Talk:Kansai dialect

Need to run that through someone more knowledgable, but one very distinctive feature of Kansai-ben, not covered yet, seems to be heavy tendency to use うち as 1st person pronoun, neglecting all others. mathrick

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I don't have an official source (maybe a native Osaka-ben/Kansai-ben speaker can confirm), but during the year and a half I spent in Osaka, I definitely noticed the use of hen instead of the standard Japanese plain negative nai in everyday speech.

example: wakaranai -> wakarahen ["don't understand"]; tabenai -> tabehen ["don't eat"]

Can someone confirm this? --Gar2chan 07:11, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, that REALLY needs to be in there if it's not already. The past tense is usually henkatta and it's used incredible frequency all over Kansai, and in conjuction with other patterns as well. I won't put that in there yet, b/c i think someone needs to give orginization of the article a bit second thought (moreso the Japanese dialects article though). Also, if the n at the end of verbs isn't in there, that kind of goes in there with hen. That pattern is made by taking the base used in the nai pattern and putting n where nai would go. Past tense can also be done as nkatta, as in orankatta, meaning someone wasn't there (oru is common to be used in place of iru in Kansai regions as well).Alan 01:16, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

the "orankatta" isn't specific to Kansaiben though, it's used as far north as in Gifu. And south? I think it stretches even further.

On above topics

Uchi is often used as a first-person pronoun by girls and young women.
Wakarahen as "don't understand" and taberarehen as "can't eat" are ubiquitous. Wakaran is just as common but more casual. Wakaran is a contraction of the older Japanese wakaranu rather than a contraction of wakaranai. This applies to all words with negative -n endings.
In Osaka I also tend to hear -te harahen (e.g. itte harahen, isn't here) as the negative form of -te haru. I'm not sure if this is possible in Kyoto as well. I don't know if orankatta is widespread outside of Kansai, but I know that using oru as "you are" (kanojyo oru? "Do you have a girlfriend?") is not the standard usage (first-person humble).
If anyone can give more feedback on these things, I'll work a bit on the article. Dekimasu 00:19, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

More on uchi: my Japanese-Japanese dictionary lists the "I" usage as "mainly Kansai-ben, used by women and children." Dekimasu 00:23, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Definately, if a man uses "uchi" people will think he's very feminine. "oru" is not hyoujungo but I have personally heard it being used in Gifu as well as in Shikoku.Mackan 00:50, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

My friends confirm that you can hear -te harahen elsewhere in Kansai. Dekimasu 10:45, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Excellent! --Gar2chan 09:37, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

The french wikipedia article on kansai-ben has rather a lot more useful/interesting linguistic information than the english one. My french isn't that good or I'd translate it. -66.251.24.39 02:02, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Book Sources

The "Colloquial Kansai Japanese" book is NOT from 2006. It is from 1995! (and Consequently, it somewhat out of date)--220.12.252.13 19:06, 30 December 2006 (UTC) Since no one has commented on this, i've made the change. I have the book in front of me and was first published in 1995 by the Charles E Tuttle Publishing Co., Inc. but has been republished a couple times later. ~nobuyuki --220.12.252.13 14:25, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Kansai-ben in Anime

Reviewing this article, I feel that it should be expanded in two areas:

1.) As noted below, the corresponding article in the French version appears to be far more comprehensive than the page in English. Somebody familiar with all three languages should work on bringing all of this information to the article in English.

I don't think the French article has a lot of substance to it. It has a lot of examples of Kansai-ben (some stereotypical yet not necessarily present in the modern day). In my opinion, the examples from the French article don't need to be in the English article because these types of detailed examples not only differ from region to region in Kansai, but also are likely to change fairly quickly. nobuyuki--220.12.252.13 14:30, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

2.) A section should be added citing the use of Kansai Dialect by characters in Anime. I am only a casual viewer of Anime, not by any means an enthusiast, yet I can still think of three such characters immediately: Ayumu Kasuga from Azumanga Daioh; The replacement organ company cyborg from Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex (season 1, episode 8); and Mitsune Konno from Love Hina. I'm sure that anybody who watches more anime than me can find more examples. What I find amusing is that in all three of the above series, the Kansai Dialect ALWAYS becomes a Texas accent in the English dub. This isn't always a negative aspect of the charcter - in fact I really enjoy Ayumu Kasuga's speaking voice and feel that it really adds an endearing quality to the character lovingly referred to as "Miss Osaka" by the rest of the Azumanga Daioh girls. I just think it's interesting that the American distributors of anime on DVD have decided to create a sterotype like this. It would be great if this article could explain exactly why characters from the Kinki region become Texans in the English version - the episode guide from ADV Films only gives a very vague explanation: "[Texas] shares the business-oriented attitude with Osaka as well as the country image that color both the Southern and Osaka accents". If anybody can expand on this, it would be greatly appreciated.

Put that in the anime article if you want, but it doesn't belong here in this article. How American anime distributors describe the situation bears no actuality to the content of this article on a Japanese dialect. Mackan 09:05, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't agree. How kansai-ben is viewed outside of Kansai is just as significant as how it is viewed within Kansai, it's worthy of a section. Just H^{editor review} 18:43, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I will have to agree with Mackan here. It may be significant to talk about perceptions of the dialect in other parts of Japan, and we can likely find sources that discuss that, but it is probably not useful to talk about English dubs of anime. That might possibly be an issue for articles on dubbing, or translation, but any discussions pertaining to English are not really about Kansai-ben. Dekimasuよ! 05:14, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with you not agreeing. First of all, WP:A, secondly, do you speak Japanese and how fluent are you? Mackan 18:45, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Feel free to disagree with me not agreeing with you. That's not going to make me agree. And please refrain from personal attacks. I'll put this on the administrator's board and put a disputed tag on the article until then.Just H^{editor review} 20:06, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Uh, now you are WAY over-reacting. I ask how much Japanese you speak, which is a perfectly legitimate question, don't you think it's a bit ridiculous to label that a personal attack when we're discussing a Japanese dialect?? While I realise it was unnecessary of me to refer to the stuff you put in as "bullshit" (which I honestly think it was, though), I wasn't expecting that you would take it personally as you seemed to be an experienced wiki-editor. My mistake, but that still doesn't make this an edit war. Mackan 20:16, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

(un-indenting) I don't really think you're doing anybody a favour labelling this an "edit war"... Let's be honest, this is all down to the fact that I called what you wrote "bullshit", please try and rise over that comment instead of taking it personally. What you write is unsourced, and as I've already stated, you're wrong. Why do you then expect me to let it stay until you find a reliable source?? Mackan 20:23, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I must beg you to remove the "express has been concerned..."-tag. You're overusing tags to get your will through, and it's rather childish. It does the article no good to be cluttered up with tags as soon as somebody wants something included. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mackan (talk • contribs) 22:24, 18 March 2007 (UTC).

I'll check back in a few days when things have calmed down and we all can continue to improve the article, I hope by then Macken can use his expertise to achieve that end rather than argue with me. Just H^{editor review} 22:46, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

If you think Wikipedia's attitude towards unsourced edits will have changed in a few days you are wrong. I'm arguing with you because your edits are making the article worse. Mackan 23:15, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Not to interject, but I would like to point out that the perception of a dialect of Japanese as "equivalent" to one dialect or another of a separate language is subjective at best, since the phonological, grammatical, and lexical developments and histories (not to mention socioeconomic factors) that characterize any one dialect are unlikely to be replicated with a high degree of commonality between languages. While there are certain points of consensus among certain media (such as the portrayal of Kansai-ben as either Brooklyn or Texan in English dubs of anime), this hardly constitutes a scientific viewpoint. It is merely a way of getting across the notion that a separate dialect is being spoken, and approximating (though not exactly matching) cultural associations such as Manzai / comedy in Kansai-ben. Nonstandard dialects are a problem for any translator, and each one approaches the situation differently; just keep in mind that whatever they do end up using to represent it is only there to give you an idea of Kansai-ben, not to represent it on a one-to-one basis. For what it's worth, a translator could represent Standard Japanese as BBC English, and Kansai-ben as Scouse, or Scots, or even Californian, but that doesn't make such a portrayal a "law" of any sort. --Julian Grybowski 00:57, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I concur. Dekimasuよ! 05:14, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I think you touched on the key point -- the portrayal of Kansai-ben as Texan or Brooklyn-ese in animes. I can live with the rest as long as the article discusses how Kansai-ben and its sub-dialects are seen by Japanese speakers (Osaka-ben is apparently brash, Kyoto-ben is apparently lilting, etc.), and that's pretty much already covered. Just H^{editor review} 01:26, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Then why did you add it again? Once again, the things you have added are about English translations of Japanese, and have nothing to do directly with Kansai-ben. Also, the external link is not from a reliable source. Dekimasuよ! 04:12, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I removed the section. The consensus is clearly against including it. Please do not add it again.Mackan 07:26, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I disagree, the consensus at worst is unclear, and at best, is clearly for it in my opinion. The translation of Kansai-ben and how it is seen in other cultural contexts is important and notable. Just H 02:52, 1 April 2007 (UTC)'

Now you might argue it's unclear, but when I made the comment, the consensus was 3-1 for not including it.Mackan 18:19, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I think this section should definitely be in the article. Translating kansai ben into English is a unique challenge, as the accent is often a crucial part of the humor and difficult to get that apart to English speaking audiences. As a reference, in the translator's notes for Magical☆Shopping Arcade Abenobashi the translator discusses why they chose to use a Texas accent for the characters. MightyAtom 02:17, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Don't you see how a section like that would be hopelessly US-biased? Should we put long lists in every language's dialectal article listing what they are translated into in different languages? Those who find this interesting are those who are interested in anime, can't you agree that this information would fit much better in an article called "anime dub" or something similar? (with a section on Kansai-ben). Mackan 07:52, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Also, not to be needlessly combative, but the fact that "translating kansai ben into English is a unique challenge" is not really a reason for including it in the article. Mackan 08:05, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I think Dekimasu sums it up well: "It may be significant to talk about perceptions of the dialect in other parts of Japan, and we can likely find sources that discuss that, but it is probably not useful to talk about English dubs of anime. That might possibly be an issue for articles on dubbing, or translation, but any discussions pertaining to English are not really about Kansai-ben."Mackan 08:49, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I concur with Mackan and Dekimasu. The information about "English Dubs" distracts from the focus of the article (which is Kansai-ben in the context and in relation to the standard Japanese language). The trivial information about the convention of using regional US accents like Texas / Brooklyn / etc. belongs in an article more focused on Anime English Translation / Dubbing. --Gar2chan 09:30, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I can understand that, although I disagree. The challenges of translating/dubbing kansai ben into English is relevant to this article, and a place where many non-Japanese speakers will encounter kansai ben. There is a reference, so that can't be disputed. The fact that it is an English bias isn't really important, as this is the English wikipedia site. Other issues of translating into French would be relevent to the French wikipedia, etc.... If a seperate article on dubbing kansai ben for anime were created, you can bet it would be hit with a merge tag pretty soon. To be honest, the only real reason I can see not to include a section on this would be out of some sort of anti-anime bias. MightyAtom 02:32, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I do think an English bias is a problem. See WP:NPOV. Although they do not explicitly list linguistical bias (then again it's by no means an exclusive list), I do think dealing only with English translations would be uncompliant with Wiki guidelines. Also, I was suggesting a separate article for anime translations (or just Japanese translations would be fine too), not for "dubbing kansai ben for anime". Mackan 17:33, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

In that case, the section should be about translation in general, not just about anime. There are lots of things that are translated from Kansai-ben into English (novels, original films, quotes in documentary films, quotes in nonfiction, quotes in newspaper articles, etc.), and it doesn't make sense to focus on anime any more than it makes sense to exclude anime due to bias. If the reference you are referring to is the translator's notes from your post above, I don't have access to that source. The one that was previously included in the article was an off-site Wiki, which isn't checked for accuracy or peer reviewed. Dekimasuよ! 02:46, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, it would definitely be about English in general. There is no reason for it to be anime-specific. MightyAtom 04:43, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Hiya. I created the 'cultural importance' section, and put Template:totally-disputed-section in; hopefully, this'll be a clear indication as to what's under dispute (i.e. not the morphological aspects of the dialects.) In addition: 'analogous' might be a better word than "equivalent". --moof 03:40, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

"Cultural importance"? I really do not think that's an ideal name for that section. Mackan 18:16, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

The issue seems to be the translation of one nation's dialects into another language, in this case English (being English Wiki). This is not an issue exclusive to Kansai-ben, but to any and every dialect in every non-English language that translation is applied to. For example, how are the use of Chinese dialects translated from Chinese films? Also, if a British company translates an Anime, what accent do they use? Welsh? Should that also be mentioned? Making a big deal out of some US companies translating Osaka-ben as Texan or Brooklyn accents seems out of place here. Perhaps a short sentence to mention it, but no more. You would think that any detailed explanation would be included in an article on translation in general, and on dealing with dialects in translation. The translation article mentions dialects in its "problems" section, but it has not been expanded on. Ka-ru 05:30, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Tag

The tag User:Just H has put up reads "The factual accuracy of this article is disputed". What fact on the page are you disputing? Mackan 22:27, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

It's not any one fact, but the entire article itself, since there has been an edit war recently. If the Kansai-ben in anime section can be placed back without incessant edit warring, I have no fear that the edit warring won't return, and that the tag can go since this is what consensus has found.Just H 02:50, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that is the correct tag. No one seems to be disputing the factual accuracy of the information already in the article. Dekimasuよ! 04:28, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps the neutrality tag might be better. Just H 23:35, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the spirit behind the tags, but I think a "lacks references" tag is more appropriate. The entire article is bereft of footnotes and in-text citation. Footnotes on the more controversial statements would dramatically improve the article. -- Exitmoose 06:44, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the current tags. Mackan 17:53, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

...Yet "Just H" decides to revert them without deeming it necessary to provide any rationale. Mackan 19:37, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

"Just H" is a banned user. I suggest we move on and not focus so much on his edits, which seemed to be obsessively linked to anime translation and out-of-scope of the Kansai-ben article. --Gar2chan 05:15, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion

Why don't you write about 河内弁/kawachi-ben in Osaka-ben topic?

Additional from a Japanese. You did not write the formal form. As for ‘へん’,　compare‘行きません’ and ‘行きまへん’. I consider ‘行きまへん’ is a S-dropped form of the standerd ‘行きません’. Sorry that I'm not a kansai-ben user. But if I could help, I will. --Oda Mari 10:09, 9 May 2007 (UTC) 　

There is a paragraph that mentions the polite form: "A frequent occurrence in Kansai-ben is the use of h in place of s in suffices and inflections. Some palatalization of s is apparent in most Kansai speakers, but it seems to have progressed further in morphological suffices than in core vocabulary. This process has produced the Kansai -han for Standard -san, -mahen for -masen, and -mahyo for -mashō, among other examples. In casual speech, the negative verb ending, which is -nai in Standard Japanese, is often expressed with -hen, as in ikahen "not going", which is ikanai in Standard Japanese." But the -mahen form is actually uncommon (except as a joke), don't you think?

I believe the reason that there isn't information on 河内弁 is that we aren't knowledgeable enough on the subject, and perhaps it lacks English-language sources. All that comes to my mind about it is that it's known as one of the strongest dialects. This is the only information about it on the Japanese Wikipedia: "大阪府東部の河内地域の方言。南北でかなり差異があり、北河内地域では北摂地域と同じく、京都弁との類似も見られる。河内弁全体としては以下の特徴がある。 疑問文、あとを受ける肯定文とも最後に使う助詞「か」が、「け」になる。（例文：そうけ？　そうけ。） 「われ」を二人称の意味で用いる。" Dekimasuよ! 04:41, 10 May 2007 (UTC)