Talk:Sinhalese people

mahavamsa origin myth

Mr @JohnWiki159:, Mahavamsa says that Vijaya and his entourage married nobles women from the pandya kingdom. Southern Madura refers to madurai, and pandu refers to the pandya kingdom. The chapter also refers to thousands of settlers migrating from the Pandya kingdom (of the 18 guilds). See the notes in the Mahavamsa chapter at the end. In the Gananath Obeysekera article he clearly states that Vijaya married a pandya princess:

"Subsequently, in a formal ceremonial, he married a princess from South Madurapura (in the Tamil country, distinguished from North Madurapura, the land of Krsna). There were no heirs from this marriage, and Vijaya's brother's son was brought from Sinhapura to take over the kingship.(5) This is the foundational myth for Sri Lankan history and it is an inescapable part of the historical consciousness of the Sinhalas. Modern scholars have scarcely noted the fact that it is a myth of ethnic separation and integration. The land is consecrated and cleansed of evil spirits by the Buddha for Vijaya to land; the hunters are descended from Vijaya but by an illegitimate union, and hence outside the pale of legitimate kingship and Buddhist history and civilization. The Tamils are affines; they do not inherit the dynasty; it goes back to Pandu Vasudeva, whose name resonates with that of the protagonists of the Mahabharata. Yet, unlike the Vaddas, the Tamils are not only kinfolk but also co- founders of the nation. This aspect of the myth has been almost completely forgotten or ignored in recent times. The rest of the Vijaya myth appears everywhere and is so powerful that virtually everyone treats it as an empirically "true" beginning of Sri Lankan history."

Mahavamsa says:

"When the messengers were quickly come by ship to the city of Madhura they laid the gifts and letter before the king. The king took counsel with his ministers, and since he was minded to send his daughter (to Lanka) he, having first received also daughters of others for the ministers (of VIJAYA), nigh upon a hundred maidens, proclaimed with beat of drum: `Those men here who are willing to let a daughter depart for Lanka shall provide their daughters with a double store of clothing and place them at the doors of their houses. By this sign shall we (know that we may) take them to ourselves.’ When he had thus obtained many maidens and had given compensation to their families, he sent his daughter, bedecked with all her ornaments, and all that was needful for the journey,17 and all the maidens whom he had fitted out, according to their rank, elephants withal and horses and waggons, worthy of a king, and craftsmen and a thousand families of the eighteen guilds, entrusted with a letter to the conqueror VIJAYA. All this multitude of men disembarked at Mahatittha; for that very reason is that landing-place known as Mahatittha."

There is no mention in Mahavamsa of Sinhalese being descendants of Nagas. Vijaya and his men married women from the Pandya country (Note 16- Now Madura, in the south of the Madras Presidency.). Metta79 (talk) 14:21, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

No point mahawansa has said that the people from Madurai got absorbed to the Sinhalese identity neither them settling anywhere in sl and they were brought to help vijaya maintain the kingdom and vijaya died and they more likely left sl after his death because more people came to sl from north Ultra8K (talk) 07:00, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Read the first passage quoted above from the cited reliable source by Gananath Obeyesekere. It is a scholarly secondary source which is the highest form of reliable source on wikipedia: Wikipedia:Reliable sources#Some types of sources

He clearly points to the myth suggesting that the Pandya women were "kinfolk and cofounders" of the Sinhala nation, along with the 'Vijaya' men. Metta79 (talk) 12:27, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Mahavamsa mentions both mixture with yakkhas and pandya settlers, you cant selectively pick and choose what you want from Mahavamsa. Also it is very rude to ask to take it to the talk page and then make such biased edits, without discussion. Seriously you say Sinhalese are descended from yakkhas based on the kuveni story, whose descendants are described as the pulindas/veddahs. But then you ignore the thousands of settlers Mahavamsa mentions from the pandya kingdom, including the wives of Vijaya and his men. Metta79 (talk) 16:48, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Dakkhina Madura (southern Madura) of the Pandu kingdom as identified by scholars as Madurai of the Pandya kingdom. Pandu is the word used to describe the Pandya dynasty throughout the Pali chronicles of Mahavamsa and Culavamsa. Metta79 (talk) 17:24, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Pseudo history and modern day folk etymology - siv hela has no place in an encyclopedia of repute

Siv hela and ravana 'theory' is well known pseudo history that has no place in an encyclopedia. Not one trained historian or linguist will agree with this fringe theory. I've already shown how it does not keep in with WP:PARITY. None of the sources you have used satisfy WP:SCHOLARSHIP and are poets, novelists etc. Not trained scholars in the field. Metta79 (talk) 22:25, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

@JohnWiki159:, the ancient Sinhala Prakrit word for 4 is catara, which is closer to Sanskrit/Prakrit catur (compare to modern Sinhala hatara, Sinhala often has c>h or s>h change from Prakrit/Sanskrit). This word 'Siv' is not even attested in the ancient period, let alone the fake term Sivhela. It is impossible for this fake term 'Siv-hela' to have existed in the prehistoric period. There is no evidence of this term existing anywhere in the ancient inscriptions or literature!!!

https://sirimunasiha.wordpress.com/about/vilaveva-inscription-a-short-notarial-deed-on-stone/

https://sirimunasiha.wordpress.com/2010/09/23/ancient-sinhala-numerals/

https://sirimunasiha.wordpress.com/about/a-table-of-numerals/

https://www.inscriptions.lk/

Metta79 (talk) 05:39, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

"Siv hela and ravana 'theory' is well known pseudo history that has no place in an encyclopedia". This is your Point of View. Also the theory "Sive Hela" is not a fringe theory. I have provided multiple sources which talk about this theory. They have researched about the area. Also, I don't think you are a trained scholar to completely disregard their hard work. You are just putting forward your Point of Views. And you can't say with so much confidence "It is impossible for this fake term 'Siv-hela' to have existed in the prehistoric period". This "Siv hela" is a theory and should be mentioned under the etymology section. Also, I will give a link to a research done on this regard. https://pure.uvt.nl/ws/portalfiles/portal/59020919/De_Koning_The_Many_15_12_2021_incl_kaft.pdf JohnWiki159 (talk) 07:33, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

"Also, I don't think you are a trained scholar to completely disregard their hard work." You do not know my background, I actually do have formal university training in this field (History, Sanskrit, Linguistics). But that is besides the point.

Regarding the book you have linked, the author is clear that Ravana is MYTHOHISTORY:

"it shows that the identification of Lanka (from the Ramayana) with Sri Lanka and Ravana as the king of Lanka have been part of (alternative) mythistorical imaginations of the Sinhalese." Page 12.

Please at least read what you are linking. Just because some amateur nationalists believe in clearly made up mythohistorical imaginations (which only emerged in the post independence period mind you), does not give it the right to be put in a serious encyclopedia. Otherwise, we would have all sorts of myths and nonsense polluting a serious scholarly website, which is what Wikipedia is supposed to be.Metta79 (talk) 12:24, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

Read page 131 onwards. The author analyzes "siv hela" concept and gives her ideas. This is a theory and anyone can agree or disagree on just like how some historians disagree with Mahavamsa. Then according to your logic, Mahavamsa should also be removed from the etymology section.

"Just because some amateur nationalists believe in clearly made up mythohistorical imaginations". The so called "amateur nationalists" have done research and presented their ideas. JohnWiki159 (talk) 06:53, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

It seems you have problems understanding her words. She clearly says on those pages that this siv hela theory is 'creative' meaning made up by modern day people like the poet Arisen. She does not say anywhere that it's historical. The difference between Mahavamsa and this nonsense, is that Mahavamsa is an ancient chronicle with a lot of historical value and truth corroborated by ancient inscriptions, it's the most important source of ancient Sri Lankan history. It has been historically analysed by historians. It's not some modern made up myth created out of thin air like Siv Hela. Metta79 (talk) 10:07, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

Looking at it as an outsider, I'd say that it is entirely permissible to add etymology that is commonly used but may be incorrect, or folk etymology, but it must be clearly stated as to what they are. This is because it helps people who have read about such etymology to understand what they have read may be inaccurate or entirely false, and how they are false. The sources used however should be academic sources to show that it is something that has been discussed in academic circles. Hzh (talk) 11:56, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

Yes this would be fine, but the problem with the passage suggested by JohnWiki159 is that it does not make it clear that it is a clearly incorrect folk etymology created in the 20th century. The sources he is using are all by authors not considered scholarly in the field, including the original promoter of the term Arisen.Metta79 (talk) 17:19, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

The person who wrote the article linked, Deborah de Koning, appears to be a young academic whose work has been published. She quoted other academics like Nira Wickramasinghe, so perhaps there might be some discussion about this elsewhere. The would require more reading of other publications, and more time may be necessary to write something acceptable. Whether anyone wants to do that I don't know. It seems to be a popular theory amongst certain people, and because of that I expect that it would be constantly added and so needed to be dealt with. But, it should not be added without academic sources. Hzh (talk) 20:30, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

Nira's book that Deborah references does not mention anything about 'sivhela', i've just checked.

This is what Deborah says on page 131:

"In the 1980s and 1990s, Mirando Obeyesekere and

Arisen Ahubudu provided creative etymological explanations of Sinhala/Sinhalese as

derived from Siv Hela, with siv meaning four"

Both of these people are not scholars in the relevant field. In fact the term Siv Hela appears only to have existed since the 80s! Metta79 (talk) 23:05, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

I read that part, but I was hoping for a bit more definitive statements about how the siv hela concept (that presumably arose from the hela movement) was created, and how it is false. The "creative" part indicates it may be a newly invented and unreliable theory (therefore likely considered "fringe" in academic circles), but a bit more information would be useful. Fringe theories are not forbidden in Wikipedia articles as such, there are a number of relevant guidelines like WP:FRINGELEVEL and WP:EVALFRINGE, and if a fringe idea is popular, then there are more reasons to include it if only to explain why it is not an accepted concept. But, I suppose the article might hold off adding the "siv hela" idea until there are more discussions in academic sources to give a more rounded description of the idea. Hzh (talk) 10:15, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

@Hzh Hi, thank you very much for providing your opinion on this. I included this theory under the etymology section by citing reliable sources. The "Siv Hela" theory I included in the etymology section is as follows.

Another theory is that there were four major clans of "hela" in ancient Sri Lanka even before the arrival of Prince Vijaya, and that Sri Lanka was called as "Siv hela" (siv=four in the Sinhala language) and later it was changed into "Sinhala".

I have given multiple sources but @Metta79 keeps dismissing them by calling them fringe theories. Also Arisen Ahubudu is a scholar who has done research on this. I believe this should be included in the etymology section. Can you provide your opinion regarding this? I have cited multiple sources as well. JohnWiki159 (talk) 18:27, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

The people involved are mentioned in the Deborah de Koning article, so they are not new information. From what we can gather, the siv hela theory does appear to be a recent creation, and as such, it needs independent assessment by academics to evaluate its validity. The one cited (de Koning) does not appear to consider the derivation as having firm foundation (as indicated by the use of the word "creative"), therefore may be considered "fringe" in academic circles, however, we really need more independent academic sources discussing the idea to have a better idea how the theory is regarded. Per WP:PROFRINGE the notability of a fringe theory must be judged by statements from verifiable and reliable sources, not the proclamations of its adherents. The sources you gave are primarily "proclamations of its adherents". As already mentioned, I don't have any problem with adding any theory even if it is considered fringe, particularly if the theory is popular, but it needs to be carefully written to reflect independent academic opinion so that it is not an WP:UNDUE promotion of a fringe idea. If you can find more assessment by independent academics, try again with something that's carefully-worded, and if your edits get continually disputed, then start a Wikipedia:Requests for comment to gather opinions from the wider community on whether it can be included in the article. Hzh (talk) 11:34, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for proving your valuable opinion regarding this. JohnWiki159 (talk) 15:08, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

References

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Sinhalese dna study

The most extensive genetic study done on the srilankan ethnicities point out that Sinhalese have a higher gene flow from the bengalis than any other race but the person name Metta79 keep on removing that info from Wikipedia when most of the genetic studies provided by both private and government studies shows that Sinhalese have higher gene flow from bengalis than the others and I hope it will be changed soon to the updated one Ultra8K (talk) 06:53, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

User:Metta79 61.245.171.75 (talk) 15:56, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

"The most extensive genetic study done"

Do you have a WP:RS supporting this claim?

"when most of the genetic studies provided by both private and government studies shows that Sinhalese have higher gene flow from bengalis"

Can you provide a WP:RS pointing to 'government studies'? The 2023 study cited in the introduction that you are trying to remove was led in part by Sri Lankan professors from University of Colombo (if anything that is closer to an official government institution affiliated study):

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/varanasi/study-reveals-insightsinto-genetic-historyof-sinhalese-tamils/articleshow/103299516.cms

It uses more higher resolution markers than previous studies for greater accuracy.

And also can you please point me to the evidence suggesting that "most of the genetic studies" indicate a higher gene flow from Bengalis. Thanks. Metta79 (talk) 12:18, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Source: Peoples and lauguages of srilanka by Asiff Hussein, I find it funny how it says that the Sinhalese and srilankan Tamils are genetically close it never says that the Sinhalese have a higher flow of tamil than North Indians and I think you are forgetting that the srilankan tamils have more Sinhalese genes than tamil so yeah the srilankan tamils will be close to the Sinhalese but it dosent mean that the Sinhalese have huge flow of tamil genes it means that the srilankan Tamils have a higher flow of Sinhalese genes this changes the topic so basically you are confused or you are purposely doing this Ultra8K (talk) 13:07, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

please link to the source which indicates that "the most extensive genetic study done" supports the claim of higher gene flow from bengalis.

Please read the actual 2023 study not just the news articles on it. It states that the highest dna shared (identity by descent - IBD) with the Sinhalese is with the Piramalai Kallar of Tamil Nadu (amongst the Indian populations). So it's not just Sri Lankan Tamils. Metta79 (talk) 16:22, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

It's a book not a cheap website and the link provided talks about the Sinhalese and the sl Tamils having similar gene pool nothing about the Piramalai Kallar people and you didn't answer my question and claiming I haven't read the website, the person here who haven't read the article is not me it's you

If you are unable to read and understand what the article has said or other countless books probably you need to get some serious help rather than spreading propaganda here Ultra8K (talk) 16:39, 18 December 2023 (UTC)