Talk:Hors d'oeuvre

Opening comments

A list of popular Hors d'oeuvres can de-stubbify this stub. --Menchi 11:26, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Oh god no - not a list. Please not another stubby list. --Mothperson 00:27, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The redirects should lead to the spelling "Hors d'œuvre", as it's the correct one. If I get no objections, I'll change them that way next time. --80.139.60.178 02:13, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

there's a problem, œ can't be used in a page's title. Gentgeen 07:53, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Apparently "œ" can be used after all. The page was moved from Hors d'oeuvre to Hors d'œuvre by User:The Anome on June 28, 2005, thus eliminating the need for the {{wrongtitle}} tag.

— FREAK OF NUR_xTURE (TALK) June 29, 2005 09:18 (UTC)

Sadly, it will have to be moved back, as the ligature use is nowadays unusual. Sorry, ligature-happy prescriptionists, common usage wins in the end. -Silence 20:59, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Or it won't. I don't really care. -Silence 08:18, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Are you asserting that the ligature is unusual in (a) French, (b) British or (c) American? But what I really wanted to comment was ...

In British and American English, since this is the English Wikipedia, not the French Wikipédia. (see Merriam-Webster, American Heritage, Encarta, Cambridge, etc.) But I changed my mind, I don't really care anymore. Ligatures aren't a big deal. And at least this one has an etymological basis, like Annuit Cœptis; there are much worse offenders out there, like Pericope Adulteræ. -Silence 07:34, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

My point, about which I was really being too subtle, for which I apologize, was that UK usage really does differ from US on ligatures. All ligatures, across the board. You only cited one UK source so I'll see your Cambridge with the Oxford English Dictionary, which is subscription-only online but I assure you it has the ligature. Anyway, what I'm really curious about now is: what is the difference between Annuit Cœptis and Pericope Adulteræ? They're both Latin diphthongs, no? —Blotwell 02:51, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

• I did not pick and choose between dictionaries based on region. I simply searched for all the most immediately accessible, widely-used ones and gave their results. Finding only one dictionary out of 5 (including two UK ones) that's able to support using the ligature isn't very convincing, and Wikipedia is not a slave of the OED. Wikipedians in general tend to overuse ligatures greatly. For some unfathomable reason, some editors clearly derive a deep pleasure from interjecting as many random æs and œs into articles as they possibly can, even where it's clearly unnecessary or even incorrect, causing inconveniences to the typical reader, who will search for articles and items using "ae" and "oe" and so on; he won't go to the trouble of figuring out the alt code for those letters or searching for some to copy-paste just to read an article about appetizers or "let he who is without sin cast the first stone". Just look at how many people on Wikipedia use "Wikipædia" and how few use "Wikipaedia" and you can see how ridiculous the ligature overuse is. Where ligatures are without a doubt appropriate is where they're directly quoted from a source that uses the ligature: as can be seen on the Annuit Cœptis page, the Great Seal of the United States, where the phrase is chiefly from, uses the œ ligature. This does not in any way apply, however, to Pericope Adulteræ; this Latin phrase is a traditional medieval description of a Biblical quotation, and the "ae" is and long has been used more often than the "æ"—the only real reason æ was used was to increase writing speed and conserve space. Yet now it's somehow become some sort of bizarre status symbol, a way to look clever and be more "correct" (while ironically being less correct) by using archaic and obsolescent lettering quirks. Very strange stuff. But, as I said, I don't care much about the "Hors d'œuvre"; like almost all ligatures in common words and phrases, it'll be changed eventually, whether tomorrow or five years from now, so it doesn't make much of a difference. -Silence 03:18, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

• I just got a boner reading that comment. Preach it, brother. Njerseyguy 21:15, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
• Concur. Btw, I added a bullet to the comment above mine to assist with formatting. I hope no one has a hissy fit. Astarf 23:31, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I do not agree this should be a merger - an amuse bouche is totally different to an Hors d'oeuvre which is similar to a canape. An amuse bouche is a mini starter that is designed to complement the style of the meal - it is effectively a chef's special in miniture that everyone can enjoy. Please don't merge it with Hors d'oeuvre - it would be a crime against language to try and generalise when it comes to food! thanks.Alliekeith 11:23, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Starter

... is starter really a synonym? It seems to me that a starter is more an entrée (Commonwealth sense) than an hors d'œuvre. Or is this another example of me being prescriptivist based on French usage? —Blotwell 06:18, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

from what i know/observe is that this word is not used at all in the UK and they use starters instead. - GeckoKid

I have consulted someone who majored in Catering in a UK university, and I have been assured that both words are used, though are not nessescarily the same thing. -Tombrend

As a Brit, I would agree with Blotwell - we use both terms, and starters are entrées, hors d'œuvres are not (see below under Merger heading). In a really formal setting, you would probably hand round the hors d'œuvres with drinks before you sat down for your starter. Tobelia 17:25, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Other Languages and Cultures

I changed the "Antipasto" heading to this because it is much more conducive to future additions of hors d'œuvre equivalents around the world. -User:Bantosh 17:07, 7 June 2006

Don't you think that antipasto deserves a page of its own? Cazort 17:31, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Regional Usage

Can someone write something about regional usage? I am fairly certain that appetizer is more commonly used in America. --69.86.97.183 15:47, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

And now we get to the nub of the problem

Quite which of amuse-bouche, hors-d'oeuvre and other assorted "pre first course" delights depend greatly on where, both in the macro and micro sense. A small, focused establishment is likely to provide a single item (with matched drink) gratis - an Amuse bouche, where as a larger establishment is more likely to provide a range of items (a Hors d’œuvre) as part of a semi-fixed menu - more common in banquets or weddings.

Presuming, of course, that this is the done thing. In my current place and time, short order cooking is more the vogue and the meal is usually compressed into one or perhaps two a la carte courses. Although the shared starter plate containing a selection of pre-prepared and cooked items is both common and popular. But it is definitely not gratis.

And then there is tapas, which are, from a cook's perspective, just another form of the same thing - polemically, glorified cocktail nibbles.

Trying to merge these items requires a careful discussion of the cultural implications of the terms - and as such they are better treated as culturally seperate objects.

As usual, the region west and north of the Atlantic use the same terms completely differently to the rest of the world, just to compicate matters. Which suggests that a series of categories might be useful to link these items.

Thoglette 14:25, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Merger With Entrée

oppossed - I also agree there should not be a merger. In Australia, for example, hors d'oeuvres refers mostly to little snacks served before sitting. Entree is then the course before main course, perhaps after soup.

oppossed - I strongly recommend that the article for entrée not be merged into this article, as the significant usage difference in American English (yes, I'm aware this is originally a French word) warrants a separate article. --Astarf 23:27, 15 March 2007 (UTC) oppossed - I strongly agree. And apart from Astarf's point, I would classify hors d'oeuvres as a different thing from entrées anyway, even in the sense we use it in the UK and elsewhere. As this article makes sufficiently clear, hors d'oeuvres are appetisers which are often pre-meal finger food, whereas an entrée (in the non-US sense) is more of a sit-down starter course. Tobelia 17:20, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

oppossed - Agreed. Entrees (in the "first course" sense) are not at all the same thing as hors d'oeuvres. --Macrakis 19:09, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

oppossed - Entree has a different connotation in America as well as other countries. Although it may have at one point addressed a certain appetizer course, it no longer does. Even at that, it is a separate course, not an hors d'oeuvre.--Christopher Tanner, CCC 05:14, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

As this merger proposal has been up since May and there are five oppositions and no supports, I am going to remove the merge proposal for Entree.--Christopher Tanner, CCC 21:06, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Merger with Amuse Bouche

Opposed to this merger, two completely different concepts. The amuse bouche is a course in a meal.--Christopher Tanner, CCC 16:58, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Opposed to this merger. Amuse is a completely different animal than hors d'oeuvre. Depending on the chef, it can be served after hors d'oeuvre (and before the soup/entree), or it can be served before the hors d'oeuvre. In any event, culinarily speaking, an amuse is 1-2 bites, limited to one per person, served with an accompanying wine, and in the case of a meal which is being paid for, an amuse is complimentary. A square can be a rectangle, but a rectangle may not be a square. Hors d'oeuvre foods MAY end up following these rules (1-2 bites per item, served before the main course, even sometimes served with appropriate wine), but hors d'oeuvre dishes are in no way limited to those rules as amuses are--and notably, rarely are limited to one "serving"/bite per person, also usually paid for. An hors d'oeuvre may fall into the category of amuse according to adherance of these rules, but an amuse is never, ever, an hors d'oeuvre.207.74.178.168 23:50, 8 June 2007 (UTC)Brigitte

Oppose. As per above. Obviously it is something different. Bertilvidet 12:13, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Opposed This is the worst merger suggestion that I've ever read on here. The concept is different than hors 'd oeuvre, although they are often confused. Merging them would just propagate ignorance on this topic.

Both Mergers

A Suggestion: create an article Meal Courses. Have it broken down into each serving with various differences between localized variations under the heading. Just a weird suggestion. Jerem43 05:49, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

I like this idea, especially as appetizers should be represented and is currently redirected to this article (Hors d’œuvre). I am truly against these mergers as they are represented here in this current fasion.--Christopher Tanner, CCC 05:57, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Otherwise count me as Opposed to the merger: while they are related, each item is independent of the other like siblings.

Jerem43 22:08, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Meze?

Isn't Meze more like the english interpretation of Tapas than Hors d'œuvre? To this extent I'd say the article needs to be changed to reflect the fact that Meze is related, but not really "the equivalent of" Hors d'œuvre. 82.32.73.92 17:36, 12 October 2007 (UTC)