Talk:Valencia

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was no move. -- tariqabjotu 01:07, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

Rationale: Rationale: Currently Valencia is pointing at Valencia (disambiguation), considering that the Spanish town is the most known geographical entity, I believe the wikipedia entry "Valencia" should reflect this. E Asterion ^{u talking to me?} 13:32, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Survey

Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

• Support, nominator. --E Asterion ^{u talking to me?} 13:32, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support -- other divisions in Spain are named for the city; other similarly named places elsewhere are clearly minor compared to this one Neutral I didn't realize the city in Venezuela is pretty big. Definitely move from Valencia (city) but not to plain "Valencia" --Polaron | Talk 06:31, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support --Húsönd 14:11, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support No doubt here. Valentinian ^{(talk) / (contribs)} 21:12, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support I don’t see San Francisco pointing to a disambiguation page (not that it should be). —Lagalag 15:56, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose There are too many other Valencias. (city) is a satisfactory disambiguatory parenthetic remark, though (city in Spain) would most clearly and appropriately disambiguate it from all the other Valencias at Valencia (disambiguation). --Serge 17:44, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
• Neutral. Valencia, Spain is not helpful -- several of the other dab entries are cities too, of course. In addition, the Venezuelan Valencia is the largest of the group in terms of inhabitants -- it's a bit harsh to say all the others "are clearly minor" in comparison to the Spanish city. Bolivian Unicyclist 18:55, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

  You have a point and this could be understood as a case of systemic bias. Nevertheless, I assume that the Venezuelan Valencia was named after the Spanish one? My main problem was about the name Valencia (city) as it gave the impresion that there was a single city called Valencia instead many. If too many people oppose, I believe that Valencia (city) should be moved to Valencia, Spain, though I think that the city called Valencia in Spain, is more known throughout the world and the wikipedia Valencia article should reflect this. Thanks for pointing this out and regards, E Asterion ^{u talking to me?} 22:47, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

  You're right on both counts: it is systemic bias here on Wikipedia, and it is a reflection of the fact that Valencia, Spain, is better known throughout the world because of systemic bias in the world. A wikipedian in search of an interesting intellectual exercise could do well to take a look at Barcelona (and Barcelona (disambiguation)), Valencia, Córdoba, Guadalajara, Mérida and Cuenca (and the related dabs), see in which cases "primary topic disambiguation" is awarded and in which it isn't, and then infer what criteria are used. It seems that if the European city is bigger, it gets the city slot; if the city in America is bigger, the city slot is a dab page. Makes you wonder what would happen if León, Guanajuato, were in the United States, or Boston, Massachusetts, were in Panama. Regards, Bolivian Unicyclist 23:31, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose although population shouldn't necessarily control, here there are several large Valencia's and the one in Spain can be at València, its Catalan name. Carlossuarez46 00:40, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

  Comment: We tend to respect English language most common denomination for a place: E.g. This is why Sevilla, in Andalusia, is referred as Seville in en.wikipedia. Regards, E Asterion ^{u talking to me?}

  • What re-directs to it is another issue, so Sevilla also redirects to Seville, etc. But having Valencia, Spain seems to be in contradistinction to Valencia (orange) not to Valencia (another city) etc. I like Vegaswikian's approach. Carlossuarez46 01:36, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose Valencia is used internationally, so it would be best to leave it alone. However, I think Valencia (disambiguation) is rather redundant if Valencia redirects to it. But I guess that's another issue. --Chris S. 05:30, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

  In that case, the Valencia page should be move-protected as a new user had used it for the article that I then moved to Valencia (band), with a complete disregard for any other meaning. I had to clear out the mess just before redirecting it to Valencia (disambiguation), while seeking consensus for its final use. Regards, E Asterion ^{u talking to me?} 07:54, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose given that to many Valencia is the orange. Also based on the above discussion, it appears that Valencia (disambiguation) should be returned to Valencia. Valencia, Spain should be renamed to Valencia, Spain. Vegaswikian 21:00, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
  • I endorse Vegaswikian's proposal. Carlossuarez46 01:36, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support: most people who will be looking up Valencia in an encyclopedia will be looking for the Spanish city. And, for the rest, disambiguation will be one step away. - Jmabel | Talk 00:18, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

  Comment I'm embarrassed to say that I didn't know there was a city in Spain called Valencia (though it wouldn't be surprising). Usually I think of the autonomous community of Valencia. --Chris S. 01:24, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

  I think that is a regional bias. Have you looked at the dab page and seen how many items are listed there? To say that one is clearly the one that everyone would be looking for is a leap of faith. Vegaswikian 01:57, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

  I don't know how I forgot to mention Six Flags Magic Mountain located in Valencia, California. This further makes the case that the city in Spain is not the predominant use of this name. Maybe because there are so many users that need equal billing. Vegaswikian 07:47, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Comments

Three comments:

1. Fair disclosure: I invite the participants in this discussion to review the recent changes I made to the Valencia (disambiguation) page.
2. Also: if this requested move fails, would Valencia, Spain get moved to Valencia, Spain? Doesn't Spain have a province-based disambiguation scheme (like, for example, Italy)?
3. Kind of a related issue: I'd appreciate a disinterested party or two taking a glance at Guadalajara (disambiguation) and its talk. An anon and I think we're both right, and obviously we can't be.

Thanks, Bolivian Unicyclist 19:23, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it has. The problem is that in that case, the name would be Valencia, Valencia, which sounds a bit odd... In any case, it would possibly require a new nomination before any possible move can take place. E Asterion ^{u talking to me?} 20:41, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

By the way, the changes to the Valencia (disambiguation) page looks fine to me. E Asterion ^{u talking to me?} 20:45, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. And yes, Valencia, Valencia, seems strange to me, too (although I'll readily admit that could just be my lack of familiarity). Does the format used domestically use parentheses -- ie, "Valencia (Valencia)" -- or is Valencia just so big and well-known that the province is never indicated? Bolivian Unicyclist 22:02, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

In Spain, Valencia generally refers to the city; Provincia de Valencia to the province and Comunidad Autónoma de Valencia or País Valenciano to the region. Indeed a tricky one. E Asterion ^{u talking to me?} 22:10, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

It has been moved to Valencia (city in Spain) at the end. Regards, E Asterion ^{u talking to me?} 07:37, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Old discussions

Sadly, it seems some school kids from Valencia, US California, have hijacked this article.

---

I'd like to know who wrote the "economics" part of this entry. It's absolutely political! Urbanism and the destruction of Cabanyal as the main economic points of the city of Valencia in a reknown encyclopedia? Someone should prevent this from happening.

Valencia was not the last capital of the Spanish Republic. After the fall of Valencia the government moved to Barcelona and in the very last days of the war, to Figueres -- apoivre 09:40, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Why are there catalan and valencian versions of the name of the city, being catalan and valencian the same language ? There might be differences in pronunciation btw the language as spoken in Valencia and other places, just as for any other language, but I don't think that these differences are usually reported in wikipedia anyway. 82.41.77.194 18:56, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

OK, OK. Look, I added the Valencian pronunciation because, well, this is Valencia and the way Catalans say València is radically different from the way they say it around here, and so to put only the standard Central Catalan pronunciation would seem like I was imposing an alien way of speaking. I see your point though. It is true that it made it look as though they were two different languages (when everybody knows they're not).

I'm going to find a compromise: I'll add the info about the local pronunciation, but down in the article, leaving only Catalan at the top. Chameleon 22:49, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The language quarrel

The language quarrel is the most absurd issue I have ever seen!! Why is it internationally accepted that Serb and Croat are different languages while Valencian and Catalan cannot be accepted as separate languages? The same holds true for Czech and Slovak. They are SEPARATE official languages and are recognized as such by the European Union. This is just another claim by the Catalan nationalists without any historical justification. It gives them the right to claim the "Catalanism" of Valencian writers just because their language is similar to the Catalan!! Can you imagine the Australian government claiming Shakespeare was Australian just because he wrote in English?? There is no person on earth that would ever support such a sensless claim but on the other hand Catalans seem to have a birthright to make unsubstantiated claims.

There is an ongoing political battle between defendors of valencian and catalan names for the language. This is often a cause for flame wars. It is important to maintain an strict neutrality to avoid constant changes. See entries for valencian language and catalan language. --195.212.29.163 18:21, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, I know. Spazzing out on language issues is a favourite Spanish hobby. I'll see if I can keep things calm, accurate and neutral. Chameleon 22:49, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Nice article. Just one detail needs changing: Valencia wasn't made the Republican capital after the fall of Madrid during the Spanish Civil War. The move came in response to Franco's ultimately unsuccessful attack on Madrid in the autumn of 1936 (many thought he would take the capital, hence the move down to the coast). In fact the city didn't fall until the very end of the war in the spring of 1939.

This entry hijacked by pro-Catalan users

It's a pitty that out of all Wikipedia, this entry has been hijacked by pro-Catalan users who use it to convey their anti-Valencian message.

Everything remotely positive about Valencia is immediately removed only to be replaced by anti-Valencian hatred, as if it were South Africa during the apartheid years. Imagine a Wikipedia in 1960 with the "USA" entry going like this: "USA is located in North America and blacks have no rights in that country".

Nevertheless, such short-sighted individuals will not alter the prosperous path in which the Region is right now. Millions of visitors keep coming back, increasing by the thousands each year. Has anyone ever wondered why Britons move to Alicante or Denia for their retirement and not to Tarragona or Girona?

This kind of reaction is entirely understandable though. Who wouldn't envy their neighbors if they were increasingly successful and a potential threat, both economically and politically? The Alicante province will be the fourth most populous of the country in 2 to 3 years, surpassing Seville. By the turn of the decade, the Valencia Region will have 2 out of the 4 most populous provinces in Spain, while the migration balance between Valencia and Catalonia is clearly in favor of the former.

Valencia's harbor surpassed Barcelona's a few years ago in total traffic and is now the largest in the Mediterranean basin. Valencia's airport increased its traffic 7 times more than Barcelona's during the first half of 2005.

Cheers from Valencia

Come and visit Europe's new trendy city (as declared by the BBC twice in 2005)

I don't understand what you are talking about. If you're disturbed as I've removed text of yours, it's because at the source text there aren't any explicit permission to copy, distribute, and modify (with commercial use or not). I've found that you were copying text exactly from http://www.ivex.es, with no copyright statement nor terms of use. It is against wikipedia ruling on GFDL. You must known better Wikipedia before to encourage hating between brotherhood countries of Catalonia and Valencia. It isn't possitive to modify only the text on several articles in the way to make nonexistent conflicts between both people. Last thing more to add, altough I'm Catalan-speaker, it isn't meaning me as Catalonian, but I'm Valencian. --Joanot Martorell ✉ 21:44, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

There is no brotherhood between Catalonia and Valencia. There is just a permanent harassment from Catalans towards the rest of Spain and especially Valencia.

Anti-Valencian sentiment

To the mindless pro-Catalan hijacking this entry:

1. I don't understand your insisting on the LRAU and the Cabanyal. As far as the LRAU is concerned, as of today, there has been no official sentence from the European Union. I ignore what happens in your country, but in the European Union, one is innocent until proven guilty, not the other way round. As for the Cabanyal, the Supreme justice has approved the local government actions and deemed them LEGAL.

2. Your comment about north africans is a clear example of your radical, racist mentality.

3. No matter what you write, Valencia is on an ascending path while Barcelona is steadily declining, in a way similar to the Basque Country, where radicals and extremists alienated businessmen and foreing investors. If you bother reading the European Union's comment on the proposed Catalan statutes, their criticism is not focused on whether they can call themselves a nation, but rather on the Soviet-style, communistlike economy where every sector (telecom, industry, media, airports, ports, motorways) is controled by a powerful and totalitarian Generalitat. In fact, the most disturbing aspect of the proposed Catalan statutes is the virtual elimination of the market economy and private enterprise.

4. Come to Altea and watch the thousands of British retirees that come and permanently live in the Valencia Community.

Someone nickNamed JOANOT MARTORELL shouldn't be allowed to speak/ write/ argue about Valencia, even if he is a Valencian Citizen. He is clearly a suporter of a minoritarial belief of valencia being an independant country (same as the comunity of cataluña... anyone can search JOANOT MARTORELL and know that he is the author of TIRANT LO BLANC a novel comonly used by independentist fanatists. nothing more to say... i've read already too much about this person nicked named JOANOT and it is quite infuriating as his points of view are absolutely inexact or manipulated.

View from an outsider

As a non-Spaniard who has spent some time in Valencia and considers it one of my favorite cities, I am saddened by the poor quality of this article. The economy section is pure politics. There is no mention of the university, the vibrant nightlife, the art museums, the covered market, El Carmen, the Turia gardens etc. And Valencia FC is more than a "reasonably successful team"! On the plus side, the pictures in the gallery are lovely. But the text needs to be neutralised and expanded. There are some great city pages on Wikipedia, but this is not one of them! Better to light a candle than to curse the darkness, so I added some information about climate (in leading paragraph), architecture, museums, parks and gardens, and nightlife (in culture). I still think there needs to be a lot of work.

Agreed!

As yet another visitor to Valencia, and someone who fell in love with this city, I must adhere to the above mentioned comments. This article really needs to be cleaned up and expanded to be worthy of such a wonderful city. It's far too short and unprecise in my opinion. Although I can understand that the Catalonian vs. Valencian politics makes this article very 'hot', that is no justification of the general quality of the article, is it? the--dud 00:52, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

No speedy delete.

The city and the land are two separate topics. This is an invalid speedy and either a mistake or vandalism. Night Gyr 00:28, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Agree. I'm going to delete both tags. Am I breaking a rule here...? (Looks nervously over shoulder.) Weregerbil 01:51, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

About the oranges...

I looked this up on a whim, but it turns out evidence is lacking that Valencia orange refers to Valencia, Spain. The article on the Valencia orange makes no mention of Valencia, Spain, and an article by the University of Florida also calls into question the Spanish origin:

"The origin of 'Valencia' is uncertain and there is no evidence to support the common assumption of Spanish origin. Many believe it originated in Portugal because it is indistinguishable from a cultivar grown there. Trees were originally imported to this country about 1870 by S. B. Parsons, a Long Island nurseryman. The cultivar first reached Florida in 1877 when E. H. Hart of Federal Point purchased trees from Parsons. Initially named 'Hart's Tardier', 'Valencia' later acquired its current name because of similarities between it and a cultivar growing in Valencia, Spain." http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/BODY_CH066

Another page talks of the origins:

"The Southern California citrus industry began after 1870 with Anaheim physician Dr. William Hardin, who is credited with planting the first grove of oranges from Tahitian seeds. The original Spanish orange, introduced to Southern California in the early eighteenth century, was considered too tart and dry. Experimenting with grafts between the Tahitian and Spanish varieties Richard Gilmore of Placentia produced the Valencia orange in 1872." http://ljames1.home.netcom.com/orange_history.html

An even more interesting hypothesis:

"The Valencia Orange probably originated in China, and spread to many parts of the globe under different names." http://www.sandimasnews.com/history/8.html

I know this isn't going to win me any friends, but I thought it was interesting because it points out that the obvious isn't true. Malandi 18:53, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Late response: your opening sentence suggests that Valencia orange might not refer to Valencia, Spain, but your quotes don't support that. The first quote clearly expresses the belief that it does refer to it; the second quote seems to imply that it does; and the third quote doesn't say anything one way or the other. I'd ask that, where possible, you distinguish between information about terms and information about what the terms designate, as matters can become very convoluted very quickly when this distinction is not observed. (This is especially true in an encyclopedia, since articles are typically about what terms designate but sometimes must discuss the terms themselves.) Ruakh 02:24, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Photos: Too much architecture

Some cityscapes and panoramas would be a big asset to this article. Too many architectural shots. -Rolypolyman 02:07, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

homphobia in article

Why is it not permitted to add information about gay valencia? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.229.33.175 (talk • contribs)

You are adding spam and mentioning how to get drugs. This does not belong to wikipedia, thank you very much. E Asterion ^{u talking to me?} 10:47, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Pronunciation in Castilian

Seeing that the [v] has returned in the IPA transcription of the pronunciation of the name of the city in Castilian, I am curious to ask: Do Valencians really distinguish between the /b/ and the /v/ when speaking Castilian? Let’s settle this matter once and for all. —Lagalag 09:37, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Altough the "Diccionario de la Real Academia de la Lengua Espa/ola" about the "v" consonant, is clear:

v.

1. f. Vigésima quinta letra del abecedario espa/ol, y vigésima segunda del orden latino internacional, que representa un fonema consonántico labial y sonoro, el mismo que la b en todos los países de lengua espa/ola. Su nombre es uve, ve, ve baja o ve corta.

In Catalan, it's more or less the same matter, there are speakers that don't distinguish v/b (eastern and north-eastern Catalonia), and another speakers that do it (western Catalonia, whole Land of Valencia, and Balearic Islands). I've found the following reference:

«La oposición y distinción entre el fonema /b/ […] y el fonema /v/ […], que existen en varias lenguas como el francés, el italiano y muchas más, se ha perdido en parte del territorio catalán. […] Sería algo difícil, pero ciertamente positivo que la lengua culta (p.e. en la lectura cuidada, en los discursos, en el canto, etc.) intentase el reestablecimiento en toda nuestra área lingüística de la pronunciación labio-dental de la v, viviendo aun en la Comunidad Valenciana, Mallorca, al Camp de Tarragona, etc. […]»

Reference: «El català en fitxes» 3ª Edició, de Josep Ruaix i Vinyet. (C) J. Ruaix, 1977. vól 1 pág.10 (ficha 10). Info found here. It seems that this form of pronounciation is a linguistic inheritance of the ancient Iberian people, wich most area was from Almeria to Provence, across the mediterranean coast (don't mistake with the Celtiberians).

In Spanish, almost in the most common area with the Catalan-speaking area, the v/b are distinguishable. I think that in Venezuela there is distinguishable also. --Joanot Martorell ✉ 10:17, 20 July 2006 (UTC) PD: Or by Argentinians.

But the article marks "Castilian Spanish: Valencia /va'lenθia/;". Maybe Valencian Spanish has /v/, but Castilian does not.

So then I don’t understand. Why does the article still insist on the [v]-pronunciation, and at least twice, at that? —Lagalag 05:39, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

I came across an article in the Spanish Wikipedia on a Spanish dialect spoken in some parts of the Valencian Community (but not in the city of Valencia itself) which may also be of interest. It states that /v/ is indeed pronounced as [v] in those areas. —Lagalag 08:07, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Ecclesiastical history

Is it just me or is this section way, way too long?

--Bcnviajero 19:54, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Numismatics?

Why is this article part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Numismatics? Was that a joke? Ruakh 13:43, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I've no idea but I've seen it in other "unrelated" pages too. Maybe the people behind that project could clarify this? E Asterion ^{u talking to me?} 16:28, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

The article's listed in Category:Ancient mints. If that's the reason, it seems tenuous at best. Bolivian Unicyclist 18:37, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Help disambiguating

Hello everyone, there is a current need to help disambiguate the term Valencia. At Wikipedia:Disambiguation pages with links, Valencia is one of the disambiguation pages with the most links, and ideally there should be no links to disambiguation pages. So if possible, please take a look at the links, and disambiguate to a more correct location. Thanks, -- Jeff3000 03:46, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Italics

Should we use italic when using words in Spanish? That is the general convention, but since it is not done here, I hesitate to start. Your thoughts? Paul, in Saudi 13:17, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

In general, yes. But there are exception: take a look at Wikipedia:Manual of Style (text formatting) :-) Evv 17:28, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was move to Valencia, Spain.--Húsönd 21:51, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Requested move 2

Valencia (city in Spain) → Valencia (Spain) — No need for the "city in". Húsönd 02:09, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Survey

Add  * '''Support'''  or  * '''Oppose'''  on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.

• Support as nom.--Húsönd 02:11, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
• Support as per nom. --Asterion^talk 16:20, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
• Support to Valencia, Spain. Seems to be the most common dab form at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (city names). Vegaswikian 19:08, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
• Support Valencia, Spain. Valenciano 21:45, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
• Support obvious. ~ trialsanderrors 04:05, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
• Support. Bolivian Unicyclist 12:30, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
• Support as nominated. --Polaron | Talk 14:01, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
• Support per nom. - Evv 17:28, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Comment I think there's a consensus here. However, Valencia, Spain might be more adequate than Valencia (Spain), as per Vegaswikian and Valenciano. If there are no objections I shall move the article to Valencia, Spain then.--Húsönd 18:05, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

• No objection here. - Evv 05:55, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional comments:

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Days with rain

How many days with precipitation does Valencia have per year? —Lagalag 05:35, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Problem with the spam detector: Add this please

please, i cant change it because the spam detector blocks the page. This two lines goes at the beginning, just before the "native name"

image = [[Image:Sciences museum of valencia.jpg|250px]] |

caption = Sciences museum in [[Ciutat de les Arts i les Ciències|Ciudad de las artes y las ciencias]]|

Transportation

It seems to me that once the Valencia article gets edited, it will be a fairly god article. However, the article is not complete until it talks about the city's transportation, such as the airport, subway system, etc.

Citations?

This needs some citation. There's NONE whatsoever, and if this article is going to have any value, it needs to cite its soruces.

A side note: The prose for history seems a little messy and out of order. It would be nice if someone could clean that up a little. Jeri-kun 18:52, 22 January 2007 (UTC)