Talk:Eurovision Song Contest 2023

Is this really necessary

We usually wait till the winter of the previous before we create the next article Yarisplayz (talk) 18:27, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

Yeah I feel like this should be made a draft, if anything. Granfcanuon (talk) 06:15, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

Why? There is actual news and information coming from a reliable independant secondary source, so this does not qualify for WP:TOOSOON in my eyes. Other articles such as the Olympics and other major tournaments are also being created years in advance when there is information available, so I don't see why this has to be any different. — TheThomanski | t | c | 18:49, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

If a mention from a single independent source is enough then we can create articles about basically anything. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 12:18, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Sure if you want to go there I've added 4 more sources, and can add even more if you really want to. — TheThomanski | t | c | 09:41, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

That just seems like a WP:REFBOMB to me. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 09:55, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Just adding more sources does not immediately mean notability bomb. Actually read a section before you cite it. — TheThomanski | t | c | 20:01, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

Yes I did read it. References should be there to support the content; all these extra references really don't. As far as I know the only reason you added them is to make the subject appear more notable. There is currently nearly no information about ESC 2023 from reliable sources. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 23:00, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

please drop the article

the rules clearly state that the winner hosts. ukraine will not even exist soon. there will therefore not be a esc 2023. the EBU needs a year to change the rules. maybe it can be hosted in a different country in 2024 but, 2023 is impossible. 84.212.100.141 (talk) 09:32, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

The rules do not state this. It's tradition, but not required. Historically non-winners have hosted Eurovision for a multitude of reasons, mainly lack of funding from winning countries. Besides, Eurovision is an annual event. By your logic, the 2020 article should be dropped because the event didn't happen. In the extremely unlikely event that ESC2023 doesn't happen, it's notable for that alone just like 2020. Your request is invalid. MinMinnH (talk) 11:58, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

the rules was changed during the 80s so that only the winner can arrange. after which, the winner always have. my request is very valid. the contest will either be held in ukraine or not at all. since ukraine will not exist next year, no contest can be held.84.212.100.141 (talk) 12:21, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

1) Provide a source for the supposed rule change. I haven't been able to find anything of the sort. 2) Your speculation on Ukraine's continued existence is irrelevant and inappropriate. MinMinnH (talk) 12:38, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

This just isn't going to happen, and especially not since the insurance policies were revised following the Pandemic. The 2020 show was cancelled as the insurance at that time would not pay out if any sort of replacement contest was mounted; hence the Shine A Light replacement programme (which in itself had to be strictly non-competitive) and the offical album were not allowed to use the words "Song Contest" on their branding, and could only use the word "Eurovision" to brand the material. This changed in 2021 ensuring that the show would go on no matter what; hence the Junior 2020 edition did not get cancelled since this was a research & development test for the worst-case scenario.

Regardless of whatever happens with the war, COVID-19 or anything else the policies now in place mean there will 100% be a show. 86.10.212.177 (talk) 01:49, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Once again, the rules of the winning country hosting isn't necessary. It only stopped in 1980 because Israel had a religious festival that week. After that, no major thing happened to stop production within the hosting country. Even if Ukraine can't host, the EBU will take note and choose a different country to organize the event. Please find a reliable source that mentions this if there is one in the first place. Suffice to say, the facts are more important than opinions. Especially yours. Jusherman (talk) 07:06, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Can we remove "Declared interest in hosting"

there is zero confirmation Ukraine wont host and this really feels like jumping the gun and insinuating that an external nation will 100% host it, if Ukraine does decide to not host this can be readded but for now i dont think it should exist Popeter45 (talk) 12:55, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

There is also zero confirmation that Ukrain will host. It's tradition that the winning country hosts, but not at all necessary. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 14:57, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

the status quo is that Ukraine will host so that should be assumed unless otherwise stated Popeter45 (talk) 15:24, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

We don't assume things on Wikipedia, we write things down as they are. And the way it is right now, it is simply not certain that Ukraine will host the competition. This has been the standard thing to do for years now; until the organisers confirm that they will host, no assumption is made. It's just that normally this confirmation happens immediately after the previous contest. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 16:28, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

By having this section people ARE assuming it wont be hosted in Ukraine so by your logic it should be removed as just Speculation rather than fact, please provide evidence this is a "standard thing to do" Popeter45 (talk) 16:33, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Which part of that states that the contest won't be in Ukraine?

Regarding your request for evidence: in recent years the next Eurovision Song Contest host country was announced on the same day as the victory, so there is no recent example. For the Junior Eurovision Song Contest though, that normally takes a bit longer. Take a look at how the page Junior Eurovision Song Contest 2021 looked ten days after the 2020 edition (before the new host country was announced). ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 21:43, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Everybody knows that Ukraine cannot give security guarantees in time for the preparations to start. There is indeed no hard statement yet that Ukraine won't host, but if you cannot give security guarantees, you cannot host. In this article we report incrementally on the process of deciding the host city/venue and for 2023, this is part of that process. We have not included any statement that Ukraine won't host, because such statement does not exist. Meanwhile, all included alternative options come with a provision one way or the other that the right to host still lies with Ukraine for now. Hhl95 (talk) 16:13, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

UA:PBC/Suspline have not confirmed that they WILL host either. Although I am not privy to the discussions taking place between the EBU, UA:PBC, etc. there is a precedent as a proxy host nation would be required in the event of an Australian victory. Likewise, a Sanmarinese victory would also require a proxy host due to lack of suitable infastructure.

It's also worth noting that it wasn't a given that the Netherlands would host the 2021 edition following the cancellation of the 2020 contest.

To bring this back to whether this content should be on the page, although countries have participated whilst at war (most notably Bosnia & Herzogovina in 1993) what there isn't a precedent for is for a country in a state of war actually winning the competition. This is very much uncharted territory. 86.10.212.177 (talk) 01:44, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Russian participation

There is no information about Russian participation. So we can't say that Russia is "country that participated in the past but not in 2023". The situation can change before the contest begins. Cat in coat (talk) 20:22, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

At the current time, as far as we know, the EBU intends on suspending its Russian members, who were all intent on leaving anyway - see here. Therefore, it can be deduced that it is very unlikely that we will see Russia next year. Siclika (talk) 21:36, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Russian broadcasters are suspended as EBU members, so Russia is not able to take part. This could change in theory, but this is the current situation. Hhl95 (talk) 16:20, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

Russian broadcasters have had their membership of the EBU suspended as a result of the invasion. Russia therefore cannot participate. 86.10.212.177 (talk) 01:37, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

ESC 2023 in associate country?

JoãotheWikiFan (talk) 14:18, 16 May 2022 (UTC)The EBU has members outside of Europe! The "associate members". Imagine if ESC was hosted outside of Europe? Like USA, Canada or even in my country, Brazil! Do you guys think it's a good idea?

Please see WP:NOTFORUM doktorb _words^deeds 14:31, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Not going to happen due to travel costs for the delegations as well as the time difference. 86.10.212.177 (talk) 01:38, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 May 2022

UK has already announced we are taking part in 2023 2A02:C7E:3C91:6B00:FC0C:2F8B:FADB:3F21 (talk) 02:40, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Do you have a source that confirms this? ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 10:15, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:11, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Canadian participation

I don't think that's happening, I believe the article sited is as a result of misinterpretation of the announcement of "Eurovision Canada" from the Eurovision website. There are no EBU sources indicating that Canada will join in 2023. 23.248.100.151 (talk) 21:52, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

Correct. I removed it a few minutes before. ser! ^{(chat to me - see my edits)} 21:56, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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== ukraine should be removed from the list ==

here is the thing: ukraine surrendered to russia weeks ago, shortly after esc 2022. ukraine as a result does not exist and can not participate. russia is no longer able to participate and ukraine is now russia. 84.212.100.141 (talk) 09:58, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

And have you got a source for that, or are you just trolling? Siclika (talk) 10:04, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

🇲🇦

Is it true that Morocco will participate in ESC 2023? 213.149.61.179 (talk) 19:51, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

Speculation falls foul of WP:Forum unless you have a valid source doktorb _words^deeds 21:57, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

OVO Hydro - just speculation?

In the article, there is a brief mention that the Daily Express of Scotland had suggested that the 2023 contest may be held in the OVO Hydro, as the venue had cleared its schedule for May of next year. However, there is no material information to back this up yet, and it might just be pure coincidence. Does such speculation belong on a Wikipedia page of this kind? Siclika (talk) 21:55, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

There are official media sources on the speculation, but as you noted, it may have been a coincidence. Really, a lot of the Location section is sourced speculation of this kind, and currently we're just documenting statements. Obviously, once EBU comes out with something official, it will override all previous claims. MinMinnH (talk) 12:02, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

I can completely understand your argument, but I feel as though there is a small difference between media speculation about the Hydro and the rest of the statements in the 'Location' section. We have concrete evidence that other broadcasters have said, 'We can step in if Suspilne cannot host the contest themselves,' and evidence that mayors and other politicians have said, 'If Ukraine passes the baton onto us, we'd be happy to host: here are some ideas of where we could do that.' With the Hydro, you have a blank calendar in May 2023 with British journalists taking note of that and decidedly gushing over the possibility that the Hydro is the host venue. To me, that does not seem to be enough to warrant inclusion, and I'd personally wait for an official explanation, be it from the venue, the BBC, the EBU, whomever. Though, I could just be a pedant at the end of the day, and if it actually happens, so fool me. Siclika (talk) 15:10, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

I also kinda feel like this is too speculative to be encyclopedic, despite it being sourced. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 18:22, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

I somewhat too noticed the difference between the direct countries-mayors statements and this Glasgow newspaper piece, as here it's another body speculating on agreement between two other bodies (broadcaster and venue), so I also understand what user:"Siclika" means as reaching too-far and I can support removing; if more sources will reference this later, I will support to re-add as for significance by wider coverage. אומנות (talk) 00:23, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Morrocco

The Moroccan broadcaster has confirmed non participation 2A04:4A43:4C5F:D45C:0:0:1029:B756 (talk) 09:26, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Source? doktorb _words^deeds 10:55, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Confirmation of Montenegro

@Aleki37: regarding what you said in this edit summary: silence does not per se mean agreement. Personally, I am not sure if that source is good enough to call it a confirmation, but I was also not sure enough to remove it. Multiple other people have shown that they disagree now though, so I think the talk page is a good place to discuss it. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 23:44, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure either; guess we just leave it like this now and wait for websites to try contacting RTCG. To me the source seems to pretty much confirm their participation, but i am aware that not everyone shares my opinion Aleki37 (talk) 23:47, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

For me that source is just a little too vague for me to take is as a confirmation of participation in 2023. A "focus on participation in the Eurovision Song Contest" isn't precise enough to be able to know for certain that they will participate in 2023. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 16:31, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

I agree that the source is too vague. It reads more like the funds went to their 2022 participation, so they can't allocate enough resources for the junior version, which is what the article is about. ×°˜`°×ηαη¢у×°˜`°× 10:32, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

The source doesn't say anything about 2023 and is foremost about the JESC. I will remove it for now, as I see others are also not convinced about this source. Let's just wait for explicit confirmation. Hhl95 (talk) 23:53, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Separated tables for semifinalists and finalists

I don't think we should separate the table for the finalists from the table for the semifinalists yet, we still don't know if Ukraine will be pre-qualified if they don't host Aleki37 (talk) 11:57, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Indeed. This is the first time since 1980 that the winner will not host and the first time since we have semi-finals. So this is an unprecedented situation with regard to whether or not the winner will be automatically qualified. My guess, assuming the UK will host, is that Ukraine will be among the Big 6 because the UK is already a Big 5 member. Regardless of what the rules are. It would've been a more interesting question if the runner-up was not a Big 5 member, say Serbia. Who knows, we might've had a Big 7 (Big 5 + winner + host). Or maybe the rule is that only the host automatically qualifies. But whether right or not, you see that people and organisations are willing to give Ukraine a favourable treatment in those times, so if the rule is that only the host pre-qualifies, the EBU might be willing to deviate from that rule this time. But anyways, all this is speculation from my side. Let's see what happens. I agree that we don't know if Ukraine will be pre-qualified and that we should bring the article in accordance with that. Hhl95 (talk) 10:49, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Australia

Shouldn't Australia be listed somewhere on this page? Australia was able to negotiate their participation in the contest until 2023. Even if they don't end up participating, isn't it something worth mentioning? This is the article I'm getting my information from: https://www.aussievision.net/post/2019/02/13/Australia-secures-a-spot-in-Eurovision-until-2023 — Preceding unsigned comment added by EliG.Weinmann (talk • contribs) 23:25, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

For EBU events, Australia is invited, but they can choose if they want to compete or not. For example, Australia was invited to participate in 2019, but they declined to participate. We'll have to wait if Australia will compete or not until a better source is found. Jusherman (talk) 06:59, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Australia competed in ESC 2019 they placed in the top 10 that year. You might be thinking of JESC where they were invited but declined. Alucard 16_{❯❯❯ chat?} 02:54, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

This isn't even correct either, Australia did in fact participate in JESC 2019 with Jordan Anthony's "We Will Rise". Granfcanuon (talk) 02:41, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

It is mentioned that Australia has a guaranteed invitation. However, as we all know with birthday parties and such, getting invited does not mean that you are coming. The invitor does not dictate your participation. So, to be clear, we need to wait for Australia to explicitly confirm participation for us to elaborate on Australia in the article. Hhl95 (talk) 10:42, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Ukraine - UK hosting battle

This is turning into quite a diplomatic row. So should we open the Incidents section early or keep things as is?--Pdhadam (talk) 10:55, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure I'd class this as an incident just yet, plus it's still very early days and I think this is currently covered at an appropriate level already in the "Location" section. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 16:21, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, wouldn't call this an incident. Relevant information about the location should be in the location section. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 16:32, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

It's not really a diplomatic row. It's just Ukrainians fuming at the EBU and the British pretty much agreeing with the Ukrainians. So far, I don't think we have to include it, unless it changes the EBU's position. Hhl95 (talk) 15:11, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Question - the article gives the impression that the EBU decided to not host in Ukraine magnanimously, i'm not sure that this is balanced? There were, as far as i am aware, three separate security assessments, one from Ukraine, one from EBU and one third-party. Notably the Ukraine security report concluded "“severe” risk of air raids/attacks by aircraft or attacks by drones or missiles, which can cause significant casualties". I think adding this to the selection section is a good idea, as it shows that efforts to correctly assess risk were undertaken by multiple parties. Jollyfroggy (talk) 11:35, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

City bids

So before I remove a whole table someone has put a lot of effort into, why are we including city bids already? The BBC has not even officially accepted the invitation yet, nor has the UK been confirmed as host country. This is just jumping the gun, and through editing, I thought we had some sort of tacit consensus that city bids are not included until a host country is confirmed. Any opinions? Hhl95 (talk) 15:15, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

I would suggest commenting out the table for now, that way the work that has been put in can be easily added back should the UK be confirmed as the host country. I do agree that hosting the table at this stage violates WP:CRYSTAL and is way too soon. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 16:36, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

@Hhl95 Yes, however Bristol, Glasgow, Newcastle, London and many more have entered a bid, officially. Fireste (talk) 18:03, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

That's not true. The host broadcaster outlines, activates and concludes the bidding procedure. Since we don't have a host broadcaster yet, we also do not have a bidding procedure. So official bids are impossible. Those cities have only expressed interest plus maybe some ideas. Henceforth, I will remove the paragraph of city bids. Hhl95 (talk) 19:35, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

@Hhl95: what was wrong with that paragraph? It never said that those were official bids? ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 20:00, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

That's right, but it makes no sense to talk about cities when the country isn't even known yet. If you check the edit page of that section, you'll see that we have a hidden table right there that can be published in case the UK gets confirmed as host country. But as long as we do not know a host country, it's not opportune to talk about host cities. The cities are just not at play right now. Hhl95 (talk) 22:21, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

I agree that the entire table is probably WP:UNDUE. But clearly, people have been talking about host cities, just look at the amount of sources there were. This is still relevant information to the contest, regardless of which country the EBU ends up picking. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 22:43, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

I would agree that it is pertinent to have some information about the potential UK host cities, even if the host country is still unknown at present. It is part of the context around the location of the contest that will remain relevant once a host country has been determined. The EBU have said that they are in discussions with the BBC, so there is justification for the talk around what UK city may host the contest, and while the table would definitely violate WP:CRYSTAL, even if the contest finds a different home the information here about potential UK host cities will remain relevant to the article going forwards. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 09:08, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

I agree that the table would be undue weight. Prose explaining the current status of determining the host nation with mentions of the individual cities that are interested seems to be the right level of detail at this time. That appears to be what's there right now as I type this. So supporting the current version. Grk1011 (talk) 13:07, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

I disagree. There is plenty of information that could serve as context, but that we don't include. The fact that information is available or talked about, does not mean it should be included in Wikipedia. The discussions with the BBC have not yet ended and could go either way, so talking about cities creates an undue bias to an outcome where the BBC ends up hosting and it's just not opportune now, the same way we do not mention the BBC as the hosting broadcaster yet. The current version violates WP:CRYSTAL just as much. So if nobody opposes, I'll remove it. Hhl95 (talk) 00:10, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

It was already clear that people oppose, Hhl95. It in no way violates WP:CRYSTAL because that is about unverifiable speculation, and this clearly is sourced. I also don't see how the UK cities are given undue weight; the paragraph contains one sentence discussing cities in the UK, the rest goes on about a potential Belgian bid (which btw is far less likely and is only really mentioned by one source, compared to the many sources for UK cities). Even in a future where the BBC does not end up hosting I'd keep this paragraph as it's part of the selection of the host city. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 01:57, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

I just went through the table to check sources. Please make sure that if you are adding a venue, it is part of an official proposal by the city, not conjecture or speculation by the author of the reference. Grk1011 (talk) 16:02, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Cardiff doesn't intend to bid

So, it was recently announced that Cardiff does not intend to bid to host Eurovision 2023 (as reported here), what is the procedure in this case? Is Cardiff removed from the table and map or left as is? IiTomsx (talk) 12:57, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Montenegro

Why is Montenegro not on participants list here but is on EurovisionWorld? 95.168.107.18 (talk) 07:07, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

I don't know about EurovisionWorld, but we can't add it here until we have a reliable source where their broadcaster states that they're participating. I couldn't find one with a quick Google search, but feel free to link one here below if you find it. Blue Edits (talk) 08:10, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Azerbaijan

Please, Azerbaijan should be really removed... The broadcaster just denied the withdrawal rumors. They didn't confirm participation in the contest in the UK. And we can't rely on semi reliable sources. When we have a source the broadcaster says they confirm participation in ESC 2023 then we add it.. Please.. --JeanisDL (talk) 19:30, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Update from Montenegro

Looks like there are withdrawing this year :(

Source:https://www.rtcg.me/magazin/eurosong/381679/crna-gora-naredne-godine-nece-ucestvovati-na-eurosongu.html Hellollamame (talk) 21:07, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

oop I meant 2023 Hellollamame (talk) 21:09, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

Host city bidding phase table

For the Eurovision Song Contest 2023#Host city bidding phase table, should we have the venue names show their "Eurovision" name (i.e. that without any branding, Liverpool Arena, The Hydro etc.) or should we have them show their regular names (i.e. that with branding, M&S Bank Arena, OVO Hydro etc.)? XxLuckyCxX (talk) 14:44, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

I would challenge that there is no "regular" name for the arenas listed, only commercial and non-commercial names, i.e. when there is a branding agreement, which will change from time to time depending on who has the naming rights. Having two columns would make zero sense in my opinion, since it's not adding any value to this article on behalf of the readers, as any information or context can be achieved by clicking on the individual links. I believe we should be using the names which are most supported by sources in relation to their hosting/bidding for the contest, which would then support the use of what you refer to as the "Eurovision names". Sims2aholic8 (talk) 21:39, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

I do get that, and I know "other stuff exists" apparently doesn't pass on Wikipedia (to which I have always countered "case law" and "precedent"): Eurovision Song Contest 2011 lists "Dusseldorf" rather than "Esprit" arena for that year's venue in the bidding table. Worth editing one or the other...? Spa-Franks (talk) 21:07, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Bulgaria's non-participation is unconfirmed

An unverified DM to a fan account is not valid confirmation, and BNT have said there has been no formal statement. Bulgaria should not be listed as a confirmed non-participant yet. Randombasshead (talk) 01:14, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Do we have a source for Ukraine in the final?

Whilst I absolutely expect Ukraine to be given an auto-qualy spot, the rules refer to "the host broadcaster" being given an automatic qualifying spot and not, strictly speaking, the previous year's winners. Does Ukraine being an automatic qualifier therefore need to be sourced appropriately? Spa-Franks (talk) 21:04, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

See the press release cited in the article. It explicity states that Ukraine, as the winning country of the 2022 Eurovision Song Contest, will also automatically qualify to the Grand Final of the upcoming Contest. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 21:58, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Montenegro and North Macedonia

Shouldn't these two countries be listed as withdrawing countries in the info box? 81.149.243.201 (talk) 12:17, 19 October 2022 (UTC)