinate, the historic German duchy, de:Kurpfalz. This could also contain the history of the County Palatine of Lotharingia and the County Palatine of the Rhine. Since most of the links to Palatinate are related to the "Kurpfalz", maybe the article about the Kurpfalz should be at Palatinate, with links to the other uses at Palatinate (disambiguation).
• The former duchies Palatinate-Zweibrücken (de:Pfalz-Zweibrücken), Palatinate-Neuburg (de:Herzogtum Pfalz-Neuburg), Palatinate-Sulzbach (de:Pfalz-Sulzbach) etc.
• The present German districts Saarpfalz, Südwestpfalz, Rhein-Pfalz-Kreis
• The Pfalzgrafenstein castle in Kaub.
• County palatine, England.
• Several older Palatinates in Bavaria, Burgundy, Saxony and Swabia, see de:Pfalzgraf.

Markussep 18:55, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree. Let's move the content that relates specifically to the Rhenish Palatinate to that article. --Chl 17:39, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was PAGE MOVED per discussion below. It's possible that this article isn't at the ideal title, but it was at least clear that Palatinate should be a disambiguation page, and Electoral Palatinate seems like a reasonable enough location for this article, at least for now. This move shouldn't be taken as any prejudice against choosing a better title for this article, if that turns out to make the most sense. -GTBacchus^(talk) 06:52, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

---

Palatinate → Electoral Palatinate and Palatinate (disambiguation) → Palatinate. Palatinate is sufficiently ambiguous with no one meaning predominant, all deriving from a root meaining of "a territory administered by a count palatine". Besides Electoral Palatinate, the other major use is for the contemporary region of Palatinate, as well as English palatinates. As an aside, this reflects what is used by German and some other interwikis (de:Pfalz, de:Kurpfalz; fr:Palatinat; fr:Palatinat du Rhin; nl:Palts, nl:Rijnpalts). –  AjaxSmack  01:40, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Survey

Add "# Support" or "# Oppose" on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~. Please remember that this survey is not a vote, and please provide an explanation for your recommendation.

Survey - in support of the move

1. Support as per AjaxSmack and Markussep's earlier comments. Olessi 17:52, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
2. Support, sufficiently complicated to let the disambiguation page have the main location. Kusma (討論) 17:59, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
3. Support as nominator. —  AjaxSmack  19:13, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
4. Support although this article doesn't really just talk about the palatine when ruled by an elector, but after the fall of the Holy Roman Empire as well. --Jadger 19:20, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
5. Support. Markussep 21:31, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
6. Support. imars 07:06, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Survey - in opposition to the move

1. Oppose as below. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:16, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional comments

Please also see related but separate move request at Talk:Palatinate of the Rhine#Requested move.

Why is Rhineland-Palatinate (Rheinland-Pfalz) nowhere to be found on Palatinate (disambiguation)? It seems like somebody must foolishly think that the only thing that can fit on the disambiguation page is the ones that fit under the scope of the current Palatinate article. Gene Nygaard 04:16, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Done. —  AjaxSmack  01:48, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I would really much prefer Elector Palatine, or, as in Markussep's discussion above, Rhenish Palatinate. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:57, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean here. Which article would you prefer to be called "Elector Palatine"? Note that the former (before 1803) state Electoral Palatinate (Kurpfalz) is not the same as the formerly (ca. 1815-1945) Bavarian (Rhein)pfalz region, which is currently part of Rhineland-Palatinate. Markussep 15:46, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

This article, now called Palatinate, should be called by the more common term Elector Palatine, which now redirects here. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:27, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

And just how does one determine how common the term is? Elector Palatine I would expect to be a person not a region. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Imars (talk • contribs) 17:39, 1 February 2007 (UTC).

The Elector Palatine was the ruler of the Electoral Palatinate. The article is about the former state, and includes lists of Electors Palatine. I would prefer Electoral Palatinate. Markussep 17:49, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

(To Imars) By Sprachgefühl; I am surprised that the simplest and crudest of comparisons gives as low a ratio as 2.4:1. To change would require minor rewriting to make this an article about an office, like Lord High Steward; but it would contain the same data. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:21, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I think the situation here is different from British nobility. Does a Lord High Steward have a specific territory? See for instance other states of the Holy Roman Empire like the Archbishopric of Mainz, the Electorate of Saxony or Mecklenburg-Strelitz. Markussep 18:53, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I think that the article should remain about the state, rather than the ruler of that state. I remain agnostic between Rhenish Palatinate and Electoral Palatinate, which would both seem acceptable, although the former, iirc, tends to refer more to the Bavarian Palatinate after 1815, doesn't it? john k 19:01, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Comparing Elector Palatine and Electoral Palatinate is like comparing apples and oranges, or a closer comparrison, might be duke of Bavaria and Duchy of Bavaria. Search for Elector Palatine on Google and the top hits are Frederick V, Elector Palatine and Karl III Philip, Elector Palatine. Let's keep it about the region and not the office. I am willing to defer to the majority for Electoral Palatine vs Rhenish Palatine. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Imars (talk • contribs) 20:33, 1 February 2007 (UTC).

Sigh! I keep forgetting to sign. imars 20:34, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I hope we can agree that we don't need separate articles on both the Duke of Bavaria and the Duchy of Bavaria; at that point, which we have is a matter of convenience. I seem to be out!voted on which is more convenient here, which is fine; but that's my case. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:13, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree that Palatinate should be a disambiguation page. But I'm not clear about the scope of the new Electoral Palatinate article -- will it still cover the periods before the state became an electorate? I wouldn't want it if we needed an additional County Palatine of the Rhine article or so -- that would get too complicated. Chl 21:10, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

First, sorry for my humble English.
Second, the article should not be moved in the dicussed way due to quite a number of reasons.
Third, the article should be devided in two different articles: a) Count Palatines (Germany), b) Electoral Palatine (= Rhenish Palatine) just to start with ;-).
Why?
A Count Palatine was a royal/emperial office which developed since the time of Charle Magne and which came to full powers under the Ottonen Kings/Emperors. The Count Palatine was a direct represantative of the royal/emperial power beside the Dukes representing the people/tribe of a designated area and lateron the territory itself. So, besides the Dukes of Saxony, Frankonia, Thuringia, Lower and Upper Lorraine, Swabia and Bavaria etc. there were Count Palatines for just the same areas (in case of Upper & Lower Lorraine only one Count Palatine who was called Count Palatine of the Rhine (Pfalzgraf bei Rhein) after the line of Ezzo Count Palatine of Lorraine died out (1085).
By the "Goldene Bulle" (1356) when the office of the Pfalzgraf bei Rhein was held by the Bavarian House of Wittelsbach they became one of the 7 Electorals (Kurfürsten) of the German Kings known as Electoral Palatine of the Rhine (note: and only later than that time the CoA was as shown in the article; in former times the CoA of the Pfalzgraf bei Rhein was "Sable with a lion rampant Or" - see Bild:Balduineum Wahl Heinrich VII.jpg on [[1]]. The name "Kurpfalz" for the Electoral Palatine of the Rhine is quite a modern one which developed after the influence of the House of Wittelsbach was strengthened within that area.
Maps: a) For the time until 1356 you don't need a special map representing the "Counties Palatine", you may use one showing the old dukedoms; there is a suitable map esp. for the 10th/11th century within the wikipedia Netherland Historical Atlas project; for more modern times "in part 2" you would need a map showing the "Kurpfalz" (with a big part now in the Federal State of Rhine-Palatine (sic!) and other parts now in Baden-Württemberg and the Hesse) simply due to the fact that the Kurpfalz was not more than a small rudimetary relic of the once mighty Palatines of the Lorraines/Palatine of the Rhine.
ps: please don't call it "County Palatine of the Rhine". It is an absolute correct translation, but I'm afraid it will leave any English reader in an absolute mass getting mixed up with the meaning of a British county. The office bearer is a Count Palatine but speaking in territorial terms I would call the areas "Palatinates of ..."
Hope this helps a bit ... ;-) Wolfgang (no account here so far) aka Islandhopper (wikicommons) aka 91.64.0.69 01:12, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Map

I think a map is needed, as Rheinland-Pfalz is the union of two historically different lands. I like the maps the on de:Pfalz (Region), I do not know how to import them to the English wiki or translate them properly though.

--Jadger 19:24, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

But here we are not talking about Rheinland-Pfalz. Here we are talking about the Kurpfalz. Rheinland-Pfalz does not include the territories East of the Rhine. imars 07:09, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

And also includes territories on both sides of the Rhine that were not part of the Palatinate, notably the left bank territories of the former Archbishoprics of Trier and Mainz. john k 19:02, 1 February 2007 (UTC)