Talk:Ancient Hawaii

I do not have a great deal of knowledge about this topic, but it seems to me that Polynesian triangle deserves an article in its own right, rather than just being a redirect to ancient Hawaii. At the very least, it could repeat the material here, which would be of interest to, say, somebody who came to it from New Zealand. - DavidWBrooks 18:14, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Per your request, I created a separate Polynesian Triangle article. Feel free to add to it from your perspective as a New Zelander. Gerald Farinas 20:11, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Re the settling of Hawaii

Archaeological studies (Kirch) have pushed back the estimated settlement of Hawaii to no later than 400 A.D., and perhaps earlier. Pronounciations of common Maori words indicate that the early settlers originated in the southern islands of the Marquesas and that later settlers came from either Tahiti or the northern group of the Marquesas, but most likely from both. Voyaging between Polynesian islands was quite common until about the 13th century.

Herb Kane reference

I just looked at the Herb Kane reference and it is not academic quality. I was thinking I would just delete it, as misleading readers, and then wondered if it might not have a certain value as evidencing "current Hawaiian beliefs about ancient Hawaiian history". Do other editors think it would be a good idea to add a para on "contemporary attitudes towards ancient Hawaiian history"? Or a separate article? I am sure that this would be a combustible topic, fertile in flame wars, but it might be a good idea to put it front and center instead of just tidying away the evidence. Zora 05:05, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Does academic quality mean non-commercial? Herb Kane has some pretty good credentials to go along with his assertions - his stuff checks out with Kirch's latest Road of the Winds book too (much more academic, but nothing available online for it).

I guess maybe I'm not understanding how it come across as misleading. I'm open to removal if that can be illustrated clearly. --JereKrischel 08:47, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

The two-migration theory, and belief in the actual historicity of Pa'ao, are woo-woo by current archaeo standards. Kirch would agree. Speculations re the menehune are woo-woo as well. I agree that the Kaua'i irrigation ditch is an anomaly (I looked at it the last time I was there) but I don't think we have to postulate a lost race to explain it. Zora 08:59, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Have you read Kirch's latest book, "On The Road of the Winds"? He seems to give credence to migrations from both the Marquesas and Tahiti, and he specifically notes two separate waves.

p245, On The Road Of The Winds, Kirch: "It was presumably from this Proto Marquesic sphere that Hawai'i was first settled (although Tahitic loan words in Hawaiian support the notion of a secondary population intrusion from the "Tahitic" sphere.)"

Truth be told, just about all of our archaeological knowledge regarding pre-contact Hawaii are speculations. I know Kirch was skeptical of some of the PVS's conclusions in the 80's and it was reflected in his other books, but as all good academics, he has taken in new data and modified his analysis and theories (On the Road of the Winds was published in 2000). Perhaps he's not willing to make bold statments like Kane, and doesn't 100% support the theories of two-migration, but it's clear that academically there is some support for those theories.

I agree that the assertion that Pa'ao was an actual historic figure may be stretching things a bit, since oral traditions are never passed on with 100% accuracy, but the latest archaeological evidence seems to support the possibility of a Pa'ao type figure, or figures amalgamated into one legend.

In any case, I suppose I may support putting a big fat disclaimer on the page, "WARNING: THE ARCHEAOLOGICAL EVIDENCE REGARDING ANCIENT HAWAII IS NOT COMPLETE AND THEORIES OF ORIGINS AND MIGRATIONS HAVE WAXED AND WANED AS NEW EVIDENCE IS DISCOVERED", since we really are talking about a period of history that was not well documented, no matter what theory you ascribe to personally. Or perhaps we should edit the article to reference some of the varying points of view? I'd probably put Kirch's latest work up at the top of the list for theories, with perhaps some Finney to contrast (although they've gotten closer in conclusion as more evidence has been discovered).

I'm open to suggestions on how to balance the presentation of various theories, rather than merely asserting only one. --JereKrischel 11:32, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

I'd have to look at the book to weigh the evidence of the "Tahitian loan words". Since there's still no evidence from material culture, I'm not at all sure that linguistic evidence is enough to prove a link. Since the Tahitians were one of the first groups contacted by the Europeans, they were taken on board ships as translators for other Polynesian groups. Also, the Tahitians were the first to convert to Christianity and there's some evidence that Tahitian lay preachers were actually responsible for conversions in other Polynesian groups, including Hawai'i. Since all we have is Hawaiian recorded AFTER European arrival and the Tahitians arrived at the same time, I dunno how you'd rule out the possibility of late instead of early loans.

Thanks for letting me know of the book. I'll see if I can find it at the library. Zora 11:49, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

I think your skepticism is well founded Zora, but I hope this at least puts some of the theories of two-migration in the category of academia, not tin-foil hats. What's really amazing is how much further things have come over the past 15 years - much of Kirch's early criticism of Finney's theories of regular voyaging and contact were based on an absence of evidence, which over the years has actually become available. I think it's important to note there are conflicting theories still being proposed, so I'll see if I can work in some language into the article to make it clear we're talking about a living area of science that is not settled one way or another. Aloha for your discussion here, it is greatly appreciated and I think the article will improve from it. --JereKrischel 22:58, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

As for the alleged "solid evidence" for the menehune - did anyone check Luomala (1951): "The Menehune of Polynesia and Other Mythical Little People of Oceania", Bernice P. Bishop Museum Bulletin 203? The Alekoko fishpond can probably not be considered evidence, given the mundane explanation for "overnight construction" recorded by Nordhoff (1874) "Northern California, Oregon and the Sandwich Islands", ch.V, p.80. Then, the 1820 Kaua'i census that supposedly turned up 65 genuine menehune? It all does not fit.

At any rate, I have not heard of indications of breaks or shifts in ancient Hawai'ian material culture. The archeological and paleontological evidence is rather complete, methinks - we can even go as far as to reconstruct the original ecosystem with a large degree of confidence (not that it would be that hard, it basically having been birds feeding on plants, creepycrawlies and other birds). Am I simply not up to date or is there really no such cultural break? I'm talking radiometric dating-grade evidence here. The fact that early Polynesian voyaging has been shown to have been MUCH more "professional" than believed, say, 20 years ago, and the recent theories about Rapa Nui (the "short-ears" as European/South American pirates, whalers and slavers, which fits archeological evidence much better) have made me wary. IMHO, the most likely explanation is a Polynesian expansion over essentially the entire Pacific which culminated in the second half of the 1st millennium AD, followed by a desertion of "unsustainable" outposts like Henderson and an isolation of sustainable ones like the Hawai'ian islands. Under such a scenario, there would be enough leeway for the occasional transoceanic invasion (with decidedly local impact, hence no indications in material culture, but possibly in oral tradition). Over time, the contact would have "trickled out" and the islands remained more or less isolated (apart from the occasional stay Japanese trading vessel - if we're talking mythology, let's not forget the Sword of Kaluiki ;-)).

As far as I know there is no material evidence for an all-out invasion of the islands, and the menehune sites may just as well may be the product of some ali'i gathering his subjects in one place, lining them up and making them dig for a whole day or two...

Points to consider:

• What of the oral traditions and lore is actually based on true events and what is retcon? Impact of events such as like the Kamehameha - Kalanikupule feud on the accuracy - or actual survival of O'ahu legends? Retcon by missionaries, by Kalakaua to what extent? Political significance of traditional legends for kama'āina activism during period of cultural suppression and resulting alterations?

Maluhia, Dysmorodrepanis 05:10, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Fiji reference

I removed the reference to Fiji as a major Polynesian culture. Fiji is not Polynesian - it is Melanesian. Kahuroa 21:09, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Two-migration theories

Jere, I think you've got the militant Hawaiian attitude towards the two-migration theory completely wrong. In my online dealings with those folks, they have strongly supported the two-migration theory. They believe that Pa'ao brought everything that was WRONG with Hawaiian culture, everything that the missionaries and Western visitors disliked, such as human sacrifice and authoritarianism. Before Pa'ao, Hawaiian culture was egalitarian, kind, supportive, PERFECT. This is the utopia to which we should return, not the distorted culture imposed by Pa'ao. I even argued with one woman who was sure that Pa'ao was a haole, and that therefore this proved that haoles were responsible for everything that had ever gone wrong in Hawai'i. Comments? Zora 01:08, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Zora I have no idea what type of people you have been dealing with but isolating yourself on the net doesn't constitute exposure to these, as in your belief that "militant Hawaiian attitude" (aka any Hawaiian that disputes you or tend to not be passive as you'd want them to be) display negativity towards the 2 migration theory. In fact, my own PERSONAL encounter and interaction with other kanaka 'oiwi shows the opposite. But then again, I'm not from the island where you are at where many of these kanaka don't live the traditional lifestyle. 66.215.18.34 02:52, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Interesting. I haven't had any interaction like that before, although granted, the particular subset of "militants" I've engaged with hasn't been very broad. I guess maybe the alternative view, that is to say, the two-migration theory is preferred because the real roots ("indigenous" status) can be traced back to the pre-Pa'ao people, and the interlopers post-Pa'ao (I'm assuming this is primarily a critique against the ali'i class) represent those who founded the illegal Kingdom of Hawaii, and gave it away to haoles (either by action or inaction). I suppose around any particular controversey you can have people from both sides on all sides :). Perhaps we can work in both possible POVs? I'd love to hear more takes on why it is politically charged - I certainly get the feeling that much of the scholarship in the area ends up being affected by predispositions, and certain scholars (Vinton Kirch, for example) are alternately praised and despised as they follow the evidence and change their conclusions. --JereKrischel 01:27, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, yes, that's right, criticism of Pa'ao is criticism of the ali'i class, who betrayed their people. It's interesting that a political point (we disagree with what our supposed leaders did in the past) has be be coded into mythological form. Actually, I tend to agree with the Hawaiians who feel that the ali'i messed up. When you actually look at the records from the Great Mahele, you see that the king and the chiefs got 98% of the land (if I'm remembering correctly) and the commoners got the rest. Now the land that the commoners got was in many cases what was then considered the valuable land, irrigable kalo patches, and that the ali'i had huge tracts of uplands and desert. Irrigation schemes and later, artesian wells, destroyed any semblance of fairness to the division. The ali'i then proceeded to sell off their estates to the haole merchants in order to finance lavish Western lifestyles. In John Dominis' biography he describes one sale in which a female ali'i sold off most of Central O'ahu to Castle and Cooke and then moved to England, where she could live as an aristocrat among aristocrats. If I were a Hawaiian commoner, I'd be pissed off too. Zora 02:40, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I heartily agree with you - which is I guess why I always saw the Hawaiian Revolution as merely a conflict between elites in a land that was still filled with have-nots (of all races). Anyway, not to banter about my personal politics, but if you thought it was useful, I think we might be able to add a section regarding some of the various views on the 1 or 2 migration issue, and how it is percieved politically. I wasn't aware of the perspective you mentioned, but it certainly merits inclusion in any discussion...perhaps though we're getting into the area of original research? I can really never tell where the line is drawn there, but I'll chew on it a bit and see if I can think of something to put in, if anything. Thanks again for the lesson in alternate perspectives! --JereKrischel 05:27, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I think we're getting into original research, since this is derived from Usenet, personal interactions, etc. We need published stuff -- books, articles, websites -- for verifiability. I'd look for it but I'm swamped. Zora 05:58, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Anon's edits

I reverted some edits by an anon who apparently had strong feelings about the old Hawaiian gods. Among other things, this editor was sure that Ku was the same thing as Kukailimoku. Well, that's arguable ... there were different aspects of Ku. Can one aspect be considered to encompass all of Ku? Or were all the Kus different gods? Issues to be debated, not given a two-second answer as Ku AKA Kukailimoku (which is not encyclopedic language). Zora 09:25, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Partial rewrite

I visited this article for the first time in a long time and I was struck by the ponderous stodgy prose. Also, some generalizations were wrong or inexact. I rewrote part of the article, which took me close to two hours, and then got too tired to continue. I have a bad habit of trying to do too much, and failing, but I hope to finish rewriting the article soon. More citations and a longer list of references are essential. This article as it stands is just a sloppy sketch of the subject. Sigh. Zora 07:03, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Great work Zora! Your edits so far are great improvements! --JereKrischel 20:47, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Ancient?

Does the "Ancient" period really last all the way down to 1810, or is this more or less the result of a Eurocentric historiography and the fact that we don't know anything/much about the islands' history prior to Cook's arrival? If it is commonly referred to as the ancient period in scholarship, that's perfectly fine. I just want to be sure. Thanks. LordAmeth 23:18, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

It's pretty much eurocentric historiography - there is no truly "ancient" history in Hawaii, since it was only populated around 800AD. The moniker "ancient" in this case is pretty much in reference to the technological level of the society when encountered by europeans. As an example, there are references to the "Ancient period" in Europe being from 50,000 BC - 500AD, during which time the islands of Hawaii were uninhabited.

That being said, it is common parlance in the scholarship of Hawaii to consider the unification of the islands by Kamehameha the great in 1810 as the demarcation between "ancient" and "kingdom" periods. --JereKrischel 06:10, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Cool. As a historian of Japan, I'm fully aware of the way in which periodization can be drastically different for different societies. Japan's "classical period" extends all the way up to 1185, and though most scholars would label 1600-1615 as the beginning of the "early modern period", there is an older view that would apply terms like "medieval" or "feudal" all the way down to 1868. Anyway, thank you for clearing that up for me. I was just curious. Cheers. LordAmeth 09:46, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Menehune Ditch

From the current article, "However, there is one puzzling artifact on the island of Kauaʻi, one that has never been satisfactorily explained. Running alongside the Waimea River is an ancient aqueduct known as the "Menehune ditch." This channel once brought water from the Waimea River to irrigate taro fields. The rocks were shaped into rectangular bricks and carefully fitted together — a method of stonework requiring immense labor, and not typical of Hawaiian rockwork. This ditch is currently believed to have been constructed before Captain Cook's first visit." There is a widely held misconception (alluded to in this article, and perpetuated in numerous publications and internet pages) that the Menehunes (or at least the ancient Hawaiians) built the ditch that currently exists. That is not the case. The ancient irrigation system was almost completely destroyed and rebuilt by sugar plantations in the early 1900's. The often photographed water tunnel was bored during that time, and the fitted stones leading up to it were also built then. Documented in "A Cultural Resource Reconnaissance of the Waimea River Flood Control Study Area, Kauai, Hawaii" by Pauline King Joerger and Charles F. Streck Jr. which records: "The area has been changed considerably since the description of Vancouver. In the 1890s a "horse road" was built "on the bank of the Pee Kauai watercourse at Kiki-a-`Ola . . . " Soon afterwards, a government road replaced the "horse road." Sugar plantation construction also changed the aqueduct. Around the turn of the century Waimea Plantation built an irrigation ditch and used a tunnel through the cliff to carry water from the inland area to the lowlands. No evidence of a wall around the cliff face remained. In 1924, more plantation improvement to ditch and road changed the area and destroyed more of the ancient Hawaiian ditch." "Ditch stones from the ancient site have also been said to have been used in and around Waimea. Menehune Ditch stones are said to have been used in the building of the Protestant Church, called the Foreign church, in the Kekaha Plantation Mill and the Waimea Ice works. Other stones were used by a Waimea stone cutter for tombstones, by one of Waimea's sheriffs for a stone wall in front of his home, and the like. Little of the old watercourse is left now; the water to irrigate the high land on the other side of the cliff from the river now flows through a tunnel bored by a sugar company. Much of the old ditch is covered by a road." To say that the Menehune Ditch has "has never been satisfactorily explained" contributes to the misconception. DitchDigger 16:11, 27 August 2007 (UTC)