Talk:Pedophile movement

Psychological Effects

When reading this article, I noticed there was a bit about the activists' questioning of psychological harm, but I saw very little info on any actual scientifice research on the topic (I think the only evidence was described as "anecdotal"). Anyone know of any info on this? I don't happen to be a psychologist/victim of pedophilia myself, but I would be rather surprised if there was much data lying around saying it produced no effects.

NPOV

This page needs a lot of work to get it up to scratch re our POV policies. Merging into anti-pedophile activism would be a start, SqueakBox 20:59, 4 June 2007 (UTC) SqueakBox 20:59, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I dispute a lot of the statements in this article. Yes, merging it with the "anti-pedophilia activism" article would be a good first step. Lots of work is needed here. BTW, the totally disputed tag should stay. DPeterson^talk 21:06, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Look, I understand that you find the article to be problematic in its current form, but "this article needs a lot of work" is not a reason to place the TotallyDisputed tag. I am removing the tag because no one has made it clear why it should be there. Please note that I have not even read the article myself, so it's not as though I disagree with you or have an opinion one way or the other about the content. The point is that the template is being used inappropriately. Please discern the specific items, themes or concepts that are "totally disputed". Joie de Vivre 22:36, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I was being polite when I said the article needs a lot of work...to be blunt, many of the statements here are POV, without Wikipedia:Verifiability support, and wrong. The tag belongs and work can proceed to improve the article...or we can just argue about the tag...I, for one, would prefer to move on with fixing this article. DPeterson^talk 00:09, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

The tag is not being used inappropriately, indeed I have rarely seen a more appropriate use of it, especially given the recent history of the article that perhaps you are unaware of, Joie, SqueakBox 00:15, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

That is exactly the problem. Anyone just joining in cannot discern why the TotallyDisputed template is in use, because no one has explained. That is the problem. Please elucidate what you think the problems are and what you think needs to be changed about this article, in order to justify the use of the template. Joie de Vivre 01:17, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

WEll they could try reading the article, SqueakBox 02:01, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I have asked why the template was placed, what the problems are and what needs to be done to rectify the problems. Squeakbox has become rude (above) and Dpeterson reverted without comment. I don't see what can be done at this point. Joie de Vivre 01:20, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Please stop disrupting this page. if you want to help create a better article that would be fantastic but until then stop making demands on other editors time and energy, SqueakBox 02:01, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Please, Joie de Vivre, avoid Personal attacks. We should focus on the content of this diputed article. The content is under dispute as the editing history and revert history shows. Now, it would be more productive to spend our time improving the article rather than arguing about the tag. My comments and reasoning are stated above. You certainly may disagree with me and prefer I argue differently, but I stand by my statements. If there is a consensus that I am wrong, so be it, but I don't see that on this page about this issue. DPeterson^talk 02:11, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I disagree that I have done any such thing. I have asked politely many times for an explanation as to the use of the template. Instead there has been name-calling and accusations of trolling. I am really not sure how to proceed if requests for explanation result in persecution.

It is not a personal attack to express that I believe that someone is being rude, by saying "this person was rude", and nothing more. Joie de Vivre 02:23, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Given your behaviour on my user talk page and here I find it hard to believe you have any good faith intentions here. The accusations of trolling are based entirely on your behaviour on my user talk page. We are working hard to get an NPOV article and once that happens, assuming it does without encountering the kind of stiff opposition we hasve encountered very recently then the tag will be removed. You dont have the right to demnad we ex[plain ourselves ad nauseam, SqueakBox 02:29, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Guys, guys, guys!! Joie de Vivre is not one of the heads of the hydra come back again. The template is still there, but there's no evidence of the POV pushers around. Talk is all archived, so there's nothing to see (except 12 pages of archives -- which indicates there's been a lot of fighting). Joie, the editors at this and other pedophilia related pages can get testy sometimes because of the endless trolling that's gone on here and on other pages for a long time. SqueakBox and DPeterson^talk can both be argumentative, which has been an asset under the prior circumstances, and will be again next time another troll comes along. I think you know that several relentless POV pushing editors have been banned indefinitely, as well as sockpuppets of those users who've been back to deliberately cause trouble. People are taking a deep breath, but there's still a lot of history to overcome, and a defensive stance is sometimes hard to let go. There are a lot of issues that were challenged left on the page. The existence of the page itself was roundly contested. There are other pages that need work too. It's hard to get to every problem, everywhere at once. I do not blame them for not wanting to outline all the POV issues that remain right now--bleah--but I also don't think it's wrong of you to ask why the template is still there but nothing is going on with the page. Now I hope I haven't pissed off both sides by getting in the middle here, but we all need each other and it would be nice not to fight for a change and finally get these articles cleaned up. -Jmh123 03:06, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. I understand the history of this page better now. Joie de Vivre 03:36, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Come on! What good logical reason is there to merge this with the anti article? We're talking different movements, here. It's already big enough with the (disputed) merge with the history article, and the anti page is barely a stub, with lots of work to do, IMO. (f a b i a n) 15:51, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Third opinion

Someone posted a plea on Wikipedia:Third opinion about the TotallyDisputed tag. Having read the discussion, it sounds like the problem is resolved; i.e. this article still contains a history of issues that had been challenged in previous archived discussions and those issues haven't been addressed. If that is the case, then the TotallyDisputed tag should stay. Perhaps someone could go through the archives (ugh, what a lot of work that looks like) and list the remaining issues that had been challenged, so that they might be addressed. -Amatulic 20:11, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Fabian discussion

**Please revert your 3RR violation. Personal discussion does not belong on this page**

• • What is this above? there is no 3rr violation, SqueakBox 17:39, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

A few days ago, this article was merged with the history article. Although the user who merged it claimed that the (weak) consensus in favour of keeping the articles apart had changed, I found no discussion indicative of such a consensus. (f a b i a n) 17:50, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

The opposers all got banned, and as their views now dont count a clear consensus was indeed a reality, SqueakBox 17:39, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Fabian is another SPA with contribs dating back to Junne 5, SqueakBox 16:17, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

What makes you so confident that I'm an SPA? Even if I am, you better read WP:SPA (f a b i a n) 16:30, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Your contribs and the history of this article, SqueakBox 16:33, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

The fact you know about SPA's etc makes me wonder whose sock you are, SqueakBox 16:43, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Lets have a proper vote or discussion on merging

A few days ago, this article was merged with the history article. Although the user who merged it claimed that the (weak) consensus in favour of keeping the articles apart had changed, I found no discussion indicative of such a consensus.

Personally, I believe that the articles should be kept apart, as per the same reasons suggested in the last discussion I found on this issue. (f a b i a n) 10:24, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

As you can see it was 3 permanently blocked users and one user who changed his name before being permanently blocked in his new name who opposed the merge so I felyt it right to ignore their opinions and thus there was a consensus for the move, SqueakBox 17:56, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

So let's have this discussion, now that the merge tag in on Anti-pedophile activism. The proposal is, in effect, to move some of the content of Pro-pedophile activism into the anti article, and then redirecting pro to anti. I would have two comments: 1) it seems the resulting article should be called "Pedophile activism", since it presumably would be about both directions, 2) why merge, when the resulting article is likely to be quite large? Discuss. --Askild 22:09, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Let's fix the article

There is a lot of bickering and infighting going on here; which is not productive. I think it would be better if we all were to focus our energy on fixing the article instead.

Part of the problem is that what needs to happen is not clear. I think a good first step would be to identify the problems that need to be fixed. Joie de Vivre 20:21, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to see the article merged into anti-pedophile activism and then that whole article can be written in a strictly NPOV fashion. This article tends to glorify pedophilia and make it somehow seem alright which is not a neutral perception. I see no evidence of in-fighting or bickering going on and am surprised that you would make such a comment, SqueakBox 20:24, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for communicating; this is good. I understand your concern that the existence of this could be construed as giving credibility to the concept. I certainly have seen many articles that are very WP:SOAP-y, and use the existence of the article as a platform for espousing certain views. See Feminists for Life; it is pretty darn sudsy by my account. I understand the frustration, so let's look at how we can fix the problem.

As far as whether the existence of the article itself is POV; I don't think it is; the reason is that there are many articles written about social groups that are considered terribly unsavory. That an article's subject is widely considered unsavory is not usually reason to merge the article elsewhere. Neo-nazi, for instance, is not merged to Nazi or Holocaust for glorifying Nazism. It is a discrete concept and brought towards NPOV on its own, in its own article.

As WP:NPOV is required for all parts of all articles, I think a better way in which to approach this would be to bring this article towards NPOV, on its own, before discussing a merger. The content has to be NPOV regardless of whether it is its own article or part of another article. I think merging before we have brought it to NPOV is not a good approach, because therefore we dump a lot of material that needs work into another article, creating a bigger mess.

I think NPOV should be the first goal. Rather than getting caught up in where it should be, I think we should focus on the content and bringing that to an encyclopedic standard first. We can certainly make it clear that the movement is widely considered offensive (as is done with Neo-Nazi). I think we should work towards NPOV within this article.

Thoughts? Joie de Vivre 21:13, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Certainly dont object to your approach, SqueakBox 21:16, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I think it's important that this article be NPOV and properly balanced. Criticism of the pro-pedophile movement should be included here but that doesn't mean we have to merge the "anti-" article at this time. For example, groups like Perverted Justice are anti-pedophile but they are not chief critics of the pro-pedophile movement. Also, we need to coordinate this article with Age of consent reform better, as there is some overlap. ·:·Will Beback ·:· 21:31, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Removed individuals listed as supporters

There were a number of individuals who were listed as being supporters of pedophilia, without supporting references. Unsourced assertions of this nature should not be allowed to remain for one moment, regardless of whether they are true. I am investigating the truthfulness of these claims and will add them back if sources are found. Joie de Vivre 21:19, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Whilst I personally think that this is silly, you will find proof within the aricles for the people themselves. Good luck, and please don't take too long over it 153.19.178.28 23:35, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Refs

We have 101 and only 96 are turning up. Can someone better at these things than me please fix it? SqueakBox 21:50, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

They are all there; one thing you can do to check is to go to the last reference, and click on the little carat (^). That will direct you immediately to the place on the page that the reference is used, and it will highlight it as well. (At least it does on my Windows machine with Firefox). Joie de Vivre 00:07, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry I should've posted on talk--it was a coding error, which I fixed that day. -Jmh123 01:35, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Why must we refer to DSM?

Why should we do this in the opening couple of paragraphs? The DSM bears little relation to activism, and it just seems like we're listing "negative things" against pedophile activism, because we foolishly think that it "balances" the article (when it actually introduces subjectivity galore) 153.19.178.28 23:50, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

With ref. to Mr Petersen, your revert was kind of a broadsweep on all the changes that I had done (as if the lot were vandalism or something). Surely not all are reverts? 153.19.178.28 23:54, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

You are a new user with a controversial special interest and a perspective you apparently wish for the article to convey. Normally on pages that are controversial, edits are discussed on the talk page first. -Jmh123 23:58, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I just added a tag to this page to underscore and suppor twhat Jmh123 said. DPeterson^talk 00:21, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Is DP willing to discuss why exactly my edits are inferior? 153.19.178.28 01:51, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Regarding your question, it makes sense to present the existing view of pedophilia, as represented by objective, mainstream sources like the DSM, that the activists are working to change. They are not acting in a vacuum. The alternative to DSM would be to represnt the often cruder viewpoints of pedophilia held by less professional commentators. - ·:·Will Beback ·:· 02:28, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

In response to anon user, I don't think your edits are inferior. I do think that that the points made by Jmh123 and Will Bebecak address your concerns. DPeterson^talk 13:02, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Let's fix the article (round II)

Hi, all. So, it looks like we actually got somewhere in the section titled #Let's fix the article as far as determining what to do; we had several editors in agreement that bringing this article to NPOV was a good first step. The momentum was lost before any changes were made, so let's get it going again. Currently the {{totally disputed}} tag is still up, but we haven't identified what content should be changed in order to bring this article to NPOV. I actually don't see much that is explicitly POV; the material is presented in terms of what the activists do, say, and believe, i.e. "this is what they do", "this is what they believe". It is not used as a platform for espousing or legitimizing personal views as far as I see. However, Squeakbox had advocated for including the template, so I thought that perhaps he could outline the things that need changing most. It's not good to leave an article hanging around in a state of dispute, so let's fix it. Joie de Vivre 13:44, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

OK, it's been a couple of days. I'm removing the totallydisputed tag. If someone wants to put it back, they should explain why it is there and what needs to be changed in order to bring the article to NPOV. Joie de Vivre 11:33, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

The article continues to strongly favor and "normalize" child sexual abuse and the molestation of children. DPeterson^talk 12:18, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

For example, sections in the research section. DPeterson^talk 12:21, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

There is no section called Research, I really don't know where you mean. Please be more specific about what information is problematic and what needs to be done to bring the article to NPOV. Saying "it's legitimizing pedophilia" does not help bring the article to NPOV, we need to outline specific changes. Joie de Vivre 12:33, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

"Scientific Claims," Sorry about the miscue there. Also see: "Papers supporting some activist opinions" Too much there of questionable valdity. DPeterson^talk 17:26, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

It's OK, thanks for clarifying. Good, we've identified two areas that should be addressed. OK, if these are of questionable validity, how do you want to demonstrate that? Can you introduce any contextual arguments, i.e. similar studies that refute the claims? Should they be removed altogether? Would a Criticism section at the end help? Just throwing out ideas here. Joie de Vivre 17:35, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Joie de Vivre is right to point out that we need a more concrete reason to remove the said references to and summaries of said studies from the article. The papers currently referenced within the article appear to be legit. There is no doubt that a great deal of mainstream research will disgree with the findings of these works. However, the text clearly states that studies used by pro-pedophile activists to support their position generally criticize mainstream research findings, and suggest that there are ways to improve on the way mainstream research is conducted. However, since this article is specifically about pro-pedophile activism and its rationale, it makes sense to concentrate on the research that pro-pedophile activists utilize within their movement. Articles that deal with mainstream research into child sexual abuse are accordingly found within the article on that subject. Thus, in my opinion, the "Scientific Claims" and "Papers supporting some activist opinions" sections should stay as they are, unless more specific rationale is provided to support changes within the corresponding text.Homologeo 05:55, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

My problem is it is still not clear why the TotallyDisputed template is in place. I understand that the topic is upsetting, but we have upsetting articles all over the place, Torture, Fascism. I just want to get this article to NPOV. We can't just slap an orange warning label on this one because we don't like it. That isn't what the template is for. If we can write a neutral article on Global warming, we can do it here too. I am still waiting for the people who placed the template to explain what is wrong and what we can do to fix it. Joie de Vivre 10:38, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Here's what I see on one reading. 1) I do think the scientific aims and claims section appears biased. Even though it is true that this is a section about what studies are used by pedophiles to rationalize their position, it is also true that these studies have been refuted. The entry doesn't make that at all clear. At the very least it should be stated that mainstream science does not concur or that studies exist to contradict these (and I don't mean with a disparaging dismissal as in the case of Rind). 2) There are "citations needed tags" throughout, because there are many unsourced statements. 3) There's a conflation between pedophilia and same-sex attraction in the entry as written that is exacerbated by virtually no discussion of age. The statement by one organization that this is "a gay issue" seems to erase completely other possible forms of pedophilic acts and lump all of these together as one issue. Relations between a 25-year-old male and a 14-year-old male, or between females of the same ages, versus a 50 year old man claiming he is having a love affair, including intercourse, with a 3-year-old girl--are we to assume that, to these organizations, both situations are the same in every respect? 4) Psychological harm is addressed, but physical harm is not. Again, age is clearly a factor here. -Jmh123 22:28, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

You raise a number of good points. I think all unsourced statements should be deleted now. Unless the other improvements you suggest can be made, I support deleting the offending sections DPeterson^talk 23:07, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I explained my problem with the "scientific claims" section here and got no responses. --P4k 23:02, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

You are correct and all that material should be deleted now. You have my support DPeterson^talk 23:08, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Requested link

"David.L "Dave" Riegel is mentioned - but his home page (http://www.shfri.net/dlr/) is not linked to his name. Should it be? If so, could someone who knows how do so?24.229.103.183 00:57, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Abstinent Childlove, Non-Abstinent Childlove, and Anti-Childlove

I think this article puts too much emphasis on Non-Abstinent Childlove and it's opponents. Non-Abstinent Childlove advocates "consensual" sexual relationships between adults and children. However, the article largely ignores Abstinent Childlove, which opposes child pornography and sexual relationships between adults and children. Instead, Abstinent Childlovers work towards social tolerance and repealing laws against fantasy-oriented activities, such as lolicon. There should also be mention of Anti-Childlove, which opposes social tolerance and fantasy-oriented activities. They usually express the opinion that all Childlovers pose a danger to children, regardless of their "stated" views on abstinence. These topics may be difficult to research, as different groups use different terms.{{subst:unsigned|68.1.124.88

You've made the same comment twice, further evidence the pro and anti articles need merging, SqueakBox 20:10, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Like any topic, we can only talk about Abstinent Childlovers if we have reliable sources for it. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:13, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Merting the two articles really makes sense. That way both points of view can economically be cited, assuming there are reliable and verifiable sources to support statements. DPeterson^talk 23:09, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Once again, it makes sense to merge the Pro and Anti articles together, for they both deal with the same topic - pedophile activism. One is the actual movement of individuals in support of advancing the pedophile perspectives on life, and the other is an attempt to counter such ideas and their influence on society. Both views deserve to be viewed from a neutral point of view. This is the key to making the two articles work well together on the same page. The goal should be to ballance the information, and to make sure that it is clear who is making what claims. Likewise, it is important to be as thorough as possible (to a reasonable degree of course), thus it's a good idea to distinguish the different stances that people take in regards to pedophile activism. This measns that the article should explain the different kinds of pro-pedophile and anti-pedophile activists there are. However, truth be told, until we're capable of bringing each of the two currently seperate articles to NPOV, it does not seem wise to merge the two. What's more, we need to finally reach some consensus on the issues that have been causing discord among the major contributors to these articles. It's now clear to all that change is necessary - the point is to determine what change is warranted, and how to make it reasonable enough for all (or most) editors to agree on.Homologeo 03:17, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I fully support independently bringing each article to NPOV. However, merging the two together does not make sense. By that logic, should we merge the White supremacy and the Anti-racism articles together, on the grounds that it is not possible to present one phenomenon without presenting the opposition in its entirety? I hate to sound like I am defending adult-child sexual contact, but melting two opposing camps into one article doesn't make sense. Should we merge Pro-life and Pro-choice into Abortion debate? If we can independently bring each article to NPOV, there is no need to merge the two. Joie de Vivre 12:53, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Homologeo that merging the two articles is in order. If someone can tell me how that is done, I will begin that process. DPeterson^talk 21:28, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Merge. First step is to open the process for discussion, thusly: Proposing a merger. -Jmh123 21:40, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Merging Pro and Anti Pedophile articles

Please comment here on this subject.

So let's have this discussion, now that the merge tag in on Anti-pedophile activism. The proposal is, in effect, to move some of the content of Pro-pedophile activism into the anti article, and then redirecting pro to anti. I would have two comments: 1) it seems the resulting article should be called "Pedophile activism", since it presumably would be about both directions, 2) why merge, when the resulting article is likely to be quite large? Discuss. --Askild 22:09, 14 June 2007 (UTC) (copied from above by DPeterson^talk 22:49, 14 June 2007 (UTC))

I agree with the proposed title. I don't think the article would be that large. It would eliminate the necessity to having each POV in each article in order to create two NPOV articles. DPeterson^talk 22:49, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

It is worth reading over discussion here. In particular, if a merge is decided upon, I quite like Will Beback's suggestion to call it "Pedophilia-related activism", for the sake of NPOV and unambiguity. --Askild 23:11, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I've read it now. I like your new suggested title, Pedophilia-related activism," and support that. DPeterson^talk 23:25, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

If consensus is actually reached on how the two articles are to be bonded together, and it is established that pro- and anti- pedophile movements are indeed different versions of the same phenomenon, then it would be reasonable to use the title "Pedophilia-related activism." This would be a neutral way of relaying what such an article would be about. All the while, I still believe that "Pedophile activism" should redirect to the new article. However, the concerns I voiced in the section below still stand...Homologeo 07:25, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Since pro-pedophile activism is one of the primary catalysts behind the creation and growth of anti-pedophile activism, and the latter often focuses on countering the claims of the former, it seems to make more sense to merge the anti- into the pro- article. Besides, in all honesty, the anti-pedophile activism article is not even close to being as developed as the pro-pedophile activism article is right now. It would be a disservice to Wikipedia to combine such uneven articles into one, especially since there are concerns over NPOV in both cases. For this reason, since both articles still need to be tagged due to the repeated suggestion that they should be merged, I switched the "mergeto" and "mergefrom" tags on the respective pages. Please respond on my reasoning here on the Talk Page before reverting my edit. Thanks in advance, Homologeo 07:38, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Homologeo. Switching the merge tags is fine with me. DPeterson^talk 11:37, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Agree to Merge?

1. Yes Based on discussion above in this and other sections. DPeterson^talk 22:04, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
2. Absolutely not, because they are opposing camps. Shall we merge Black supremacy and White supremacy? Or pro-choice and pro-life? I realize that the topic is unpleasant but that does not mean it should not be documented. However distressing it is, pro-pedophile activism is an entirely separate phenomenon from anti-pedophile activism. Joie de Vivre ^T 06:30, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
3. Although I have previously stated that an eventual merger would be preferable to having two seperate articles, due to the current state of the pro- and anti- pages and the ideas that each movement seems to promote, I have to agree with Joie de Vivre for the moment. What's more, I think Joie de Vivre makes a valid point - the goals and essense of each type of activism appear to be grounded in quite different fields of action. Thus, at this time, my vote is No. Homologeo 07:17, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
4. No, they are distinct things which cannot be combined under one heading and I can't understand why anyone would want to do so. --Coroebus 16:33, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
5. No. Silly idea, don't see it applied to other topics. We should not be shrinking the profile of valid and notable topics, however distasteful they may be. Samantha Pignez 21:36, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
6. Yes, this topic was recently separated by a now banned user so really we should be arguing whether the separation was a cceptable rather than treating it as the default, SqueakBox 21:42, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

If so, that would be interesting. But do you have any evidence? From what I can see, this article was started with the current topic. If you are referring to the anti-p article, then isn't that a whole different topic? Samantha Pignez 21:54, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Here is the separation which was started in the anti not the pro article but still an unwanted and non consensual separation, SqueakBox 22:02, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't see the objection. The version of the pro-p article from that time has no such material removed from it, making the anti-p article an original piece of work. You don't need consensus to start articles. Anyway, thanks for showing me. Samantha Pignez 22:06, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually it was Jim's response to attempts to include anti pedophile material in what was then pedophile activism so I think I am right in saying we need to justify this separation and not see it as a default position. If I cant get consensus for merging I will consider afding this article, SqueakBox 22:12, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Regardless, I don't see any splitting of actual content. Anyway, I think that housing anti-pedophile material in its own article is a pretty smart move (since it is, you know... anti-pedophile) Samantha Pignez 22:17, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

It wasnt logical then as the article on pedophile activism should have contained both pro and anti material. I believe Jim created the article to kee anti pedophile material out of the then pedophile activism article for his own pushing of pro pedophile activism and that this needs tio be urgently undone for NPOV reasons, SqueakBox 22:19, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, as to this article containing material on anti-pedophile activism (enough to justify not having an a-p article), thats your fringe point of view. As far as I can tell, the article was started and consensually maintained with the aim of documenting one movement, not two.

May I ask why you think it is "POV" in one direction, to have an article which documents a notable movement that opposes the said direction? Samantha Pignez 22:26, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Fringe view? What on earth are you talking about? I dont understand any of your poin ts in your last edit, and as to any fringe POVs I have, you've completely lost me. Can you try to reframe your points please, SqueakBox 22:32, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

From the vote so far, the idea that one article should encompass two movements is rather fringe. The idea that the article was actually "merged" or "should have" contained documentation of two POVs when the anti-p article was started is even more fringe IMO. Most people seem to accept that this article is centred on one movement, and always has been, no? Anyway, no need to take offence. Simply being outspoken does not lower the virtues of your argument, but just makes your task harder. Samantha Pignez 22:50, 18 June 2007 (UTC)