Talk:Jihad Watch

Revert wars

I knew it was going to happen.... ...I have no objection to secondary and tertiary entries so long as I don't have to guard the thing 24/7 against vandalism aiming to nerf the entry down to flavorless, factless nothingness.--Mike18xx 22:25, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

CAIR

It's interesting why people desire to list CAIR's "hate site" reference, when, if such POV is kosher, then it's equally kosher for CAIR-detractors to follow up with an examination of all the CAIR critters indicted, tossed in jail, deported, etc., for terrorist-associations, money-laundering, fraud, etc.--Mike18xx 10:18, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Criticism

Why shouldn't there be a section telling the reader that this site has recieved a lot of criticism? The article just spats out quotes from this site and presents it as fact.

No, they are not presented as "facts"; they are presented as a quotation. Intelligent persons do not have difficulty discerning the difference.--Mike18xx 03:13, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

And its not like its just a couple of people whining here and there, its enough people that Robert Spencer acknowledges them. Its bias not to show that this site has not undergone the success it has had without criticism.--Seventy-one 18:37, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Everybody everywhere has critics, and anyone anywhere can find them with a simple Google search. Wiki bios are about personages, not their critics. If a particular critic is notable in his own right, then he should have his own Wiki entry.--Mike18xx 03:13, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

But doesn't it seem odd that one of the most contreversial sites on the web, has no mention of that contreversy in the Wikipedia article?--Seventy-one 20:58, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, because most Wikipedia articles are total cat-fights that get reverted twenty to fifty times a day, making it a complete random crap-shoot as to what information any browser is going to get at any time of the day. As for whether or not a blog dealing with Islam is controversial, somebody would have to have a head of solid stone not to be able to deduce that for themselves. As for Spencer's (ubiquitously unnotable) critics, who doesn't know, by now, that Google is their friend?--Mike18xx 01:32, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

---

    Why not create a separate Wikepedia entry entitled "Criticism of Jihad Watch," as has been done for CAIR?  Hectard 17:24, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

It is clear that this entry currently has zero significance. It simply states "here is a website, come visit it and bolster my hit count".

Leading off with a blatantly false statement like that doesn't inspire confidence for what is to follow....

Creating a website, and listing it on Wiki saying "here it is, I am the author" holds zero merit, and with nothing usefull in it whatsoever.

Are you accusing Wiki editors of creating the website?--Mike18xx 01:42, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

It is obvious that people (including Pro- Jihad Watch) want to show critism and how the website succeeds in the face of it.

It's obvious that (Islamic fanatics?) with fresh-made Wiki accounts without user pages (when they're not simply behind random IP addresses) want to criticize it. In fact, one wonders how you even discovered that Wikipedia had an entry for this subject of "zero significance" -- let alone why you would care about it so much -- if mention of it hadn't been dropped on a web-forum you like to read.--Mike18xx 01:42, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, there are lots of critics of JW. Not just Muslims. Maybe not fascist Jewish propagandists that you love, like Pipes, but there are lots of critics including non Muslims.

Let me remind you of the Wiki five pillars; Wikipedia has a neutral point of view, which means we strive for articles that advocate no single point of view.

The article does have a neutral POV -- it explains exactly what JihadWatch *is*, and nothing more.

You keep on reverting the article to hold ZERO viewpoints.

So, you shift your argument from one which insinuates that the JH wiki entry has SOME kind or partisan viewpoint (and that therefore anti-JH criticism is warranted as some kind of balance) to an argument which declares, in an immediately following sentence, that the JH wiki entry has no viewpoints whatsoever...? You appear to be just making stuff up as you go along.--Mike18xx 01:42, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore "Wikipedia is not a space for personal promotion or the promotion of products, services, Web sites, fandoms, ideologies, or other memes"

And your evidence of "personal promotion" is...?--Mike18xx 01:42, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

This article needs to include criticism of jihadwatch. There should at least be a mention of the critisism of jihadwatch that has come from muslims, a quick glance ot the site shows it to be Islamophobic rather than about combating extremist Islam, the home page advertises a book claiming to be about Muhammad Founder of the World's Most Intollerant Religion, says it all really, it's got nothing to do with extreme Islam, and everything to do with religious intolerance. Critisism of this organisation is legitimate, and it is legitimate to include that criticism in this article, indeed it is not only legitimate to include criticism, it is fundamental to the NPOV policy that all POVs be expressed. It is apparent that this organisation, jihadwatch, is associated with people and organisations that have a pro-Israeli and right wing bias, including people like David Horowitz who want to supress freedom of speech in the USA, there seems to be a fair amount of cross over between Campus Watch, Jihad Watch, Professors Watch and Media Watch and discoverthenetworks.org.[1] This undermines the so called independence of this site. Criticism of this site from reliable sources really does need to be included. Indeed there is a whole article on critisism of CAIR, see Criticism of the Council on American-Islamic Relations. I'm going to start ot introduce some neutrality into this site when I get some time. Mike18xx has spouted what I can only describe as irellevant nonsense above, much of which are clear breaches of correct wikipedia policies.

• you shift your argument from one which insinuates that the JH wiki entry has SOME kind or partisan viewpoint

This is irrelevant, the neutrality policy means that we should include criticism of the organisation, just as there is critisism of other organisations in their articles. If no critisism is made, when criticism clearly exists, then the article is in breach of the NPOV policy.

• The article does have a neutral POV -- it explains exactly what JihadWatch *is*

No it doesn't, what JH is is a matter of POV, so to explain what it is we need to include all POVs, including those that think it is a right wing Islamophobic organisation.

• It's obvious that (Islamic fanatics?) with fresh-made Wiki accounts without user pages (when they're not simply behind random IP addresses) want to criticize it.

This is close to a personal attack. Any evidence of Sockpuppetry should be reported, false accusations are extremely poor form. What is the evidence that only Islamic fanatics want to criticise this article? One can criticise this article and be no sort of fanatic at all, and not even a muslim, it's not a very good article, and is certainly not neutral in tone.

• Everybody everywhere has critics, and anyone anywhere can find them with a simple Google search. Wiki bios are about personages, not their critics.

What's this gibberish? This is not a bio, it's an article about an organisation. Because this is an encyclopaedia it needs to include critisism of the organisation. We cannot say in the article for critisism do a google. For one thing Wikipedia is supposed to be medium independent, there are CD rom versions for people that are not online, and most of the world is not, let's remember. Also we include only reliable sources, something a google search will not produce.

None of the arguments used by Mike18xx have any basis in Wikipedia policies or guidelines. There is absolutely no reason for not including critisism of this organisation in the article. Indeed it is a breach of the neutrality polict to include only information from the site itself or from other sites that support it. Campus Watch has a criticism section. But I note that Media Watch International and Discover the Networks do not, maybe we need to introduce more neutrality accross these articles about the radical right of US politics. Alun 11:12, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

This entry in the criticism place: Jihad Watch has often been criticized for its inaccurate and misleading content. It has typically tried to demonize and satanize Muslims even when evidence is lacking. For example Jihad Watch blamed the murder of an Egyptian Christian family on so-called "Muslim extremists" (http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/004740.php) yet later police investigations concluded the family was murdered by non-Muslim American youths for the purpose of robbery.

Should be edited, for one thing, the use of language 'demonize and satanise'is not professional, and is repeated anyway later now in the second criticism 'islamophobic and racist'.

Secondly, the example given above of 'misleading information' that the site said the family WAS murdered by Muslims is false even going to that link, for that link explicitly says that it received information from a person in regards to its statements. In other words, Jihadwatch is saying that the person whom was a close friend of those killed says Muslims killed them. "A close friend of Hossam Armanious, the Coptic Christian who was brutally murdered in New Jersey along with his family, is the source of this information which comes to you exclusively from Jihad Watch:"

I can tell just from that, that whoever put that in is extremely biased towards this site, keep an objective mind and dont include criticism that is in fact easily demonstratibly false, your just undermining the quality this whole wikipedia community is after. Lilraven 15:07, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Notability

Per Wikipedia guidelines, shouldn't any news or statements being considered for addition to an entry be subject to the same test of Notability that prospective entries are? If one blogger says something somewhere in cyberspace, does that make that statement notable enough to attribute it in a Wikipedia entry? Accordingly, I propose the statement attributed to "TallArmenianTale" be removed. IF one is found that echoes the same sentiment, but attributes a more reputable (or notable) source, I'm all for it's inclusion.

66.208.48.126 15:38, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Blogs are not notable unless the source of the text writing it is notable, or the blog has been the subject of some media press. It is best to not use them as a source, generally. BhaiSaab ^talk 19:14, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Whenever Spencer is interviewed (which isn't infrequently), he is invariably introduced as the creator of Jihad Watch (and the things he writes there are often the focus of the interview). However, the stalwart efforts of the "Muslim Guild" to remove articles referencing annoying criticism of Islam from Wikipedia are duly noted.--Mike18xx 01:38, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't see any censorship by Muslims. But I do see lots of censorship by fascist jews of any criticism of judaism, israel, zionism, and the official holocaust story, both here and all over the media.

Try Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Truth About Muhammad: Founder of the World's Most Intolerant Religion as a counterproductive attempt at censorship, by editors who claim to be Muslim. Andrewa 04:12, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Eligibility of a Blog

Going to keep this short, what is the point of this wiki entry?

It has one single point of view, to a very suspicious website.

Lets wait for an entry to JewWatch which claims that the site is unquestionable and true.

"Suspicious"? Mr Spencers website is extremely well researched, well thought out, and actually provides evidence to back up its claims. Also, unlike JewWatch, it is not a site dedicated to hatred of an ethnic group, but criticism of a religion. Lord Patrick 21:42, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Criticism

I wonder why the links to critical websites were removed. --Reza1 03:59, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Because they are anonynmous blogs. We do not reference anonymous blogs.--CltFn 01:42, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

CltFn kindly give link regarding your claim. (LewisRyder 21:46, 3 September 2006 (UTC))

You can start with Wikipedia:Reliable sources--CltFn 22:33, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, you want Wikipedia:External_links#Links_normally_to_be_avoided because those sites have not been referenced, just linked. BhaiSaab ^talk 01:46, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

This article in The Guardian calls jihadwatch notoriously Islamophobic.[2] I think the good old Guardian is exceedingly reputable, and eminently citable. Here's another article in the Guardian that mentions Jihad Watch, though the article is about how right wing Americans want to restrict academic freedom. [3] CAIR is not an anonymous blog, I'm don't know much about this, but it seems at least equally respectable as jihadwatch.org. Given that jihadwatch.org has posted anti-CAIN material on it's site, it would seem fair to include criticism of jihadwatch.org by CAIN.[4] This is an encyclopaedia, it needs to be ballanced, not all of the criticism of this organisation is by anonymous bloggers, nor is it all by people that are not reliable sources. Jihad Watch itself seems to be a somewhat unreliable sort of organisation, but that's not relevant, what is relevant is neutrality, no original research and verifiability from reliable sources. One cannot claim that all sources that criticise Jihad Watch are not reliable. Alun 21:11, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Your point is correct, however the specific "critical websites" that Reza1 was referring on 30 August 2006 to were anomymous blogs.--CltFn 03:12, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

The last cited example of Jihadwatch 'censorring free speach' is wrong, for the article itself cites a person who is in some way affiliated with Jihadwatch offhandedly, but the article does not talk about Jihadwatch, nor mentions it as censorring free speach. It is talking about that person. Be very careful of linking websites that offer extremely thin straws supporting some criticism.

Category:David Horowitz

Thre's no indication in this article of why it's in Category:David Horowitz. We should indicate the connection in the text. -Will Beback · † · 05:14, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I added a link ...

For objectivity's sake, I added a link to a blog critical of JihadWatch. I urge the numerous JihadWatch fans not to remove this. Since you denounce Islam as not respecting pluralism and imposing intellectual conformity, give the good example and allow criticism of JihadWatch to be read as well. 82.170.137.201 16:39, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

It is a blog link. Per Wikipedia:External links#Links normally to be avoided- #10, I am removing it.--Sefringle 20:39, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

This is crap: Jihad Watch is a blog itself. Look wat Sefringle has to say on his own user page : "I believe people need to see all sides of contravercial issues. It is my belief that Wikipedia should have unbaised articles, not just articles that praise one side while ignoring the other side. I believe wikipedia should have a neutral point of view, and be accurate." So please, back off ! 62.194.104.78 21:19, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

nonsense

"Less than a year later the Jihad Watch site is getting between 600,000 to 1 million hits a day, according to Spencer.[5]" not believable especially from "spencer" the author of the silly blog. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.146.134.202 (talk) 00:12, 17 April 2007 (UTC).

Criticism, yet again

I added references to the criticism against Jihad Watch as it gives the article context, but now I realize that these links had been in and out of the entry for a long time. The reason Jihad Watch deserves an entry is because it is so controversial and brought up by CAIR as an example of popular websites. If you take that away, why should there be an entry on a blog nobody cares about? Misheu 08:54, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion

As per edit summary may I suggest we don't include marginally notable criticism of other parties than the article subject? We have an article on Spencer and Spencer's attack on a guardian journalist on a TV show isn't really about Jihad Watch. Otherwise we will end up with long and silly lists of insults in the article. --BozMo talk 09:42, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

If we include one side, we should include the other. Arrow740 09:51, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

It starts to cheapen the whole thing if we bother to report retaliatory sniping, especially if it isn't actually on the Jihad watch site but it by someone who apparently merits his own article on a TV show. I don't think it is encyclopedic in nature to list "he said /// she said" etc. There isn't actually a material counter accusation here is there? --BozMo talk 09:57, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

the retorts don't actually respond to or refute the criticisms, they just attack the critics. ITAQALLAH 18:08, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

It is on the same level as Whitaker's attempted slam. Arrow740 18:22, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

the website (i.e. the topic of this article) has been criticised for being Islamophobic. a retort would be to assert why it isn't, or why such neologisms might be inappropriate or inapplicable, or anything else that debunks the criticism. spiteful attacks against those forwarding the criticism is just a way around actually addressing it, and as such is extraneous to the discussion of the criticism. ITAQALLAH 18:55, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

It is not a way around anything, and criticism is not the topic of this article. Arrow740 21:12, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

"It is not a way around anything" - the ad personam arguments i have described above are exactly that. criticism of the website is the subject of the section. ITAQALLAH 01:40, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Then we should just dump the useless and diverting criticism section, since (A) it's already obvious, from the nature of the article's subject, what kinds of people aren't going to like it, and therefore (B) indulging in it is just coatracking. Not every article on Wikipedia has to be a stupid, bloated monstrosity.--Mike18xx 21:23, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Mike, there is no reason to remove the section altogether. --Aminz 21:38, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Then criticism of the ugliness of the coats on the coatrack is also permissible.--Mike18xx 21:52, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Why was the criticism section just deleted? The edit summary was

• It is either acceptible to critique the ugliness of the coats on this rack, or the coats get tossed into the garbage. WP:COATRACK [5]

But that doesn't explain the deletion. "Coatrack" is not a policy. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:45, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

You're absolutely right! Editors are, upon occasion, permitted to use their own logic in the determination of what is garbage, and proceed accordingly.--Mike18xx 08:10, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

You still need a reason to delete sourced criticism. Without all viewpoints represented the artilce is not NPOV. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 16:54, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Link to Jewwatch in the see also section.

Bigot site, meet bigot site.--Flamgirlant 21:16, 22 June 2007 (UTC)