Talk:Islamophobia

Archives
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10

Opinions of various people

As it was reasonably pointed out to me by User:Jayjg in Talk:Goy, encyclopedic articles must be based on writings of experts in the corresponding domain of expertise, not just by any important or respectable people. The Islamophobia article increasingly becomes as collection of opinions. I am not judging whether this is good or bad, but I would like to carefully consider the current and future text bearing in mind this important principle.

In particular, I would like to object the quotation of a Piers Benn in Islamophobia#Islamophobia-phobia section. He is a recognized expert mainly in medical ethics. Of course as a philosopher, he chooses to speak on multitudes of other high issues, but I question that his very occasional incursion into Islam-related subjects is encyclopedic enough. What is more, from his article I strongly suspect that he is quite ignorant in Islam (e.g. he writes "Islamic nations have barely been secularised", which (not going into detail here) is both historically wrong, lopsided, stereotyped, and discriminative statement.). Therefore may I suggest to delete it. Mukadderat 18:01, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree see my comments regarding Oliver Kamm above, writing occasional editorials in a newspaper doesn't make you an expert Bleh999 18:44, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Since Islamophobia is not an academic subject but a controversial political term, the notion of experts is moot here. This is an area of public debate rather than scholarship. Thus, notability, not expertise (in a non-existent field), is the only criterion for inclusion. Beit Or 18:48, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Please allow me to disagree. Politics is subject to science, called political science. Public debate is a subject of anotther science, sociology. We are writing an encyclopedic article, not a digest of public views. A sociologist, a politologist, or other expert has to decide which opinions are mainstream tendencies and which opinions are episodic fringe. We are not going to quote Christina Aguilera of Madonna here, do we? Despite the fact they are authority and even object of worship by many, with all due respect, they have no say in encyclopedia. In any topic the issue of undue weight is serious. If we not follow it, one may easily bury an opinion of a single world-reputable expert under thousands newspaper publications of occasional people. Mukadderat 18:57, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I am puzzled by your comment. What exactly do you suggest to leave in this article if only sociologists and political scientists are allowed to speak? Beit Or 19:21, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

What's puzzling? I am against easily stretchable academic standards. Everyone is entitled to speak on any topic, but within their area of expertise. A reporter may report the cases of "alleged islamophobia". An influential politician may be quoted in their use/abuse of the term. A psychiatrist may attest that there is no such thing as "clinical Islamophibia". A historian may say that the term "Islamophobia" is a 20th century invention, but the thing that is today defined as Islamophobia has already been discussed by Sulayman Pasha in 1712. And so on. Each speaks their wisdom in their domain. But to read in encyclopedia an average lector from Medical college(!) (Piers Benn) teching us that "Islamophobia-phobia can undermine critical scrutiny of Islam" is ridiculous. If a researcher may be frightened by "islamophobia", then his "critical scrutiny" has no value anyway, since he has no solid moral values to hold on in his research, and for this reason his research cannot be reliable (since we don't know what else he is afraid of). So this musing of this Benn is just a nonnotable feat of Islamophobia-phobia-phobia (sic). Mukadderat 05:15, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

At least only experts should have the right to define 'islamophobia' as a controversial term, otherwise that it is a controversial term cannot be reliably presented as a fact. That does not mean that other opinions should be removed from the article, but at the moment they are being used as references for the fact that it is a controversial term. Anyone writing from a blog qualifies as a reliable source by this standard. Bleh999 20:35, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

"Anyone writing from a blog" - are you ironic or literal here? The term "controversial" does not mean that a bunch of ignoramuses don't know what the term in question means. My daughter doesn't understand maths. But this does not make maths "controversial. A controversy of encyclopedic level, i.e.,the one worth reporting is the one in encyclopedia are core disagreements by reputable or influential people or by large masses of people as reported by experts in opinions of masses. An anyone blogger is hardly a representative for encyclopedia; let him be happy with Hyde Park of blogosphere. Mukadderat 05:24, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Header

I'm going to have to agree to what SlimVirgin wrote a few days ago: I'm not working on this article with so many poor writers with prejudiced viewpoints constantly screwing up the header. Here's a couple of ideas for everybody: 1. When you're writing an encyclopedia article on a term defined in the OED don't make up your own definition. 2. Don't let people who are prejudiced write an article on prejudice. This is hard for some to grasp on this page, as they basically write: "Sure, there is prejudice against Muslims. But isn't it justified, considering that Islam is a vile religion?" This is ridiculous. My favorites:

Matt 57: "So for me, no, I don't have prejudice against Islam. I know many facts about it and I made my judgement based on those facts, for example, just one of them being the 800 men on Banu Qurayza who were massacared on the orders on Muhammad."

Gee, Matt. It doesn't SOUND like you're prejudiced against Islam.

Limboot: (completely unintelligable writing). Wordsaladman is gone. RIP.

ProtectWomen: "...these people are victims of a terrible ideology that must be exposed for what it is."

Karl Meier: "CAIR is an extremist organization...the United Nations is often dominated by Islamic memberstates...the concept of islamophobia AND the way it is being used is controversial..." and other associated statements that reliably boil down to Islam is Bad and Criticism of Islam is Good.

Guys, I'm a white Roman Catholic guy who has no great love of Islam but some editors on this page need to take a step back and get some perspective on themselves before they contribute to an encyclopedic page about an Islam-related subject. MarkB2 05:30, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

While I agree with most of your text, I would like to notice that OED is a dictionary, which may be quoted, as expert in English language, but not an ultimate authority in the topic. If only we could write that those who call criticism of Islam Islamophobia simply don't know English language. The problem that some of them do know English much better than average wikipedians. Mukadderat 05:46, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

We do not care what race or religion you are. We also do not care what you or anyone else thinks of islam. It is completely irrelevant to this article and to the writing of this encyclopedia. I advise you not to make personal attacks against other editors, as you just did against many. Everyone has a bias, and last I checked wikipedia policies, holding a particular bias was not a reason for someone to be blocked from editing. Articles should be NPOV, but expecting editors to be is unrealistic and ridiculous. Why not ban muslims from editing islam articles then? Obviously they are bias to be pro-islam. Or why not ban Christians from editing Christianity articles, or liberals from editing democratic articles, etc. It is just ridiculous and stupid, and if we did that, we probably wouldn't have any articles on wikipedia, since most people edit what interests them, and most people have a bias on that topic.

It does not matter whether we think Islamophobia exists or not. We can argue over that forever, and that is just further evidence that it is controversial. Islamophobia is controversial because 1. there is doubt as to if islamophobia exists, and 2. there is dispute over what is islamophobia and what is not. If islamophobia does exist, it is no secret that the term is drastically overused, so it still is controversial. Very few of the cases where the term has been used, the term has been used appropriately in my opinion. The vast majority of the time it is just used to bully critics of islam, and dismiss what they say as a form of prejudice (eg. Robert Spencer, Daniel Pipes, etc.). Virtually anything that might make Islam or muslims look bad has been labeled "islamophobic" (eg. Muhammad Cartoons, Pope comments, debate over burka, etc.). These things are not prejudices; they are simply opinions held by some that may be negative of islam, and are often provoked by muslims. That is why Islamophobia is controversial.--sefringle^Talk 01:46, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Please notice that these were not personal attacks against editors: these were attacks against expressed opinions. The only text that may be qualified as pesonal attack is the phrase "poor editors". Even its continuation "with prejudiced viewpoints" is a legit comment, since it is supplied with examples of "prejudiced viewpoints" with explanations. Please remember criticizing ideas and viewpoints must be clearly separated from criticizing editor's personal traits. The two are confused in wikipedia only too often. `'юзырь:mikka 02:09, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but saying some people are prejudice against Islam is making a personal attack.--sefringle^Talk 02:30, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Yawn. WP:RFC/USER is thataway. (Though the bit about Limboot was amusing). Can we get back to the article now? - Merzbow 02:19, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

And your suggestion about its improvement is...? `'юзырь:mikka 02:21, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

MarkB2, no one is making up their own definations here. What issue do you have with the current header? --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 02:26, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

His issue is he doesn't want "controversial" in the header.--sefringle^Talk 02:29, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Sefringle! MarkB2, the use and defination of Islamophobia is not agreed upon by the various sources, hence controversial. If you disagree with those people, it doesnt mean you have to assert 100% that Islamophobia is a genuine term. The word controversial lays out the facts - its not agreed upon by everyone (that doesnt and cannot include us). Look at this way: If some people said that AppleDoo means the color Blue and others disagree, then this is a controversial term. You cant start out an article on AppleDoo by saying that it means Blue. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 02:39, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

"If some people said that AppleDoo means the color Blue and others disagree, then this is a controversial term." does any source assert that Islamophobia is isn't defined as discrimination/prejudice against Islam/Muslims? if the critics do, then they are criticising a different definition, and not the one established by (real) academics. ITAQALLAH 18:02, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I think it is time to take this issue to mediation.--Sefringle^Talk 22:48, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Mukadderat: I have a degree in English. I've done graduate work in English. If there is an ultimate authority on the English language, it is the OED.

Matt 57: Of all of the definitions of "Islamophobia" I've seen, all of them nearly identicle, none hedge the definition of it twice by inserting "controversial" and "what its proponents see" into a definition that is typically about three words: "prejudice against Muslims." Besides, the header definition as is makes no sense. "What its proponents see?" So the proponents of Islamophobia are the ones criticizing others for having it?

Islamophobia is prejudice against Muslims. Period. Critics who say the term is misused shouldn't have space in the header any more than critics of the use of the term Antisemitism or Racism have space in the header of those articles.

Sefringle: I should be careful about personal attacks, of course. But when people are behaving badly they need a finger in their chest, rhetorically speaking. As far as your convictions that Islamophobia is "drastically overused," I beg to differ. Anyone pointing to an example of bigotry is going to be making a point that is controversial: what is or is not prejudice is usually a debatable point. But when you stick "controversial" into the definition, and then mention what the opponents of the "concept" think right after the definition, and then spend 40% of the header describing the arguments of people who think the term has virtually no legitimacy you give the impression that the entire concept of anti-Muslim prejudice is debatable: which, unfortunately, is what it appears you WANT to do.

Oh, yes, yes, of course, you say, anti-Muslim prejudice exists...somewhere...theoretically speaking...but our culture is so FLOODED with false examples of Islamophobia we should REALLY REALLY emphasize that the term is frequently abused. The article header as it is reflects your views of the frequency and the use of "Islamophobia." That is why it sucks. MarkB2 00:16, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Not all prejudices are as overlabeled as islamophobia is. There is little doubt as to what is antisemitism and what is not (except for New antisemitism) Same thing with racism. But criticism of Judaism is not labeled as antisemitism. However cirticism of Islam is almost always labeled as islamophobia.--Sefringle^Talk 03:43, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

You would have to prove that to me. How often is "almost always?" 99%? 75%? I haven't heard any objective evidence that Islamophopbia is overlabeled, just a bunch of opinions from notable and no so notable people. On the other hand, I'm not sure it's not overlabeled either, just some other opinions. there really doesn't seem to be a consensus but it does seem to me that the critics are in the minority. As far as Judaism is concerned, I'm not sure that criticism of Judaism isn't labeled Antisemitism. Certainly criticism of Israel is frequently labeled antisemitism. Also, criticism of Affirmative action is often labelled as Racism, whether it is or not. Anyway, what is the difference between Antisemitism or Islamophobia and legitimate criticism of either religion? It seems as if that these issues are still disputed. It's also imporetant to consider who is doing the labeling. I'm sure there's someone out there will to label any criticism as predjudice.Umer Al-Amerikee 17:04, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

FWIW, as an outsider that is also dealing with a seperate controvertial issue (Atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki), and suggested solutions to other controvertial pages (Barney Frank), I do not see the need for "alleged" or other hedging in the title or the header. The page of Antisemitism does not have "alleged" in it's title, nor in most of its incidents. I think the "alleged" should move to the issues that have not been yet proven, or that are one-sided attacks, but real instances of antimuslim (or antisemitic) behavior do not get an alleged tag. Yes, some folks construe any act against them as an attack on their group, and some of the examples (the French law to reduce ALL religious symbols, the Flying Imams) should get the alleged tag, but the whole section should not be tarred with the "alleged" label. IMO, of course. And as for overuse of a negative tag, "homophobic" got overused during the gay marriage discussion, and yes, islamophobic is being overused in the media today. When Iran hosted a Holocaust Denial party, and accused critics of being Islamophobic in response, the irony was so thick I had to wipe my TV screen afterwards. But, put the alleged on the incidents that are alleged, not on the whole section, and put the hedging on the criticism section, and not in the title paragraph. CodeCarpenter 20:46, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

A notable Iranian reaction to be added

... to Alleged_acts_of_Islamophobia, this shoudn't be controversial:

After Salman Rushdie was awarded a [[knighthood]] in the [[Queen's Birthday Honours]] in June 2007, the [[Iran]]ian [[Foreign Ministry]] qualified the honoring of "a hated [[apostate]]" as Islamophobic.<ref>{{cite web | url = http://www2.irna.com/en/news/view/line-203/0706177335144730.htm | title = British knighthood for Rushdie, clear sign of Islamophobia | accessdate = 2007-06-17 | publisher = Iranian Foreign Ministry / [[IRNA]] }}</ref>

--tickle me 20:36, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

That is definently proof of the controversy reguarding the term.--Sefringle^Talk 23:27, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

To add this issue shouldn't be controversial, I didn't mean the term itself. --tickle me 02:55, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I support its addition--Sefringle^Talk 19:50, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Mediation

This header issue has gone unresolved long enough. If we are ever going to get the page unprotected without edit warring, I think we need to take it to mediation. --Sefringle^Talk 03:38, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I think mediation might be a good idea although I'm not familiar with it in the Wikipedia context. However, since many of the editors to this page don't seem to want to discuss the page outside their edit summaries, I'm not sure it will work.Umer Al-Amerikee 19:14, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

OK, I'll put in the request for mediation. I'm not completely sure who all the involved parties are, so if I forget to add you, add yourself.--Sefringle^Talk 19:52, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

The mediation link is here.--Sefringle^Talk 23:42, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

German Wikipedia version of this article

A google translation of the German Wikipedia version of this article is here and not suprisingly conforms to a neutral point of view. Addhoc 22:24, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Also mention that the lead is entirely OR as its not sourced. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 23:08, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

The German language version of Wikipedia has separate articles for both Islamophobia and anti-Islamic sentiment. I believe the English version should have one as well. The current organization of the Islamophobia article on Wikipedia brings into question the notion of the very existence of the possibility of discrimination against people who are Islamic, and that is clearly an absurd notion for an encyclopedia to present. Padishah5000 00:05, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Like I said, they're not a good example to follow in this case. If they're allowing blatant OR to sit in the Islamophobia article like that, it looks like no one cares whats happening on their article, so please, dont bring up the German article for any example to follow. --Matt57^{(talk•contribs)} 12:36, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Okay, then what of a second article of anti-Islamic sentiment? After all, Islamophobia certainly is a controversial term, but prejudice, bigotry, defamation and hate crimes against those of Islamic backgrounds, and those seen as being Muslim, certainly is not. Only very extreme ideologues with hate agendas that are anti-Islamic would argue that the very existence and possibility of prejudice and discrimination against someone perceived as being Muslim, does not exist. Padishah5000 19:19, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Islamophobia is just a word to describe the idea. It could have been called anything; the meaning is still the same, and it is just as controversial. Please calm down and stop suggesting that people are prejudice against Islam or are extremists; such accusations are personal attacks, and comments with these accusations will be removed from now on per WP:NPA#Removal of text.--Sefringle^Talk 19:32, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

So your view is that it is impossible for discrimination and prejudice to exist towards people viewed as being from "Islamic" backgrounds? If need be, I would be more than happy to include hate crime statistics from the U.S and Europe that would quickly clear up the matter. After all, this is the article about just such subject matter. Padishah5000

I didn't say that. Don't put words in my mouth. Please re-read what I wrote and respond to that.--Sefringle^Talk 20:44, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

And its NOT absurd to suggest that Islamophobia doesnt exist or is not a valid term. When RS have said so it must be reported and thus made clear that its a controversial term. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 12:38, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

To suggest that prejudice and discrimination against people of Islamic backgrounds and origins does not exist in the western world is only the view held by extreme bigots and racists with related hate agendas. It is one thing to argue over a certain terminology and its usage, such as "Islamophobia", but another thing to suggest that discrimination against a highly visible minority group does not and cannot exist. Anti-Islamic views and sentiments are very real, and so is the results of those views, such as hate crimes and employment discrimination. Padishah5000 19:19, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Please refraim from calling certian views extremist and racist. Such allegations are personal attacks agains't all who might have that view.--Sefringle^Talk 20:44, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Certain views are extremist and racist, and do not belong in an encyclopedia such as this. I will continue to point out such extremist views when I seem them. Padishah5000 19:45, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Such comments can easily be removed, and if you continue to post comments that are personal attacks, I will report you to WP:AN/I.--Sefringle^Talk 04:10, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

It appears to me as though you are trying to THREATEN me to stifle my input into this article. Please stop. Padishah5000 21:04, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Padishah5000, your comment illustrates precisely why islamophobia is a controversial term. It links "prejudice and discrimination against people of Islamic backgrounds" with "Anti-Islamic views". It is quite possible to be strongly opposed to Islam as an idea with genuine commitment against both discrimination and to hostility towards people who hold that belief.Dejvid 16:10, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but then does that not go far beyond the purpose of an encyclopedic article? Does that not then justify a separate article on "Anti-Islamic Sentiment"? After all, there is very real discrimination and hatred towards those who are viewed as coming from Islamic backgrounds in the west, and many have suffered for as a result. I should know. That element of the article is not open to debate. Seeking the opinion of the likes of Robert Spencer on the reality of discrimination against immigrants and people of culturally Islamic backgrounds is akin to asking David Duke if he feels that discrimination against people who are of Jewish, Catholic, Mexican, or African-American backgrounds is a reality. Yes, the term "Islamophobe" may be used to silence criticism and opposition by some in the political arena, but that is true of all "phobias" and "antis" one can think of. The fact that the centerpiece of the article is to question the very existence of the possibility that discrimination and prejudicial thought exists against those perceived as Muslim is a travesty, to say the least. Padishah5000 19:45, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

There is undoubtedly discrimination against Muslims. The problem is in choosing a term which implies that there is an automatic link between prejudice against Muslims and opposition to Islam as an idea. There is also a problem with a term that labels opposition to Islam as by definition irrational. Compare Anti-communism with Communism-phobia. Would not such a term be, in itself, controversial?Dejvid 20:48, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

You make a very valid point, and I certainly I understand your comparison between "Islamophobia" with "Communism-phobia", at least to a degree. (I would argue that there is a cultural and racial element to certain forms of anti-Islamic sentiment, and that there is a large difference between Islam the religion and religious doctrine, as opposed to Islamic cultures as a whole, but that is another subject matter). The question then is, should there be a separate article from "Islamophobia the political term", as opposed to anti-Islamic sentiment that deals with discrimination against those perceived to be of Islamic backgrounds, such as an article titled "Anti-Islam". I very much would like your input on this matter, as you seem to be a rational observer. Padishah5000 22:22, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

There is already the page Persecution of Muslims. Persecution implies that the discrimination (or worse) is motivated by hostility towards the religion which is often not the fundamental basis. An extreme example being Bosnian Muslims who converted to Orthodoxy who were then later ethnically cleansed by Serb hardliners. There are certainly some forms of hostility towards Muslims that uses opposition to Islam as a cover - eg the BNP. Anti-Islam would imply to me opposition to the idea rather than to the people who hold that view tho there is of course an overlap (eg BNP again). I agree that more pages that are more specific seems to offer the best route to a consensus.Dejvid 22:47, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, my concern is rather two-fold in this regard. Firstly, there exists comparable articles for other religious and ethno-religious groups. For example, there exists articles for both Anti-Hinduism and the Persecution of Hindus, as well as articles for both Anti-Christian prejudice and Persecution of Christians. In fact, the comparable term Christianophobia links directly to the article Anti-Christian prejudice. None of these articles presented dare make the claim that discrimination towards those groups does "not exist". Yet, for Islam, we have a situation where the term anti-Islam links to an article entitled Islamophobia, which in turn questions the very reality of the concept. Now, one can argue the very quality, purpose and meaning of the term "Islamophobia"(I personally hate the word), and how it may relate to other not used concepts, such as "Communismophobia", for example. That is entirely fair and justified, when one views Islam as purely a theological abstract, or a theologically political forces, such as the case with Islamism. It becomes problematic and very different in nature, when one recognizes the reality that Islam the religion is not necessarily them same as Islam the ethno-religious perception. In America, one is not pulled aside by homeland security because they are a "Muslim", but rather because they are perceived as "looking" to be a Muslim, i.e a person of Islamic cultural origin[1]. People are perceived as being "Islamic" regardless of the religious belief or ethnicity in America, based in many cases on how they simply look(I am an agnostic who has experienced this first hand, many times, but that is off-topic). Thus, an imagined phobia quickly transgresses into a very real prejudice, and an "anti-sentiment" of sorts. Though one can dislike communists either rationally or irrationally for idealogical reasons, I am not aware of a modern ethnic or racial element in its perception, though one could argue that there is large Antisemitic and even Russophobic elements to it. I hope this has clariffied my viewpoint. Padishah5000 21:04, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Biased lead

The article starts by saying the term is controversial, and quotes a writing by none other than the infamous Robert Spencer on that bit. I'm removing it. If every article that is considered controversial by some extremist had the same bit included in the lead, I wouldn't mind keeping it here. Until then, it goes! Lixy 10:30, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

• AGREED. Quoting Robert Spencer in a lead on the topic of Islamophobia/anti-Islamic sentiment is absurd. Padishah5000 20:18, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

So what if its Robert Spencer? Its a controversial term because reliable sources have disagreed on its meaning. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mukadderat (talk • contribs) 18:17, 11 July 2007.

I don't know. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that Spencer is an ACCUSED "Islamophobe"[2] , amongst other things. His opinion should not carry the WEIGHT of the article, I would imagine. Just maybe...Also, could you do me a favor and sign your posts? I know you probably forgot this time, but it does help alot. Thanks in advance! Padishah5000 03:58, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

So if a notable person is accused of something, that means he cannot cited in that article? Not. - Merzbow 04:07, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Nope. That is not what I said at all. I was speaking of Spencer's "WEIGHT" within the article. He holds extreme views, and should be noted as such, and not be given the lead in the article. Its that simple. Padishah5000 21:04, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Padishah, who are you to label his views as extreme? How are the other views not extreme? --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 21:55, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Oh, plenty of noted academics in fields related to the study of both Islam and the regions of the Middle East and South Asia have labeled his views as extreme, such as Carl Ernst, Juan Cole and Mark LeVine. Fields in which Robert Spencer is certainly not a noted academic of;[3][4]. His website "Jihadwatch" has been banned in many corporate and governmental settings, as well as blogging websites, as a labeled hate site[5], even in his own words[6]. I personally find his recommendation of forcing Muslim Americans to take a "special test"[7] to prove their loyalty to be rather extreme and bigoted, but that is just my humble opionion. I wonder if I would have to take that brave little test that Mr.Spencer is recommending, if he were to get his way, on account of my ancestry? I wonder if I would pass, being a veteran of the U.S Army and all. Either way, I am done with my input into this matter. If this article is to be written as a justification of discrimination and hate towards those from culturally Islamic backgrounds, simply by denying that discrimination and hate's very existence, so be it. I am sure those readers who seek such justification will gladly find it in this article, and those who do not, will be able to look beyond it's clear intents. Oh, well... Padishah5000 03:48, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

see Ad hominem. That basicly sums up their (and your) views of Spencer.--Sefringle^Talk

65.96.221.234 14:56, 14 July 2007 (UTC) If one is to automatically discredit Spencer, or anyone elses view that Islamophobia is a political tool used to silence people, then logic dictates that the criticism section be removed too. If the term is NOT controversial, then the critism page is null and void? Ironically these actions are what the critics deplore.

03:55, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

There's a mediation thing going on right now to which you will also probably have to agree on when its done. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 11:53, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

OK I know this issue is under mediation at the moment, but I think it's worth pointing out that none of the equivalent articles which deal with discrimination against other racial/religious groups (eg anti-Hinduism) that I looked at in a very quick trawl describe those terms as being "controversial" in the first few words of the lead paragraph. Nor do the articles on Anti-Americanism and New antisemitism, which perhaps are a better comparison as they are also terms which a lot of legitimate sources would claim are used as political devices to deflect valid criticism, or which don't really exist, at least according to the definition that others have put on them. In any event it's a bit simplistic to say a phrase or issue is "controversial", just because people can be found who disagree about it. On that basis pretty much everything is controversial. Ultimately its inclusion here reads to me as a bit of a POV push to hint that "it's not a real phenomenon you know, what are 'they' complaining about"; then as ever, the editors who want the word kept in spam the page with multiple references which supposedly back their point up. This is easy to do, and superficially satisfies guidelines on sources and OR, but is actually less impressive than it looks. Fine, cover the debate and the criticism but leave the judgemental adjectives out of the intro. --Nickhh 17:36, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, if you look again, critical opinions of the usage of the terms New antisemitism and Anti-Americanism are stated in the intros of those articles, so that really makes your analogy null and void.--Sefringle^Talk 01:47, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Er, no. My point is specifically - and very clearly - about the use of the word controversial in the first few words of the intro (I think I made this clear about four times in my comment). This is also the point made at the opening of this section. The other articles don't have it, this one does. Perhaps you could "look again" at what I wrote. --Nickhh 07:56, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Qouting Piers Benn

In the section above, #Opinions of various people I detailed expain why this is not qualified to be quoted with opinion on this sensitive and controversial subjest. After waiting very long time for arguments, I deleted it. Now my deletion is kept reverted without any talk in talk page. This is disrespect and not a way to resolve disagreements. I spent much time on my arguments and I expect the opponents do the same, rather than click revert. Mukadderat 21:09, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Why are you removing him? He's a Ph.D, lecturer in philosphy and is a notable person. His interests include ethics. Read his article for more information: Piers Benn. Ofcourse he's qualified to comment on Islamophobia. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 21:34, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

His interests do not include islam or politics. He is not speaking in area of his expertise. Ethics is a very broad topic but this does not mean that he may be quoted in everythig what happens in the world. BTW, I wrote an article about him myself when I was researching who is this unknown guy to be quoted about islamophobia. I despise your disrespectful way of editing and will no longer be engaged in this dispute. Mukadderat 22:19, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Its not a case of disrespect. Its a case where people are removing sourced relevant information because they dont like it. I didnt see you protest about the opinions of "Muzammil Quraishi"? He doesnt even have an article, is thus non-notable and should be removed ideally.--Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 01:11, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Not only you are twisting other people's arms, you are using Your logic is called red herring or Tu quoque. Mukadderat 17:03, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

"Islamophobia-phobia" - this is clearly a neoligsm (not heard of other phobia-phobias). Can it be shown that this is acceptable per WP:NEO and is not giving undue weight to Benn? → AA ^(talk) — 12:46, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes. The link says: "Support for article contents, including the use and meaning of neologisms, must come from reliable sources.". Its a reliable source being cited properly. Its not UNDUE weight, because its just a few lines. Its an alternate point of view. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 15:02, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Reliable sources may very well be simply irrelevant. I may put tons of garbage here from reliable sources. Benn with his occasional blurb has simply no weight here. He is not known to have any research on the issue. Millions of respectable people have respectable opinions, but they are simply this: opinions. This is encyclopedia, not collection of smart quotes. We need facts, generalizations. Mukadderat 17:03, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I'll listen to you when you remove non-notable "Muzammil Quraishi" from the article. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 17:52, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

red herring or Tu quoque. We are talking a specific case. I don't care about other parts at the moment. However if you insist, I will consider this. However unlike you, I will take time to investigate, not to trigger-jump with edits by like/dislike. Mukadderat 18:25, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

The section is clearly relevant and discusses an issue that is directly relevant to the articles topic. There are no reasons to remove it. -- Karl Meier 18:51, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Mudakerat, Ok fine, if thats the way you want to go: No one is required to do "research" in Islamophobia before being qualified to comment on it. He's a Ph.D. lecturer in philosphy, is a notable professor and teaches Ethics- thats all the qualifications you need to comment on Islamophobia. Ethics are about right and wrong and he's telling people (according to his qualified opinion) whats wrong with this term Islamophobia. I've removed Muzamil now because he's non-notable. If there anyone that needs to go its Muzamil. We dont put in non-notable people's opinions here. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 19:34, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Muzammil Quraishi not notable enough to be quoted

Correct me if I'm wrong, but: "Muzammil Quraishi" is not notable enough to be quoted so therefore he has to go. You cant put non-notable people in, thats a very basic policy otherwise I'll ask my friends Tom, Dick and Harry to write something about Islamophobia so it can be quoted here and I'm sure no one will agree with that. Please stick to policies, the violations of which are blatantly obvious in this case. If you want to put him in you're going to have to create an article on him first which has multiple non-trivial reliable 3rd party references. If you cant find those references, then he cant be mentioned in this article. The fact that he's a professor and has written a book "Muslims and Crime: A Comparative Study" means that he can comment on Islamophobia but his opinion can be included only if he's notable. In the light of WP:BK, publishing a book doesnt mean you're somebody automatically. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 00:53, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

"The fact remains that the term 'Islamophobia' has one purpose — to suppress any criticism, legitimate or not, of Islam"

I have added a shortened form from Dennis Prager's article on double standards, Why "Islamophobia" Is a Brilliant Term:

"Whoever coined the term 'Islamophobia' was quite shrewd," chimes in Dennis Prager. "Notice the intellectual sleight of hand here. … One can rightly or wrongly fear Islam, or more usually, aspects of Islam, and have absolutely no bias against all Muslims, let alone be a racist. The equation of Islamophobia with racism is particularly dishonest. Muslims come in every racial group, and Islam has nothing to do with race. Nevertheless, mainstream Western media, Islamist groups calling themselves Muslim civil liberties groups and various Western organizations repeatedly declare that Islamophobia is racism. … Even granting that there are people who fear Islam, how does that in any way correlate with racism? If fear of an ideology rendered one racist, all those who fear conservatism or liberalism should be considered racist. … However, the only religion the West permits criticism of is Christianity. People write books, give lectures and conduct seminars on the falsity of Christian claims, or on the immoral record of Christianity, and no one attacks them for racism or bigotry, let alone attacks them physically. The head of the Anti-Defamation League announces that conservative Christians are the greatest threat to America today, and no one charges him with racism or Christianophobia. The statement may be an expression of hysteria and of ignorance, but not of racism. But if one says that Islam does not appear compatible with democracy or that the Islamic treatment of women is inferior to the West's, he or she is labeled a racist Islamophobe. … The fact remains that the term 'Islamophobia' has one purpose — to suppress any criticism, legitimate or not, of Islam. And given the cowardice of the Western media, and the collusion of the left in banning any such criticism (while piling it on Christianity and Christians), it is working." Asteriks 19:27, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Very perceptive - but note that the same thing can apply to people accused of antisemitism. In that case, one need not even have mentioned the religion of Judaism or the followers thereof, one need only have criticised Israel. I'm very wary of all these articles, I don't think they serve any real purpose in the encyclopaedia. The only people who'll pay attention are those who seek to incite fear and hatred of the followers of other religions. Why encourage them? PalestineRemembered 22:03, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Have we lost it? This is Sesame Street at its basic level. Islam a phobia Islam a phobia Islamaphobia. I know I am not the only one who understands that the word by definition is FEAR OF ISLAM. Not muslims, not fear and hating. Just Fear. Certainly there is room for a straight forward definition before we get into quotes, which for all of there greatness, is nothing more than opinion by notable people. Greroja 21:23, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a dictionary, so yes there is a place for discussion of the different points of view. I agree that probably the Prager quote, while interesting, has no place in the encyclopedia article. There's a much better quote from Afshin Ellian that was cut from the article some time ago:

“ Free speech is in danger of being increasingly restricted by invoking “Islamophobia” and “racism”. And some intellectuals have already capitulated. For example, the opera Aisha was called off in Rotterdam in 2001, because the wife of the Prophet was depicted on stage. The production had to be cancelled because a number of actresses felt threatened. Recently a columnist on the national daily NRC Handelsblad, Hasna el Maroudi was forced to abandon her column because of threats of violence from the Moroccan community. What has happened to civil courage? Why do we hear nothing from the publishers, artists, media and colleagues of people who have capitulated about the consequences of this voluntary capitulation? ”

Even that quote, while very relevant, was removed. In the end saying things like "Have we lost it? This is Sesame Street at its basic level" are not at all helpful towards bringing the discussion on such a controversial issue forward. This discussion page has many people watching who deeply disagree with each other, and yet are willing to engage in civil discussion with each other. Let's keep it that way! JACOPLANE • 2007-08-1 21:35

This is an excellent quote. Who removed it? --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 01:43, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Anyone here interested in changing Arachnaphobia into racism against spiders... this is a serious question. I mean if I fear spiders, and if I promote my knowledge of my fear, I am in essence warning people of my fear (unfounded or not), and therefore am engaged in acts against the interests of spiders. Tell me this is not the arguement of the posters here. Wait I forgot to mentions the cowardice of the media, Jews, or Christian spiders... all very valid points in any post.Greroja 21:32, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Colleague, please keep in mind that we are not discussing our undertsnading of the topic, but what is published in reliable sources. Of course, your logic is very keen, but unfortunately you cannot provide any reference that discusses "racism against spiders". On the contrary, most of what is discussed here was published somewhere. You may disagree with some interpretations, but regardless, wikipedia has to report notable opinions of experts in the domain, who can summarize and judge the issue. Mukadderat 23:57, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

'controversial' again

I just read through the whole thing, mediation and all (seems movement on mediation has been stagnant for a week or so),and I have a question: how is this different from Anti-Christian discrimination or Antisemitism or Anti-Hinduism? is it the usage of the word phobia? would 'Anti-Islam discrimination' make it not controversial? then again, Christianophobia is acceptable as common? the sources listed seem to protest the use of the term to hinder criticism of fundamentalist Islam, but how does that make it more 'controversial' than antisemitism hindering criticism of fundamentalist Judaism for example? the concept of discrimination on the basis of religion has been there in some way or the other for every major religion throughout history, I dont see why Islam is different? --Shipmaster 02:07, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

The answer is simple. Do you have reliable sources that protest against Christianphobia and other phobias? I dont think so, so the case is different here. Critics have strongly spoken out against Islamophobia. Can you say the same about Christianphobia and other religious phobias? No. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 01:29, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

We certainly have reliable sources saying that the charge of antisemitism is hindering criticism os Israel: Some have argued that the charge of antisemitism is being misused as a way to silence criticism of Israel. After Jimmy Carter published his book Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid he was labelled an antisemite.

Rashid Khalidi, a Director of the Middle East Institute at Columbia University and a target of Campus Watch says:

"This noxious campaign is intended to silence such perfectly legitimate criticism, by tarring it with the brush of anti-Semitism and anti-Americanism, truly loathsome charges. They reveal the lengths that these people apparently feel impelled to go to in order to silence a true debate on campus."

References

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Liftarn (talk • contribs) 2007-08-08 (UTC)

Perceptions section

This section is terribly biased and one-sided. It present a number of cherry picked opinions of those supporting the concept, and is giving no room to those criticizing it. Biased content such as "In some societies, Islamophobia has materialized due to the portrayal of Islam and Muslims as the national "Other", where exlusion and discrimination occurs on the basis of their religion and civilization which differs with national tradition and identity. Examples include Pakistani and Algerian migrants in Britain and France respectively." has no place in a serious Encyclopedia. First, the concept itself is disputed, so the claim that anyone at all is suffering from a condition called "Islamophobia" is highly controversial, and we shouldn't endorse any views regarding that as facts. Second, classifying those seeing people supporting an ideology that divides people the way Islam in many cases do as somehow "-phobic", is a very big claim, and not something that is neutral to include without proper qualifications. After that follows a number of cherry picked opinions, that all claim that those that are seeing Muslims as "others" and who is thus "Islamophobic" are somehow racist. That is of course a even stronger claim, which is again not balanced with a number of opposing views.

Another problem with the section is how the Runnymede Trust definition is being presented. According to Itaqallah, RT has identified a number of perceptions related to Islamophobia. However to say that they have in fact identified anything is biased, and we are not here to endorse their views or perceptions. The previous version mentioned that they have published their opinions and that they "described Islamophobia as involving eight distinctive features". That was apparently not sufficient for Itaqallah. I am interested in knowing why?

The section does in general make many claims about what is "Islamophobic" without any qualifications and without giving voice to opposing views. Another strong claim that is being presented as a fact is that it is a "feature of Islamophobic discourse" to amalgamate Islam and politics. Apart from that being a biased and useless claim, I wonder if the many Muslims that are doing just that is also "Islamophobic"? -- Karl Meier 22:17, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

the section has been written using academic sources, which is something that can hardly be said about a lot of the other content which is vigorously defended in this article.

• "First, the concept itself is disputed, so the claim that anyone at all is suffering from a condition called "Islamophobia" is highly controversial" - this is not a reason for blanking reliably sourced content. i have provided two academic sources describing the perception of the "other" - can you provide a reliable source opposing this fact? if you can, then we discuss how to incorporate both opinions. all that i can see at the moment, however, is your having to remind editors that as this concept is so "highly controversial", and thus, any facts about Islamophobia - and there are plenty - must be shoehorned on the basis of this spurious pretext. Islamophobia and its trends are discussed in the most academic sources available (Oxford Uni press, Routledge), and i don't think the opposition of a number of partisan political commentators should alter the entire face of the article.

Your above comment pretty much makes your biased approach to this article clear. You dismiss the critical voices as "a number of partisan political commentators", eventhough they in fact include a number of highly notable authors, journalists, academics etc. It is true that a scholarly sources do mention the concept of Islamophobia, but that not the same as it being accepted. I am sure that we would also be to track down a number of sources that mention for example astrology. Anyway, the word is not even being included in a number of the most respected dictionaries such as the OED. -- Karl Meier 06:56, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

actually, it's the Encyclopedia of Race and Ethnic studies which attributes opposition to right-wing commentators. scholarly sources just don't "mention" Islamophobia, they treat it like any other sociological phenomena: discussing its trends and increasing prevelance, its history, underlying causes, case studies related to it, the perceptions involved, Islamophobia in work and media, and so on (all of which should be covered in the article). the sources i listed in the article are a good starting point, and there are more of the same. none of them just "mention the concept", as you put it. by the way, "Islamophobia" is in the SOED and in the OED [8][9] ITAQALLAH 14:03, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

• "classifying those seeing people supporting an ideology that divides people the way Islam in many cases do as somehow "-phobic", is a very big claim, and not something that is neutral to include without proper qualifications" - a "very big claim" - which a plethora of academic sources make. if you feel qualifications are needed (though i have seen no academic source deny anti-Muslim discrimination outright), then please employ them (as opposed to removing it).

You mean a plethora of Islamic organizations and individuals that dream about being able to declare their critics insane? Also the article doesn't just discuss anti-Muslim discrimination. It discuss what critics call a "wretched concept that confuses criticism of Islam as a religion and stigmatization of those who believe in it". -- Karl Meier 06:56, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

"You mean a plethora of Islamic organizations" - no, i'm talking about academic sources. Islamophobia is a well accepted concept in academia, who discuss it at good length. all sources used discuss "Islamophobia", not just "anti-Muslim discrimination" (although they are virtually the same). critics such as Salman Rushdie (who you quote), while having a space in this article, are not on par with real scholarly sources. ITAQALLAH 14:03, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

• "After that follows a number of cherry picked opinions, that all claim that those that are seeing Muslims as "others" and who is thus "Islamophobic" are somehow racist. That is of course a even stronger claim, which is again not balanced with a number of opposing views" - as said previously, if i have not faithfully represented scholarly opinion on the topic of perceptions associated with Islamophobia, which is a topic virtually untouched in the article, then please balance it with equally reputed sources. until then, please don't make unsubstantiated accusations of cherry-picking. additionally, there are plenty of reliable sources which describe a relationship between Islamophobia and racism. "balance" does not mean for the article to equate reliable sources with political commentators of a known bias; as i have said previously, if you see opposition of this point in a scholarly source, please do provide it.

It is not up to me to make your contributions neutral. If you want to add something, it is up to you to make it neutral if you want it to stick. I am talking about the tone, about not being one-sided and about faithfully presenting the whole debate, not just presenting your cherry picked sources and opinions. -- Karl Meier 06:56, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

the material is neutral and academically verifiable. again, you are arguing on the basis that there are academic views about perceptions involved in Islamophobia that have not been mentioned. please substantiate this basis first. representing the "whole debate" does not mean to whitewash facts with compromising language ("alleged") or to equate real scholarly discussion (which this article should be based on) with the protest of critics at every turn. ITAQALLAH 14:03, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

• "Another problem with the section is how the Runnymede Trust definition is being presented. According to Itaqallah, RT has identified a number of perceptions related to Islamophobia. However to say that they have in fact identified anything is biased, and we are not here to endorse their views or perceptions. The previous version mentioned that they have published their opinions and that they "described Islamophobia as involving eight distinctive features"." - so why didn't you just replace "identified" with "described" - Islamophobia is a matter well accepted in scholarly sources, so it doesn't matter either way.

What I wanted to was not that I can edit the article. What I wanted to know was why did you do it in the first place? Also, it is just one example of how your extremely biased editing has turned the article into a POV essay that present a number of controversial opinions as facts. -- Karl Meier 06:56, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

that they are "controversial opinions" is your personal original research. to depict the issue as a topic of fierce academic dispute requires proof from academic sources. the only academic i know who even remotely questions the concept is Halliday (who says "anti-Muslimism" is a better term than Islamophobia, and this has been discussed and responded to by other academics). it seems that "biased", to you, means to write upon the presumption that Islamophobia exists. unfortunately, you're going to have a lot of problems with academic sources if you argue on that basis. ITAQALLAH 14:03, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

• "The section does in general make many claims about what is "Islamophobic" without any qualifications..." - i have provided a number of qualifications. "... and without giving voice to opposing views." please review the article again, we have a massive section filled with nice large quotes from every critic saying anything remotely negative about Islamophobia.

Neutrality doesn't just apply to one section. NPOV apply to the whole article. -- Karl Meier 06:56, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

there is no evidence that the perceptions mentioned are particularly controversial in academic circles. NPOV doesn't mean equating scholars with non-scholars, or to write with unauthoritative language on an article falsely depicted as controversial, or to removed well sourced academic opinion. ITAQALLAH 14:03, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

• "Another strong claim that is being presented as a fact is that it is a "feature of Islamophobic discourse" to amalgamate Islam and politics." - again, a "strong claim" - cited to a strong source. the bracketed examples as provided in the article and source demonstrate exactly what is meant when it discusses an 'amalgamation' in Islamophobic discourse. ITAQALLAH 22:59, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

That you believe that you have a good source, doesn't mean that you should be presenting the opinions of it as facts. Even well-sourced information can be arranged and presented in a way that is against everything that policies such as NPOV and NOR stands for. -- Karl Meier 06:56, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

i have provided attribution where relevant, and the views are present in multiple academic sources. could you explain in what way NOR is pertinent here? ITAQALLAH 14:03, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

proposed merge

Persecution of Muslims is a similar topic to Islamophobia, so I am proposing a merger.--Sefringle^Talk 03:39, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

the article Islamophobia is about the neologism formed by Runnymede and the sociological studies associated with Runnymede's characterisation. the article Persecution of Muslims is about the persecution of Muslims and its history. i think the two topics are distinct enough to merit seperate articles (see, for example, Christianophobia and Persecution of Christians). there are also almost certainly no sources specifically applying the term established by Runnymede in '97 to every specific instance of persecution in history; thus to appendage the label of Islamophobia to all of these instances would be original research. these reasons, combined with the fact that the persecution article is actually quite big, make a merge unlikely and inadvisable. ITAQALLAH 03:59, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

First, The Christianophobia article doesn't exist. It is titled "Anti-Christian discrimination". Secondly, the term Antisemitism was coined in 1860, but antisemitism certianly existed long before 1860. That article describes the history of persecution of Jews long before 1860. If islamophobia is a legitimate topic, it should be timeless; any form of prejudice against muslims from any time period, past, present, or future, could be termed as Islamophobia, and it wouldn't necessarily be origional research. It should also be pointed out that much of the Persecution of Muslims article is actually origional research, and the removial of such material may make the article small enough to warrent a merge.--Sefringle^Talk 04:19, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

There is also no artice on "anti-Islamic sentiment". Why? Atari400 00:01, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Christianophobia is spefically discussed in the article, and mentioned in bold in the opening sentence. "If islamophobia is a legitimate topic, it should be timeless" - i don't agree with that premise (i'm assuming you mean "notable topic", not "legitimate topic"), and it's not something i see in our notability guidelines. "Antisemitism was coined in 1860, but antisemitism certianly existed long before 1860." - yes, but the point is that academic scholarship, during over a hundred years since the coinage, has applied the term antisemitism to various instances in history even before 1860; and thus the application of the coinage is verifiable by reliable sources. the point, as explained above, is that a reliable source must make the specific attribution of Islamophobia, else it's WP:SYNTH and WP:OR. for example: to suggest that the Meccan persecution saga was an example of Islamophobia (as defined by the Runnymede trust) would be an incredible anachronism and highly amusing, but not something academically verifiable nor appropriate in an encyclopedia. the two topics are notable enough in their own right to merit seperate articles. ITAQALLAH 04:40, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

No, I meant legitimate topic, not notable topic. That wasn't a mistake. The two topics really aren't notable enough to merit seperation. The persecution of muslims has many of the same problems the persecution by muslims has. I figure it is better to merge and weed out the questionable material. Ultimately this comes down to whether persecution is discrimination. If it is, the topics are the same. If it isn't they are not. Islamophobia is just a name for a concept.--Sefringle^Talk 04:46, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Disagree with merge. This article is not about the historical persecution but about the neoligism and it's uses as verified by RS's. To extend the use of it where it is not clearly linked by sources is synthesis and WP:OR. Also, not sure if you're suggesting this article fails WP:N which would be incorrect as evidenced by the three AfDs which resulted in "keep". → AA ^(talk) — 08:09, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with the merge as well. Not every case of Islamophobia is as well a case of persecution. And not every persecution incident is rooted by Islamophobia. --Raphael1 09:59, 17 August 2007 (UTC)