Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Allegations of French apartheid

Allegations of French apartheid

Allegations_of_French_apartheid (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - (View log)

this article is a joke and a collection of clichés and lies. it has nothing to do with the apartheid definition and focus on algerian muslims living in france. this article is not serious and does not exist in the other wikipedia versions, i suggest its deletion. by the way there is nothing about northern ireland its real apartheid ha. Paris By Night 09:47, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

allegation of lies:

France maintained colonial rule in the territory which has been described as "quasi-apartheid" :this is stupid and totally false. there was no such things as US buses for black and white in algeria, :besides algeria was truly part of france as made of département like today corsica. for example muslim :children went in public schools with european french kids, i've seen worst apartheids. this view is a :simplification by american editors, reads like all mslim in france are from algeria, but this totally :false many comes from morroco and tunisia and black africa as well, all of which are former french :colony or protectorates, there is not a single word about this. this article is totaly oriented and a :mystification this can be seen in "Criticism"'s POV authors selection. this article doesn't exist in :other language, don't ask why. Paris By Night 09:40, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

plus there is nothing like "race" in france, france is not the united states! there is nothing like Racial segregation in the United States and never was, not even in algerian departements. Paris By Night 09:52, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

• This AfD nomination was incomplete. It is listed now. DumbBOT 11:21, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

• Speedy Keep article properly sourced and notable.--Cerejota 12:15, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete this and the whole series. They are all irredeemable POV collections of slurs. Mowsbury 12:47, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

You might find that the whole series would be deleted if they whole series was nominated in a group nomination. Individual AFD's have failed in all but one case up until now. My reason for my AFD vote here is that it the article seems to completely follow all of Wikipedia policies and requirements for articles, as can be seen both by its content and the precedent for dealing with its sister articles.--Urthogie 15:19, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Urthogie is absolutely right, Mowsbury. This is a WP:POINT and WP:ALLORNOTHING hostage-type situation. The editors creating these articles don't believe in them, and are willing to "trade" their deletion for the deletion of an article they're ideologically opposed to.--G-Dett 16:09, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Correction, I do believe in these articles so long as one of them exists. If only Brazil's apartheid allegation article existed, then that would be singling out Brazil. It's an NPOV issue, not a POINT issue. And WP:ALLORNOTHING applies to justification for AFD votes, not suggested new AFD's or changes in notability policies.--Urthogie 16:28, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

• Speedy Keep Well sourced article drawing from numerous notable publications. If there's a POV problem, fix it. JulesH 12:53, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Delete - WP:POINT by the article creator who has been a frequent, noted critic of Allegations of Israeli apartheid article. Variations of this tactic have been used too many times to count. Tarc 13:25, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
• Speedy keep. Doesn't meet any criteria for deletion. Seems like a bad faith nomination. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 13:36, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete. An encyclopedia deals with facts, not allegations. >Radiant< 14:13, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep - there is a precedent for keeping "allegations of apartheid" articles. If someone created an AFD for all of these articles, that would have a strong chance of succeeding. It is irrational, however, to apply differing standards from one article to the next. Also, to Paris by Night, I believe race does exist in the French mind-- at least according to Frantz Fanon!--Urthogie 14:23, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
• Weak delete. There are a couple of sources that actually appear to pursue the comparison. Most on the other hand merely use the word "apartheid" once for what appears to be rhetorical effect. These passages are then presented in such a way as to make the rhetorical effect look like an extended comparison. All fifteen of the sources are listed twice, first as "Notes" and then as "References," in order to give the illusion of depth in sourcing. The fact that this article has been cobbled together by two editors who know nothing about the subject matter and are merely compiling quotes they've found through Google-searches, and that the WP:POINT of all this is to create a bargaining chip with which to bring about the deletion of an article they're ideologically opposed to, doesn't bode well for its future quality. I vote only "weak delete," however, because I don't know that much more about the subject than the authors do, so it's possible that there's a quality article to be written on this by an editor with genuine interest in and knowledge of the subject. If that's the case – that is, if there are sufficient RS-foundations for this and such an editor comes forward, I wish him or her the best of luck in coaxing the article out of the sweaty palms of the pranksters now clutching it. For the purposes of this AfD, the comments and recommendations of editors with experience editing France-related (or civil-rights-related) articles should be given much more weight than those of other editors.--G-Dett 16:36, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Isn't it ironic to advocate that some people's votes should count more than others when discussing apartheid? – Quadell ^{(talk) (random)} 18:40, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
    • It is indeed ironic. It seems that self-righteousness always brings the worse in people, regardless of the truth of their arguments. --Cerejota 16:25, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
      • Pretty weak as ironies go, given that Wikipedia is not a democracy, given that AfD's are explicitly not to be regarded as votes (because "justification and evidence for a response carry far more weight than the response itself"), and given that I'm not placing myself in the category of those whose recommendations should be given greater weight. But share your irony with the right people, and we might see an article called Allegations that arguments used in AfD discussions are like apartheid.--G-Dett 17:07, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
        • Touché ;). I follow French politics very closely and my daily news fix comes largely from French-language papers. I have never, not a single time, encountered the word "apartheid" in the context of French racial problems. And let's remember they're not only limited to France, they've spilled over to Belgium, too. Cars have been set on fire here in Brussels as they were in France but I think the press here just knows what apartheid is, and what isn't. We're talking racial and religious tensions here, not official discrimination of any kind.--Targeman 17:24, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
        • Pretty strong, actually; you attempt to create two classes of "voters", with an ostensibly neutral classification, but in actuality affecting mostly editors who have argued that this article should be kept. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:53, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
          • Oh, drop it already. You're late on the joke and you're not making any sense. At the time I wrote that the comments and recommendations of France-focused editors should be given greater weight, exactly two France-focused editors had "voted": one for delete (the nominator), one for "speedy keep" (JulesH).--G-Dett 23:35, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Apartheid in the strict sense means systematised segregation condoned by the authorities. France does not have apartheid. Either that, or every single western country has apartheid. All the quotes cited in the article are in the pejorative sense, "blatant, gross, discrimination or racism" (of which any country in the world can be accused of).--Victor falk 18:03, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete because these are allegations. Allegations are just allegations and unless proven in court or through media. This will be appropriate as a subsection of French apartheid, but not on its own Corpx 18:20, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

French apartheid does not exist as an article, it is a redirect to this page. It seems to be that you are actually suggesting a rename to french apartheid, not a delete.--Urthogie 18:25, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

• No, not a rename. A french apartheid article would have to be created from scratch, which analyzes the orgins/history/ending etc of it, with the allegations being a part of it. Corpx 18:41, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Allegations are just allegations unless proven, yes. But "allegations" that by their very nature can never be proven or disproven – because they're subjective, evaluative, interpretive, comparative, vituperative, etc., rather than falsifiable statements of fact – are not, of course, "allegations" at all. But if you're asking for basic literacy from the scribes behind this hoax, you'd be asking too much.--G-Dett 18:35, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

• I disagree. Allegations can definitely be proven right/wrong. First hand accounts, court-proceedings etc all prove allegations to be true or false. It'd be better off in a form similiar to [[1]] instead of purely being a list of allegations Corpx 18:41, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

• Er, you agree then. "Allegations can definitely be proven right/wrong." Yes, exactly, that's my point. Things that can never be proven right or wrong are not called "allegations" – they're called comparisons, interpretations, analogies, critiques, whatever it is that they are. Thomas Jefferson allegedly fathered several children by his slaves, very well, no problem. But not: Thomas Jefferson was allegedly a hypocrite.--G-Dett 18:56, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
• Heh, I disagree again. How exactly would one go about proving who Jefferson went around fathering babies with? I'm saying that these allegation against ____ have no merit to stand on their own, but instead should be part of the article in question. Corpx 19:07, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

DNA, maybe? The point is, allegations are statements of fact. They are things that either did happen or did not happen; proof/disproof are at least conceivable even if not practical. Subjective judgments, however – statements to the effect that X resembles Y, or is reminiscent of it, or whatever – are not "allegations." Oh, hell, it doesn't matter – when language slides, let it slide, you can't stop glaciers. --G-Dett 19:29, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

• Keep - Some allegations are noteworthy and encyclopedic. See Protocols of the Elders of Zion, for example. If there weren't reliable sources, then I'd say they were unencyclopedic allegations, but these seem noteworthy. We can't pretend the allegations don't exist. – Quadell ^{(talk) (random)} 18:39, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete, quite obviously. A neologism. Let us not fool ourselves: everyone who comes here knows that this article's creation and continued existence is disruptive; it was created in response to the Israeli Apartheid article (which, I maintain, should be about the use of the term and not the mess of charges and counter-charges it is now) in order to indicate that allegations of apartheid are widespread. This is WP:POINT; however widespread segregation, even legal segregation is, the only term that is encyclopaedic is Israeli Apartheid. The others are all, quite simply, WP:POINT. The article is terribly written, largely OR, reading far too much into one or two op-eds. Delete with extreme prejudice. Hornplease 19:22, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep The article is in line with other "Allegations of (country) apartheid" articles. Beit Or 19:35, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

That it's "in line with" some other junk created by the same authors is self-evident, but how is this an argument for its retention?--G-Dett 19:42, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Those articles have, like the Israeli apartheid article, survived AFD's.--Urthogie 19:45, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

"Allegations of Andorran Apartheid" would also be 'in line with' other articles. Clearly not a good enough reason to keep this junk.Hornplease 19:50, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

There are no reliable sources dealing with "andorran apartheid."--Urthogie 20:01, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

And none here either. Use of the word 'apartheid' in combination with 'France' does not make a notable phrase, or even a notable allegation. Which you know. Hornplease 20:18, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

What does make a notable phrase, then?--Urthogie 20:19, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

There could be several standards. This isn't one by any reasonable standard.Hornplease 20:52, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

• Question for those who maintain that that Israel article is somehow unique. What is your basis for that? The Chinese apartheid article features quotes from the Dalai Lama and our lord and savior Jimmy Wales. Aside from length and controversiality, what exactly seperates allegations against Israel as unique, aside from the disproprotionate amount of press coverage the Middle East receives, thus resulting in more possible reliable sources?--Urthogie 20:04, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

The disproportionate amount of coverage and analysis the Middle East receives. Oh, you answered it in your question. Hornplease 20:19, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Oh, so, it's a completely subjective decision about a quantitative value, then? 20 articles is enough coverage, 10 is not..? Or is it 15? Please define an actual qualitative, rather than quantitative reason for keeping the Israel one and not the others. Thanks, --Urthogie 20:20, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

No, because you miss the point. Even if the conditions in Israel are not unique, the disproportionate coverage and analysis raises otherwise non-notable allegations to encyclopaedic notability. And as for 'qualititative, not quantitative" - that's not how we work. Horrible, apartheid-like conditions may prevail in Andorra, but until everyone and Jimmy Carter gets involved, WP doesn't care. Hornplease 20:24, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

1. The Israeli apartheid article existed for years before Jimmy Carter's comments. Would you have supported its existence before his comments?
2. The article on alleged Chinese apartheid includes stuff from Jimbo Wales, from the Dalai Lama. Would you therefore support the existence of that article?--Urthogie 20:30, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Not that it matters about my opinions, but the talkpage of that article shows I was highly ambivalent about it, and I did not vote to keep on any of the AfDs prior to the mainstreaming of the phrase.

Chinese Apartheid is a phrase marginally notable purely because the Dalai Lama used it a few times in the early 1990s. I would not vote to keep or delete that article. Jimbo is irrelevant.

I trust that satisfies you about my motives. I am not going to discuss them again.Hornplease 20:48, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

• "Stuff" is a pretty good word for the China article's haphazard sourcing, though I still prefer "junk." Take a look at the Dalai Lama source: a BBC article in which the word "apartheid" appears once, in a pull-quote. This is what I mean by 'passing reference,' and it does absolutely nothing to support the legitimacy or notability of a subject. Move on to the Heritage Foundation block-quote, which a Wikipedian has misrepresented (deliberately?) as "discuss[ing] some of the reasons for the use of this term." No it doesn't. It's just juicy material from an article that in a subsequent passage, and in a different context, makes passing reference to apartheid: "Through what has been termed Chinese apartheid, ethnic Tibetans now have a lower life expectancy, literacy rate, and per capita income than Chinese inhabitants of Tibet." That's the only mention of apartheid in the entire article. What does the material Wikipedia quotes at length have to do with it? Nothing. It's just more "stuff." Move on to the Desmond Tutu stuff. Tutu tells the Tibetans God is on their side, and our boys type "Nobel Peace Prize winner Desmond Tutu has also drawn comparisons between the fight to end South African apartheid and the Tibetan struggle for independence from the People's Republic of China." If Tutu speaks to a room full of terminally ill patients and tells them not to lose heart, our boys will be able to create Allegations that Cancer is Apartheid. Now to the Jimbo Wales reference. Here the article suddenly becomes cryptic: the only direct quote is something odd from Wales about how Google has "damaged the brand image of 'Don't be evil,'" by giving in to Chinese authorities." Huh? Whuh? Then you click on the link and find that the original article didn't even quote Wales on apartheid, it just mentioned in passing that Wales himself had made a passing mention of apartheid. Jimbo objects to Chinese censorship in strong terms; the AP quotes his strong words, then mentions in free indirect that he also invoked South Africa; and our boys type up eagerly what AP could barely be bothered to mention, and throw in a driver's-licence/college-yearbook style photo of Jimbo to liven things up. There's no context, no explanation, we don't even understand what the comparison was, just the smiling snapshot, serene in its irrelevance. Stuff. Junk. Stuffed with junk.--G-Dett 21:10, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

• Comment I fail to see how WP:POINT is involved, as there is no disruption here. Everyone seems to be assuming bad faith about the contributor who has written this article, and I see no reason to think that. The article discusses allegations that are, in fact, notable, having been reported in multiple reliable sources, and having apparently had significant impacts on French culture and politics. I see no reason to delete here. JulesH 20:10, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Head, meet sand. WP:Ostrich in reverse here. The fact of self-segregation may have had a significant impact on French society. Some commentators see such self-segregation as resulting in apartheid-like conditions. Sourcing the first and the second to reliable sources and then putting them together is the very nature of OR.Hornplease 20:24, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

No two things are being synthesized together. The entire page is about one thing-- the rhetoric of alleging apartheid against France.--Urthogie 20:31, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the page is about that, or so the title attests. My analysis of the sources, however, is one I recommend to all others who wish to comment.Hornplease 20:50, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

• Comment perhaps we should take "apartheid" and put it on the list of words that are not to be used for article titles; like "cult" (except when dealing with ancient observances called cults in their own time) and "tyrant" (except for certain ancient Greek rulers so-called as a neutral title in their own time). Allegations of Fooian apartheid is little differen that allegations that so-and-so is a tyrant, or allegations that Fooism is a cult, etc. Carlossuarez46 20:34, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
• Merge with 2005 civil unrest in France. The allegations of "apartheid" are largely limited to this period and its aftermath. Please let's not devalue the word "apartheid" which means an official policy of segregation --> South Africa before Mandela, the US before Luther King, Nazi Germany. There is not and never has been any such policy in France. --Targeman 20:48, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
• Either Keep all Allegations of X apartheid or Delete them all. Per NPOV, no preferential treatment. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 20:54, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

NPOV does not require equal treatment of articles of unequal notability. Hornplease 21:07, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Of course not. And the loudest scream is not an indication of being right. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 21:25, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

And being right has got nothing to do with being notable. I trust you will keep to reasonable arguments for deletion in future.Hornplease 21:35, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

"Either Keep all Allegations of X apartheid or Delete them all." Thanks, Humus, for aptly summing up the hostage situation and making clear your demands.--G-Dett 21:27, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Pfft. To make my "demands" clear, Keep. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 21:58, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

• Speedy Keep. Article is well written, encyclopedic, and uses high quality sources, and WP:IDONTLIKEIT isn't a valid reason for deleting. Nor are the various ad hominem comments that have peppered this AfD. The article also uses sources that all refer directly to French apartheid, and multiple sources refer to the same issues, so there are not WP:NOR issues. Finally, I did an experiment last night and hit the "Random article" button twenty times; the majority of articles didn't even have any references, and the best article only had four. This one has 15, and the article itself was longer than all but 3 articles. I recommend this test to other editors, to see how this article stacks up against the Wikipedia norm. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:15, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

That the article is well-written is debatable and, in any case, irrelevant. That it uses high-quality sources is possible, but that those sources have been used in synthesizing original research is likely, which is something I notice you have not addressed. Such misuse of sources is a concern as endemic to this project as unsourced assertions. Hornplease 22:37, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Since you have edited your post in an attempt deal with my concerns, which should perhaps have been done in response, I hope you will permit me to reply: the sources to not refer 'directly' to French apartheid. The quotes say things like "France is disintegrating before our eyes into socioeconomic communities, into territorial and social apartheid. The rich live in their own ghettos.". "Algerians encountered France's 'civilising mission' only through the plundering of lands and colonial apartheid society.." etc, etc. In each case, apartheid is used as a convenient signifier for a stable segregation. None of the sources make any effort to categorically compare France to apartheid-era SA; none of the sources make an effort to analyse a discourse which would use that term; practically none of the sources even use the term "French apartheid". (Perhaps because most of the people writing, polemicists though they are, seem to be better researchers than us.) Put simply, this could be held up as a textbook example of bad original research. Hornplease 23:20, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete per nomination. --Dezidor 22:26, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep As I have said elsewhere, I generally do not like "Allegations of" articles (or articles that amount ot that even when not so-called). However, what I'd like would be cherry-picking which allegations are "true" and deleting the rest. If someone wanted to put all of these articles up for an AfD, I'd be willing to vote yes. IronDuke 00:23, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep together with all other "Allegations of XXXX apartheid", or better, delete them all. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:29, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
• Comment: If this article is to be kept, please get rid of the word "apartheid"! This is an intolerable abuse of language. As I said before, let's not water down the meaning of apartheid. What next, Allegations of French genocide of Muslims? "Apartheid" is waaaaay over the top. And it's an insult to the memory of the victims of true apartheid. --Targeman 00:40, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Is the use of the term "apartheid" an "intolerable abuse of language" only in the case of this particular article, or is it an "intolerable abuse" in all six "Allegations of apartheid" articles? Jayjg ^(talk) 14:35, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

• "Apartheid" is an incorrect term for all of the mentioned countries except Saudi Arabia, which has a clear, unambiguous and systematically enforced official policy of segregation - of sexes in this case. For other countries, "widespread discrimination" or "officially endorsed discrimination" or similar would be a more appropriate term. --Targeman 17:04, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

• Oddly enough, many editors here insist that it is only applicable in the case of Israel. Jayjg ^(talk) 17:43, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

• It is applicable not so much to Israel as to the Occupied Territories - which only Israel recognizes as its own territory. In Israel itself (i.e., the part internationally recognized as Israel), racism and mistrust permeate all levels of society but there's nothing like an official policy of segregation.--Targeman 18:13, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

• Keep per jossi. --tickle me 04:10, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete, not notable in and of itself. Although the Algeria aspects should be keep and integrated into the article on Frances involvement in Algeria. French apartheid really should be about apartheid in France proper. Right now the article is too much of an arbitrary collection without a focus, something that Wikipedia is NOT. --CGM1980 05:19, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
• Comment Based on User:Targeman's comment, I'm wondering if people would be more generally happy if the article were renamed to Racism in France and its scope expanded to cover this subject more fully? JulesH 07:12, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

• Comment: not really. Racism is just an expression of universal human stupidity. If we had an article about everything stupid humans have ever done, Wikipedia would need a server the size of the solar system. What I'm objecting to is the awful word apartheid in this context. Nobody talks about Stalinist gulags in Putin's Russia or the resurgence of Nazism in Germany because there are a few Hitler nuts left around. I personally propose to merge this article into 2005 civil unrest in France. Racism is widespread in France as it is everywhere but it has never, ever been a matter of public policy. What France is facing are the usual effects of a massive and largely monoethnic immigration of blue-collar workers into a sclerotic economy that just can't cope. Sure this breeds disgruntlement but apartheid, no way. --Targeman 11:01, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
• Comment: JulesH's suggestion is a good one, given that most of the sources for this article are articles about racism, and few if any of them are about "allegations of French apartheid". Targeman's demurral is also well-reasoned, but this is a moot discussion either way. The authors of this article will never permit the title to be changed, no matter what the substantive support for such a move, because their very WP:POINT in cobbling this page together was to use it as a bargaining chip to secure the deletion of a different article. For the hoax to work, both the original article and the hostage/bargaining chip article need to have parallel titles. Have a look at the demands made explicitly by HumusSapiens and Jossi (and insinuated by Jayjg) above, and by Amoruso below, and the mechanics of the hoax will become clearer.--G-Dett 15:42, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

  I don't suppose it would help to request that you focus on the article, and the relevant policies, rather than your impressions regarding other editors? And is there any point in requesting that you tone down your rhetoric while you're at it? Jayjg ^(talk) 17:41, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

• Strong Keep no valid problems with article unless all apartheid allegations against democracies are removed for policy reason/encyclopedic - see jossi. Amoruso 13:02, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

• Why all or nothing? The point here is if there is a noticeable debate of allegations of apartheid against the French government. Debates against other governments may or may not be substantiated, but there are not in this article. It is just a collection of quotes from articles using "apartheid" as hyperbole for racism and discrimination in France.--Victor falk 14:18, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

• Keep per Quadell Taprobanus 14:50, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep. The article is well sourced to notable scholars, all using the apartheid analogy. Isarig 15:12, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

• No it is not. Please read them. I don't call an article that first has a section "Notes" which contains footnotes and then a section "References" that contains almost but not all the same sources in the former "well-sourced". The sources are not to notable scholars, or even unnotable ones, but mostly to massmedia news items. And hardly any of them uses the word "apartheid" more than once, and generally in a wholly incidental manner.--Victor falk 16:06, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Excuse me? The very first reference cites David Scott Bell – a professor of French Government and Politics at Leeds university, and the author of several authoritative books on contemporary French politics. The second cites a peer reviewed book published by one of the leading publishers of academic research which discussed French policy in Algeria. He third is yet again, a book published by the University of California Press, by a noted UC professor of History considered by some to be one of America's best historians of post--World War II French politics. How are these non-notable academics or "massmedia news items"? Isarig 17:53, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

1st ref: the word "apartheid" appears once (p.36) in a 286-page book on Presidential power in Fifth Republic France. 2nd ref: the word "apartheid" appears once on page 3 of a 233-page book called France and the Algerian Conflict: Issues in Democracy and Political Stability, 1988-1995. 3rd ref: "apartheid" appears once, on p.262 of the 335-page France, the United States, and the Algerian War. The problem with this article is not that it lacks sufficient scholarly sources; the problem is that none of these sources talk about "allegations of French apartheid." They just use the word "apartheid," once apiece. They do not even pursue the comparison; they just use the word and move on. When Wikipedians gather up stray instances of a word's use from primary sources, and then describe the pattern of use they see and create a narrative around it, the result is original research.--G-Dett 20:45, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

I was responding to the (obviously false and ridiculous) claim that "The sources are not to notable scholars, or even unnotable ones, but mostly to massmedia news items". When such patently false objections are raised, it seems likely that the people making them have not bothered to look at the article. If you'd like to raise a different objection, such as that in your view the scholarly sources do not make the allegation of Apartheid strongly enough, that's quite a different matter, and probably not something for which we can find an objective metric. Isarig

Again, the problem is that next to none of these sources talk about "allegations of French apartheid." To have a Wikipedia article on a subject, you need reliable sources who talk about it. That a pattern in various writers' use of the word "apartheid" is detected by two Wikipedians and the mayor of Montpellier does not make it a notable topic.--G-Dett 21:12, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

• Keep per Isarig Jayjg Zeq Humus SlimVirgin Shamir1 and co. The subject is non-notable, but the article should be kept as an instructive example of how far the Zionists will go in their attempts to deflect criticism from their regime. If they spend their time and energies attacking the French, they might give the rest of us a break. ابو علي (Abu Ali) 15:37, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

So you are advocating keeping an article you believe is non-notable, as a way to make a point, while conducting a personal attack on other editors. Considering how little regard you have for WP policies, you should really rethink your involvement in the project. Isarig 16:09, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete. Whatever one thinks of the Israel apartheid debate, the fact is that a prominent, fractious and complex discussion and evolved. You have big names, you have wide opposition, and you have a standard list of points, facts, and arguments that recurringly come up. The end result is a topic that can't effectively be discussed in any other articles that have been suggested. With this article, I don't see any of that; solely a principle that all countries should be treated the same, never mind whether the issues or discussions actually differ. If we have a discussion of apartheid in Algeria, then it seems that would much better fit in French rule in Algeria. If we have a discusion of the Social situation in the French suburbs, then a neutral article also already exists. Unless those are somehow inadequate, then I don't see why this article is needed or appropriate. Mackan79 15:43, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

• Comment: Mackan is right that the sheer volume of RS-foundations for Allegations of Israeli apartheid dwarfs that of this article, but it's worth noting that the difference is not only one of scale but of kind. In the Israeli case, there is a large, long-standing and multifaceted debate and discussion of the allegations themselves. That debate and discussion is the subject and raison d'être of the article. The only rationale for having an article on allegations or analogies (as opposed to articles on the policies in question – the Israeli occupation, French colonial history or current socioeconomic inequalities, etc.) is that the allegation/analogy is itself a notable subject. This is simply not the case of this article. It is wholly unlike the Israel article in this respect. Not one of the fifteen sources for Allegations of French apartheid is about the analogy; each is about some other topic (Algeria, post-colonial inequalities in France, the debate about the veil, gender relations within Muslim immigrants), and in the course of talking about that other topic the word "apartheid" is used metaphorically. Usually only once. That's right: even in the several academic studies cited for this article, which are hundreds of pages long, the word apartheid appears only once. The only statements about the analogy/allegation in the entire article that aren't pure original research by Jay or Urthogie are 1) a diverseeducation.com reference to the opinions of a Professor Hutchinson; and 2) the comment from the mayor of Montpellier, which is misattributed to a Guardian article in which it never appeared. In short, unlike the Israel article, this article presents a topic that almost none of its supposed sources have even addressed. It's an article about a pattern of linguistic usage, and one noticed not by RS's but rather by Jay and Urthogie. This isn't a Wikipedia article; this is a piece of investigative journalism, carried out by editors using Google and Googlebooks to track down every instance in which someone used the word "apartheid" in connection with anything French. The results of this original research cum investigative journalism have then been cobbled together and made to superficially resemble the Israel article, for the WP:POINT-purposes I've detailed above.--G-Dett 16:31, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

• keep  ??? Ya got 4 references where apartheid appears as a key word in the title, don't go interpreting for us that it's "only a metaphor" and therefore "unlike the Israel article", etc. "a pattern of linguistic usage" indeed. that phrase alone oughta enter the wikipedia halls of verbal obfuscation. Gzuckier 17:43, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
• Actually, the statement by the Mayor did appear in a Guardian article: France wakes up to plight of its forgotten cities. Jayjg ^(talk) 17:41, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
• The posters glued above the entrance to the flats call on locals to join the fight against a state policy of "urban apartheid". [...] "Terms like urban apartheid are overdramatic," [Montpellier's socialist mayor, Hélène Mandroux,] said. "We recognise the problem and we are trying to deal with it, but this is not Johannesburg in the 1980s. Those are the two only and only two instances in the article where "apartheid" is mentioned. And this is supposed to be a source establishing widespread and scholarly allegations of systematic racial segregation by the French authorities?--Victor falk 18:01, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

• Please review straw man. I'm curious, how many comments do you and G-Dett plan to make on this AfD; will you be responding to every single vote and comment in favor of keeping the article? Jayjg ^(talk) 18:10, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

• Jay, the problem is that you're foisting highly controversial material on diverse areas of Wikipedia, while refusing to consider whether it could be better covered under another title. Can you explain why this material can't fit under Social situation in the French suburbs, French rule in Algeria, and/or 2005 civil unrest in France? I so far haven't seen anyone address these points. As one benefit, while nobody appears to have actually responded to the allegations in this article, the existing examples are able to attempt a balanced look at the situation. Mackan79 18:45, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

If you want to propose a split, the way to go is through the talk page, not an AFD.--Urthogie 18:51, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

• Mackan79, as I've explained to you before, I'm not "foisting" anything on anyone - there have been 10 of these articles, I created only one, and the material is arguably even more controversial in other articles than this one. As for the non ad hominem part of your statement, it would seem to apply equally well to every single article in the series, not just this one. Jayjg ^(talk) 18:55, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

• My reason for deletion is that it's a POV fork, which isn't an argument against Jay, but against the article. As to proper names, I don't see how that can possibly be determined across 10 articles. Social situation in the French suburbs strikes me as a surprisingly good fit, partially because I don't see that the allegations themselves have gained enough momentum to disrupt that article if properly weighed. The constant refusal and/or inability to defend this article on its own merits, though, but instead to demand contrasts with other articles, seems to me the major problem. Mackan79 19:19, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

• POV fork? That's a new one. Quite odd for material that hasn't existed anywhere else, and that reasoning has been soundly rejected in previous AfDs on similar articles. Anyway, quite a number of people have stated why the article should be kept on its own merits; perhaps you should re-read their comments. Jayjg ^(talk) 21:13, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

• In the AoIa debates, we entertained a number of suggestions for where to better cover the material, without any solid case being made. While some suggested an article on Human Rights in Israel or in the West Bank, it was pointed out that any adequate discussion of the apartheid debate would clearly disrupt such articles, while "Human Rights" also doesn't really cover the issues. Here, it seems that Social situation in the French suburbs is exactly on point, is neutral, and would fully allow for any apartheid discussion, while also solving the problem not seen in the AoIa article of an otherwise completely unanswered allegation. Can you imagine the Israel article, and the response, if it lacked any statement of disagreement with the analogy whatsoever? As I said, I'm not talking about your intentions, but if this title completely prevents a two-sided examination, and if a more appropriate article can hold the material, then it seems an open and shut case that this article should be deleted or merged as a POV fork. I have still yet to see a response. Also, I think you're incorrect that this has been rejected, as at least one of these articles was soundly deleted.[2] Mackan79 00:18, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

• This article is about allegations of apartheid, though, not about the social situation in the French suburbs. Also, this article already contains opposing views. Regarding the argument being rejected, I was referring to more recent arguments. Actually, I wasn't even aware of that Australian article. It appears to have been deleted mostly because it was just a stub and wasn't properly developed. Fortunately, however, this article, while it still has room to grow, suffers from none of the flaws of that one. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:26, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

• This article may be about allegations of apartheid, but none of its sources is – except, for a split second, that thing about the mayor.--G-Dett 03:39, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

• Keep in order to maintain consistency with other articles, pending a "global" resolution of the issue of "apartheid" articles, as discussed in the Arbitration Committee decision almost a year ago. I also think this discussion might go better without the personal attacks against the editors who created/worked on this article. 6SJ7 15:45, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep The Guardian is a strong RS as far as I'm concerned. The fact that the comment from the mayor of Montpellier is misattributed doesn't mean it does not exist: France wakes up to plight of its forgotten cities. Chesdovi 16:48, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

This is your reason for keeping? A single sourceable statement that's actually about the purported topic?--G-Dett 16:57, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

This article is 3 days old. Instead of voting to delete it, have you tried sourcing this subject further to bring it up to standard? Give it a chance! Chesdovi 22:57, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi Chesovi. I voted weak delete, and clarified that I'd support the article if serious editors came forward and made a serious case for it. I don't know much more about France than the authors of the article do, and I'm not aware of any notable discussion/debate about the topic among reliable sources. That, coupled with my experience of the two editors in question collaborating on frivolous articles that seriously abuse source materials in order to fight a bizarre rear-guard action against an article about Israel-Palestine, makes me skeptical. I am ready to be proven wrong. If evidence emerges that there is a notable, extensive discourse about alleged similarities between France and South Africa (as opposed to a miscellany of quotations on colonialism, urban poverty, gender relations within Islam, ethnic assimilation and secularism, and the headscarf controversy, each data-mined quote bejeweled with the searchword "apartheid", and arrayed together in a constellation of idiosyncratic pointlessness), then I'll happily eat my words and support the article.--G-Dett 01:18, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

• Speedy keep. This is a frivolous nomination. The article is well-researched and contains copious sourcing, and concerns a subject (French racism) that is very much in the news every day. --Mantanmoreland 17:07, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

• I'm curious as to what news channels you follow, that speak of French racism every single day.

• Comment Quite a few people here just asserting that this article is well sourced or researched. I enjoin everybody to really check those sources, and see for themselves that they are mostly irrelevant. Eg, they do not in any meaningful manner claim and argue that the French government consciously makes systematic racial discrimination an official or unofficial policy.--Victor falk 17:44, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep per Urthogie altmany 17:50, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
• Merge with Allegations of Israeli apartheid per Jayjg. -- Y not? 18:45, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
• either keep this one or delete them all per Humus Sapians. These is an obvious POV fork. It is very POV to have articles accusing some countries of apartheid while not allowing a similar attacks against others. Allegations of apartheid is an attack against that country, and cannot be written in a neutral manner. The closest thing we can do to make it neutral is allow the allegations against every country. This is the only way to balance it out.--Sefringle^Talk 19:43, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
• Comment: has anyone else noticed this debate is already longer than the disputed article and its discussion page combined? --Targeman 21:05, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

• It's nothing compared to this: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Allegations of Israeli apartheid (fifth nomination) or this: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Allegations of apartheid (third nomination) or . Jayjg ^(talk) 21:19, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

• Most of this however is from Israel-Palestine-focused editors. It would be good to get more input from France-focused editors. Targeman, Victor falk, JulesH et al, is there a Wikiproject for France where you could post this?--G-Dett 22:38, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

• Notwithstanding your exquisitely ironic attempts to create two classes of "voters" on this AfD, it is unclear that "France-focused editors" would have any better an understanding of policy, nor is it clear that they would be any more neutral when it came to making these kinds of determinations. On the contrary, given the topic, one might expect them to be less neutral; indeed, their comments so far generally indicate that, User:Paris By Night's nearly inarticulate rant about "a collection of clichés and lies" when listing it being a good example. In any event, it has already been posted on the France Wikiproject Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/France. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:53, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

As for me, I'm based in Belgium but I'm intimately familiar with France and the French press, from the Canard enchaîné to Le Figaro. Here is my, I believe, fairly objective summary of what's really going on in France:

1. Racial tensions exist and are due above all to the high level of unemployment in France (about 10%).
2. Racial hatred is expressed nearly exclusively toward Muslim immigrants. Although they are not the most numerous minority, they are the most visible and vocal and thus attract unwelcome attention.
3. France is arguably the most secular state in Europe. (Radical) Islam, indeed any in-your-face religious observance, is a major social faux-pas.
4. Ghetto warfare and the alleged "apartheid" are mostly limited to the overcrowded, low-income suburbs of large cities like Paris and Marseilles. Vast swaths of rural and small-town France remain free of any such tensions.
5. France has never allowed, tacitly or openly, any form of racial or national segregation. On the contrary: huge emphasis is placed on applying the same laws to everybody without accomodating anybody's religious or political sensibilities. The aim is a "melting pot" as opposed to the "patchwork" multiculturalism practiced in the UK and US. Whether the results so far are promising is debatable.

So there you are, this is what I had to say. The article's subject matter is valid but the title is not. Over to you. --Targeman 23:34, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

This is illuminating, Targeman, but with respect, the question of this article's legitimacy depends not on the validity of the "apartheid" comparison, but rather its notability. It depends, that is, on whether there is a prominent, notable, and enduring debate/discussion about alleged similarities between France and apartheid South Africa. The article in its current form obviously doesn't support this, but then the article in its current form has been written almost entirely by editors with little knowledge of or interest in France or civil-rights issues. So it's theoretically possible that there is a notable debate going on that they haven't been able to track down in their data-mining google searches. To get a sense of what the evidence for such a wide-ranging discussion and debate would look like, have a look at Allegations of Israeli apartheid. The quality of the article at any given moment fluctuates wildly due to all the edit-warring, but the bibliography is pretty stable, and gives a good idea of what's missing from this article.--G-Dett 00:20, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Racism as a social debate in France is 100% notable. Try talking to a French person 5 minutes and the subject will be brought up. But apartheid? Nonsense. There is no such social debate. Well, maybe amongst Muslim immigrants themselves, but it's not mainstream and is totally absent from the French press. Which is not known for shying away from difficult debates. --Targeman 00:31, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

• Keep per jossi, and please, no attacks. Tewfik^Talk 08:01, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

• Please show some consideration for the template shown at the start of this discussion: If you came here because somebody asked you to, or you read a message on a forum, please note that this is not a majority vote, but rather a discussion to establish a consensus amongst Wikipedia editors on whether a page or group of pages is suitable for this encyclopedia.--Victor falk 08:20, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

• Please do not move my comments. Per means I read the rationale, and agree with it, and do not want to duplicate it. Tewfik^Talk 08:49, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

• My expertise on France is limited to being born there, spending less than half the three decades I've lived there, and visiting relatives at most twice a year, but I concur with Targeman; though racism is one of the most vigorously discussed subjects in politics, that there would be a serious and notable debate in France about wether apartheid reigns is nonsensical. But this is irrelevant. This article has nothing to do with eventual apartheid in France. It has been created as a disinformation device in a propaganda war. Together with other articles in the same vein its purpose is to create white noise in which to drown one sides' allegations against the other. This is exactly the type of article that bring the worst kind of disrepute on Wikipedia, much worse that it has low quality, low standards, is error-prone, or simply biased: that it is helplessly captive to the gross attempts at manipulating public perception by the participants in some local middle eastern conflict. --Victor falk 07:45, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

• Mu. I find the {{Allegations of apartheid}} "series" of articles extremely fishy and WP:POINTy in general; see G-Dett's comment above. Most of them focus on a stupid enumeration of instances "who compared the situation in country X with Appartheid". I recommend thorough re-reading of WP:SYN, and recent flood of deletions of "Anti-Fooian sentiment" articles on the basis of WP:SYN; I think I should add WP:LOOKHOWMANYSOURCES to WP:ATA. That being said, some of the contents of this article are salvageable, provided that the editors focus on legitimate issues of segregation problems in said countries (which are sometimes not even ethno-religiously based, see Allegations of tourist apartheid in Cuba). A casual glance over Google search for segregation in france reveals a lot of scholarly and serious analysis of Segregation in France, which is a) much less loaded and value-neutral term than Apartheid b) can be reasonably proven to exist as a real issue, even despite (or because) the government efforts. The term "segregation" is perhaps not ideal, but at least it does not have the connotation that the governments actively promote the separation. And it will remove the artificial, navel-gazing connection between various {{Allegations of apartheid}}, leaving the fate of each of respective articles to be resolved on its own merits. The "series" should be dissasembled. This one has merits but has a wrong focus. So, rename for the start; resolve the scoping problems against Social situation in the French suburbs. If not improved in that direction, submit to AfD again. Duja► 15:21, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
  • P.S. I took a thorough read of the previous discussion after writing the above, largely for the purpose of not allowing myself to be biased. Upon reading, I fully endorse Mackan79 and G-Dett's comments on this being largely a POV-fork. In case it wasn't clear from my previous statement, I equally endorse merge to appropriate article(s), with their organization left upon editor's discretion. The title and the focus of this article are hugely inadequate, on several grounds WP:SYN, WP:UNDUE, WP:NPOV, WP:POVFORK. Duja► 15:32, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

• Yours is by far the most useful contribution to this discussion so far. I hereby rescind my vote of Delete and now endorse Mu. A detail: the allegations of apartheid could be rewritten to a disambiguation page pointing to Segregation in X, Y, Z,...--Victor falk 19:22, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

• Rename and rewrite. I can only echo what Duja and Targeman have said, and I have to say that the creators of this article plainly know little and understand less about French social issues. I can't think of anyone in French politics or the media who uses the comparison. The issues of racism and social exclusion have a very high profile in French politics, so it's not exactly a hidden subject. This article seems to me to be a fairly desperate attempt to cobble together a number of random quotes to create a narrative that nobody with any familiarity with French politics would recognise. It's practically a case study in POV forking, synthesis and undue weight. Duja's suggestion of a way forward is very sensible (I would propose Social exclusion in France as an alternative title). On a personal note, I wish people here would stop misusing the term "apartheid" for POV reasons - it cheapens and degrades the memory of that inquitous system, much as it's insensitive and inappropriate to use "holocaust" as a generic term to refer to any act of mass killing or depopulation. -- ChrisO 19:24, 18 July 2007 (UTC)