Talk:The Dark Knight Returns

I removed the Analysis section from this section entirely because it was not only a fairly bad and superficial analysis to begin with, but it was based on certain faulty premises – for example, it stated that the Two-Face's return to a life of crime was prompted by the Batman's reappearance, but in the book, we can clearly see Two-Face procuring men for the bank job that will finance the larger operation he's planning before Bruce Wayne becomes the Batman again. At that point, he is already being sought by the police. Also, the analysis misses the major themes of the book entirely. It completely ignores key things, such as the Batman's overpowering, even pathological personal obsession and his unwillingness to compromise, as well as the important role the oppressive and inefficient government plays in the story... among other things.

Unfortunately, I can't turn that into a more accurate analysis simply by editing what's already there and don't have the time to write up a new one from scratch right now, but leaving false information in place didn't sit well with me, either, so I just took it off entirely. I'll try and replace it with a better one soonish.--Captain Disdain 16:41, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Rename Suggested to Reflect Title

I suggest renaming this article to reflect the actual title of the book, Batman: The Dark Knight Returns because it is more accurate. Chris Griswold 17:51, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Joker's Death

This article previously reported that The Joker killed himself, breaking his own neck to frame Batman.

This isn't so, I just spent a depressing amount of time looking over that page and am completely certain that it was Batman who broke Joker's neck. The Joker was stabbing Bats in the guts, and Batman had both his hands around Joker's head and neck. In fact, most of the book was leading to the conclusion that letting Joker live had always been a mistake.

It's a significant point, because Batman's mission had always been to end killing; Joker was the first person he'd ever killed (on purpose, perhaps).

Well, you may be completely certain, but I'm sorry, that's not what happens on the page. The book makes it completely clear that the Joker snaps his own neck. In the book, they struggle; the Batman grabs the Joker's head and starts twisting it, while the Joker stabs him repeatedly with the knife. Certainly, the Batman does some serious damage to the Joker's neck; he stops moving and falls down. The witnesses see this, freak out and run away. "I hear... voices... voices calling me... a killer... I wish I were...", the Batman's internal narration says.

But the Joker speaks up after that, which he obviously couldn't do if he were dead. "They're gone...? The witnesses, I mean... I'm really... very disappointed with you, my sweet... the moment was... perfect... and you... didn't have the nerve... paralysis... really... Just an ounce or two more of pressure... and... do I hear... sirens? Yes... Coming close... you won't get far... But then... it doesn't matter... if you do... they'll kill you for this... and they'll never know... that you didn't have the nerve... I'll... see you... in hell--"

At which point, the Joker starts to snap his own neck by twisting it. The Batman's narration continues: "With a devil's strength... he twists and twists... what's left of his spine goes... whatever's in him rustles as it leaves."

There's no ambiguity here. The Joker killed himself purely so that the Batman would be blamed for his death. I'm a little surprised that you would actually read the page and not come to that conclusion, because, as you say, it's a significant point. It's certainly true that the Batman broke the Joker's neck, but that just left him paralyzed. He could have lived; he chose not to.

Accordingly, I'm reverting the page.Captain Disdain 12:17, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Influence?

As soon as I read these books (nearly twenty years after their original publication) it seemed probable to me that this version of Batman inspired the Tim Burton films which in turn inspired a number of cartoon versions. Is this a widely held theory, and if so shouldn't it be cited here? Or is it less founded than I think it is? --Feitclub 20:50, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)

As a matter of fact, there are statements to this effect in the Frank Miller article. If supportable, they should be here as well, no? --Feitclub 20:52, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, you're right. I added a couple of quick sentences about it -- take a look and see what you think... Captain Disdain 21:06, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

That's a great edit because it doesn't come right out and say "Tim Burton was inspired by Frank Miller" but it notes the obvious similarity in the way the character was handled. Thanks! --Feitclub 05:29, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC)

Well, glad you like it! That's that, then. If only all our problems could be as easily solved... Captain Disdain 13:19, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I thought Tim Burton was open about the DKR influence and being a fan of it. Chris Griswold 16:28, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

The Future?

It's oft repeated, but I have to say it's a grievous error to state that the story takes place in the future, especially given how highly topical the themes in the book are. There's numerous evidence within the story to support that it takes place in the eighties, appearances by Ronald Reagan and Dr. Ruth, references to Bernard Goetz, parodies of 80s pop psychology, etc. There's exactly one piece of evidence putting it in the future: Batman is old. Miller's intent was clearly not "What happens when Batman gets old in the future?" but "What if Batman had really been around for the past thirty years and he was old now?" If I recall correctly there's an introduction by Miller in the trade paperback collection where he states as much, but I don't have one on hand at the moment.

Sounds reasonable to me, especially considering that the Batman character has been around for more thirty years. --Poiuyt Man (talk): 12:11, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Another hint supporting the eighties thesis: the film seen by Bruce and his parents before the latters' murder should be 'The Mark of Zorro', starring Tyrone Power, which dates back from 1940. Now, assuming that Bruce was attending the first release of the film at the theater (which is plausible), and that at that time he was no older than 15 (or maybe just that age, since previously he states that Batman was born 40 years before, and at the main time of the narration he is 55), the story should take place, if really Miller intentionally arranged for these temporal details, in the first half of the eighties, and maybe just in 1985, the year of publication. Analyticone

Jason Todd

I just read the story for the first time this morning and checked the article here for some more background information. For the character description of Batman, this is listed: "He gave up the Batman identity ten years ago, strongly hinted as a reaction to the death of the former Robin, Jason Todd." If DKR came out in 1985/86 and Todd's death in the canon-universe came in 1988/89, is it just inferred in DKR that Todd had died of unexplained causes? Olessi 17:03, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• You're right, the comic book doesn't explain what killed Jason Todd. In fact, it refuses to overtly state that Todd got killed. The most we've got is that Superman suggests Batman played some role in covering up the death. As I once said to someone, it was rather fitting that Miller thought Todd would die on the job, because that's exactly what happened two years after Returns. CanadianCaesar 00:30, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

(I have no idea how to use Wikipedia, but thought I'd point out the following problems in the article, so that hopefully someone will fix them.) "...a major crime wave hits the city, Two-Face's rehabilitation goes awry, and a enormous bat crashes through the windows of Wayne Manor." -This is obviously supposed to be symbolic of Bruce's psychological struggle, not an actual event.

"In their struggle, Batman removes the bandages that have been covering Dent's face, expecting to find Two-Face's visage split in its classic dichotomy." - Wayne had paid for and had seen on TV the results of two-face's surgery. Furthermore, he states many times he is hoping that the criminal will not turn out to be two-face.

Comic Tragedy: No Laughing Matter

No doubt many will find what I'm about to say a bit nit-picky (if not a bit ridiculous), but nevertheless here goes: Wikipedians who write articles dealing with comic books might want to settle upon some term of art to use in place of the word "comic" (the adjectival noun indicating some thing's linkage to the world of comic books), so as to avoid confusion with the homophonic/homographic "comic" (the adjective indicating a thing's relation to comedy, as in, "Catch-22 is a comic masterpiece"). Yeah, I know it sounds ridiculous, but here's an example of what I mean, with the relevant word bolded, from the subsection of this article, entitled "Reputation":

[Frank Miller] adopted visual styles and "tricks" from noir novels and movies. These included dividing pages into many, many frames to give the impression of slow motion (possibly the best comic interpretation of Thomas and Martha Wayne's murders is achieved by this).

Now, while it's true that anyone who's familiar with the comic book in question will be able to deduce from context that the writer isn't claiming that this is the funniest interpretation of the Waynes' deaths, or that it's the best of the funny interpretations of said death--nevertheless, a certain ambiguity (and a rather comic one, at that) remains. I'd like to remind my fellow comic book-reading Wikipedians out there that our audience isn't made up of people who are already as knowledgable on these matters as we are--otherwise, this whole portion of the encyclopedia would be nothing but a vanity project, right?

Maybe this is just me spitting into the wind, here, worrying about things that are largely beyond the control of a few encyclopedia writers. But then again I also imagine most comic book artists in this day and age would like people to take their work as artists seriously, and it's a bit hard to do that when that unfortunate moniker is attached to what they do... Anyway, I could have just edited the above-quoted passage for clarity, but it occured to me that there might be one or two people out there besides me who have thought about this issue. Anyone feel like contributing to this discussion? --Buck 02:52, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

'generic and omniscient narrator'

"While there is a generic and omniscient narrator, the most important narration comes from inside various character's heads: Batman, Jim Gordon, Robin, Catwoman, Alfred and even the Joker all are opened up to examination."

Having just re-read DKR, I cannot think of any instance of a 'generic and omniscient narrator'. I can't think of any place where the narrator is anyone other than one of the stories characters.

I'll double check tonight (I was just looking for an excuse to re-read, again) but I think this needs to change. JayDee 08:47, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Okay, found it. One pages where the various copycats are described, and one section where you could argue that the narrator is Albert, talking about himself in the third person. I'll leave the article as is. JayDee 11:22, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Man of Steel#37

The mutants and the Batman from Dark Knight Returns appeared in the Man of Steel#37 during Zero Hour.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was move. —Nightstallion (?) ^{Seen this already?} 11:53, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

The Dark Knight Returns → Batman: The Dark Knight Returns – {Correct title for work}

Survey

• Support --Chris Griswold 16:54, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
• Move & Comment I agree -- the "Batman:" prefix is helpful for the sake of organizing and clarity. I notice, however, that wikipedia is inconsistant with its Batman articles.

We have titles like:

Batman: The Long Halloween

Batman: Hush

No Man's Land (comics)

But also have titles like:

The Dark Knight Returns

The Dark Knight Strikes Again

Mad Love (comic)

Is there a standard syle template for comic book titles somwhere? ~CS 19:28, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I haven't found a standard style; I have just been going by the trademarked title given in the books. I edited all of the references to Batman: The Dark Knight Returns that I could find, and I will be moving onto DKSA when this move is over. --Chris Griswold 20:08, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

Sorry about the clumsy move I did. Now, I am trying to fix it. Almost every reference to this work links to the new article location, and I also updated the article itself. --Chris Griswold 16:54, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Relations to Religion

I am removing the recent anonymous addition of this section on religion. The author claims that DKR is "a retelling of the book of revelations" and lists "obvious references" that are, well, not that obvious. Without references to outside citations, this section appears to be a personal interpretation of the story, not an obvious act on the part of Miller. This falls under Wikipedia's policy of no original research and is therefore inappropriate for this article. If someone can provide specific analysis by Miller or a reputable comics critic, there might be room to include this idea in a different form. ~CS 01:46, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Powered Exoskeleton Referance

I beleive the referance to a powered exoskeleton to be questionable in it's terminology. Not to pick nits, but I think using a more easily understood term like powered armor might be more appropriate, as exo-skeleton often assumes a more medical reason for use. I won't change the referance myself if anyone wishes to discuss it here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Violet Grey (talk • contribs)

Sign your comments, add new topics to the bottom of the page, et cetera, et cetera. I can agree with your points, but I've come to learn that not everything should be dumbed down for the reader. "Exoskeleton" is the better term as that's what it truely is. This is Batman, not Steel. He's worn armor in some cases, but the robatsuit is totally different. ACS (Wikipedian) 16:49, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Whoops, sorry about the breach of protocol. My concern is that, technically speaking, any suit of of protective casing can be termed an "exoskeleton"; so what is it that truely defines one? Should the exo-skeleton worn by Bruce Wayne in the Kingdon Come series be regarded with the same terminology as the "Robatsuit" (a term which I LOVE, by the way)? Or take the charecter Steel; his armor is closer in application to the Robatsuit, so would that also be considered an exo-skeleton? Sicne I'm new I have no real wish to make controversial alterations, this is merely a matter of academic debate as far as I'm concerned. Violet Grey 20:41, 15 May 2006

Of course. Sorry if I was a bit a short. I see what you mean a little better now, too. I checked the Exoskeleton article and it helps make my point, sorta. It lins to artificial powered exoskeleton. That's, apparently the accepted terminology and I tend to agree. My point in relation to John Henry Irons, was that an exoskeleton is full body predoction, whether it be artificial of natural. Hower, "armor" can just be separate pieces of a material attached to certain parts of the body. Neither is perfect, but Exoskeleton implies full body production and if the proper term and link are used, it should be fine. Still the robatsuit—I just thought of that on the fly, BTW. Glad you like it so much—reference does require editting. I'll go do that now. Thanks for bring it up. One of the best things a Wikipedian can do is consult others. ACS (Wikipedian) 09:16, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Ahh, I see your point regarding the differance between a full body suit and simple plating. I'll concede the point to you. Violet Grey 14:30 16 May, 2006

Other Media Addition

I'd like to petition that the entry regarding the Animated rendition of the Mutant leader battle mention that Michael Ironside (the voice of Darkseide on JLU and superman) provided the voice of Batman for that segment. I just thinks it's cool and worth mentioning. Violet Grey 14:32 16 May, 2006

Joker's Accomplice

What is the name of the Joker's accomplice? His name is not mentioned in the article, but he plays a fairly important role in the story, first sabotaging Two-Face's bombs and later aiding the Joker. I'm not an expert on the DC Universe, and all I know for sure is that he's not a really well known villain, and that his trademark seems to be making dolls that explode. I currently don't have access to my copy of DKR, but if someone could check to see if his name is mentioned, I think it would be worth mentioning in the article. Smooth Nick 04:13, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I can't find mention of a name with a quick scan of DKR. But that sort of thing is typical of DKR, he might be a regular Batman character with a name mentioned somewhere else.--DCAnderson 04:25, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Reputation: Banishment of Superheros

When you talk about the way in which superheros are reffered to, i.e. their alter ego's names, you don't make much mention of how this is tied in with the idea that were "banished", for lack of a better word. This "banishment" is mentioned in other graphic novels, e.g. DK2, Watchmen, ect., and is an intregal part of the story. This is a very important theme that come up not only in DKR but the sequal and other graphic novels (Watchmen, Kingdom Come, ect.). This is also very important to Batman's Character in DKR because it shows why he has such a disdain towards Superman. This theme also shows a move in comics in general towards that darker and grittier side where superheros are less idolized, something that was fairly new in DC comics. I would consdier adding this to your article.--Fmandog85 13:13, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Crossfire?

Numerous public figures were blatantly lampooned, including Ronald Reagan, Dr. Ruth, David Letterman, and the hosts of Crossfire,

I'm not entirely sure what part of the comic this sentence is referring to, but I don't think there's a spoof of Crossfire in DKR. I think maybe whoever wrote this mistook a parody of 60 Minutes' "Point/Counterpoint" segment (the title of the segment in the comic is given as "Point vs. Point") for Crossfire. Bgruber 07:42, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Addition to Homage section

In Batman: The Animated Series Season 2, Episode 06 is a child telling a story that heavily references this Frank Miller graphic novel, even direct quotes, and it is very cool. I just wanted to let everyone know, and recommend it strongly. 65.185.115.143 04:28, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Oops, this was me. Forgot to login, sorry. Dumbwhiteguy777 04:30, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

history and literature

I am going to add a section that deals with the historical and literary aspects of the dark knight; primiarly the comic book crack down of the 50s and references to stories like fall of the house of usher and clock work organge.Template:Unsigned6

If it'll be anything like your comment to this talk page, I'd rather you not. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 21:00, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I suggest you familiarize yourself with Wikipedia:No original research before you make such edits. ~CS 01:09, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Heads Up

This section is likely to get busier over the next year. Rumors have strongly suggested that the next movie in the Batman Begins franchise is "The Dark Knight". Whether or not this has anything to do with the comic however, other Wikipedia users are likely to make relevant modifications to the page.

I recommend a link to an article on the second movie to prevent their "good intentions".--MrDopple 01:06, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Damn...you're behind. I give you The Dark Knight and The Dark Knight (film). BTW, TDK is Batman's nickname and somewhat ambiguous in general. Though Begins definitely took notes from DKR, as, referenced in that article, TDK (film) won't be much like this miniseries. Ironically, only comics fans will even consider a connection, and very few are likely to mistakenly edit the article because of it.

Simply put, thanks for the thought, but Batman isn't Spider-Man. Things'll be fine. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 05:13, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Never underestimate an idiot. --MrDopple 18:38, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Wait: Who's the idiot?--Chris Griswold (☎☓) 20:07, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I didn't even want to ask. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 20:47, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that comment was innocent -- He's just saying Ace shouldn't underestimate the hypothetical idiot who'll put movie-related content in this page. I agree that this page will need vigilant watching for such things, but Ace is right, there is a DAb link at the top of the page already, and it does not require a second one directly to the film. ~CS 22:07, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I meant the generic idiot who just joins Wikipedia and hasn't read the starting guides yet. Sorry if that statement came across as though it had a target, I'm not out for blood.--MrDopple 14:14, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I suggest some heavy editing of this article...

I think we're getting way too bloated in the synopsis: too many instances of interpretation w/out citation. A synopsis is supposed to describe the story, not be a section for random analysis of why the bat crashes thru the window of Wayne Manor prompting Bruce to re-don the cape n' cowl. Unless there's a reasonable objection in a few days, I'm gonna do some heavy editing... Tommyt 20:59, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

I finally shrunk the syopsis down to what's necessary, and another user reverted it. I know from discussions both here and at WT:CMC that the smaller summary has community support. --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 22:38, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree -- an encyclopedia article should not be a detailed description of an entire book; it should be and article *about* the book, not a reproduction of it. The previous version of this summery had three problems: it was too long and detailed, it was poorly written grammatically (beginning repeated paragraphs with "but," using shorthand instead of prose), and it was poorly written stylistically (vague statements, rambling, floating parentheticals, including interpretation as summary). The rest of the article is still weak, but eliminating some of the bloated summery improves it dramatically. ~CS 01:38, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Robin

Okay it expalins why he wears the target on his chest but someone on a forum said the DKR also expalis why Robin wears all those bright colors...Does it?

Corto Maltese

Not a word about the "corto maltese" island ? Clearly named after Hugo Pratt's Character Corto Maltese as Miller stated he was a great admirer of Hugo Pratt's work. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.250.140.180 (talk) 17:30, 11 April 2007 (UTC).