Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2022 January 11

11 January 2022

List of Simple series video games

List of Simple series video games (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

I believe this list is relevant and a good extension of the main article, Simple (video game series). It has a reasonable scope (games released under one budget line by one company). A main argument is that most of the individual items aren't notable, but per WP:NOTESAL and many other video game list articles, this is evidently not a problem in most cases. I would be willing to work on the article and make sure it's properly formatted and referenced (one of the points in brought up in the AfD I agree with) if recreation is allowed. I would also be fine with it being restored to draftspace until proper references are added.

The votes in the deletion discussion were 3 for deletion to 1 for keeping, with one editor commenting but not voting. RoseCherry64 (talk) 19:20, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Gour Govinda Swami

Gour Govinda Swami (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

Multiple mentions in independent reliable sources (see [1], [2], [3], [4], [5]). More than satisfies WP:GNG. Dāsānudāsa (talk) 12:15, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

• @Dāsānudāsa: Did you ask the closer to reconsider, first? I couldn't see so on their talk page, but wasn't sure if you did so elsewhere Nosebagbear (talk) 12:27, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Ah, I didn't realise I was supposed to! This is my first deletion review request. I notified them of this discussion, but didn't ask for a review from them first, no. Dāsānudāsa (talk) 12:35, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Pete Vainowski

Pete Vainowski (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

Pete Vainowski was a star American football lineman from the 1920s to the early 1930s. He played at least nine seasons professionally, including one game in the National Football League (NFL) during 1926, thus satisfying NGRIDIRON, which states a player is presumed notable if they have played in the NFL.

Despite this, Vainowski was deleted in an AFD in which there were 8 keeps compared to just three deletes, marking the only time in Wikipedia's 20+ year history that a player in one of the "Big Four Leagues" (NFL, MLB, NBA, NHL) was denied of an article when his professional career was known (excluding cases in MLB when the player had an unknown given name).

Vainowski was not a "sub-stub" existing for years without expansion. The article was in excellent shape at the time of deletion, and included over 15 references and was 7,000+ bytes. Keep !voter Cbl62 said in the discussion, "Passes WP:NGRIDIRON. This is not a sub-stub that has existed for five or ten years without any development. The article has existed for barely a year and should be given time to develop further -- the article has grown eight fold (from 200 characters of narrative text to more than 1,650) in the day since the nomination."

Unlike soccer/association football, in which players with one appearance in 50+ different leagues are routinely deleted after not even coming close to GNG, American football is different; NGRIDIRON is very tightly focused. As Cbl62 worded it: "The only players from the years prior to World War II who qualify for a presumption of notability are those from the NFL from 1921 to 1939. This in stark contrast to rugby and soccer, where we have SNGs that purport to establish notability for tens of thousands (maybe hundreds of thousands?) of players who appeared in as little as one game in dozens of leagues at varying levels (top of the pyramid and on down to the middle of the pyramid) and for more than two centuries of competition. The rugby and soccer SNGs have resulted in a plethora of sub-stubs and have drawn the ire of many editors. While some sports have failed to properly tailor their SNGs, American football is not one of those sports. NGRIDIRON was tightly focused already, and in the past year we have narrowed it even further by eliminating the Arena Football League and squashing efforts to add the World Football League." In fact, the only leagues that pass NGRIDIRON are the Canadian Football League, National Football League, American Football League and All-America Football Conference (both of which merged into the NFL), and the United States Football League.

This is an encyclopedia, so why would we exclude an article on someone who meets the criteria of inclusion and has a high-quality page? This is a National Football League player article with over 15 references and a 7,000+ byte page. In addition to having played one game in a NGRIDIRON-satisfying league, Vainowski also played college football at Loyola and at least nine seasons professionally.

Furthermore, although source-wise there was not much significant coverage, there is a very reasonable presumption that significant coverage exists. As for coverage of that period and prior, it can be very difficult to find, as not all of it is online. Another issue with older coverage that I previously brought up in the discussion is that Newspapers.com has difficulty identifying results from that time, so even if it did contain the newspapers that significantly covered Vainowski, results may not show up through a simple search.

Additionally, although I know that the number of !votes does not matter, to see a "rough consensus" of "delete" in that discussion, you would have to literally get rid of every single "keep" !vote, which is not an accurate closure when they have policy-based arguments. All of the keep !votes cited NGRIDIRON, which states a topic is “presumed notable” if they have played in the NFL, CFL, USFL, AAFC, or AFL. Therefore, since he is "presumed notable," I do not see a reason to get rid of the article.

Several different editors have agreed that it was a bad closure (including two admins), which in addition to my reasons stated above, convince me that the Pete Vainowski AFD should be overturned from "delete" to "keep."

Pinging discussion !voters: @Cbl62: @Editorofthewiki: @Rlendog: @Nosebagbear: @Metropolitan90: @Curbon7: @JonnyDKeen: @Lepricavark: @JoelleJay: @Onel5969: BeanieFan11 (talk) 03:02, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

• Overturn and keep. To the extent that there was a consensus in the AfD discussion, it was in favor of keeping rather than deleting (and, by implication, relying upon WP:NGRIDIRON rather than failing to accept its presumption of notability). --Metropolitan90 (talk) 03:46, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
• Overturn to keep. WP:NSPORT is pretty clear that it is an or with the GNG, which is what the WP:N itself says. Even if Sandstein disagrees with this, the controlling policy is WP:NHC "If the discussion shows that some people think one policy is controlling, and some another, the closer is expected to close by judging which view has the predominant number of responsible Wikipedians supporting it, not personally select which is the better policy." Jclemens (talk) 04:27, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
  • I don't think that this is a case where two guidelines conflict and the question arises which one should apply. As explained below, the guidelines NGRIDIRON and GNG are compatible in my view, because NGRIDIRON establishes a presumption of notability that is nonetheless rebuttable (and was rebutted here) at AfD. Sandstein 07:23, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
  • NSPORT must not be at all clear, as what it says is expressly different from the above. "In addition, the subjects of standalone articles should meet the General Notability Guideline." (Emph added.) If the intent were "pass either NSPORT (or NGRIDIRON here in particular) or GNG", it should have said exactly the opposite. 109.255.211.6 (talk) 13:03, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

  NSPORT doesn't actually contradict itself/GNG. From its FAQs at the top of the page:

  Q5: The second sentence in the guideline says "The article must provide reliable sources showing that the subject meets the general notability guideline or the sport specific criteria set forth below." Does this mean that the general notability guideline doesn't have to be met?
  A5: No; as per Q1 and Q2, eventually sources must be provided showing that the general notability guideline is met. This sentence is just emphasizing that the article must always cite reliable sources to support a claim of meeting Wikipedia's notability standards, whether it is the criteria set by the sports-specific notability guidelines, or the general notability guideline.

  Here is my further explanation of that aspect of NSPORT in the AfD:

  Per NSPORT: The topic-specific notability guidelines described on this page do not replace the general notability guideline. They are intended only to stop an article from being quickly deleted when there is very strong reason to believe that significant, independent, non-routine, non-promotional secondary coverage from multiple reliable sources is available, given sufficient time to locate it. In other words, the purpose of the SNG is so mass article creators can pad their stats quicker an article may be in mainspace sourced only to refs that verify the subject meets the SNG, such as databases, without the threat of immediate A7 deletion or AfD challenge. Other biographies with such sourcing should very quickly attract scrutiny from NPP/AfC reviewers/general patrolling editors, but if the SportsRef Stamp of Approval is there editors are much less likely to put in the effort to investigate whether the subject actually meets GNG. It also gives editors a bit more leeway with how long they can take to find offline/untranslated/etc. SIGCOV. But once notability is challenged, those who want to retain the article are expected to produce GNG sourcing or provide a very credible claim that SIGCOV exists (like pointing to a specific book that isn't accessible online but would be expected to contain adequate coverage). It seems editors trust GRIDIRON's predictive accuracy enough that NFL players are extremely rare AfD targets, but that doesn't mean they all actually meet GNG.

  This is why the "or" exists in the second sentence. JoelleJay (talk) 17:35, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

  • Having reviewed the article itself and the excuses why a clear numerical consensus should be overturned as supposedly 'not policy compliant,' I remain unconvinced. Sandstein, I assess your close as failing to comply with half of WP:DGfA:
    • "2. Use common sense and respect the judgment and feelings of Wikipedia participants."
    • "4. When in doubt, don't delete."

  I don't see any logical way you didn't violate at least one: if you didn't have any doubts about the deletion, then you have disregarded the judgments of the (numerically superior) keep !voters. This is becoming a pattern of behavior inconsistent with deletion policy. While I appreciate your willingness to discuss your reasoning, your repeated failure to accept that consensus can differ and modify your pattern of closing deletion debates in accord with the community's wishes is concerning. Please do better in the future. Jclemens (talk) 19:55, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

• As closer, I remain of the view that the closure was correct. The above comments and the "keep" opinions at AfD would interpret the provision of NGRIDIRON that a player at a certain level is "presumed notable" to read as "is notable". But that is not what the guideline says. If the community had been of the view that any player at a certain level should be included irrespective of whether sources exist, the community would have written the guideline to read "is notable". But instead, they chose to establish only a presumption of notability, which implies that this presumption is rebuttable. And this means, in my view, that a valid argument at AfD must address whether or not that presumption has been rebutted in any individual case in which notability is challenged. That means that a valid "keep" opinion in this AfD would have had to cite sources that establish this player's notability in order to show that the guideline's presumption does hold in this case, rather than merely repeating the presumption. But most "keep" opinions in this AfDs failed to do so. As AfD closer, I am required to give less weight to opinions that do not provide valid arguments in the light of our guidelines and policies, which is what I did here by giving less weight to the (in my view) poorly argued "keep" opinions. Sandstein 07:20, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
• Watching but I have no opinion for now. Curbon7 (talk) 08:27, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
• Comment (As I !voted, and I try to discourage participant DRV !votes). This is a clearcut example of votes being disregarded because they weren't being backed up by policy. None advocated an IAR position, just that Gridiron was sufficient. NHC is only the case where the pags do not themselves designate a precedence line. Everything else is said better by Sandstein directly above. Nosebagbear (talk) 09:18, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
• More than 40% of Wikipedia's biographies concern sportspeople, and the reason why our encyclopaedia is awash with sports-related bios is because the sports notability SNGs are crazy inclusive. NGRIDIRON certainly is. But we have other rules that put a duty on sysops to delete biographical articles that aren't impeccably sourced, and rightly so. For these reasons I concur with the decision to delete. We do not have high quality independent sources of biographical information on this person so we can't permit a biography to exist.—S Marshall T/C 09:58, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
• Good close - while I stated my opinion on why it should be kept, which was based solely on WP:NGRIDIRON, GNG does trump SNGs. I understand Sandstein's reasoning, especially in light of S Marshall's comments above. In past years, simply establishing that something met a particular SNG was good enough, but that's been changing over the past 3 years or so. We've seen it in regards to GEOLAND, NCRIC, NBROADCAST, SCHOOLOUTCOMES and others. One SNG, NSOLDIER, was even deprecated. However, there are other SNGs which continue to trump GNG at AfD discussions, such as NSCHOLAR and NAUTHOR. And it all depends on which Admin does the close, everybody's human, and different folks will reach different conclusions based on the same evidence. But those are broader discussions. Sandstein's close, while I disagree with it, was clearly sound. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 12:00, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
• Overturn like it or not, the longstanding precedent in this topic area is to retain articles that pass the SNG. The consensus at this AfD was consistent with that precedent. I understand that some editors are not happy with the prevalence of sports articles on the 'pedia, but a !supervote is not an appropriate way to spark change. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 13:14, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
• Overturn to no consensus. If the logic in the close is right, then arguments based on WP:NSPORTS (or, for that matter, most other SNGs) are essentially worthless the minute someone brings up the GNG, and the close doesn't make sense otherwise. This isn't the case and isn't in keeping with the community's view of SNGs. The close is also founded on the view that since nobody has found coverage passing the GNG then we have to assume the subject doesn't pass the GNG, which is incorrect. WP:NSPORTS is intended to indicate when GNG-passing coverage is likely to exist, and arguments based on sources being likely to exist are legitimate. WP:N says If it is likely that significant coverage in independent sources can be found for a topic, deletion due to lack of notability is inappropriate. The discussion could certainly have decided that sources aren't likely to exist and that the article should be deleted, but I don't think there was a clear consensus on that point, and that's a decision for the participants rather than the closer. Hut 8.5 13:20, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
  • I would differ from this. Our verifiability policy says, at WP:BURDEN, that information that's been challenged must be supported by an inline citation to a reliable source. Raising an AFD is a challenge; so per policy, only an inline citation to a reliable source will suffice. My position is that this "presumption" that sources exist cannot withstand such a clear passage in core policy.—S Marshall T/C 13:55, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
    • I don't believe there's any verifiability issue here - there doesn't seem to be any claim that the information in the article isn't verifiable to reliable published sources, and it had plenty of inline citations (mostly to contemporary newspapers). The argument for deletion was that there aren't any sources which devote significant coverage to the subject. That's not found in WP:V, it comes from WP:GNG, which isn't core policy. Hut 8.5 17:41, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

  Cbl62 and to an extent Rlendog and Onel are essentially the only keep participants who explicitly argue SIGCOV sources are still likely to exist (rather than just asserting "meets NGRIDIRON" or "we've never deleted an NFL player before"). So if we only consider !votes that address this point, the consensus is actually numerically on the side of delete (where such (lack of) coverage is noted).

  I think it's also relevant to point out Geschichte's comment could be interpreted as an argument in favor of deletion, which brings the tally to 8k 5d. JoelleJay (talk) 18:00, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

  The point of NSPORTS (including NGRIDIRON) is to indicate when sources are likely to exist, I don't think it's a problem that not all comments spelled this out. Several of the Delete comments didn't explicitly mention SIGCOV either and just referenced the GNG, I don't think that's a problem either. Hut 8.5 19:33, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

• Overturn, I appreciate the point that the closing admin made and I do think that there needs to be a bigger discussion on WP:GRIDIRON, but Hut 8.5 and others make compelling points that deletion was not applied appropriately in this case. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 14:53, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
  • Hi Gonzo, out of interest, how would you see this as distinct from "deletion was applied correctly, but a discussion should be had as to whether gridiron should be exempt from the NSPORTS norm?" What's the deciding factor (in terms of assessing policy-backed consensus/DRV review)? Nosebagbear (talk) 15:05, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
    • Nosebagbear, I think that we are constrained by our current policy and guidelines. So was this deletion applied correctly based on our current policies/guidelines? I don't think so. Should someone have a presumption of notability just because they played in the NFL, especially when they played during the early years of the NFL when it wasn't the same international league it is today. I don't know; I think that discussion should occur. Hope that makes sense. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 16:00, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
      • Hut 8.5 appears to be be arguing that all of NSPORTS is "essentially worthless" -- as it's actually written, I've seen no argument made that the close interpreted it other than that. Just the "precedent" differs (see also: WP:OTHERSTUFF) and that NGRIDIRON is a special case, on the basis that it "only" has 32 teams with 53-person rosters in a single country. (In practice extending even beyond that, as players that have only ever been on an NFL practice are regularly declared to be obviously notable start-class articles.) That's sharply at variance from being "constrained by our current policy and guidelines", as far as I can tell. What's more, it rests on at least two different interpretations of what those guidelines should be, or should be read as being. 109.255.211.6 (talk) 17:19, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
        • I'm not arguing that NSPORTS is essentially worthless, that's my paraphrase of what the close was saying ("If the logic in the close is right..."). I don't agree with it. Hut 8.5 17:41, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
• Overturn - the consensus of the discussion was to keep based on NGRIDIRON's presumption of notability. The closer says that that presumption of notability was "rebutted." It was not. Perhaps in the case of a modern day player if no additional sources were found online one could say that the presumption of notability was rebutted. But for a century old topic, saying that no additional sources were quickly located on the internet is hardly a rebuttal to the presumption that sources existed 90 or 100 years ago. In fact, rebutting the presumption would be virtually impossible, since absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. And there is no reason that should be a problem, and one reason that NGRIDIRON formed a consensus that players with even one NFL game should be presumed notable. And while I think it is "virtually impossible" to rebut the presumption for a very old player, it is not necessarily impossible - see the case of Lewis (baseball), which rebutted the similar presumption for NBASE. But it is very difficult to rebut such a presumption and should be, and no reason to delete (this isn't even a BLP case) and override NGIRDIRON just because of that. Rlendog (talk) 15:56, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
  • Then that's where we disagree. In my view, if no appropriate sources can be found in a well-attended 7-day AfD, then there is a more than sufficient likelihood that the sources do not exist and the presumption of notability is rebutted. Otherwise, the presumption would be all but impossible to rebut, and would not be a presumption at all. That would be at odds with our core policy WP:V, which requires us, as pointed out by S Marshall above, to delete content that cannot be verified through reliable sources. Sandstein 16:36, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
    • Actually, the article was completely verified (with 15+ references), as I stated in my DRV rationale. BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:40, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
      • Yes, I noted the repeated references to number of bytes and numbers of references. Do any of them amount to WP:SIGCOV? Because if you're claiming the article does meet the GNG, then this entire "NGRIDIRON should trump GNG" discussion is surely at cross-purposes and unnecessary. 109.255.211.6 (talk) 17:00, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
    • You and S Marshall are confusing verifiability and notability. The article had plenty of citations to third-party reliable sources, as required by WP:V. The argument for deletion was that the subject doesn't have significant coverage in third-party reliable sources. That's based on WP:GNG, and only the GNG. The GNG is not a core policy, it's not even a policy. It may well be your "view" that if sources don't turn up during an AfD then they probably don't exist, but as a closer you aren't imposing your "view" on the discussion. Hut 8.5 17:48, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
      • I don't feel confused. I feel as if we're under a duty to base biographies on high-quality independent sources that give sufficient biographical information to write a biographical article, and sources that meet that requirement would always amount to "significant coverage".—S Marshall T/C 19:00, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
  • Do you feel that when the guideline page says "In addition, the subjects of standalone articles should meet the General Notability Guideline," that should be read as "Assume they meet GNG unless and until proven otherwise by exhaustive search"? Because if that's the intended reading, it'd be a deuced sight clearer and more helpful to editors for it to say so in terms. (Whether in general for NSPORTS, or as the Wikiproject seems to feel NGRIDIRON is in some way a higher standard and their articles are of greater inherent notability than other top-level professional sports -- specific to NFL and precursors.) 109.255.211.6 (talk) 17:00, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
• Overturn If the claim that the subject meets a SNG, the primary question is to verify that the subject actually meets the GNG (in this case, did the subject play a game in the NFL). As Hut mentioned, the SNGs provide a presumption of notability. That all said, if there is concern that the SNG does not work, that not all subjects in the class receive significant coverage, then we ought to reopen (to tighten up) the SNG. I think the closer did not properly apply the SNG to this case. --Enos733 (talk) 18:18, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Comment. A couple things I want to note. A) NSPORT explicitly mentions in at least three places that it does not confer notability directly and that GNG must be met. B) In my opinion, the argument that SIGCOV might exist somewhere was sufficiently rebutted. I should preface this by saying there are cases where non-SIGCOV material is discovered during AfD that I consider reasonable enough evidence for the existence of offline SIGCOV to strike or switch my !vote. But in the case of Vainowski I sincerely do not think an encyclopedic biography is possible. For one, the bulk of the article was this paragraph:

A player identified by the name "Vainowski" or "Vanowski" also played line positions for other professional football teams in Illinois from 1923 through the early 1930s, including the following appearances:

"Vanowski" played for the Rockford Gophers during the 1923 season, recording a safety against the Moline Indians.
"Vainowski" (sometimes referred to "Vanowski") played at the right guard and left guard positions for Joey Sternaman's Pullman Panthers of the Midwest Football League in 1924. He was described as one of the "shining lights of the Pullman squad."
"Vanowski" played for the Harvey Athletic Association (Harvey, Illinois) professional football team during the 1925 season.
"Vainowski" returned to the Pullman professional football team in 1929.

"Vainowski", identified as a 238-pound tackle out of Loyola, again played for Chicago's Pullman Panthers in 1931.

No one besides a wikipedia editor has made a connection between these Vainowskis and our Pete; they're probably the same person but the mentions are so brief (trivial, even) that, on top of being original research, their DUEness is also questionable. Even worse, there were just two sources that had a full name: two small local obits (submitted by the family) from the 1950s that describe his career at a telephone company but don't even mention he played football. Either this was a different Pete S Vainowski, or Vainowski/his family did not consider his time in the NFL important enough for even a single clause in his obituary. Then there's the fact that someone wrote in to a newspaper in ~1935 asking about his team's composition in 1926 and a journalist who was seemingly in contact with the team's manager said there wasn't any further info on players that season because the manager admitted he kept poor records. Keep in mind newspapers curated thousands of clippings from other newspapers on specific topics, so if more details existed on that team's entire season in contemporary reports it's very likely they would have found something in their archives. They did not, and from that I believe we can reasonably assume significant or even trivial coverage does not exist for all individual NFL players in this time period. JoelleJay (talk) 18:55, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

@Curbon7, Curbon7, Enos733, Hut 8.5, Gonzo fan2007, Jclemens, Lepricavark, and Metropolitan90: JoelleJay (talk) 18:57, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Actually that paragraph you listed as the "bulk of the article" was not in the page at the time of deletion, as I completely re-wrote the article when Pro-Football-Reference verified them as the same person. Also, I think your statement of "I believe we can reasonably assume significant or even trivial coverage does not exist for all individual NFL players in this time period." is absolute nonsense. For example, the other day, I randomly picked a few 1920s one-gamers (you're saying all!?) to make an article of, Karl Thielscher, Shirley Brick, Carl Etelman, Ching Hammill, and got each of them in to excellent shape (and two at DYK). BeanieFan11 (talk) 19:09, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Also, the 1926 Louisville Colonels season was covered in-depth, as a Newspapers.com search in 1926 of "Louisville Colonels" brings up... 24,900 results (see [6]). BeanieFan11 (talk) 19:19, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

I did not say no NFL players in this time had SIGCOV. I said we can't assume it exists for all of them. And in my opinion biographies should consist mainly of material that is encyclopedic -- info should adhere to WP:NOT and WP:DUE and not contain every single detail that can be found on a person. If the only or even primary info that can be found comes from contemporary news articles reporting routine events, especially stuff that's only reported by one outlet, then the topic runs afoul of WP:NOTEVERYTHING and WP:NOTNEWS. I haven't seen a single source for Vainowski that goes beyond even trivial coverage in game recaps. JoelleJay (talk) 20:30, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

JoelleJay, is there a specific purpose of your ping? « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 19:14, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Also, with regards to this specific close: in the last year there have been dozens (hundreds?) of deletions of athletes who met an NSPORT SSG but not GNG/NSPORT itself and had a numerically close enough !vote differential that the closer left a remark explicitly referencing (participants' arguments on) NSPORT's relationship to GNG. This has been across a wide array of professional sports with numerous different closing admins. So Sandstein's close is not at all out of the ordinary, nor is his interpretation of the PAGs idiosyncratic. JoelleJay (talk) 19:06, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

• Endorse. A "presumption of notability" is just that -- a presumption. It does not mean anyone who meets the criteria is automatically notable. To quote WP:NSPORT, "meeting of any of these [sport-specific] criteria does not mean that an article must be kept." In this case, there are apparently no sources to establish this individual's notability, so it should be deleted. Calidum 19:10, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
• Comment for those interested in seeing the last version of the article before deletion: User:Gonzo fan2007/Pete Vainowski. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 19:17, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
• Endorse per above, sports SNGs provide a presumption of notability that can be defeated through AFD. That is what happened here. Therapyisgood (talk) 19:52, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
• Overturn. Sourcing was quality and a consensus to keep was evident. Etzedek24 ^{(I'll talk at ya) (Check my track record)} 20:48, 11 January 2022 (UTC)