Talk:Star Wars

this article should be retitled Star Wars (series)

The first film's title is Star Wars. This is the title under which it came out, received massive popularity, was nominated for awards, and started the whole cult (and no, it doesn't matter what Lucas may have intended the title to be originally. the whole "episode" thing was more of a tongue in cheek homage before he actually got rich enough to put it into reality). When someone searches for Star Wars today, it is likely they probably mean the first one. It's only fanboys who call it "Episode IV: A New Hope". Wikipedia should redirect Star Wars to the page for "A New Hope", and the general material should be linked at the top of the page in a disambiguation.

Not that it matters- or that anything related to this topic does. 172.148.185.131 18:18, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

good point, many people, including wikiedians believe they are jedi, see Jedi census phenomenon

However with all that said this article I belive should not be retitled Star Wars (series). as it covers other star wars things. Like real life things not just things in the star wars world Leapster 00:40, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

No. The first film is not "Star Wars." It was later retitled to "A new hope." --66.139.11.116 00:57, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that the article should be retitled. When people search for "Star Wars", they are most likely searching for general information on it. If they need to go to the article about the movie, it's just one link away. I think you can reach the article without having to scroll down for the link. =] Jedi_feline | Talk 08:17, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

fremen is not jedi but tuskens

the femen of duna are not analogous to the jedi (they do not form some sort of knighthood) they are quite comparable to the tusken raiders, though —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 137.205.232.3 (talk) 12:14, 19 December 2006 (UTC).

The Fremen become a religious order made up of a significant degree of mysticism and ritual whilst also exerting makor influence over the galaxy. Also Paul Muad'Dib is similar to a Jedi in his abilities and his prescience. Tuskens are disorganised animals, the Fremen are a highly civilised society. The links to the Jedi are far greater than those to the Tuskens and the most immportant link is Paul, and his abilities. (Sorry if the above is disorganised, I'm kind of tired and don't know how to sign this thing with date/time etc, sorry) Leto - 30.12.06

The Fremen are a people, not an order. Paul is not a Fremen. Tuskens wear technologically advanced equipment to save and preserve water; this is based on the stillsuits of the sand people in Dune.

If you want a Dune equivalent to the Jedi (ruling galaxy by mysticism etc.), it would be the Bene Gesserit

Citation in Parodies

According to the Wiki page on the movie "Hardware Wars" there is a 1999 interviw with George Lucas in which he states that it is his favorite parody. Obviously not a citation to cite to wiki. Could the author of the Hardware Wars article provide the proper citation, please?

I added the info about Carrie Fisher in an SNL skit as an Annette Funicello like bikini clad girl singing "The Obi Wan Kenobi" I have the VHS of the episode at home, do I need to ref the specific episode? 69.25.108.3 12:47, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

it would be nice Leapster 18:05, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

NPOV

• "Lucas has been criticized for allegedly deviating from his original conception of the universe that was introduced in the original 1977 film. It has been theorized by some that developments in the later films, including (but not limited to) the revelation of Darth Vader as the father of Luke Skywalker, the revelation of Princess Leia as Luke's sister, and the progression of Darth Vader from a powerful lackey serving under Grand Moff Tarkin to a much-feared military leader answerable only to the Emperor (as well as the overall Star Wars Saga's shift in focus from Luke to Vader as the main character) go completely against the history/characters/relationships that were established in the original 1977 film. The Star Wars prequel trilogy has also been accused of similar retroactive changes that were allegedly not part of Lucas' original concept for Star Wars."

and that is just a small part. I feel the over the past little bet this page has lost its NPOV for a more anti lucas feeling.Leapster 18:11, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

• • I disagree it states that "Lucas has been criticized for allegedly deviating from his original conception of the universe ..." that merely says that some people have criticized his shifts in his stories and does not attack Lucas it merely reports that Lucas has been attacked.Cylonhunter 04:50, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

• • • But no References are given, as of who has criticized him for this. and it just doesnt happen there it happens though out this whole articleLeapster 12:19, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
• The quoted section should not be preserved without a specific (and noteworthy) citation. --Dystopos 14:25, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
  • • • Very Well I was not aware of the full details until recently sorry to bother youCylonhunter 17:19, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Innacuracy -Music Section-Weird Al's Song

As far as I know (according, i think, to other parts of wikipedia) Weird Al [i]didn't[/i] do the Yoda song, it just gets attributed to him. He did, however, do Star Wars - The Saga Begins, a parody of American Pie. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.232.248.162 (talk) 22:55, 22 January 2007 (UTC).

"Yoda" is track 5 on Weird Al's album Dare to be Stupid. There is no inaccuracy. PurplePlatypus 05:09, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

128.232.248.162, maybe the song you're thinking of is "Livin' La Vida Yoda" the parody of "Livin' La Vida Loca." I thought it was a Weird Al song but it's not, according to this site: http://free.house.cx/~eil/etc/notal.html Jedi_feline | Talk 08:22, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Neutrality of External Link Section (was: Nitpickers Guide to Star Wars Web Site)

Debate is about the External Links site and whether the rules are being applied fairly. Debate arose when this web site was added to External Links: http://www.chefelf.com/starwars/ep1.php

User "A Man In Black" reverted my edit where I added "Chef Elf's Nitpickers Guide to Star Wars - A controversial but amusing analysis of the Star Wars movies." User "A Man In Black" gave no reason for removing this, and has not contributed to this article before. The Chef Elf site is well known in the Star Wars community. He gives a very thorough analysis of every Star Wars movie, point-by-point and it's become a bible of sorts. I think it's an important contribution that Wiki should link to. Since "A Man In Black" seems to be a hit-and-run reverter and gave no reason, I would like to reinstate that link. Toru-chan 09:32, 23 January 2007 (UTC) I will now unrevert the change. I will edit the label to make its significance clear. Toru-chan 01:14, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

This site doesn't add anything particularly useful or interesting. Please keep in mind that Wikipedia is not Google/not a directory of all the sites related to a particular subject. --EEMeltonIV 05:08, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Am going to have to agree this isnt google the links that are there some questionable are there because they add to whats already said, they dont give "controversial but amusing analysis of the Star Wars movies". If you want to add that link add it to this site if its not already there http://dmoz.org/arts/movies/titles/s/star_wars_movies/. Leapster 14:03, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

A Man in Black is a Wikipedia administrator - hardly a hit-and-run reverter, and has, in fact, contributed to this article before - many times, all before Toru-chan created an account less than two weeks ago. Also, as long-time Star Wars fan, and as a staff member at TheForce.Net, I've never heard of the site in question. Futhermore, a google search on Chefelf +nitpicker only brings back 24 or so unique returns, so it's obviously not *that* controversial, given the low number of mentions. I'm going to side with A Man in Black on this one. TheRealFennShysa 15:57, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Try searching under its better known but more contentious name: "Reasons to Hate Star Wars" and you'll get 1,580 Google hits. Did you really look at that article, or simply disagree with it? Listen to yourselves. You're carrying on like a bunch of petty tin gods. I watched the movie back in 1977 the same you did TheRealFennShya, but you've basically declared yourself A Greater Authority(tm). As for your 'two weeks' jab, I'm not going to get into a peeing competition with you. I'll leave you to rule your little patch. EEMeltonIV: I understand the reasons you give, and note a similar 'comprehensive listing' entry was removed from the Links too. So long as the rules are consistently enforced, I'm cool with that. As for the rest of you: You're flaunting the rules and spirit of Wikipedia, and you need to Grow Up. Toru-chan 13:19, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Toru-chan "Reasons to Hate Star Wars" is that a link an encyclopedia should have?Leapster 14:06, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Why not, Leapster? Wikipedia is supposed to be impartial and *not* take sides. Now that I look at it, you guys are hypocritical in enforcing the rules. You dismiss the ChefElf articles as neither amusing or significant, yet allow a two page "National Geographic News: So how believable is the Star Wars galaxy?" which says a lot less. You tell me Wiki isn't a directory a web sites, yet allow TheForce.Net to be listed there, ostensibly because it's "(one of) the oldest fan sites" (just where does it say *that* in the rules?), which TheRealFennShysa happens to proudly boast to me he's a Staff Member of. As for "A Man in Black" he reverted my contribution without explanation. I don't care if TheRealFennShya thinks he's a Wiki God, it's still poor form. So basically, you guys delete anything you disagree with or weren't personally involved in. You are applying the rules inconsistently, and favouring your own content over that of others. Toru-chan 14:23, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Not at all I dont think most of those linsk should be there. add a section and Reference this site. I dont think any links should be here other then the star wars main site. so calm down ok. am not attacking you or the whats on the site you want to link k?Leapster 14:43, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry Leapster. I wasn't meaning to flame *you*. Site in question is this http://www.chefelf.com/starwars/ep1.php (he actually has analysis for every movie and the TV special) There seems to be a lot of subjectivity in what External Links sites are worthy of this web page and what aren't. The rules need to be applied fairly. Your suggestion may be a good compromise, because there's far too much subjectivity in choosing which of many fan sites to include (particularly by the fans that run the ones already listed :-). Toru-chan 02:20, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually, when you do a Google search on "Reasons to Hate Star Wars", the actual returns you get is only 83 unique on 135. You can believe what you want, Toru-chan, but when you claim that something is well-known, don't get all up in a huff when people refute that claim. The difference between National Geographic, TFN, and the ChefElf site comes down to notability. The first two are clearly notable (it's friggin' National Geographic, and TFN is undoubtedly the largest fan site out there, working with Lucasfilm in many areas) while the ChefElf site is not, at this time. The rules have been applied quite consistently and fairly, regardless of whether you agree with that assessment or not. TheRealFennShysa 16:18, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

TheRealFennShysa, if you want to use that logic lets look at the "National Geographic News: So how believable is the Star Wars galaxy?" link. It has only 33 Google hits, and only *ten* unique hits. So using your (new) Google-unique-hits-rule, that shouldn't be listed either. You describe that it as "notable". It's a two-page fluff piece where they talk about things like "Why doesn't Obi-won sweat on the volcano planet?" ChefElf does this and a much more thorough job on this and the planetspheres. Who makes you the arbiter of what's notable and what isn't? Where in the Wiki rules does it say fluff-pieces in the mainstream media are linkworthy, but serious analysis by fans isn't? Same with your TheForce.net link. You tell me why an exception should be made for a web site *you* pronounced you're a Staff Member of, which, hate to break it to you, isn't as famous as you might like to think. You're making up the rules as you go (your ever changing Google analysis shows that) to suit your own biases. ChefElf was on Entertainment Weekly by the way (or is there a rule that EW doesn't count? ;-)

You are sprouting your credentials like your opinion is worth more than anyone else's, including mine. This is Wikipedia. Your opinion counts no more or less than any other fan of the movies, or for that matter anyone who has seen the movies and wants to contribute to the article. Your cabal has effectively declared this web page to be your own, locked it and are wikisquatting. Wiki says "If you don't like having your work edited by others, you shouldn't write for Wiki". But this is exactly what you are stopping. This article is not your own personal fan page.

The value of the ChefElf articles is that they criticize without denigrating into Lucas Bashing. For that reason I considered them a worthwhile addition to this page, in the interests of impartiality. Wikipedia is supposed to tell both sides. You're making up rules as you to keep your stuff there, but exclude whatever you don't personally like. Rules should be applied fairly and consistently across all Wikipedia. Now if it's not suitable, that's one thing, but let's be consistent.

For these reasons I dispute the neutrality of this article. Wikipedia is supposed to impartial, fair, unbiased. I've been editing wiki anonymously for years. I've written whole articles. Disputes are usually solved fairly, with all parties agreeing the spirit of Wikipedia has been met. If someone thinks they're becoming too emotional, they step back and ask an impartial editor to make the change for them. I have never seen anything like I have on this page!

You say to me "The rules have been applied quite consistently and fairly, regardless of whether you agree with that assessment or not." I think that sums up why I think this page is biased. Toru-chan 02:20, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

You seem to be under the impression, or seem to be trying to make the impression, that I was the one who was deleting your link. I never once did so - I did, however, point out the errors in your original post on this page about A Man in Black's status and edit history, while agreeing with his actions. Furthermore, there is no "cabal", and no one has declared ownership of the article, although people have tried, and failed, in the past. For your bluster about Wikipedia's neutrality and my supposed inconsistencies, believe what you will, but if there's one thing my edit history will show is that I have always been the one arguing for an unbiased presentation in articles - and your claims that I've "made up rules" to keep my own stuff on here is patently false.

I'm surprised by the Google returns on the National Geograhic article, but again, I was never the one who added it. It doesn't need to be there, and now isn't.

However, you yourself just said that If someone thinks they're becoming too emotional, they step back and ask an impartial editor to make the change for them - I think you should take your own advice. TheRealFennShysa 04:42, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I will take my own advice. I spoke to ChefElf and he said he's fine with it in the Lucas Bashing section. I hate Lucas Bashing, and I hate to lump it in with that, but so be it. My comments about the bias of this article and how external links are chosen stand (See above posts). I sure as hell wouldn't dare touch this article again. Toru-chan 05:05, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Expanded Universe

In the books section it says that Splinter of the Mind's Eye was "very nearly" the first book dealing with the expanded universe. This implies that something else was first. Can anyone clarify? Cris Varengo 20:01, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

It is the first written, but wasn't released at this time. Later, after the novels made tons of sells, they re-introduced it. Barraki 16:09, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't know, I have a pretty clear memory (although I was pretty little) of seeing that book in a store before the 2nd movie even came out... Cris Varengo 22:20, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Confusing the 1997 special editions to the 2004 DVD editions

On the article of each movie of the original trilogy states that they were re-released on VHS,laserdisc and DVD.This is not true.The 1997 special editions never came to DVD.The 2004 DVD editions are different from the 1997 special editions because of many significant changes.I corrected the article,but I just wanted to let everyone understand the difference so the same mistake is not repeated again.Thanks.Nadirali نادرالی

• I can see what you were talking about with Return of the Jedi, which you corrected. However, I'm afraid I'm not seeing what you're talking about with the other two articles. I think that you can be bold and change them yourself. If I disagree, I'll let you know. The Filmaker 17:11, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

yeah I think that EMpire was already corrected by you.I'm not sure about episode four as I haven't checked it yet.--Nadirali نادرالی

can we address the strong issue of canon and have a link

we need to question the new movies and the series New jedi order.

Joseph Campbell doubted as a significant inflence on Star Wars

As reported by [Salon] Joseph Cambell's ties to Star Wars are tenuous. If it were up to me I would remove the references to Campbell from this and related articles (such as the Darth Vader article). But people like the idea that Star Wars was intentionally modeled after Campbell's work so this is unlikely to happen... however you still might want to change the wording to acknowledge the disagreement. --Logomachist 00:56, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

As far as I know, Campbell's works may have been the original inspiration for "the Force." The idea of the 'force' in the original three movies very much complies with the more legendary concepts of 氣, "qi" or "chi." I don't know if Lucas had any other source of information on Oriental mythologies. If anyone has more information about this, I think it would be very enlightening, although citations would be necessary for the Wikipedia article.

A Tai-Chi teacher of many many years ago claimed that his teacher's teacher (may have been Cheng Man-ch'ing) was a consultant for George Lucas and actually provided inspiration for the Yoda character. This seems unlikely, but... Mr. Lucas might have had some contact with actual Chinese Tai-Chi/Qi-Gong master(s), and may have incorporated some characteristics. Cuvtixo 19:11, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

The Dark Side and "The Light Side" (?)

In The Empire Strikes Back, Luke asks Yoda "But how am I to know the good side from the bad?", referring the dual sides of the Force. I believe this is the only time, in any of the films, that the "good side" of the Force is referred to. The clear connotation by most characters who use the term "the Force" is that the term refers to the "good" side by default, unless specifically qualified as the Dark Side. Dh67 19:27, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

What is the name of the "the Light Side"? The Dark Side has become such a significant part of Star Wars lore that it has become commonplace in pop culture. But what is the correct term for the opposite? I don't recall ever hearing that in any of the films, and my Star Wars canon knowledge is lacking - er, that is, non-existent. If anyone knows, please cite a reputable source, something that is accepted as part of the Star Wars canon. --Bentonia School 16:31, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Young Jedi Knights: Shadow Academy Barraki 23:09, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Cool, thanks, but I meant if someone could actually tell me the name of the "Light Side" as referred to in a reliable canon source. I'll take your word for it that Young Jedi Knights: Shadow Academy is a reliable source, but I'm most likely not going to buy it and read it. So, what does it cite the "Light Side" as? --Bentonia School 17:02, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I meant they do use the term "Light Side". Barraki 22:37, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Awesome. Thanks. --Bentonia School 05:48, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

I believe that the "light side" is actually only referred to as "The Force." This is consistent since Jedi would likely believe that the "Dark Side" is a weaker, inferior counterpart of the legitimate, "Force," and the Good will always eventually defeat the evil dark side in the end. The conception of a "dark side" being equal to light, and therefore the need to call the counterpart "light," instead of just-"The Force," would likely be provenance of Sith. Actually my understanding comes from a very real debate in Christianity about Manichaeism. I believe George Lucas could have been influenced by those ideas, even if he were not aware of the history or scholarly work, although I am unaware of the backgrounds of other authors in the star wars 'verse. Cuvtixo 19:44, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Going just by the movies, there is no "light" or "good" side. There is just the Force, of which the so-called "Dark Side" is a subset, but it does not follow that the Force has two equal and opposite halves or anything of the sort. The only character who implies otherwise at any point in the films, as mentioned above, is Luke in Empire, at a point where it's clear he doesn't know what the hell he's talking about. This is my preferred picture and the only one I believe is supportable from just the movies. But it's clear that much of the "lesser" cannon is written by people who disagree. This is made especially explicit in Knights of the Old Republic. I consider this a serious wrong turn for the Star Wars franchise, but it's what's out there. PurplePlatypus 19:58, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Stamps

Don't know if it's mentioned, there are new Star Wars stamps being made. I saw the article on MSNBC.com: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17838341/ —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.31.45.49 (talk) 01:16, 29 March 2007 (UTC).

succesfsul film???

We should change where it says in the beginning of this article that it is one of the most successful movie franchises of all time and say it is the most successful movie franchise of all time. 20 billion dolars. Lord of the rings nor Spiderman has made nearly that much. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Timsgotaim (talk • contribs) 04:22, 10 May 2007 (UTC).

Look, I'm your father of profits!

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,270874,00.html

"And here's a little news: Lucas tells me he will make two more live-action films based in the "Star Wars" era. "But they won't have members of the Skywalker family as characters," he said. "They will be other people of that milieu." The two extra films will also be made for TV and probably be an hour long each. But, like "Clone Wars," Lucas doesn't know where on TV they will land. Hello, HBO and Showtime. It may be time to pony up." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.131.210.162 (talk) 13:58, 11 May 2007 (UTC).

A Major Relationship Overlooked?

I think there is a rather large blindspot in the Star Wars story line that few people have discussed and is directly addressed in the dialog: Palpatine basically tells Anakin he is his father. I realize this is speculation, but I think it is pretty reasonable to ask what folks think of the theory. This may not be the place, but maybe someone can help me find a more appropriate place to move this short article?

The idea draws some intriguing parallels to the Vader vs. Luke plot; relates to the Greek mythology aspects of the Star Wars universe; and goes a long way towards explaining why Lucas would do something as controversial as including an Immaculate Conception in his script for Episode I. Read this scene closely to see what I mean:

REVENGE OF THE SITH: CORUSCANT-GALAXIES OPERA HOUSE-NIGHT

PALPATINE: (continuing) Did you ever hear the tragedy of Darth Plagueis "the wise"?
ANAKIN: No.
PALPATINE: I thought not. It's not a story the Jedi would tell you. It's a Sith legend. Darth Plagueis was a Dark Lord of the Sith, so powerful and so wise he could use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create life ... He had such a knowledge of the dark side that he could even keep the ones he cared about from dying.
ANAKIN: He could actually save people from death?
PALPATINE: The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural.
ANAKIN: What happened to him?
PALPATINE: He became so powerful . . . the only thing he was afraid of was losing his power, which eventually, of course, he did. Unfortunately, he taught his apprentice everything he knew, then his apprentice killed him in his sleep. (smiles) Plagueis never saw it coming. It's ironic he could save others from death, but not himself.
ANAKIN: Is it possible to learn this power?
PALPATINE: Not from a Jedi.

Kenmikemark 18:28, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Spoiler tag

As the article seems to be undergoing revert war of sorts right now, perhaps we should discuss the issue here before making any more changes. Given the level of detail of the plot summary, I think that a spoiler tag is justified. I don't really see a good reason not to have one, other than aesthetics, perhaps.Chunky Rice 19:14, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

What kind of content do you expect in a section that is called "Plot"? Kusma (talk) 19:20, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Something like the first couple sentences. A broad overview of what the series was about. More or less the same information you'd get from a blurb or a movie trailer. Not a blow by blow account like the one that we have.Chunky Rice 19:24, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Then what would be a better section title? Kusma (talk) 19:25, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand the question. I think that the section title is appropriate, but that the content is excessive. Especially since each movie has it's own plot section. Regardless, that's not the issue at hand here. I wanted to try and establish a consensus on spoiler tags and all I'm saying is that if we are going to include plot information beyond a basic overview, a spoiler tag is appropriate.Chunky Rice 19:27, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

In that case it seems the solution you'd find optimal would be to trim the detail, not to put up a spoiler flag. There are, after all, spoilers for the movie in other sections of the article -- those aren't being flagged. How about take a weed-whacker to the plot section and trim it to the essentials; save the extraneous detail for the individual episode articles (if anywhere at all). --EEMeltonIV 19:31, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I'd be fine with that as a reasonable resolution. I'll let this discussion percolate for a while, but I'd be happy to knock the plot summary down to a reasonable size/content if there aren't significant objections.Chunky Rice 19:35, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

• I second the motion to condense the plot section. I will add that there is not a consensus on the need for spoiler warnings, merely a consensus on how to apply them should they be deemed appropriate. In my opinion, they detract from the purpose of an encyclopedia (although I wouldn't personally remove them without discussion) --Dystopos 20:03, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I'm divin' in.Chunky Rice 16:21, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Knocked it down to the intro paragraph which seemed to sum it up nicely. Looking at the rest of the article, though, there's a lot of rampant original research going on here. I'm going to try to remove the most egregious bits.Chunky Rice 16:43, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

May the force of others be with you. --Dystopos 16:48, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

dvd.starwars.com

You need the DVD to access it - does anyone know what's there?

Good Article Review

This article has been listed at the good article review process for possible delisting of its good article status, due to WP:MOS issues, a lead that doesn't pass WP:LEAD, citation issues, fair use images without properly detailed fair use rationales, and instability. Please assume good faith and work to improve the article. -Malkinann 07:43, 21 May 2007 (UTC)