Talk:Kharkiv

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Please see the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ukrainian subdivisions. Irpen 20:23, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)

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Summary of older discussions:

• Archive 2004-2009
• Archive 2010-2015

Kharkov

Surely the fact that the city is also known by its Russian name Kharkov, especially before Ukrainian independence, ought to at least be mentioned in the "Names" section, if it's too controversial to put in the lede.2601:85:C202:150:C59E:7642:AF90:3129 (talk) 13:56, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

I decided to be bold and just add it to the lede. It shouldn't be controversial that the city was known as Kharkov in most English sources until 1991. At the moment the "Battle of Kharkov" links make little sense without this information somewhere.2601:85:C202:150:1DA8:64B3:4025:3291 (talk) 17:19, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Yes, let's not stumble over ultranationalism. Russian is widely spoken and protected by the constitution of Ukraine. There is no good reason not to include a name it is widely known by.Grace Note (talk) 02:18, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

Oh, the timing of that statement blaming Ukraine for "ultranationalism"... -- DevSolar2 (talk) 07:19, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

I interpret that statement as reassuring us that we can improve the encyclopedia without letting the malign influence of, or disproportionate reaction to, extreme Russian ultranationalism and imperialism harm the results. —Michael Z. 14:57, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

Demographics

The article has been showing the following table:

Ethnic group	1897	1926	1939	1959	1989	2001
Ukrainians	25.9%	38.6%	48.5%	48.4%	50.4%	62.8%
Russians	63.2%	37.2%	32.9%	40.4%	43.6%	33.2%
Jews	5.7%	19.5%	15.6%	8.7%	3.0%	0.7%

The citations for the 2001 census data have a problem.

• "Всеукраїнський перепис населення 2001 – Результати – Основні підсумки – Загальна кількість населення – Харківська область:". 2001.ukrcensus.gov.ua. Retrieved 18 June 2017.
  This does not contain data on ethnicity. This shows population breakdown for Kharkiv Oblast by city and district of city, and by area for rural parts of the oblast. The Ukrainian-language version is more detailed that the English language version of the census page.

• "Общая информация о Харькове на vharkov". vharkov.ru. Archived from the original on 29 August 2014. Retrieved 18 June 2017. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
  This purports to have the following data for the city of Kharkiv: Демография: Национальный состав Харькова (Перепись 2002 г.) Русские: 33.2% Украинцы: 62,8% Другие национальности: 4% [Demography: National composition of Kharkov (Census of 2002) Russian: 33.2% Ukrainians: 62.8% Other nationalities: 4%]

There is a page from the Ukrainian census of 2001 that has data for Kharkiv Oblast (i.e. not just Kharkiv but other towns and rural areas).(Eng) (Ukr) This gives data for 1989 and 2001:
1989 Kharkiv Oblast

• Ukrainians 62.8%
• Russians 33.2%
• Belarusians 0.7%
• Jews 1.5%

2001 Kharkiv Oblast

• Ukrainians 70.7%
• Russians 25.6%
• Belarusians 0.5%
• Jews 0.4%

Your will notice that the figures from the vharkov.ru website are exactly the same for Ukrainians and Russians as the data for 1989 for Kharkiv Oblast stated in the 2001 census documents.-- Toddy1 (talk) 14:47, 4 September 2018‎ (UTC)

Languages

If I recall correctly an earlier version of this article had language statistics for Kharkiv, but I can’t seem to find them in the article anymore.  Can anyone knowledgeable about the demographics of Kharkiv provide statistics on the percentage of residents who speak Ukrainian versus Russian versus both?  For example, I would assume that the percentage of Kharkivites who speak Ukrainian at home would be lower than in more western cities such as Lviv and Kyiv, but higher than, say, in Donetsk or Luhansk, but IMHO it would be informative to have more quantititative statistics.  Thanks so much in advance  —PowerPCG5 (talk) 05:43, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Twin towns – sister cities

Russian cities were officially excluded from this list, see https://suspilne.media/238139-harkiv-rozirvav-pobratimski-vidnosini-z-rosijskimi-mistami/ (media) and https://www.city.kharkov.ua/uk/news/-50716.html (official source)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:33, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

People

Add Isabelle "REZZ" Rezazadeh to the 'People' section of the page. She is a Ukrainian-born (Kharkiv), Canadian-raised DJ of note who is immensely popular in the U.S. and Canada as well as the rest of the world. I feel she would be a great addition as she is relevant to the culture today (her sales figures and being placed highly [headlining] in music festival lineups). Linking her would not only reflect her status as a popular musician, but I believe would attract more people from all over to reflexively click on the link to 'Kharkiv' (and vice versa), drawing greater attention to a city at the center of a globally affected geopolitical situation. Drewski bt (talk) 01:56, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rezz Drewski bt (talk) 01:57, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 July 2022

change Kharkiv (Ukrainian: Ха́рків, IPA: [ˈxɑrkiu̯] (listen)), also known as Kharkov (Russian: Харькoв, IPA: [ˈxarʲkəf]), to Kharkiv (Ukrainian: Ха́рків, IPA: [ˈxɑrkiu̯] (listen)),

it's a Ukrainian city and the official language is Ukrainian as well, no need for russian translation Snoopyrapidw (talk) 14:20, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:31, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

What the hell option: "russian: Kharkov"???

DELETE THIS! In Ukraine we have only one state language: Ukrainian. Kharkiv: Ukrainian city, and must have only one transcription: Ukrainian: Kharkiv. 151.34.205.147 (talk) 11:19, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

Do the same thing with other UKRAINIAN cities. REMOVE russian transcription! Natalkadoncovka (talk) 12:53, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

We seem to be under a bot attack, yet again. Ymblanter (talk) 15:22, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

This suggestion is consistent with the official policy MOS:LEADLANG. There’s no any reason to oppose the removal of the russian name unless you are trying to promote a pro-russian POV. -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 09:19, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Why russian transcription in Ukrainian city?

Only one state language in Ukraine and it is ukrainian. How did russian end up here?

Remove this. Bob Travokyr (talk) 13:23, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

MOS:LEADLANG does give guidance that “a single foreign language equivalent name can be included in the lead sentence,” and “do not include foreign equivalents in the text of the lead sentence for alternative names.” The Russian transcription can be moved to the discussion of naming in the “History” section. —Michael Z. 14:45, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

This is not the first time you raise this issue, however, the current practice is to add Russian name to predominantly Russian-speaking localities. We have discussed this many times before. If you want to challenge the current consensus, please open an RfC and advertise it broadly enough. Ymblanter (talk) 15:18, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

Yes, you have claimed that this is current practice, although I haven’t seen evidence, suspect this is only the case for a few random localities, and have seen no criteria for identifying “predominantly Russian-speaking” localities. If it is the case, please find consensus to update the MOS or WP:UAPLACE. Until then, there will continue to be confusion and disagreements.

In the meantime, we should determine consensus for this article here.

I see no reason to diverge from current practice, as documented in the guideline, in this article. Kharkov is a common spelling in older material, so it belongs in the lead. But the rationale in the guideline applies to the native Russian name and pronunciation, Russian: Харькoв, IPA: [ˈxarʲkəf]: “Do not include foreign equivalents in the text of the lead sentence for alternative names or for particularly lengthy names, as this clutters the lead sentence and impairs readability. Do not include foreign equivalents in the lead sentence just to show etymology.” This secondary foreign naming information belongs in the body of the article, perhaps alongside Yiddish as well. —Michael Z. 19:37, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

The Russian spelling has been in the lede of the article since 2004. This is a de-facto consensus. To change it, you would need a RfC. This is WP:CONSENSUS. Concerning "random localities", it is clear that you have not made any research. Ymblanter (talk) 20:08, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

Yes, two foreign spellings were added to the lead in 2004, when the first bold name was Kharkov and word count was less than 200,[1] Russian pronunciation added in 2012,[2] but the guideline was established in 2014.[3] Things change. This article wasn’t updated to meet the community’s consensus. I think it may be time for a community discussion about content in the lead in articles about Ukrainian places, to gauge consensus. —Michael Z. 23:04, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

Btw the topic starter has only one edit. This is either a bot or a human sent here by a social media campaign, similarly to the starters of the two topics above.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:09, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 November 2022

Remove the russian name per MOS:LEADLANG. I tried this, but my edits kept get reverted without any policy-based explanation. -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 08:22, 16 November 2022 (UTC) 🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 08:22, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

The user has been already warned and, when I have time, I will nominate them for arbitration enforcement topic ban from Ukrainian topics. Ymblanter (talk) 08:28, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

A topic ban for what? For leaving messages in talk pages? This is a ridiculous reason. -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 08:31, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

You have given alert about discretionary sanctions, but your behavior in the topic area remains disruptive, and your edits in multiple articles were reverted by many users. Which did not prompt you to change the behaviour. This means arbitration enforcement is needed to stop this. Ymblanter (talk) 08:43, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

And then you will say that you are not promoting a pro russian POV. -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 08:44, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

You don’t agree with a 100% policy based argument like this one. -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 08:45, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Also the “discretionary sanctions” were given by a non-admin, and the warning for vandalism is nonsensical because my edits are WP:NOTV. -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 09:20, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

• I'm removing the edit request flag as there appears to be no consensus for this change. Please continue discussing and only post an edit request when there is consensus. --Mvqr (talk) 11:57, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

• @Mvqr:, I’m sorry, but this is ridiculous. I have cited a policy page, which the article in its current state violates. Why is consensus needed to follow Wikipedia’s policy? -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 14:31, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

  Slava Ukraini Heroyam Slava 123}, Wikipedia:Consensus is policy, it is the way to solve disagreements here. --Mvqr (talk) 15:34, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

• @Mvqr:, what do you mean? Decision making and reaching consensus involve an effort to incorporate all editors' legitimate concerns, while respecting Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. The guidelines say to write the name of a city in only one foreign language. -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 16:03, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

There is also MOS:LEADALT. Mellk (talk) 17:56, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 25 December 2022

Hiya, You might want to remove Moscow as a sister city 😅. 31.161.144.192 (talk) 22:02, 25 December 2022 (UTC)