Talk:SpaceX Starship

Is it fully reusable?

In the Header is written „it is fully reusable“. As of right now it is not. It is INTENDET to be fully reusable. 2A02:1210:8ACF:FB00:1CF4:C3DB:DF64:4C6A (talk) 08:50, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

You are right. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 04:53, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

"intendet" really? are all fans of this project Ralph Wiggums? 2A01:CB0C:CD:D800:3112:9AB7:34AE:ADE1 (talk) 14:09, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

As of now (April 4th 2023 ~ A week from launch) The flight with change all of the the tenses, also note, this WILL be FULLY REUSABLE, if you've seen the SN15 launch flight, they WILL be doing a fully reusable launch with the second stage (SN24) landing near Hawaii *fact check*. Anyways, I wish the editors luck with changing all the tenses to "has" or "launched" overall info seams accurate. 104.48.56.111 (talk) 21:38, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

This is incorrect. The system under development is to be fully reusable. Certain test launches will be deliberately landed in the ocean expended as part of the tests. An "expendable" booster is not landed with its engines and an expended second stage is left in space. Separately, expendable variants MAY be developed, but not initially. This is stated in the Teslarati reference. The expendable version will be developed only if there is customer demand for payloads that exceed the capability of the fully-reusable version. -Arch dude (talk) 03:13, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

I agree with Arch dude, the test campaign will include water landings and future upper stage versions may be designed without reuse provisions, that doesn't change the fact that the intention for the program is full rapid reusability. Scottd521 (talk) 15:59, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

Masses appear incorrect

Wikipedia's presentation of "mass" (in the right margin table) appears erroneous, listing: 10,000,000 lbm total "mass"... while the propellant alone (i.e., neglecting hardware) adds up to more than 10,000,000 lbm (i.e., listed as 7.5M lbm + 2.65M lbm)... leaving the hardware to weigh a "negative" 150,000 lbm. 97.101.194.114 (talk) 13:42, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

You're correct. Fixed that to 11 million pounds. CactiStaccingCrane 03:37, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

Reusable

User:Zae8, you keep reverting my changes by claiming that the Starship is not only "planned" or "designed" to be full reusable, but "is" reusable. Do you have a reference for that? The only reference I see is the Space X advertisement website, which I would not consider being a reliable source, and I think Wikipedia should not just blindly copy-paste marketing claims. More in general, the statement that it is "planned" to be reusable is obviously a precise and correct description, so what problem do you have with that? Zae8 (talk) 12:50, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

@Zae8: by this reasoning, it is not yet a super-heavy launch vehicle, or even a launch vehicle at all, since it has not launched. The wording "in development" covers all of this. It's not just "planned". "Planned" has the connotation that no real hardware work has yet been done. "In development" is therefore more precise in this context. This is a matter of editorial judgement, and we should try to arrive at a consensus instead of just complaining at each other. Please note that this is far more than just SpaceX advertisement. We can actually see that SpaceX has installed TPS tiles on the Starship, that they have successfully undertaken a landing from a height of several kilometers, and they have spent a whole lot of money on their crazy chopsticks system. -Arch dude (talk) 18:08, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

@Arch: Sorry, I didn't want to complain about you.

Well, WP:CRYSTALBALL "Wikipedia does not predict the future.". See "Biden is serving a second term" versus "Biden is planning to serve a second term". Which is correct and which is not correct?

What I don't understand is why you object to describing something as "planned" which obviously is not accomplish yet, but, well, "planned". Using that wording is obviously absolutely correct and on spot. So why do you revert that? Zae8 (talk) 18:49, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

@Zae8: This is a nuance of the usage of the word "planned" in the English language. "Planned" usually implies that no concrete actions have yet been taken. You "plan" an event. By contrast, "in development" implies that substantial activity is underway, and is therefore a better choice of wording here. The sentence does not predict the future, because the system really is in development and a very large amount of development has taken place. "In development" also means quite clearly that development is not complete yet. Your opinion is that "planned" is more precise, and my opinion is that "in development" is more precise. I am willing to wait for a third opinion. -Arch dude (talk) 19:30, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

You are right, describing it as a "[system with x properties] in development" is the best approach. We do the same with other rockets, too. "The Space Launch System [...] is an American super heavy-lift expendable launch vehicle under development" (before it launched), "Vulcan Centaur is a two-stage-to-orbit, heavy-lift launch vehicle that is under development", "The H3 Launch Vehicle is an expendable launch system in development", ... We don't write that H3 is "planned to be expendable" or Vulcan Centaur is "planned to be a two-stage-to-orbit rocket" because that would be ridiculous, and we should avoid equally awkward expressions here. --mfb (talk) 03:25, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

Well, I think WP:CRYSTALBALL is quite clear about this. The H3 is not only "planned to be expendable", but expendable and a two-stage-to-orbit right now, so yes, it would be "ridiculous" to describe something as planned if it is already reality. And Biden is serving his first term, so it would be "ridiculous" to say that he is only "planning to serve a first term".

But what you are basically saying is that as soon as Biden's reelection is "in develoment", then it is not only ok to say "Biden is serving is second term", but it is forbidden to say "Biden is planning to serve a second term", because it is "ridiculous" and an "awkward expression". Or in the Space Launch System article we should replace "is designed to launch the crewed Orion spacecraft on a trans-lunar trajectory" by "launches the crewed Orion spacecraft on a trans-lunar trajectory", because the current wording is "ridiculous" and an "awkward expression". And thousands of more examples in Wikipedia.

This goes beyond my understanding of reality and logic, I give up. Zae8 (talk) 10:34, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

Starship is reusable in the same way as H3 is expendable. Both are systems in development to have these properties. Your comparison to Biden never made sense. You keep rephrasing it without any success. --mfb (talk) 11:06, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

Let's improve this article!

Launch of the Starship is imminent and we want the article to be as polished and high quality as possible. Let's fix the article! CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 11:01, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. I've gotten complaints about this article before. The image for starship (labeled as 24/7 wdr) is an image of b4/s20, as an example Redacted II (talk) 13:39, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

“Commercial and defense” section does not have much on defense

The title should perhaps be changed or section split. As I understand it all the defence work is commercial (ie paid for) except for the Ukraine Starlink which is free. Also perhaps more could be said on defense - for example I understand this makes Starlink technically unshootdownable because the satellites can so easily be replaced. But if Oneweb sats are launched by this rocket does that mean Taiwan won’t use them because China could just threaten to expel Tesla in future? Chidgk1 (talk) 15:32, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Maybe the best option would be to just remove "and defense" from the section title. Redacted II (talk) 19:49, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Outer planets?

So is the idea that it would go direct by burning lots of fuel, rather than slowly by slingshots like JUICE? If so I cannot find a cite Chidgk1 (talk) 15:56, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

I have no idea. Probably just refueliing in LEO Redacted II (talk) 19:42, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Future Flights

Starship is soon to fly for the first time. However, this site has no section dedicated to the next prototype flights. Maybe that should be added? Redacted II (talk) 19:48, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Success or Failure 20-Apr-2023

Did the rocket launch attain all it's goals? No

Did Starship succeed? Maybe

Per https://cnn.com/cnn/2023/04/20/world/spacex-starship-launch-thursday-scn/index.html

"Although it ended in an explosion, Thursday's test met several of the company's objectives for the vehicle.

..."Clearing the launchpad was a major milestone for Starship."

My 2¢ is to call it a partial success. What do others think? Idontno2 (talk) 22:28, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

I think calling it a failure is ignoring what the intentions of launch was. However it definitely wasn’t a complete success. Are we allowed to make a partial success category though? Bugsiesegal (talk) 22:32, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

"Partial failure" was used by Boeing and NASA for the Boeing Starliner OFT-1 flight. I think that anyone who really cares will look more deeply than the labe we give it and learn about what actually happened. -Arch dude (talk) 22:38, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

Completely reasonable. Though this page might influence the public’s views on the safety of starship in the future. Bugsiesegal (talk) 22:41, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

Regardless of the companies "intentions," acrossed spaceflight Wikipedia pages, we treat all orbital flights the same, be them test flights of new rockets or the 1200 flight of a Soyuz. Doing so would break the consensus and consistence developed acrossed spaceflight Wikipedia. This is simply the nature of iterative design, you will fail. this was an orbital launch attempts, it was destroyed at 39 km. It's not close to a success in the way every other Wikipedia article about launch vehicles are done. This argument comes up many times a new rocket fails during launch, and people can't bring themselves to be unbiased and continue with consensus and precedent. Should we reconsider the first flights of the N1 rocket because they too were developmental test flights? Was Falcon 1 Flight 1 a partial success? This test is not partial, that not how we catalogue launches here. If an operational starship mission did the same, would it still be considered partial, even if it was crewed? If this test really is partial, then I expect the same people to push for changing N1 to partial as well. Otherwise it's clear that there's a deviation from precedent and consensus. And we gain nothing from changing definitions page by page. If this is the bar, it's essentially impossible for Starship to "fail". This sets the success criteria for Starship on this page going forward. So it needs to be consistent. Test flight's don't get special success categories, if this flight was carrying satellites to orbit, it would be nowhere near a partial. Jrcraft Yt (talk) 22:54, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

But it wasn’t carrying satellites. And hey if you want to change N1 to a partial success go for it. That rocket was cool. Bugsiesegal (talk) 23:09, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

I'm not going to change it because that's not objective and not inline with Wikipedia spaceflight consensus. Anything to hide the word failure from a SpaceX page.Jrcraft Yt (talk) 23:21, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

This is a test vehicle, does wikipedia have the list of F9s that were lost in developing that vehicle too? No, so why is it here?

108.14.243.103 (talk) 00:32, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Maybe it should. 2603:8000:C200:C412:7D2F:BD9C:70C7:F6C2 (talk) 05:26, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Exactly. I agree 100%. I'm the user who cited the ArsTechnica link to verify that this flight was a failure (https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/04/so-what-was-that-was-starships-launch-a-failure-or-a-success/) and I cited it specifically because it states that the mission is failure by the original standards of successful separation, orbital flight, and successful landing. All orbital flights are treated the same by Wikipedia and this flight is no different. It's a failure. It's only "successful" in the limited sense of lifting off, but even that is only a partial success at best because it apparently damaged several engines in the process and experienced unscheduled engine-outs and thrust oscillation. The ArsTechnica article addresses the people wanting to talk about what went right while definitively stating this flight is still a failure because it was intended to be orbital. Full Shunyata (talk) 00:34, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

You cited an article that explicitly describes the event as both a success and a failure, but you then chose to unilaterally declare it is a failure. The entire point of the article, including its title, is that it can be viewed as both. The author, Eric Berger, is IMO a thoughtful journalist with a pro-space bias leaning slightly toward a SpaceX bias, but you should not unilaterally re-interpret the article. I think we need to explain both sides to our readers. This is similar to the situation when sources disagree, but it's in one source. -Arch dude (talk) 01:46, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

I can choose a different article that's more suitable and leaves no ambiguity. One that would be more appropriate for a citation as a failure. Full Shunyata (talk) 03:49, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

And if you did that, you would be demonstrating that you are not a neutral editor, but instead are pushing your own POV. When there is a disagreement in the press, we are supposed to describe both sides. -Arch dude (talk) 13:16, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia has consistent rules about classifying orbital launches, which this flight expressly was. If there is a reason this particular flight should be given a special exemption from Wikipedia's rules about orbital launches then it should be specified. There's nothing to disagree about when it comes to Wikipedia's rules. Someone would need to prove that this flight was not intended to be orbital in order to exempt this flight from being listed as a failure. Full Shunyata (talk) 17:55, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

According to other Wikipedia articles, the launch was a partial failure. So, in order to be consistent, it should be labeled a "partial failure" Redacted II (talk) 19:43, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, no. "Wikipedia" has no such rules. The highest level of "rule" is a formal policy, and there are only about 8 of them. You are referring instead to a set of conventions agreed on collaboratively by a set of editors interested in space-related articles (and which I generally agree with). However, the policies override these conventions, and one of the policies is that we must use reliable sources and that we must report on both sides when there reliable sources conflict. The flight was a failure, and it was a success. -Arch dude (talk) 21:17, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Good point. But to me a key consideration is this wasn't planned to be an orbital flight.

https://www.space.com/spacex-starship-first-space-launch

"The flight plan today called for... (a) planned partial trip around our planet... ending with a hard splashdown in the Pacific Ocean not far from the Hawaiian island of Kauai about 90 minutes after liftoff."

So I guess the question I have is do we treat sub-orbital flights the same as orbital?

I totally agree that we should be consistent across all wiki's. But sometimes it's a real head scratcher on whether we should look at what might have been, vs what the key objectives of the launch were. Idontno2 (talk) 01:25, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

I suggest adding a footnote to the failure entry for clarification and to reduce back & forth changes. -Fnlayson (talk) 01:58, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

This was intended as an orbital flight, specifically a Transatmospheric Earth Orbit (TAO). Perigee was intended to be around 50 km, with apogee of 250 km. That is a type of orbit. An EFN footnote could be added. That would still make it consistent. I mean, if the bar for success or partial success of the first orbital launch attempt of a new rocket is just lift off from the pad, every single launch no matter the outcome would be at least partially successful. ABl's RS-1 was a failure, Rocket 3 F1 was a failure, Zhuque-2 was a failure, Japan's H3 was a failure. LauncherOne's F1 was a failure. Those aren't debated, and they're just as much a test launch with the explicit intent of reaching orbit as this Starship orbital launch attempt was.Jrcraft Yt (talk) 02:07, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Yeah. As a SpaceX project to generate engineering data, it succeeded. As a launch, it failed, unambiguously. Compare with the Energia/Polyus launch (which has also tri-stated on Wiki between failure/success/mixture), which successfully tested the booster, but failed to launch the satellite. Tarl N. (discuss) 02:13, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Indeed. It can be a success as a step in the overall development program but in terms of reaching its main test objectives, it failed. – Jadebenn (talk · contribs · subpages) 23:02, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

I think we should avoid including this distinction. The current text succinctly explains what happened in the test and its objectives. 66.65.55.221 (talk) 03:09, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

This well-sourced Reuters article refers to the launch as a "successful failure", and reiterates that this is part of the company's testing strategy, so labelling the infobox possibly as a partial success or partial failure, or adding a note giving more context. LordDainIronfoot (talk) 13:45, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

I have a compromise idea: Label this as a "prototype failure". Not a partial failure, nor a complete failure. I know it breaks Wikipedia standard, but it labels the launch about as accurately as possible. Redacted II (talk) 18:34, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

IMO we're here to provide information, not a wikipedian-selected value-laden characterization on something which is not clearly either. How about just put statements (with attribution) by SpaceX and an independent expert or two? Sincerely,. North8000 (talk) 18:43, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

But Musk himself gave it about a 50/50 chance of attaining orbit. There is a big difference between a standard expected full success, like an atlas launch or spacex space station supply mission, and a test flight where it is unknown how far it could fly. They learned some things and then had to hit the self-destruct button on this prototype. Apollo 13 was a successful failure and it was fully expected to go well. Prototypes are a different entity. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:43, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Considering this was a test launch, I feel it should be considered a partial success/failure in the Infobox since it launched and got near 1st [stage] separation. -Fnlayson (talk) 16:30, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

That's fine, if you want to set the bar this low, go ahead. There is no partial failure entry for an orbital launch attempt for a rocket on Wikipedia that didn't at least reach some sort of orbit. And that because "partial failure" implies most of the launch was successful, which is not true. It lifted off, causing major damage to it's launch pad, reached a sub-nominal max-Q and then blew up, not even halfway to space, and without accomplishing the majority of it's pre defined objectives. If getting this far for an orbital launch is success. Why was the case not made for Firefly's Alpha rocket's first flight being a partial failure (mostly successful) rather than a failure? Astra's rocket 3 launching Tropics must have been incredibly successful then. The Proton-M that flew upside down was still partial because it didn't destroy the launch pad. The bar has been set so that now if a company claims the probability of success is now, it's impossible to fail. This rocket could have blown up 5 seconds after launch, and this argument would still be made. It's irrelevant if they're test flights because that's the nature of test flight, they fail sometimes. And pretending they don't is incredibly disingenuous. If what happened during this previous orbital launch occurs during a cargo, tanker, or crewed flight. I fully expect them to also be labeled as at least partial success, you can't have both. Because if that's the bar you want, be prepared to stick with it. The amount of bias in this article and talk section is unbelievable, and most of the reasoning comes directly from SpaceX saying it may not be successful, and using them as the primary reason for this is a violation of Wikipedia:Independent sources. Not to mention the egregious violations of Wikipedia:Neutral point of view considering this was not a conversation even considered for launches of Firefly Alpha, Rocket 1, Rocket 2, Rocket 3. H-III, ZQ-2, ZQ-2, SS-520, Electron, LauncherOne, Nuri, N1, RS1, CZ-7A, etc. And most of those got further than this orbital launch attempt did. This argument did happen for Terran-1 and the outcome is as you'd expect from a non-bias and impartial editor (it failed). Musk also said the odds of the first Falcon Heavy were 50/50. That doesn't mean it can't fail. If Musk gave this orbital launch attempt 50/50 odds. It's exceptionably clear what side of the "50" it landed on. Bvbv13 (talk) 19:45, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

• Thank you. Fine points but stating them sooner could have forestalled or shorten this discussion. -Fnlayson (talk) 21:13, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

The main goal of this flight was to clear the tower. Everything else was secondary. So, since it succeeded in that goal, before failing, it can be at least considered a partial failure. All of your other examples failed launches had more ambitious goals then "make it off the pad". Therefore, they're completely irrelevant on the matter of "Did starship fail, partially fail, or succeed?". Redacted II (talk) 21:51, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Considering the vehicle is grounded by the FAA pending a mishap investigation (https://www.cnbc.com/2023/04/24/spacex-starship-explosion-spread-particulate-matter-for-miles.html) and that every other maiden launch that has failed to reach its main test objectives on Wikipedia has been categorized as a "failure" I don't see how any consistent argument can be made to classify Starship differently. – Jadebenn (talk · contribs · subpages) 22:59, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Because those other test flights had more ambitious goals. This didn't have a payload. The primary goal was to clear the tower. It cleared the tower. Therefore, since it failed at the secondary goal (reach orbit), it can only be called a partial failure. Calling it a failure would be misleading. Redacted II (talk) 23:02, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Calling it a "partial failure" would be far more misleading because it implies the vehicle successfully completed the majority of the test objectives set out before launch. It did not.

As user:Jrcraft Yt brings up, Wikipedia has a fairly consistent usage of the term across many articles and what you are proposing is not at all consistent with how the term is defined elsewhere. – Jadebenn (talk · contribs · subpages) 23:06, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Think about the definition of "partial failure". Part of the launch was successful. Part of it was a failure. They achieved some goals. They failed in others. This is quite literally a perfect case of partial failure. They cleared the tower (primary goal). They failed to reach orbit (secondary goal). Every single knowledgeable source (like SpaceX, the DearMoon astronauts, and Jared Isaacman, a Polaris III astronaut) is calling it a successful test flight. So the label "failure" shouldn't even be an option Redacted II (talk) 23:14, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

According to CNBC, Starship is currently grounded pending an FAA mishap investigation. There's a difference between saying "it contributed meaningfully and successfully to the overall vehicle development campaign" and "the flight was a success." – Jadebenn (talk · contribs · subpages) 23:21, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Read the test goals. I don't know how many times I have to explain that. Redacted II (talk) 23:24, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Read user:Jrcraft Yt's reply. – Jadebenn (talk · contribs · subpages) 23:40, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Read the test goals.

PRIMARY: Clear the tower. Result: SUCCESS

SECONDARY: Reach orbit. Result: FAILURE Redacted II (talk) 23:42, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

@Fnlayson, Jrcraft Yt, CtrlDPredator, Bvbv13, and Full Shunyata: Just wanted to let you all know that Redacted II has deemed you all as having "abandoned" this discussion and believes this gives them the right to unilaterally edit the launch status in the infobar and edit war with anyone who attempts to change it. They have reverted me twice now for attempting to return it to the status quo.

Do you all agree there is a "consensus" to change the page status the way they have? – Jadebenn (talk · contribs · subpages) 00:09, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

That's misleading. The one whose been doing an edit war is Jadebenn. I have been reverting their edits BECAUSE it violates the status quo, which is "partial failure". Redacted II (talk) 00:15, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

You've done a lot more than revert just my edits. – Jadebenn (talk · contribs · subpages) 01:04, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

I've also reverted others edits, when they change it to "failure" Redacted II (talk) 11:11, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes, you have actually violated WP:3RR in doing so. – Jadebenn (talk · contribs · subpages) 14:58, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Yeah no. let's be clear here, simply lifting off was not the be all end all goal here. The stated goals for this flight, as explicitly laid out by SpaceX were:

Planned mission timeline

Time	Event	April 20
00:00:00	Liftoff	Success, damaged pad and vehicle
00:00:55	Max q (moment of peak mechanical stress on the rocket)	Success, but sub-nominal
00:02:49	Main engine cutoff (MECO)	Failure
00:02:52	Stage separation	Failure
00:02:57	Starship ignition	Failure
00:03:11	Booster boost backburn startup	Failure
00:04:06	Booster boost backburn shutdown	Failure
00:07:32	Booster is transonic	Failure
00:07:40	Booster landing burn startup	Failure
00:08:03	Booster splashdown	Failure
00:09:20	Starship engine cutoff (SECO)	Failure
01:17:21	Starship atmospheric re-entry interface	Failure
01:28:43	Starship is transonic	Failure
01:30:00	Starship Pacific impact	Failure

The vast majority of the stated test objectives failed, as they were precluded by the rocket being terminated in flight. resulting in complete vehicle failure. I think many of the people here don't understand what the term "partial failure" means. It implies that the majority of the objectives were successful, with only a smaller portion of them failing. The vast majority of the explicitly stated goals failed completely. So even the use of the term partial failure is objectively wrong. Out of these 14 explicit objectives for this orbital flight, 2 were completed, both with issue. That amounts to, at most 14% of the objectives being completed, though not without issues of their own. There's no possible way to spin that to say that the majority of the objectives were completed successfully as the term "partial failure" implies. You're going to need a new term when 86% of the stated goals fail, and the rocket ends up being terminated by the ROS, and that word is failure. The launches stated above were launched under similar probability's of success (LauncherOne, Rocket 3, etc). With those companies stating that they did not expect orbit to be achieved. In Astra's page for rockets 1 & 2, the outcome is listed as "Failure (Astra declared success)" because both vehicles failed and were completely destroyed. Please, somebody here find a single example where a non successful madden orbital launch attempt of a rocket is classified as partial failure rather than failure. Every single orbital launch classified as partially successful on Wikipedia, as a minimum, reached some sort of orbit. And even then, not all that did are classified as partial because their orbits were too out of specification to result in any amount of success. Take SSLV D1. It's first launch reached a TAO (the same Earth orbit that this flight was targeting) and is classed as a failure because it's satellites were destroyed. SSLV D1 was just as much a test flight as this one was, and it actually reached an orbit (356 x 76) km. I said this before, but some editors will be as disingenuous as possible in order to prevent the word "Failure" on a SpaceX page. Almost all of the arguments against this all fall into this category. Jrcraft Yt (talk) 00:04, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

Let me provide some examples of actual partial failures for orbital launches, including some test flights:

Firefly Alpha flight 2, deployed payloads in too low an orbit.

Ariane 5 VA-241, Satellites reached orbit, but with substantial inclination deviations from what was intended.

Ariane 5 VA-142, Satellites delivered to a MEO rather than a GTO, one satellite was recovered, one could not be salvaged.

Angara A5/Persei F1, a test flight in which the Persei upper stage failed during the second engine burn, stranding the dummy payload in LEO.

Atlas V AV-009, Centaur shut down too early, deploying the satellite in a suboptimal orbit.

Long March 3B/E, satellites were deployed into a lower than intended orbit because of a third stage attitude control anomaly.

Soyuz-2.1a/Fregat, satellites deployed into wrong orbit due to issues with the Fregat upper stage.

Proton-m/Briz-M 935-34, Briz-M shut down 4 minutes too early due to engine damage. Satellites deployed into an incorrect orbit.

Falcon 9 flight 4, single engine failure on stage 1, resulting in the secondary payloads being deployed into a near useless orbit and subsequently lost after a short time.

Delta IV Heavy Flight 1, a test flight where both side boosters shut down 8 seconds too early, and the core stage shut down 9 seconds too early. The DCSS was unable to compensate fully and the satellites were deployed into a rapidly decaying orbit.

Notice how they all reached orbit, and the vast majority of flight objectives were completed with success. Jrcraft Yt (talk) 00:25, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

And now, for some of the outcomes for maiden, test flights of new orbital rockets:

H3, second stage did not ignite. Vehicle later terminated by range, did not reach orbit. Failure

Electron, telemetry was lost and the RSO destroyed the rocket during second stage burn. Failure

Rocket 3, Failed during first stage burn, deviated from trajectory and destroyed by RSO. Failure

Terran-1, second stage failed to start. Failure

Launcher One, LOX line rupture, starving engine of oxidizer. Failure.

Firefly Alpha F1: Engine failure 15 seconds after launch, lost control authority at ~T+2:30, activating FTS and destroying the vehicle (remind you of anything?). Failure

Ariane 5 V88/501, first launch of Ariane 5, decided it was 90 degrees off course, deviating from trajectory and subsequently destroyed by RSO. Failure

Zhuque-2, Vernier engines failed, precluding any chance of reaching orbit. Failure

Zhuque-1, Attitude control failure on stage 3, failed to reach orbit. Failure

Soviet N1, started to drop engines shortly after liftoff, causing a fire in the first stage, all engines shut off at T+68 seconds. Failure

Falcon 1, Engine failure at T+33 seconds, vehicle destroyed. Failure

Proton-K, flew off course and exploded shortly after launch. Failure

Long March 7A, lost pressure in a side booster just before MECO. Failure

Zenit-3SL, failed to reach orbit due to a guidance problem. Failure

ABL RS1, all engines shut down shortly after liftoff. Failure

Every single rocket that failed to reach orbit during it's inaugural test flight to orbit is considered a failure, despite chances of success being low, and intent to fly as long as possible. And most of these flew lar longer, higher, and accomplished more test objectives than this first orbital launch attempts of Starship. It's obvious here. Unsurprisingly, test flight fail often, pretending they don't which is what's going on here is nonsense. Accept when failure happens, be objective, that's how we edit. Jrcraft Yt (talk) 00:44, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

Every single one of your examples had the goal of reaching orbit. This one had the PRIMARY goal of getting off the pad, with the SECONDARY goal being orbit. Since the primary goal was achieved, but not the secondary, it must be classified as a partial failure. Redacted II (talk) 10:35, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

It was planned to exit the atmosphere and become sub-orbital. It didn't even get close to that. If we are being consistent then this is a failed launch, and there isn't anything wrong with that. Other SpaceX launches have failed. CtrlDPredator (talk) 12:44, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

The primary goal was to get off the pad. It succeeded in that. So, partial failure is the right classification. Redacted II (talk) 13:36, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

That is inconsistent with other launches, as has been pointed out by several others here. CtrlDPredator (talk) 02:04, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

That's not true. For example, LauncherOne's first flight had expectations set by the company as "That moment of ignition of the NewtonThree, I would say, is the key moment in this flight,” Pomerantz said. “We’ll keep going as long as we can after that, potentially all the way to orbit, but we’re really excited about the data and about the moment of ignition and as far as we can get after that." Still a Failure

For rocket 3, "For this flight, our first orbital attempt, our primary objective is to achieve a nominal first stage burn. If we make it this far, we’ll be happy with our progress and be well on our way to reaching orbit within 3 flights. The more we accomplish, the more we learn, and the closer we are to reaching orbit." Failure

Terran 1, "Getting through Max-Q was a major goal for this launch to demonstrate the integrity of the rocket’s 3D-printed structure" Failure

The goals are clearly laid out by SpaceX, so enough with the "anything after liftoff is icing on the cake" because that's not an argument. All of these examples are objective and deal with the facts. Which is not what's happening here. It's irrelevant what the companies expectations were. This was an orbital launch attempt, and a test flight. It failed. We've delt with such things on Wikipedia countless times. Wikipedia is intended to be free of personal bias and misleading information.

Also, Wikipedia's talk page guidelines give at least a week before closing, which has not happened Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines. So the article should return to the previous state before this discussion was started. Which was failure in the sidebar. Jrcraft Yt (talk) 18:37, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

Please see Wikipedia:Closing discussions, this article should be returned to the previous status quo. Jrcraft Yt (talk) 18:45, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

According to WP:Consensus, a consensus does not need unanimous approval. So far I have seen the vast majority of posts in the talk section of this page supporting the label of "partial failure". Therefore, it is safe to assume that there is a consensus. Redacted II (talk) 00:19, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

I don't know how you can claim there is at all a consensus for "partial failure" in this discussion. – Jadebenn (talk · contribs · subpages) 22:49, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Read WP:Consensus. Because the majority are in approval of "partial failure". It doesn't have to be unanimous.

There are five for "failure", including you.

There are six for "partial failure", including me.

Six>five. Redacted II (talk) 23:06, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Please review WP:NOTDEMOCRACY. – Jadebenn (talk · contribs · subpages) 23:08, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Remember, a consensus does not need unanimous approval. Given that the majority seem to be in support, and that the majority of EVIDENCE is in support, it can be assumed.

Right now, the ONLY people continuing this topic are you and me. This is a settled matter. Continuing this argument only weakens the article, and the entirety of Wikipedia as well. Redacted II (talk) 23:20, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

What weakens Wikipedia is trying to prematurely close contentious discussions with slim majorities in contravention of community guidelines. – Jadebenn (talk · contribs · subpages) 23:23, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

When no-one is arguing for a side but you, and everyone else has moved on, then your weakening Wikipedia. This has been settled. Redacted II (talk) 23:27, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Please review WP:THEREISNORUSH. There are dissenting comments made today, and the discussion has been active for less than a week. There is no consensus for a change to "partial failure" and therefore no justification for a unilateral change. – Jadebenn (talk · contribs · subpages) 23:30, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

There would be no change to "partial failure". It's already "partial failure". But that's irrelevant.

When the discussion has ended, consensus can be assumed. Everyone (with one exception) has accepted the results, and moved on. Redacted II (talk) 23:32, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Really? Because I see quite a few people who posted over the past few days saying that they disagree. Have you asked them if they've changed their minds? Or are you simply assuming it because that's convenient to your point of view?

I realize you're a new user to this site, but you need to understand that this behavior is not conducive to productive discussion. – Jadebenn (talk · contribs · subpages) 23:44, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Just because you've been editing for longer than me doesn't affect the validity of my argument. The discussion was abandoned by everyone else. So, unless someone (other than the two of us) revived this discussion, it's safe to assume that this is over. Redacted II (talk) 23:48, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Less than 24 hours elapsed does not an "abandonment" make. – Jadebenn (talk · contribs · subpages) 23:53, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

At the time they left, the current status of the page was "partial failure". Until the consensus changes, "partial failure" it will remain.

This entire discussion between us is just wasting space in the talk page. How about we wait a week? After all, WP:THEREISNORUSH. Redacted II (talk) 23:55, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia policy is to uphold the status quo until a new consensus is reached. Your edit warring is extremely tendentious. – Jadebenn (talk · contribs · subpages) 23:58, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Who's changing the status quo here? Before you edited, it was "partial failure". After, "failure". Disturbing the status quo. And how is the label "partial failure" tendentious, when it's the majority view?

So, follow your own advice. Stop the edit war by not changing the status until (and only until) a new consensus is reached.

I also think that my idea of waiting a week for others to begin discussion is fair. It stops this needless stream of posts from both of us, and proves whether the conversation has been abandoned or not. Redacted II (talk) 00:04, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

it's not your idea, it's Wikipedia policy that I stated above. Second, you stated:

There are five for "failure", including you.

There are six for "partial failure", including me.

Need I remind you of this WP:NOTDEM rule. 5 to 6 is absolutely not consensus, and Wikipedia does not hold votes for things in talk pages. So any atempt to use taht to further your argument or ram through changes is null and void. Jrcraft Yt (talk) 00:27, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Also, I'm still participating in this discussion, and will continue to do so. Anyone claiming that I have abandoned this is incorrect. Jrcraft Yt (talk) 00:29, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

I assumed that you weren't. It was a reasonable assumption, given that your contributions stopped suddenly.

Until a new consensus is reached, the article should remain as is. I believe that's fair. And that several other editors would agree with me here.

(Also, my idea of waiting a week for other editors, such as you, was based on Wikipedia policy) Redacted II (talk) 00:34, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Please post the Wikipedia policy that's state's I have abandoned this discussion after 24 hours. I'm genuinely curious. If you want to inquire if someone has abandoned something, you can always leave them a message in the talk page. Jrcraft Yt (talk) 00:38, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

I made an assumption, that, given how often you were posted, your pause meant you had left. I was wrong.

I don't see how my assumption affects what the proper label is. Redacted II (talk) 00:43, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

As they say, assuming makes an a** out of you and me.

If we would like to get into what "status quo" is, the sidebox had Failure as the outcome from the first edits after the msision until, what? The 23rd? I believe that using "status quo" to freeze a classification in a favourable condition, when the existence of such a status quo is very much debatable, is not the best choice. Sub31k (talk) 01:02, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

A potential compromise would be to label the launch as none of the three existing options. Given that B7/S24 were prototype vehicles, one could argue that a partial failure, success, or failure of the vehicle doesn't count as a launch of the SpaceX starship. Redacted II (talk) 00:45, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

I haven't abandoned my position just because I haven't been able to reply for 24 hours. CtrlDPredator (talk) 02:12, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Currently, the discussion has shifted over to the "New Sidebar Proposal section"

I admit I made an assumption then, and I was wrong. Let's not have that dominate the rest of this discussion, as that would severely inhibit the entire point of this discussion. Redacted II (talk) 11:10, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

(Going to scoot this back over for readability) Starship is grounded by the FAA due to inflight failure on an orbital launch attempt with clear and explicit primary mission goals. And did not accomplish even a quarter of them, it is inline with how Wikipedia has been cataloging spaceflights, and test launches for over a decade to class this as failure. This is as unbiased and objective as it can possibly be. That's build on over a decade of precedent and consensus. It is the most clear, precise, and definite classification that we can use of this page for readers. Not something like ("It failed shortly into flight before the vast majority test objectives were completed, but actually it didn't fail, it mostly succeeded (what partial failure means) unlike every other failed test flight on this website because we want it to be different for no legitimate, unbiased reason"). Jrcraft Yt (talk) 00:53, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

It's primary goal was to clear the tower. The reason all but Terran 1s first flight are failures is that the payload was lost. With Terran 1, it should have been regarded as a partial failure, for the same reasons as Starship should be regarded as a partial failure.

But for all of the other launches, there was a payload, and it was lost. And your definition of partial failure is, IMO, incorrect. Partial Failure is a mixture of failure and success. It can mostly fail, but have some success, or mostly succeed, and have some failure.

However, there is still my compromise option. Since Grasshopper's explosion isn't regarded as a failure of Falcon 9, B7/S24s flight shouldn't be regarded as anything in relation to the SpaceX starship vehicle. This has precedent in Wikipedia, going back at least a decade (probably more).

So what do you say?

We label it as a prototype failure (like Grasshopper), or we just continue this argument for the foreseeable future?

(Also, scooting it over really helped with being able to read your points. Thank you for that) Redacted II (talk) 01:01, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

If having no payload means that something is subject to different rules, than N1/6L should be considered a partial failure, too, since that had a dummy Soyuz 7K-LOK and LK. It was also a flight of an unproven vehicle simply attempting to achieve orbit.

I also disagree with the idea that the primary goal is to clear the tower. Such a thing is based on an informal comment, not an actual testing schedule. The testing schedule posted had a great number of flight objectives, almost all of which were not met. Flight plans were submitted to regulatory agencies. Should not these more formal definitions take priority over casual statements? Sub31k (talk) 01:06, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

No problem, it was getting quite small. It's akin to Falcon 9 V 1.0 than grasshopper to F9 B5. There's no reason IMO to break Wikipedia precedent, but if you have one, I'm all ears. I have a compromise, however. Direct your attention to the Falcon 9 Wikipedia page Falcon 9 and glance at the sidebar. Part of the categories for launch statistics are broken up into versions of the vehicle (V1.1, V1.0, FT, B5, etc). If you want to separate this early version of starship out from the more planned, operational ones. We do it that way. (nextspaceflight does something similar for their starship page). The sidebar would be broken up into sections just like the F9 page, which would be precedent. Say "prototype" "tanker" "crew" "HLS lander" etc. That way, the later versions are separate, and it's clear that a prototype version failed. It would loke almost identical to the way CRS-7 looks in that page's sidebar. Jrcraft Yt (talk) 01:12, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

That fits the objective, unbiased, the precedent, and "the should / should-not-be" parts of the arguments here.Jrcraft Yt (talk) 01:14, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

If some of you think this compromise is worth considering, I am happy to create a prototype sidebar with those changes, and put it here. Jrcraft Yt (talk) 01:16, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Your compromise is, so far, the best option I've seen. Can you add a "prototype" of the sidebar here, so we can discuss any changes before it's added to the article? Redacted II (talk) 11:20, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

I would also be fine with separating the vehicle out this way, for what it's worth. – Jadebenn (talk · contribs · subpages) 01:19, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

+1 to separating the test flights from the final vehicle record. We should indicate clearly this was an exploratory prototype. The final starship might look significantly different once the prototype phase is complete. {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 15:22, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

(shifting left for readability):

Maybe a new topic should be created to discuss the four options: partial failure, failure, prototype failure, or test launch?

This would be so we don't have to scroll through 90% of the talk page before responding. Redacted II (talk) 16:30, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Done below {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 21:02, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Recent Edit Revert

-Fnlayson I understand why you keep on reverting my edit. But, at least to me, it seems like the majority on the talk page are in favor of "partial failure", instead of "failure". So, keeping it labeled as "failure" is disregarding the discussions held here. Redacted II (talk) 16:32, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Read through the section above here concerning WP:Consensus. -Fnlayson (talk) 16:44, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Lets not start an edit war here. Given that the majority of posters in the talk page (including both of us) are in support of the label "partial failure", then one could arguably say consensus has been formed, especially when multiple sources have been added that call it a partial failure. Redacted II (talk) 16:52, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

@Redacted II: I think you have the wrong editor here. My only edit was a single revert of an anon IP (120.18.150.63) removing links. So you may want to strike that. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:01, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, sorry about that. I'll see what I can do. (EDIT: FIXED ISSUE) Redacted II (talk) 18:20, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

however I did just now add a dubious template to let readers know this is not completely true and it's being discussed here. We don't want to mislead our readers. Fyunck(click) (talk) 03:15, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

That's the best move until a consensus can be made Redacted II (talk) 11:50, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

New Sidebar Proposal

Proposal A

(A) Starship

Launch history
Total launches	0 List of SpaceX Starship flight tests Second stage tests: 9 Full vehicle orbital tests: 1 - did not achieve orbit

It is imprecise to say that the launch had "many objectives that were not met". Of course they planned a full mission profile from launch to splashdown but the chances of even just clearing the tower were low. The only mission goal was "fire it and see what happens" as supported by multiple sources. This is very much an exploratory prototype phase and not the final design. Reliable sources call this a success for a reason (see comments by Bill Nelson or Chris Hadfield https://www.npr.org/2023/04/21/1171202753/spacex-starship-launch-explosion-cheer-success. It was a successful test and NOT an operational launch. Therefore it should not count as an operational launch failure. But should be clearly indicated as a test in the sidebar or not included at all in the sidebar and placed in an article such as Falcon 9 prototypes or List of SpaceX Starship flight tests. {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 15:38, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

How about something like the sidebar on the right? {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 16:22, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

That's exactly what I proposed earlier! While I believe the label of partial failure is best, I'd support this option over Jrcraft Yt compromise. Redacted II (talk) 16:26, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Can you go into more detail about how you are interpreting this compromise? I'm not sure we are all on the same page. – Jadebenn (talk · contribs · subpages) 20:42, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

@Jadebenn we had a slight edit conflict. I was reformatting to make things clearer. The proposal is on the right. {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 21:02, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

The idea of this compromise is that starship has had 0 operational flights, 9 second stage flight tests (if Hopper counts, otherwise 5), and 1 full stack flight test, which will simply be regarded as having not achieved orbit. This removes the entire success/partial failure/failure debate, as none of these are used in the sidebar. Redacted II (talk) 21:09, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

I disagree with the inclusion of sub-10km hops in the launch history section. After all, Falcon doesn't have Grasshopper flights on its page. (The ship hops feature roughly the same OML as the "complete" second stage but are totally different in capability, profile, etc., and are not representative of the complete system.)

Also, might want to find language a bit more standardised than "full stack", which is something seldom seem outside this program.

I still maintain that informal comments by individuals do not override formally defined flight goals, in writing, which all point towards an orbital flight as part of the objectives. Sub31k (talk) 02:42, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

I just included them as a proof of concept. We can decide what to actually include but right now we are not linking that excellent article (List of SpaceX Starship flight tests) which is a pity {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 08:21, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

They were starship prototypes. They can arguably be included.

However, I can also see reasons to not include them. Redacted II (talk) 11:11, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Does Hopper count as a second stage flight test, given how dissimilar it was to the current starship spacecraft? Different steel thickness (12.5 mm v.s 3 mm), different engines (1 r1 v.s 3 r2 and 3 (eventually 6) r2vac), different size, no nosecone, no flaps, different landing legs (three immobile legs v.s none).

One could say the same about sn5 and sn6. No nosecone, and no flaps. Redacted II (talk) 22:22, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

• Support - see first post {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 10:42, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
• SUPPORT- so long as "full stack" is replaced with "integrated vehicle" in the sidebar Redacted II (talk) 11:11, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Considering also other comments by Sub31k how about "Full vehicle orbital test"? It's shorter {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 12:04, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

That also works. Redacted II (talk) 12:05, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Oppose. Outside of issues with interpretation of outcome, it's confusing and contradictory to list both zero and one launch simultaneously, in close quarters with one another. This lacks clarity and is definitionally predicated on forcing a change to outcome classification. Sub31k (talk) 12:28, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Oppose mostly for the same reason as Sub31k, either a flight is a launch and it should be included in the sum, or it isn't. C9po (talk) 14:02, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Those are not launches of the final vehicle though. They are launches of exploratory and partial prototypes so they should be clearly indicated as such. For example: this prototype did not possess the capability to carry any kind of payload (no payload bay or cabin has been designed), or to land as no landing legs were installed (it was scheduled to crash in the ocean). So it could NOT be a full success under any circumstance as it was not capable of performing a full mission (vehicle is designed to land). This is not an ordinary rocket and the basic expendable rocket template is insufficient to describe it. The "final starship" doesn't exist yet and will be very different from those prototypes. Hence: Starship launches = 0 - Prototype orbital launches = 1. {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 14:52, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Proposal A2

(A2) Starship

Launch history
Total launches	0 List of SpaceX Starship flight tests Second stage tests: 9 Attempted orbital tests: 1 - did not achieve orbit

• Other ways of tweeking this sidebar proposal:

"Launch history: Attempted orbital test flights: 1 (did not reach orbit)"

"Previous test flight: 20 April 2023". 2001:2020:32F:A3C0:38BB:99D2:BDC4:C435 (talk) 16:01, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

That sounds very similar (but not identical) to the option being discussed above this one. With your permission, I'll move your post over to that discussion. Redacted II (talk) 16:27, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose - I would stick to Proposal A as every test is an "attempt". No need to say it {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 10:51, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose As it just predicates another debate, for both A and A2.

Proposal B

Here was how I intended my proposal. consider this what a future, more filled out version would look like given a few years:

(B) Starship

Launch history
Total launches	30 Prototype: 3 · Tanker: 20 · Crewed: 5 · HLS: 2
Success(es)	27 Prototype: 2 · Tanker: 18 · Crewed: 5 · HLS: 2
Failure(s)	3 Prototype: 1 · Tanker: 2 · Crewed: 0 · HLS: 0
First flight	20 April 2023

This is based upon the same style and formatting of the Falcon 9 side bar. This effectively what I was going for. This allows up to break up the different versions, and add new one when needed. The same design would also work for recovery statistics. This is totally impartial, objective, and follows precedent set for over a decade to maintain consistency & compatibility with other articles. it provides more information to the reader, and separates out these early vehicles from further statistics. Jrcraft Yt (talk) 23:28, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Nevermind the previous edit, I'm an idiot and didn't read (it's also 2 am where I am, lol). This is fine by me. – Jadebenn (talk · contribs · subpages) 06:53, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

I can settle for this. If we decide on that, I'm good with it. Bvbv13 (talk) 07:01, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Sure it's a good alternative. As long as we clearly indicate this was a test prototype. {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 08:19, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

I'm a little confused on the implementation here. In your new infobox I see "3" prototype launches. I see "2" prototype successes and "1" prototype failure. Given that most here seem to feel this last prototype launch was both a success and a failure (partial success), how would it be numbered in your infobox? Would you list it in both success and failure slots? Also, while the average reader will understand the terms prototype, crewed, and tanker, they will not know what the heck HLS is. For an infobox that is bad. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:46, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

They're just showing what it could potentially look like after a few years. If that proposal was implemented, only one launch would be present Redacted II (talk) 11:14, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

I fully understood it was just an example, but the terms must be understood before we should say yea or nay. How would this launch be applied in the infobox? Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:40, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

To the best of my knowledge, it would just show under failure(s):

1

Prototype: 1

And under success(es):

0

Prototype: 0 Redacted II (talk) 20:06, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

So we don't solve the problem of a "partial success", we just move it under a new heading and still call it a failure? We'd be right back to square one with more than 1/2 the editors understandingly upset with the nomenclature, and our readers still scratching their heads. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:02, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Which is why I think the option above this one is better. Redacted II (talk) 21:48, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Just saying, either way, there's about an even split in favour and opposing definition as a failure/success. There isn't any agreement either way. Sub31k (talk) 12:26, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

I tried simulating how it would look with current data. {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 12:44, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Starship

Launch history
Total launches	1 Prototype: 1
Success(es)	0
Failure(s)	1 Prototype: 1
First flight	20 April 2023

I do not think that this kind of Falcon 9 style infobox makes sense, as falcon 9 was already flying when they started testing booster landings. With starship, there is only the promise of future tanker, crewed and HLS versions, so I don't see a reason to already list those versions in the Infobox at this point in time. C9po (talk) 09:18, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

RGV aerial has begun to spot HLS components at Starbase (the upper engine rings). So it's not a "promise of future HLS versions". Redacted II (talk) 11:16, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

These future variants can be included as they begin to materialise. For now, just what exists - the prototypes. Sub31k (talk) 12:24, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

We will want to separate b9/s26s flight with b7/s24, as they are vastly different vehicles (similar to how grasshopper and F9 1.0 are different vehicles).

Maybe we can use prototype dev1 and prototype dev2 to differentiate? Redacted II (talk) 11:18, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

This is why I would simplify with the proposal above that keeps all the prototypes in a separate launch counter. {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 11:58, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

• Partial support - Proposal A or C simpler and more clear with current data {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 10:42, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

• Support - This is the option with the greatest clarity and the greatest extensibility. It avoids jargon, as well. Sub31k (talk) 12:22, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

OPPOSE- While this is a good option, the other options do better at portraying the flight as a "partial failure". Redacted II (talk) 21:36, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

• Fully support As other's said, this option reduces the complexity, technical jargon, and overcrowding of the sidebar. It's the one easiest to add to when new iterations come out because it doesn't impose a limit unto itself. It's the cleanest, and follows Wikipedia's quality standards as well as spaceflight Wikipedia precedent established for well over a decade. --Jrcraft Yt (talk) 03:24, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

Proposal C

(C) Starship

Launch history
Total launches	0 Successes = 0 Failures = 0 Partial = 0 Test launches: 1 Successes = 0 Failures = 0 Partial = 1 List of SpaceX Starship flight tests

(C2) Starship

Launch history
Total launches	Operational launches: 0 Successes = 0 Failures = 0 Partial = 0 Prototype launches: 1 Successes = 0 Failures = 0 Partial = 1 List of SpaceX Starship flight tests

But zero launches? Even the last prototype was a launch. It did not achieve all they wanted, but it was a launch. Maybe we need an infobox that is simply broken into full flights and test flights.

• Starship
• Full launches 0

  Crewed 0
  Uncrewed 0

  Successes = 0

  Failures = 0

  Partial = 0

• Test launches 1

  Successes = 0

  Failures = 0

  Partial = 1

With this we could break it down into something the public would understand. Fyunck(click) (talk) 00:22, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

I think that's an excellent option Redacted II (talk) 00:24, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Now I don't know how to tweak "infobox rocket" to make something like this. The parameters don't give much room to manipulate so someone with the ability to tweak that template might be needed (or an offshoot template created). And my wording might not be kosher with how you guys usually handle things here. I'm just passing through because of my lifelong love of spaceflights starting with my dad working on the engines of the mercury, gemini, apollo, and spaceshuttle crafts at Rocketdyne. I want the discussion here to end in success with everyone at least "partially" happy with the outcome so when I see the final product it's truthful and understandible by all our readers. I usually handle Wikiproject Tennis issues but always dip my toe in items I have a passion about. Fyunck(click) (talk) 01:03, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

• Partial Support - A bit more intricate than proposal A though (which I prefer over this one). And I would change label to "Prototype launches" rather than "Test launches". {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 10:42, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

  Full support for option C2 {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 22:10, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

• SUPPORT- This is an excellent option, for similar reasons as OPTION A. Redacted II (talk) 11:13, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

SUPPORT - I think more informative to separate prototype launches from operational launches. Finlaymorrison0 (talk) 16:09, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

SUPPORT - informative. 2001:2020:309:A924:D150:F4F9:1A5C:BF2 (talk) 18:18, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

OPPOSE, Potential to support - This one is ok. Though I disagree heavily with the "partial" classification. I've already made my points on that. (The point to separate out prototypes was so that they're failures would be cataloged separately). If that were to change. I will give my backing to this version instead of my own proposal immediately. I prefer C over C2, but both would Jrcraft Yt (talk) 03:31, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

@Jrcraft Yt: A query then. Under prototype would you simply list number of launches? Absolutely no successes/failures/partials? No outstanding/satisfactory/below average? Just a number of prototype launches only? I don't really disagree with you in concept since it's often rare that a prototype is 100% successful except the last few, and often the early models have abysmal failure rates as the scientists learn. However, if in prose on those prototypes it gets written that they were successful or failed or had mixed results, usually on wikipedia an infobox would state what's in prose. That can create a bit of a conundrum with people who edit these space articles all the time. They want to summarize the prose in the infobox for easy access. So would we also leave out the mention of success, failure, or partial even in the main body? Fyunck(click) (talk) 03:50, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

@Fyunck(click): Sure. I would yield that if necessary to form a consensus. Though the point of separating them was to separate their reliability statistics, which would be removed by this. That's why I prefer sidebar 2, because that's *super duper* easy to implement into statbars, and is expandable. See List of Ariane launches for example. How wonderfull would that be? Jrcraft Yt (talk) 04:04, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

When I look at proposal B (which is what I assume you mean by No. 2) I see the same issue you bring up here... Labeling prototypes into successes and failures. B does the exact same thing. And it's a bit more cluttered with tankers and Human Landing systems included. I think the worst attribute of B is that it focuses the sections of successes and failures rather than focusing on the mission type. I guess to each his own on esthetics. Fyunck(click) (talk) 04:58, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

Discussion

I feel that user:Gtoffoletto}} should be urged to make a sidebar-thingy, that is relevant for today's status.--That sidebar-thingy should preferably be shown on this talk page, first. Thanks 2001:2020:32F:A3C0:80E:FC2C:BB98:750A (talk) 17:04, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

They already have. Look right above this section of the discussion. Redacted II (talk) 17:25, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

This "New Sidebar Proposal" sub-section is fine, but it doesn't seem to be solving the problem of the main section "Success or Failure 20-Apr-2023." It just moves the problem to a new place in the infobox. Per the conversation above with an editor, we'd have a new sidebar with a failure listed under prototype when most editors here want this as a "partial success/partial failure". How does the sidebar, with added prototype, help with this debate? Perhaps this sidebar discussion should not have been a subsection of "Success or Failure 20-Apr-2023" but it's own section entirely, since it's a separate entity. We need to figure out how to list a partial success And how to make a better sidebar to incorporate this terminology. Just listing it as a failure under prototype doesn't really solve anything. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:17, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

As user @Jrcraft Yt pointed out, listing the recent starship launch as a success would be inconsistent with the standards applied to other launches. No orbit on an orbital flight, no success. There is precedent for marking an suborbital flight of a large Rocket a success (Ares I-X), but that one had an inert boilerplate upper stage and no goals beyond stage separation were set.

The current standard is imo consistent, while I don't see, how the "at least it left the launchpad"-definition could be consistent without basically eliminating the "failure" category. C9po (talk) 21:50, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Let's put it this way. I do not care one iota about how other launches have been handled here. If I look at this launch on this article at Wikipedia, and I I here what has been reported in nay sources, then it is a disservice to our readers to write it in a pov direction. All I care about is getting it right and telling our readers what happened using sources. Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:53, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Well said, Fyunck(click).

And C9po, the argument of "it left the pad, therefore partial failure", only applies to test flights. If the primary goal was to clear the pad, (which it was in this case), then it should not be labeled as a failure.

But please, let's try to keep the arguing to a minimum. Redacted II (talk) 22:58, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

It is a disservice to readers of the article to apply different standards in regards to launch status in this article than in other articles on other launch vehicles. Being consistent here would not be a POV issue for myself. CtrlDPredator (talk) 03:47, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Agree. Consistency is important, and it's my perspective that formal, written objectives are not nullified by informal statements made in the interest of damage control. Sub31k (talk) 12:14, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Lets not set off this debate (again), when we're closer than ever to a consensus Redacted II (talk) 22:04, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

It seems you are in support of the other option. Redacted II (talk) 22:13, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

That depends on how this new sidebar is handled. You said yourself "the majority of posters in the talk page are in support of the label 'partial failure'." Whether we use partial failure or partial success is no matter, but putting it under "failure" alone would go against what you said the majority wanted. Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:56, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

The other sidebar option has the label of 0 launches, as the SpaceX Starship orbital test flight was not a flight of the actual system. Just as a prototype flight that "did not achieve orbit". Redacted II (talk) 23:01, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

By this standard, we might be compelled to view things like SM-65A Atlas's in-flight failures as "less-than-failures", because they were less than full fidelity prototypes aimed at getting the SM-65 into service by iterative development.

There is plenty of documentation for 20 April's flight objectives, provided through the website, through the FAA filing, etc. Almost all were not met. Sub31k (talk) 12:36, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

I don't understand the whole discussion here. Across Wikipedia we always used a consistent scheme: If it was intended to reach orbital velocity (the company publishing a timeline where it does is definitely an indication of that) and did not then it's a failure. If it reaches an orbit but not the intended one (within reason) or if only some payloads make it then it's a partial failure. We have done this with every rocket, no matter how much people expected from the flight, and no matter how much the company tried to manage expectations. Why does this flight trigger so much discussion? --mfb (talk) 00:34, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

It's a test launch of a prototype (not even close to an "operational" vehicle). The primary goal was for it too clear the tower. The secondary goal was for it to reach orbit. 1 success and 1 failure in the goals means partial failure.

However, several compromise options are being discussed. That's how Wikipedia is managed. As far as I'm aware, simply labeling this flight as a partial failure or a failure would be impossible, as a consensus would never form. Redacted II (talk) 00:45, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Well, Apollo 13 was expected to land people on the moon. The company also published a timeline for every item, which I have somewhere. It failed to land those two guys on the moon, but it was far from a failure per NASA. It's not so hard to understand why some would look at a prototype, that had a great launch but failed in separation, might be looked at differently. The company said it only had maybe a 50/50 chance at getting to orbit. Fyunck(click) (talk) 01:03, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

I do not agree with this analogy. The Apollo 13 failure occured long after the Saturn V had any impact on the mission. It is not inaccurate to categorize it as a successful Saturn V launch. It was not a successful mission, but that's not what's being counted here. – Jadebenn (talk · contribs · subpages) 02:10, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

I think you'd be wrong because the "successful-failure" mission of Apollo 13 is well documented. Fyunck(click) (talk) 02:48, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Apollo wasn't the launch vehicle though... CtrlDPredator (talk) 04:15, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

The Saturn V was the launch vehicle for Apollo 13, it's launch was a success. The issues with the SM are not related to the launch.

Apollo 6's launch however was a partial failure. Engine No.2 failed in the second stage, but the control wiring intended for that engine actually went to engine No.3 so when the signal to shutdown No.2 was sent, it instead shut down a good working engine No.3, resulting in a lower than intended orbit despite a longer burn. The third stage engine was used to correct the orbit, but then failed to restart for TLI. They then changed to an alternate backup plan for the remainder for Apollo 6 and complete other objectives.

NASA said it was "a good job all around, an excellent launch, and, in balance, a successful mission ... and we have learned a great deal" but also more importantly that "will have to be defined as a failure". CtrlDPredator (talk) 04:14, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

I am admittedly getting quite rankled that the objective of some seems to be to avoid any listing that has a variation of "failure: 1," regardless of its accuracy. I am willing to add context that it was the failure of a prototype vehicle on a test launch (and thus not wholly unexpected) but any proposed solution or compromise that does not accurately categorize it as the failure of a vehicle seems hard to reconcile with the usage of the term across the entire rest of the wiki's spaceflight articles. – Jadebenn (talk · contribs · subpages) 02:15, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

I wouldn't get rankled. Everyone is doing their best to express what they read with what we put here on Wikipedia, you included. Sometimes people just disagree, and sometimes sources disagree. This prototype didn't explode on the pad in a fireball. If it winds up going under some "partial failure" header or "mixed results" header, as long as it conveys to readers what happened all should be well. Fyunck(click) (talk) 02:48, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

But we have other failed test launches that completed more mission objectives than Starship that are still classed as failures.

The Terran 1 launch just last month that passed max q and completed stage separation, but the second stage didn't ignite. That is marked down as a launch failure, because it is. We shouldn't treat Starship any differently. CtrlDPredator (talk) 04:22, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

How we at wikipedia have listed items in the past really doesn't concern me as much as getting the correct info to the population that reads it. I'm sure we could go tit for tat of partial failures. Apollo 6 was a partial failure. It planned to go to the moon per all the paperwork. The first stage fired but the second stage lost a couple engines... this resulted in a poor low orbit insertion. They went ahead to fire up stage three for moon departure and zip... no ignition. It's considered a partial success. For more optimistic goals than the starship prototype. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:34, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

We do need to be consistent and impartial else we are misleading people reading these articles. Saying that you don't care about how other launches are categorised and wanting to apply a different standard to Starship launches is straying outside neutrality and pushing a POV. I don't think that is a valid reason to treat this launch differently to all others. CtrlDPredator (talk) 09:01, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

You are twisting my words. We do need to be impartial, on that we agree. We use sources and we go from there. I don't care how other launches get categorized on wikipedia if they are wrongly categorized. Your words above are POV if you don't go by sources. We treat this launch like everything else, backed by sources. If the other articles are wrong we would look at each, check the sources, and correct them if they are also POV and not backed by sources. You seem to want to follow a script even if it's a bad script. I don't follow that mantra nor do I agree with it. I am helping with this article right now, not a bunch of others that could be wrong if I decided to look at them also. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:17, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

I have to agree and I am sharing those concerns. I feel that the push to avoid listing it as a launch "failure" is a bit of a POV concern. CtrlDPredator (talk) 04:25, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

This section is way too long so I haven't read it completely but I'm not so concerned with the near term value of whether this is a failure or a success but more concerned with how this will be treated in the long term. This flight is a non-revenue flight, without a payload (or even a payload bay), without landing functionality and without refueling capability. It will be a functionally completely different vehicle from the Starship vehicle that just flew. I'd argue thus that this vehicle that just flew and that eventual vehicle would neccessarily have different article pages, in the long term, and thus this failure wouldn't count against the failure count of that eventual vehicle. Maybe this can help to resolve the argument. Part of the problem here is that Spaceflight has never been done this way before so we don't have the right words, not just as wikipedia editors, but in the spaceflight community as a whole on how to describe this flight. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Ergzay (talk) 06:22, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

I'll tell you this. For this launch and even Terran 1, they are discussing some of the same things at the NASA forum and in other places on the internet. No one is quite sure how to categorize these launches. However, wikipedia does not make the news... we are not a source. We simply report the facts the sources give us. Sources are certainly not calling this launch a success, but sources are calling this launch a failure, a partial failure, and a partial success. heck it's even being debated by overseas space agencies. Space experts in mainland China are calling it a failure. But space experts in Hong Kong are calling it a moderated success given the company main goals were to "clear the launch pad, collect data, and get ready to go again". So the fact we are arguing about how to categorize it is really no surprise. No matter what we have in the infobox we "must" be informative and lay out the failure to partial success sources. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:48, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia editors historically have done a lot of original research and synthesis on many spaceflight articles just to fill in basic statistics so we may eventually have to do the same here again at some point. Maybe some kind of splitting of this and future test launches into a separate category from the "operational" starship launches. In that case I'd just omit any statistics on "failure" or "success" or "partial success" as it's a test, and simply describe the outcome of the test and what occurred without labeling it success or failure. If we had to pick a term though I'd actually prefer to use the word "pass" here rather than labeling it a success or failure, if I had to pick a term, as that's what you use with tests. Ergzay (talk) 10:11, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

@Ergzay I think you views are in line with my proposal A above. Separate clearly this launch as a "Prototype launch" and not a launch of the final vehicle {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 10:47, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Yeah that sounds like a good idea. Ergzay (talk) 14:02, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

@Ergzay Express your support then :) {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 14:42, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

I just did didn't I? Ergzay (talk) 03:41, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

Note - On chart C2 I used the word "partial" as opposed to "partial failure" or "partial success". This left it more ambiguous, and it was on purpose given the strong feelings here. The term "partial" is used extensively here in discussion and I went with the flow. Thinking about it, another term that could be used is "mixed" or "mixed results" instead of "partial." I'm not sure it's better, it's just an option in case someone hadn't thought about it. Whatever gets the most people saying "I can live with that compromise" is what we should strive for. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:18, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

I'd like to add one more thing to this discussion, as Wikipedia is not a source, we should look at how other organizations are cataloging this launch. Some of the most notable ones in no particular order:

Gunter's space page: Failure. (https://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/starship-s24.htm).

Nextspaceflight: Failure. (https://nextspaceflight.com/launches/details/6754)

Rocketlaunch-live: Failure (https://www.rocketlaunch.live/launch/full-stack-test-flig)

Jonathan McDowell's Space Report: Failure (https://www.planet4589.org/space/jsr/latest.html)

Space Launch Schedule: Failure (https://www.spacelaunchschedule.com/launch/starship-integrated-flight-test/)

Please add more if you find them. but at this point, it's a clear POV & original research problem to declare partial. That's be more than enough sources to show consensized failure. Jrcraft Yt (talk) 03:46, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

Really?, this is a rather biased list of yours, and I don't think very helpful.

Hong Kong Laboratory for Space Research: Moderated success (https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science/article/3217893/chinas-space-enthusiasts-debate-elon-musks-starship-explosion-expensive-failure-or-partial-success)

New Scientist: not a complete failure (https://www.newscientist.com/article/2370122-spacexs-enormous-starship-rocket-finally-launched-and-then-exploded/)

Singularity Hub: Partial Success (https://singularityhub.com/2023/04/21/spacex-starship-launch-hailed-as-a-success-despite-exploding-mid-flight/)

Itf Science Space and Physics: Partial Success (https://www.iflscience.com/spacexs-starship-lifts-off-and-explodes-in-space-68557)

Asronomy.com: Partial Success (https://astronomy.com/news/2023/04/spacex-starship-explodes-minutes-after-launch)

Gulf News: Partial Success (https://gulfnews.com/world/elon-musks-starship-successfully-lifts-off-then-explodes-in-rapid-unscheduled-disassembly-1.1681987094424)

UK Telegraph: considered a win (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/04/20/spacex-starship-rocket-launch-watch-live-elon-musk/)

The Space Review: it may be years before we know whether to count this abbreviated test flight as a success or not (https://www.thespacereview.com/article/4572/1)

Aerospace consultant Linda Forczyk: “a partial success, or a successful failure.” (https://www.verifythis.com/article/news/verify/science-verify/was-the-spacex-explosion-a-success-or-a-failure-a-little-of-both-starship/536-c2def0fe-6cc0-42b9-93a6-7a0ce3d8141a#:~:text=Aerospace%20consultant%20Laura%20Forczyk%2C%20in,the%20atmosphere%2C%E2%80%9D%20she%20said.)

USA Today: Partial Success (https://ustoday.news/the-explosion-of-the-spacex-spacecraft-was-intentional/)

CBC News Canada: Partially Successful (https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/spacex-starship-success-1.6823172)

Los Angeles Times: Successful Failure (https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2023-04-25/elon-musk-spacex-starship-nasa-moon-landing)

I think it would be even more POV and original research to declare this launch a failure. There are plenty of sources on all sides but to simply plop this into the fail category is quite wrong based on sourcing. Listings such as yours and mine are pointless and non-helpful at this point of discussion, but for you to say that using "partial" is clear POV & original research is completely wrong and you may owe an apology to those that are arguing the other side of the issue. Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:51, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

Image Debate

While the old image shows the vehicle in more detail, it is showing an outdated set of prototypes (B4/S20). In order to accurately show what the vehicle looks like, the newest set of prototypes should be used. The new image I've added is of B7/S24, the most recent set of prototypes. Furthermore, it shows the vehicle in flight, which is what almost every single rocket's Wikipedia page has as the main image. Redacted II (talk) 13:35, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

I agree, the page should show the newer version. It is also important that the image shows the vehicle in flight. However, it is very difficult to make out the Superheavy booster and Starship in the picture. If there is a better image, perhaps use that? 64.67.42.115 (talk) 16:53, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

I do not think B7/S24 has featured any visual differences from B4/S20 that are enough to warrant the image to be removed IMHO; the in-flight image is too small for readers to have an idea of the configuration of Starship. Best way is to use B4/S20 for the time being while a B7/S24 stack image with proper license is found, I am sure one can be found given so many people have visited Starbase in recent months. Galactic Penguin SST (talk) 09:05, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Lets see, 33 engines, a completed heat shield, and chines. Those are some major changes. And the launch pad shown isn't remotely similar to what it was in the moments before launch. We shouldn't put a misleading image in as a placeholder. Better to use a less detailed image instead. Redacted II (talk) 11:15, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

@Redacted II 173.176.40.172 (talk) 02:48, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

i have a picture of b7/s24 stacked on the pad the day before flight if you're all interested in that [osunpokeh/talk/contributions] 18:35, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Maybe replace the image of b4/s20 being used in the article with that? The main image should be of the vehicle in flight. But I'd love to see this new image! Redacted II (talk) 19:00, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

“First intended to be fully reusable”

What about earlier vehicles that received substantial development effort, such as (but not limited to) the Kistler K-1?

If the proportion of development progression to stated goals is considered (i.e., how far along are you on development of stated intent for capability), previous reusable launch system development efforts advanced to a comparable development level.

Therefore, it may be beneficial to rewrite this segment of text to reflect both prior development efforts and the developmental progress of the SpaceX vehicle. Lemniscate-waldkauz (talk) 07:39, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

OPPOSE. Starship was the first to have a full-scale prototype. Kistler K-1, VentureStar, DC-3, DC-X, the list goes on. None of them ever got close to a full-scale prototype. Therefore, no change should be made Redacted II (talk) 17:15, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Funding?

I don’t see where funding for this project is discussed. Is funded by Tesla? Spacex Falcon profits? NASA? 2405:9800:B910:BA1B:88FC:901B:33FA:48AC (talk) 01:29, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

This article starts by saying: "Starship is a ... under development by SpaceX."--How much money is spent on Starship - that seems to be relevant for this article.--Where does SpaceX get its income? That question might not fit, in an article about Starship. 2001:2020:32F:A3C0:80E:FC2C:BB98:750A (talk) 17:13, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Why is the page protected?

The page has edit protection enabled for reasons not specified on the talk page. @El C can you further explain? Ergzay (talk) 01:35, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

I second this, why is this page protected? I don't like this, it goes against WP principles. Admin @El C please explain. Matthieu Houriet (talk) 10:54, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

I will go to ANI to report this. This is just egregious behavior from both sides. It's sad to see an article that I've worked hard for 2 years having been torn by disputes. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 12:41, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

After reading the current policy, full protection is now deemed an acceptable alternative to striking involved user accounts when an edit war involves multiple parties. Edit war was the reason invoked by admin in the protection log. In short, I'm afraid there's not much to complain about to the ANI. It's just sad as you said. Matthieu Houriet (talk) 20:01, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Creation of Dedicated Starship/Super Heavy Pages

A while (I have no idea how long) ago, Super Heavy and Starship had their own wikipedia pages. Given that both stages have flown in an integrated configuration, I believe it is time for the creation of two dedicated pages: one for Super Heavy and one for Starship. After all, the Atlas V stages and the Delta IV stages have dedicated Wikipedia pages. Redacted II (talk) 17:07, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

The booster. Anyone (who can write) might consider starting to write at en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Super_Heavy_(rocket)&action=edit or at Super Heavy (booster rocket).--Can one also write an article about any specific one of the prototype boosters? Perhaps. 46.15.87.175 (talk) 17:32, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

The only prototypes that I believe are noteworthy enough to warrant a new article are sn15, s24, b7, and maybe b4 and s20. Redacted II (talk) 18:29, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Yeah. It is also okay that someone starts a (stub or) article about "Super Heavy (rocket)" [en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Super_Heavy_(rocket)&action=edit] and then anyone can add sections about "Booster 7" (R.I.P.) and "Booster 4". 2001:2020:32F:A3C0:80E:FC2C:BB98:750A (talk) 18:44, 26 April 2023 (UTC)/ 2001:2020:32F:A3C0:80E:FC2C:BB98:750A (talk) 18:47, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

I would welcome any help in creating the Super Heavy (booster rocket) article, as it is my first article. Redacted II (talk) 18:54, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

"Your" article is now on your talk page. Enjoy! 2001:2020:32F:A3C0:993:A863:4653:7DA7 (talk) 19:38, 26 April 2023 (UTC)