Talk:Romani language

Romani loanwords in English

gadgie and cooshtie

gadgie and cooshtie are probably examples of regional dialect borrowings, rather than slang. gadgie is documented for Berwick-upon-Tweed / South East Scotland in at least one dialect dictionary. cooshtie is also found there, though it does not seem to be documented - though it is true that gadgie and cooshtie are slang words in other parts of Britain, such as East London. The article is fine, but it would be nice if better examples of slang words can be found. 82.152.97.125 10:23, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Dukes

The Mother Tongue, by Bill Bryson states that "put up your dukes" comes from Cockney rhyming slang. I don't have the book on me, nor any other reference, so I'm not going to edit it.

Bill Bryson has no training in linguistics and The Mother Tongue is full of urban myths and factual inaccuracies, nearly one on every page. It is not an appropriate reference for anything. CRCulver 00:20, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Are you an expert on who is an expert or not?

Someone needs to dig out another reference regarding dukes or verify that it its loan status is described in the existing references. 82.152.97.125 10:23, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I thought nobody was sure where the term "Chav" comes from? (I for one have heard the term explained as an acronym for "Council Home And Violent" 138.235.105.2 01:53, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Posh

I'd heard that "posh" is an acronym for "Port out, Starboard home." It was explained to me that on passenger ships sailing from England to India through the Suez canal, the cabins on the shady side were the more desirable (to avoid the direct tropical sun in the Indian Ocean), and therefore, the more expensive. That works out to be on the left, on the port side as you're sailing east towards India, and on the right, the starboard side as you're sailing west towards England. 140.147.160.78 19:44, 20 December 2006 (UTC)Stephen Kosciesza

The word 'posh' has its own Wikipedia entry, where this question is addressed, rebutting 'port out, starboard home', and giving a Romani etymology. Is it possible to link the word 'posh' in our article here to that article? I don't know how to do that.142.68.51.163 15:59, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

languages related to roma

Doesn't it stand to reason that the many languages claimed to be most closely related to Roma in this article have themselves diverged significantly while Roma itself was becoming distinct?

Whether or not this is the case, it would be interesting to see some of the features and words which are said to illuminate the origins of the language, rather than just second-hand claims of relationship. --babbage 19:18, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

other gypsy languages?

Recently i've read that there are several other gypsy languages besides romany. I'm finally getting around to adding my signature. Gringo300 23:48, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

One of them is angloromani. see talk page for angloromani. Gringo300 01:13, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Why Romany instead of Gypsy?

Why is the language called Romany? Is it to do with Romania, where they settled for thousands of years? Scott Gall 03:40, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

No, the language is called Romany because these people call themselves "Roma". It has nothing to do with Romania, that's mere coincidence. In fact, a related people living in the Middle East call themselves "Dhom", which seems to be the original name. As for the name Gypsy, that word is increasingly seen as offensive, based as it is on a misunderstanding of their origins, as the English believed they were from Egypt, when in reality they migrated from India. Also, the Roma haven't lived in Romania for "thousands of years"; they only reached the Balkans around the beginning of the second millennium AD. CRCulver 04:13, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

"these people call themselves 'Roma' "

In answer to CR Culver, the Romany/Gypsy/Cikán pepole of the Czech Republic (and probably most of Central and Eastern Europe) tend to see "Roma" as a new-fangled "politically correct" term. As far as they are concerned, they're Gypsies (Cikáni) and proud of it.

Maybe some are proud, but most not, do you have some statistics or something else to prove your sayings? Desiphral-देसीफ्राल talk-फेन मा 10:00, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

copyedited

OK, I thoroughly copyedited the article...[for parts of it, read "translated into English"][1]...have at it. Tomer^talk 08:19, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Are the different dialects communicable?

I see many words are pretty much the same across different dialects. But an English Gypsy travelling through Romania could not understand them easily but as he traveled further and into Bulgaria, he was able to understand them much better.I wonder how much this corresponds to the Kalderash and Erli dialects.

Are Kalderash and Erli understandable to each other?

Improvement Drive

Roma people has been nominated to be improved on the Improvement Drive. Support this article with your vote and help us improve it to featured status!--Fenice 10:30, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

The "dialects issue" when it comes to Rromani language is a fake one. Those who speak Rromanes can easily understand each other, no matter what dialect they speak. The dialectal differences are not so numerous and in the most of the cases they follow a logic schema. The problem is that outsiders often classify as Rroms people who aren't. For instance, the Travellers are not Rroms and they never spoke Rromani language. But people call them "gypsies", just like they call the Romanichals, who do speak anglo-rromani. The same with the Rudars, who are not Rroms, but a balkanic minority, speaking a dialect of Rumanian. People call them "Cigani", just like they call the Rroms.

Romani and Romany

There are in English these two spellings, but it is favoured the first, because this is the way the other Indo-Aryan languages are spelled: Hindi, Bengali, Marathi, Kashmiri etc. The Romani dialects are spelled also like this: Drindari, Erli, Jambashi etc. and even the dialects of other languages spoken by Roma (with only Romani vocabulary) like Pogadi. Romany looks awkward together with other Indo-Aryan languages. Desiphral 13:15, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

An external link regarding this issue is here. Desiphral-देसीफ्राल talk-फेन मा 08:08, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

RRomani or RRomany?

How is it correct? RRomani or RRomany? --Andrei George 19:32, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

The double-R spellings are a Romanian-specific introduction, that I don't believe are recognised elsewhere. So the answer is the same as 'Romani and Romany'. Shaun 22:22, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

It is recognised in Poland, too: one of the Romany magazines there is titled "Rrom". Qubux 10:16, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

The Vlax Romani words "Rrom" (married Romani man), "Rroma" (plural of 'Rrom'), "Rromano" ('Romani (adjective),' masculine singular), etc. are spelled with two R's. My guess is that in Romani, "Rromani" would mean the same thing as "Rromano" except before a feminine noun, e.g. e Rromani Čhib (the Romani Language). --Kuaichik 07:37, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Nature article

I would like to see a better citation of the Nature article. Makes it a great deal easier for those of us who would actually like to read said article!--King ravana 01:28, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Devanagari

Why is romani written in devanagari in the box? i tried to find an explanation but the article says nothing about it. Romani alphabet says nothing about it either. -guest

Now it is available the article about Romani writing systems. Desiphral देसीफ्राल 11:13, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Distribution section

I replaced the distribution section with info from http://romani.uni-graz.at/rombase/cd/data/lang/gen/data/numbers.en.pdf [2] as the numbers didn't add up to 4.8 million mentioned at the top of the page and the source of the data wasn't cited. Please revert if this was the wrong thing to do.

External links

Recently there has been a large community sentiment against external links, inspired by WP:NOT. I've removed a few external links on the page. An anon IP added links to individual dictionary definitions at some non-authoritative destination. However, the article would be more trustworthy if we sourced Romani loanwords into English against the OED, which is authoritative has reliable etymologies. There is the external link *Detailed discussion of the language, but it tells hardly much more than the WP article. I think we should add any of its facts to the article, and then delete the link. CRCulver 16:26, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Well you should discuss thiese matters before you delete. Simply deleting these links before asking is rude and not excatly welcome to people who have worked on the Roma related sections to have it changed by "fly-by-nighters"Robbyfoxxxx 16:52, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

• Romani words in slang
• Romany Slang
• Romany Slang
• The word "slang" as Romani in origin

Calling me a fly-by-nighter violates WP:NPA and ignores my three and a half years of activity on WP. As for the links, the four can all be replaced by a single citation of the OED entry for "slang". CRCulver 17:13, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree some links needed to be erased, but the page of the Romani education system in Romania? There is a lot of on-line material in Romani there. Desiphral-देसीफ्राल talk-फेन मा 18:03, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I accidentally deleted that one. It merely needs a "RO" tag before it. CRCulver 18:07, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Stop deleting CCulver- You need some concensus before you delete, this is not "your"Romani language article.

I have not deleted further content. I have only reverted the anon IP's replacement of the deleted content. Please look at WP:NOT before protesting. There is no need for four links that all say the same exact thing. Look at the actual links I've removed. Furthermore, trimming content that violates WP:NOT is just as important as adding content. CRCulver 19:44, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with CRCulver. Put something adequate and nobody will delete it. Desiphral-देसीफ्राल talk-फेन मा 22:28, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Question

What language do the Romas of Belarus (and European Russia) speak? Thank you! -- 82.209.211.116 20:42, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Title

Why is this article at Romani language and not at Romany language? The latter seems far more common in English: [3] [4].--Tekleni 11:36, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Consistency with other Indo-Iranian languages, and because new scholarship on the language overwhelmingly uses "Romani". CRCulver 13:50, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I still don't get it. Britannica calls it "Romany" [5]. We're breaking with years of tradition here (especially considering that the hits for "Romani" include many hits in languages other than English).--Tekleni 17:28, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Britannica is not a source, of course. Generally Wikipedia prefers the current academic name for languages, that's why we have Sami even though most older or popular sources say Lapp. CRCulver 18:29, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, you're right. Britannica is the very opposite of an academic source - it's a mere web blog. Oh, look at that, the Columbia Encyclopedia also calls it Romany [6]. How amateurish! BTW when are one of these "true" academic sources which call it "Romani" actually going to be cited, because I can't find any - not that it'll make much difference, as far as I can standard Wikipedia practice is to use the terms used by other encyclopedias (i.e. if it's acceptable for other encyclopedias, it is acceptable for Wikipedia).--Tekleni 18:38, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Did you know BTW that Britannica has an article called Sami language, not "Lapp language". Who woulda thunk it?--Tekleni 18:38, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Britannica is a secondary source. Naming disputes must look to primary scholarship. As an example:

• Romani in Contact: The History, Structure and Sociology of a Language (Amsterdam Studies in the Theory and History of Linguistic Science, Series IV: Current Issues in Linguistic Theory), International Conference on Romani Linguistics 1993, ed. Yaron Matras (John Benjamins, 1995).
• What is the Romani Language, Centre de recherces tziganes (University of Hertfordshire Press, 2001).
• Matras, Yaron. Romani: A Linguistic Introduction(Cambridge University Press, 2005)

Notice that even the international conference on the language uses the spelling "Romani". CRCulver 19:00, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Good point + if that's how the people themselves spell it in English, then that's a different matter altogether. See Wikipedia:Naming dispute - the "self-identifying" name is generally preferred.--Tekleni 19:03, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

"Carpathian" Romani

What's the difference between the Carpathian Romani in the dialects section, and the Carpathian Romani in the Mixed Languages section? The article on North Central Romani seems to indicate that it's a dialect, and Ethnologue gives it language code. - Parsa 22:02, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Good observation, although they are used in close areas, Romungro is different of Carpathian Romani. Probably the user who added it, didn't know about the difference. Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 12:12, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Orthography

Good grief, Desiphral. I honestly do not understand the point you are trying to make. I've offered my arguments. This is the English Wikipedia, and if people go looking for further information, most likely they will use sources written in English. the fact remains that the vast bulk of English literature on Romani linguistics uses the Pan-Vlax orthography. Allow me to quote directly from Yaron Matras' article "Writing Romani: The pragmatics of codification in a stateless language", which can be found in the journal Applied Linguistics, volume 20, pp 481-502 (this particular quotation can be found on page 488, should you wish to look it up):

[A] consensus seems to prevail on the use of wedge-accents as employed in south-western Slavic alphabets to indicate palato-alveolars (š, ž, č) and the use of -h to indicate distinctive aspiration on voiceless stops/affricates (ph, th, kh, čh). These conventions appear not only in data presentation, but also in works with potential normative functions, such as the major recent comprehensive dictionaries by Boretzky and Igla (1994), Hübschmannová et al. (1991), the Romani-English version of Demeter and Demeter (1990), or the reference grammars by Kepeski and Jusuf (1980) and Hancock (1995).

Now, it's only logical that Romani vocabulary presented in the English Wikipedia follow this broad academic consensus. That much should be obvious. I'm well aware that it's not the only way to write Romani, and that in countries not using English different conventions may prevail. For example, on the Romanian Wikipedia it would be logical to use the orthography by Gheorghe Sarău as most Romanian literature on Romani will use this orthography. The point is that this is not the case here on the English Wikipedia.

Now, your arguments seem to mainly be based around insinuating that those who disagree with you are pushing some kind of agenda, with thinly veiled accusations of anti-gypsyism. This kind of argumentum ad hominem has to stop. Dewrad 14:00, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I see. So this is your point of view. If I am correct, the contending issues, from my point of view, seem to be: in which direction should go the selection of an accepted spelling? That of the research or that of the actual use? The Handbook of Vlax Romani of Ian Hancock acknowledges the existence of an English-based non-diacritic spelling also used by Vlax speakers. And the fact is that the people using this language do not use diacritics (I can't show statistics and I suppose you can't either). Even in Romania, popularly, including at TV shows, there is used an Romanian-based or English-based non-diacritic spelling, not the acute accent one. I presented before other non-diacritic variants, influenced by other local spellings (if they have accents, it is only for stress, not pronunciation). And the argument that this is the English Wikipedia might be presented also for supporting the English-based non-diacritc spelling. Plus, repeatedly, in the official policies of this wiki, it is reminded that a major bulk of contributors, especially to subjects not so main stream like this, do not use English as first language, have acces to other linguistic areas, and they should be considered too. Somehow, how should go the presentation of the Romani language? From the point of view of the English sources or a broad inclusion?Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 15:59, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

From the point of view of academic sources, as there is no commonly accepted standard for transliteration among speakers. Speakers of Romani are not the issue here. It's immaterial if speakers use a non-diacriticked form. Precisely because so many variant orthographies are used by speakers should we use the form currently favoured by academic literature. Now, I've provided a citation for the broad consensus among Romani scholars who write in English at least. Please provide a citation (in any language: we can translate) that supports the opinion that there is an academic consensus to use a different orthography. Dewrad 16:15, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I did not find yet, I still have to peruse some material, but I found a source for Devnagari [7], even academic. Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 18:58, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Note how a) Hancock uses the Pan-Vlax orthography consistently and b) he dismisses Devanagari out of hand. I look forward to your sources. Dewrad 19:05, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't get how he dismisses it. He says that "Devanagari (Indian)-based systems, which have occasionally been used, are of academic interest only". Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 19:17, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

How is that not dismissing it? Here's the full quote: "Constructed, non-Latin alphabets for Romani, such as the one devised by Andrzej Mirga on an Indian model, or actual Devanagari (Indian)-based systems, which have occasionally been used, are of academic interest only, but do reflect an awareness of Romani’s historical Asian connection." He's essentially saying a handful of people have come up with the idea of using Devanagari to write Romani, but no one has really bought the idea in significant enough numbers that to make the proposals anything more than academic curiousities. But you basically just linked us to an expert on Romani, who is himself Rom, saying that hardly anyone writes Romani using Devanagari --Miskwito 23:42, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

RFC

I have opened a Request for Comment on Desiphral for his actions on this and other pages related to the Romani language and Roma people. The page can be found at Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Desiphral. If you have any comments or opinions on the RfC, please feel free to make them known there. --Miskwito 22:40, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Non-Latin Alphabets

I think the page about Romani writing systems should in fact mention all writing systems used for Romani. This includes Devanagari and Andrzej Mirga's alphabet. However, I think it is only appropriate that they be included in context -- that is, we should note how much they are actually used, which according to Hancock is hardly ever. I think that they are both interesting, and I wish I could find more details on Andrzej Mirga's script, an d they would be an interesting addition provided we do not lie about their provenance as our desi phral here seems to want to do. --Node 05:40, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

There is one thing that bothers me about including Devanagari- while we have one citation that dismisses its use, it doesn't go into detail about the scheme used. Based on the following exchange ([8] and [9]), it rather looks like the system Desiphral wishes to include in all articles on Romani is (at least to an extent) his own invention, making it clear OR. So before it gets mentioned or used in article namespace, I would rather like to see a published academic source which can verify that the transcription scheme used isn't Desiphral's invention. Dewrad 16:35, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Hm, good work digging those up. I can't speak for Node, but what I was agreeing to was more like just a brief one-sentence mention along the lines of "various other schemes have been proposed, including [blah], [blah], and Devanagari, but none have gained wide use." Rather than actually going into detail about how the systems worked. --Miskwito 21:56, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Please add a link to Romanq language

Hi, i redirected here the roma language page, because al the pages that linked there referred to romani language. Could you put the following template at the beginning of the article, so the originial "Roma language" page, which is now Romanq Language, doesn't get lost?

This article is about the language spoken by Roma people. For the Malyo-Polynesian language, see Romang language.

Anyep 22:38, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Done. —dgies^t_c 23:37, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

About Yaron Matras (Madaares)' edits

Yaron Matras, non-Romani Professor in Linguistics at the University of Manchester, with the username Madaares keeps adding the mention that the Ḍom -> Rom theory is the mainstream, an obvious personal POV. Yes, it has anteriority as compared to Rajput -> Rom theory, but is certainly no mainstream. It was based simply on the assumption of a name similarity and a supposed similar low status. The fact is that these two assumptions were mostly based on the anti-Romani stereotypes and prejudices. There are plenty of possibilities of making connections between the word Rom and words from the Subcontinent [10] and also the peculiarities of the Romanipen do not suggest at all a low caste origin. Plus, the name Domba itself in the Subcontinent do not designate a specific ethnic group, it is just an exonyom given by the hight caste to some unrelated groups that have their own ethnic names. On these grounds this theory is dismissed as unscientific. And if it finds supporters mostly among non-Roma, as fitting their ideas about Roma, this does not mean it is mainstream. The other theory is obviously well represented worldwide.

I did not have previous encounters with Yaron Maras, but I see that this first one does not look at all as a positive one. I am not a member of any "Romani Union of Romania" and I don't know of the existence of any such union. It is sad that he resorts to such cheap intimidations, probably fitting himself the image of those non-Romani researchers who "seem to feel threatened by Romanies who are educated or who are branded as ‘activists,’ as though this were automatically a bad thing" as presented by Ian Hacock at Romani Origins and Romani Identity: A Reassessment of the Arguments. Is this a new proof that the Romani studies done by some non-Romanies are some of the last contemporary studies made in a colonialistic style? Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 12:10, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Why is it relevant that he is non-Romani? Why do you always have to bring ethnicity into this? And why does it always come down to personal attacks? Dewrad 13:02, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Now you too, as in previous issues, present me as the guilty one. I refuse this status, I don't see reasons. What should I understand: that he has the right to intimidate me and if I say that the allegations are not true, I am still the guilty one? He presented them as Romani those who organized the Rajput -> Romani theory. Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 13:15, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm not presenting you as the guilty one. Let go of your victim mentality for a moment and just look at why you always have to bring ethnicity into it, as if the research of non-Roma is less reliable than that of Roma. Your near-constant veiled accusations of racism are both wearing and predictable, Desiphral. Dewrad 13:20, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I am bringing predictable accusations of racism? Why do you say that "the research of non-Roma is less reliable than that of Roma"? There are no reasons for this. This is your assumption for downgrading my presentation. Again, Y. Matras is the person who dismisses the other theory as "Romani activism", he puts himself in the non-Romani position (a veiled allusion to a better position, form his point of view?). Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 13:38, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

For example, Gheorghe Sarǎu from Romania, an important researcher of the Romani language and the organizer of the Romani teaching in the same country, does not put himself in this position and does not try to active push a presonal POV as does Matras now at Wikipedia. Thus who is saying that he is non-Romani? These accusations of racism are just ways to cover your structural problems. Personally I don't know from where do you get so much confidence in making these allegations. In a normal context, this "Romani Union of Romania" approach would be considered really childish. Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 14:29, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Alin Dosoftei claims that he is Rom, that may be true, though I think it is irrelevant. He is certainly not an expert in historical linguistics, nor has he ever published, or taught, Romani linguistics. He attacks me for not being a Rom - how does he know whether I am Romani or not? - because that is his only line of defence. The fact is, Desiphral keeps deleting things that I add, but I never deleted anything of his, except for a single remark that was offenvie (implying that I support a particular theory in order to justify discrimination). I suggest that we split this site into two: I get to draft the view of mainstreadm academia, as published in every scholarly article; and Desiphral gets to write his fantastic politically-inspired mythologies about a Rajput origin. But we leave each others' writings intact, and allow others to make modifications to whatever text they wish to identify with. Agreed?Madaares 13:53, 28 June 2007 (UTC) Yaron Matras

I should add, perhaps, for the benefit of those following the debate in this forum, that I was involved myself in Romani political activism for many years, probably long before Alin aka Desiphral came along and discovered the Rajput warrior hypothesis. In my book I cite this as theory as one put forward by Romani activists -- which is the truth, it is not supported by a single scholar with a track record of expertise in Romani linguistics who is not a political activist. The point is, I don't eradicate the view, as Alin does with other people's views. I comment on it, I may challenge it and criticise it, but I don't simply censor it. Alin, by contrast, censors other views -- as you can see by looking at the history of this site. This is not Wikipedia spirit, and it should not be allowed to go on. If the two views are not reconcilable and we cannot agree on a way to integrate them into one presentation, then, I repeat my suggestion: let us split the entry into two narratives, and tell both stories, and let the readers choose what they want to believe. Isn't that a fair suggestion? Madaares 14:07, 28 June 2007 (UTC) Yaron Matras

Again, the Dom -> Rom theory is based on a supposed name connection (while there are plenty of such possibilities of connections with words from the Subcontinent) and on a supposed connection between Domba's low status and the anti-Romani prejudices. Scientifc studies presented reasons for its' lack of substance and for the Rajput ancestry. Some supporters of Dom -> Rom reorganized later their theory, by including the points raised against its likeliness, by presenting the Ḍom as a cover-term for itinerant service-providing castes and the three group as originating in different areas within India, speaking different (albeit related) Indian languages, and probably leaving the Subcontinent at different times, taking different routes. It is too bad for Y. Matras dismissing, as always, the scientific approach as "fantastic politically-inspired mythology" and his opinion based on a mere resemblance of prejudices as the mainstream. I presented the evolution in time of the two theories, but I see that he deleted most of the scientific results (which btw inspired later the supporters of Dom -> Rom to make some adjustments in order to keep looking reliable). The Wikipedia is based on consensus, so you can't have your separate page (try it on your userpage). Also I'm giving you a warning for breaching WP:3RR. Next time you will revert in 24h it will be likely to receive a block. And I want to point out the presumptuos style of addresing of this user. Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 14:29, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

sigh: Was it really a good idea to ask for this page to be unprotected? Dewrad 15:21, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Too bad for you that you base your wiki activity concerning the Romani people only on intimidations and support from admins. Sooner or later you'll have to face the reality and stop this authoritarian stance. Desiphral-देसीफ्राल

15:48, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The difference between us: I add texts representing other viewpoints, you delete texts that you disagree with. This is not a way to form a consensus. I return to my suggestion: let's split the entry in such a way that we have a brief saying something like 'INterpretation of the early history is subject to debate' etc.; then you can describe your viewpoint, I'll describe mine, and we let the reader choose. Your remark about 'do this on your userpage' is just as applicable to yourself: but i'm not throwing it back at you. Let the user decide. What are you afraid of? why do you insist on playing thought-police and deleting every other opinion? Look at my 2002 book, chapter 3: there I described Hancock's view in a very sober and non-polemic way, because it's an introductory book and I wanted the reader to have access to all viewpoints. Whay can't you do the same with viewpoints that you disagree with?Madaares 01:47, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Political censorship in this article

I have been trying for over a year now to make some additions to the entry on 'Romani language'. At first, every time I added something, it was deleted within a few days. Finally, a couple of months ago, I found that the entry was 'blocked' for further amendment.

You can view my amendments on the History link. You will see that I did not attempt to delete or distort anybody else's views, but simply to add some points of view which, from the academic perspective on Romani linguistics, are absolutely mainstream, consensus views. The paragraph that I had added on 27 March 2007 was this:

"Most mainstream researchers in Romani linguistics and Romani ethnography hold the view that the exodus of the Rom(a) from India is part of the historical phenomenon of outwards migration from India of castes, specializing in certain trades. These groups will have originated in different areas within India, and spoken different (albeit related) Indian languages, and probably left the subcontinent at different times, taking different routes. However, many of them share ethnonyms that go back to similar caste names: the Rom of Europe, the Lom of the Caucasus and Anatolia, the Dom of the Middle East, are an example, all descending, it is assumed, from the Indian caste of the Dom. The latter is a cover-term for itinerant service-providing castes. This origin hypothesis allows to reconcile the linguistic and geographical diversity of minorities of Indian origin living outside of India, with the similarities between them in occupation profile, social status, name, and origin. However, in recent years political activists and Romani intellectuals have begun to reject this hypothesis, searching instead for a historical narrative that would connect their ancestors with 'high status' groups in Indian society, rather than with the low-status Dom. It is in this context that the works of people like Hancock, Lee, Rishi, and Kochanowski are to be interpreted."

I left the other paragraphs unchanged and untouched, allowing proponents of other views to display their opinions in full.

I should add perhaps, for the benefit of those who are unfamiliar with the debate, that there are essentially two interpretations of early Romani history. The first is held by virtually all academics working in the field, and has never been challenged in any academic forum: it is the view that sees a connection between the Rom and the Indian caste of Dom. The second view is held exclusively by political activists, based on what they call 'research', but which is not accepted in any academic context as real research. That view claims that the Roma descended from Rajput warriors. The activists who hold this view think it is benificial for the image of the Roma to be viewed as descendants of warriors who were taken prisoner.

Everybody is, of course, entitled to their views. But an activist by the name of Alin Dosoftei, who calls himself Desiphral, has, in this case, hijacked Wikipedia and is playing the role of an Opinion-Police, not allowing leading scholars in the field to express their own views. This is pure censorship, and the thought of these activists ever taking control of an education system or media in a particular region or sector makes me shiver.

On the 2nd of April,'Desphiral' erased the entire paragraph that I had added, and replaced it by one beginning with the following sentence:

"Regarding the ethnic origin, since, until recently, the study of the Romani origins was mostly done by non-Roma, they proposed and supported a descendance from the ?om caste, considered as a justification for the anti-Romani discrimination."

The suggestion, with reference to my work, that I support this theory in order to justify anti-Romani discrimination is as outrageous and libellous as it is ridiculous and absurd.

Desiphral has continued persistently to delete the same of similar paragraph every time I tried to restore it. From the previous Discussion items you will see that he has refused an offer to use the entry to tell both sides of the story, and has thus indicated that he will continue to play censor. Unfortunately, this reduced the crediblity of Wikipedia on this issue. Its readers will not be allowed to make up their minds based on the information they get, but will be subjected to Alin Dosoftei's thought police. Madaares 07:16, 29 June 2007 (UTC) Yaron Matras, Linguistics Professor at the University of Manchester.

No, you lie again. Yesterday you deleted most of the info about the Rajput -> Rom theory including the names of those who studied it (just the name of the initial Ralph Lilley Turner remained). On the other hand I did not delete the other opinion, I included it in the presentation from a chronological prespective, showing how they evolved and influenced each other. This is the way a wiki article is created. You can't have a separated area only for you. I can only ask you too: are you afraid of something? If it is removed the opinion that Dom->Rom is mainstream (which is your POV), basically your addition is repeating info from below.

Today I saw also that the user Dewrad made a complaint against me, while I think it was me the person entitled to make a complaint against you. Yesterday Y. Matras presented that libellous allegation "Alin Dosoftei from Romani Union of Romania" (nothing true in it, just his usual way of dismissing the other opinions as Romani activism, in this case by inventing such organizations) and nobody reacted. Instead, Dewrad, promoting himself as the true carrier of what is right and what is wrong at Wikipedia, accused me of racism and of dismissing the "non-Romani research as less reliable than the Romani research". If an outsider follows the discussion and knows the public opinons of Y. Matras in this issue, he/she may see how these allegations mirror the usual behaviour of this Professor. It is not me, but him who dismisses the other views as "Romani activism" (a veiled allusion that his non-Romani position is more entitled to a scientific approach, that Romani research is less reliable than the non-Romani research?). So keep these allegations for yourself, don't blame the others for your problems. I presented also the case of Gh. Sarau, nobody asking him about his ethnicity, because, he himself doesn't make such differences. As you can see in the article I had no problem myself too with his ethnicity, I presented his work there. These accusations and allegations could only enforce the opinion of many Roma that the non-Roma are liars, cheaters, disruptive, violent and disrespecful, that once stepping in their system a Rom has no rights. Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 12:39, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Mediation needed?

As the points of view of both Desiphral and Madaares seem to be irreconcilable, it would probably be a good idea here to ask an uninvolved third party to mediate on the dispute in order to reach consensus? Would you both be willing to accept mediation here? Dewrad 16:14, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Mediation by whom? I would reject anybody whose motivation to favour a particular viewpoint is political rather than scientific, because those people are using Wikipedia as a political pamphlet to create a particular image. Desiphral will no doubt reject anybody who is not a Rom (or does not claim to be a Rom). Nevertheless, I suggest Dr Peter Bakker of Aarhus University, who has been researching Romani for many years now, and Professor Victor Friedman of Chicago University, who is also an expert on the Romani language, and if that is not enough, then also Dr Vit Bubenik of St John's University in Newfoundland, who is one of the world's leading experts in Middle Indo-Aryan langauges.Madaares 02:01, 30 June 2007 (UTC)