Talk:Alevism

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Name

Please dont write that alevism is a part of shia muslims. That is totally wrong. The only thing we have incommen with shia, is the love for Ali and "the 12 imams". Thats like saying jews and christians have the same religion just because both share jesus.Im from Turkey, people around us are muslims. And the truth is, we have nothing similar to them in the religious area. Our religion "prairs" (nefes) are in turkish and not in arabic. We do not have mosques and our woman do not cover theire faces. We do not have ramadan. Because almost everyone around us is muslims it has been inevitable do resist islamic influence. But nothing major. We have oure own rituals (sema), and we beleive that there is no god almighty or allah. We beleive in the good of people, and that the god himself and the holy spirit is in the human being. // Mehmet

Hi, I am writing from Ankara-Turkey. "to the Levite tribe of Ancient Israel..."

Actually the word "Alevi" is the same thing with Arabic "Alawi". For Islamic History, it is an Arabic word generally meaning Supporter of Ali. In Turkish language it is written as "Alevi", and has no connection with the Levites of Israel. Thanks, —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.142.172.254 (talk • contribs) 11:22, July 29, 2004 (UTC)

According to the article on Alawi "The Alevis of Turkey are different from Syria’s Alawites, though they share the same name. Turkey’s Alevis are descended from the Kizilbash, a Sufi-Shi`a offshoot with connections to early Safavid Iran, whereas, Alawites are Nusayris."

There seems to be a similarity in certain beliefs between the two, however, there are many subtle (but important) differences. For example, Alawites recognise Ali as the incarnation of the divine diety. This is not the case for Alevis. Pinar 05:21, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Alevi

I am new in editing; I forgot to write my name. My name is Recep Yesiloglu, I am from Antakya (Turkey) and living in Ankara.

Merhaba ve hosgeldiniz Recep - just write four tildes (~~~~} and your name and datestamp will appear automatically. Gerry Lynch 14:43, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

"The name is possibly connected to the Levite tribe of Ancient Israel." This is an extremely interesting theory. Could any one elaborate on this. What is the evidence apart from the similatity in the names which does not seem to work for Turkish speakers who understand the root word Ali and its derivative Alevi. There are a few theories linking the Khazar Turks to the European Jews as Khazars voluntarily became a jewish state. Such theories have many political friends and enemies and it would be good to see any facts or evidence supporting Alevi-Levite connection. SunnyFrog 27/10/2004

Alevi in Iran

Hi I am originally from South Azerbaijan, and thought to contribute to this discussion, as to my surprise there is no refrence to Alevi communities in South Azerbaican.

Alevi communities within Iran spread through out the north western and western region of the country. These large communities are more concentrated in small towns or villages of South Azerbaijan (Iranian Azerbaijan) and Kurdistan province of Iran.

The term Alevi was used till early twenty century for these communities and by themselves but at the present they are called with various names such as Ali Allahi, Ahl i Hag or Goran. The preferred name by the community is Ahl i Hag (literally meaning People of The Truth, or People of The Justice).

Ethnically they are either Azerbaijani Turks or Kurds. Azerbaijani of Ilkhichi (Ilxıçı), near Sahand mountain is mainly populated by Alevi, there also large vilages around , the Miandab (Miandoab) and Urmia within the western side of the Azerbaijan province.

The annual gatherings around the Shand (Sultan Dagi) in Azerbaijan province is one of the open rituals. At the peak of Sultan Dagi there is a small seasonal spring, which its water are considered to be blessed, by Alevi community. At the present there is a rather small Jamkhana (Cemxana) at the eastern foots of the Sahand.

There should be a clearification here, Ahl-e-Haqq(Yarsan) is not the same as Alevism, however they are ralated. The official term might be that they are Ahl-e-Haqq(Yarsan) but it should be more clear that Alevism and Ahl-e-haqq(Yarsanism) is not the same.

Islam and Alevilik

Hi, in fact Turkish Alevis are not seeing themself as a part of islamic world. For example: The "official" language which is used rituals is Turkish while sects of Islam are using Arabic. Women and men are worshiping together this is strictly different from Islamic behaviour.

Alevilik is a form of Shamanism which is covered by islamic image.

Turks where converted islam by force, many Turkish cities razed and nomad tribes were attacked, alevilik is a culture and religion of some Turkish formerly nomad tribes which are less effected by Persians and Arabs while traveligh through west asia and asia minor becouse of dramatic climate changes in middle asia. --Utku5 16:44, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Not all Turks were converted to Islam by force. Some of them converted by political reasons just like the Seljuks (Selçuklular). Turks mostly saved their old religion by desiginig Alevi blief system. Many things in Alevi blief comes from Shamanism or Tengriism. Tengriteg 10:44, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Turkish Society and Alevilik

A view from Istanbul

The Turkish Alevi community is, as the article correctly points out, merely tolerated (at best) by the wider Sunni majority. Alevilik is generally viewed as deviant, abberant and corrupted by Shamanism, Christianity and other "alien" influences. Faced by widespread ignorance and prejudice, few Alevis in majority-Sunni areas (and more particularly those in public life or the professions) feel able to openly reveal their identity let alone promote or celebrate it. That is to Turkey's loss.

Furthermore, it cannot be emphasized enough the degree to which Turkish Alevis overwhelmingly support Turkey's European Union accession process. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.97.206.199 (talk • contribs) 19:39, October 25, 2005 (UTC)

Sivas incident

There's a mention in the main article about the Sivas incident of 1993. It has been stated that the victims were burned by Sunni locals. This is an unacceptable remark, disgracing all Sunnis of Sivas. The perpetrators were and should be identified as "Islamic Radical Fundamentalists of Sunni origin".

You are right, need to change it. Article should not be antagonistic towards Sunni majority. Alevis are integral part of Turkey, as most of them are Turks indeed. abdulnr 01:25, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Fighting MHP? who invented that, many MHP leaders and supporters are Alevi, as Alevi have succesfully changed their image into the protectors and stand-bearers of Turkish culture and identity (referring the Central Asian/Turkistan traits) this is commongly accepted as alot of their cerenomies are in the Turkish language, they have very old cultural traditions etc these today are being adopted by mainstream society and encouraged.

The part about "Sunni's of Sivas" should not be written like that, the vast majority of Sunni Muslims were disgraced, disgusted and dishonoured by these terrible terrorists hijacking sects of Islam and comitted attrocities against innocent people in its name.

Alevi are an integral part of Turkey and Turkish culture.

Alevi blief is the real and genuine Turkish culture. Shamans became "baba or dede", shaman dances became "semah" e.t.c. Very few people know that Osman Ghazi (founder of the Ottoman empire) was an Alevi Turkmen. Janissaries (yeniçeriler) were from Alevi/Bektashi blief. Tengriteg 10:46, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Music and poetry discussion

There should be a distinction made between secular Alevi music and sacred/religious cemevi music, as they represent two different styles that have had different impacts on Turkish music as a whole. Much of the music currently considered türkü (Turkic nationalist folk songs) in Turkey is Alevi secular music (the music of Alevi aşık bards), though little of the cemevi music would be considered the same. That there are strong secular and sacred music styles is unique in itself, as there isn't, for example, a huge body of secular music from other Sufi orders in Turkey (such as the Mevlevi or Sinani orders).

Second, I'm also puzzled about the inclusion of Mercan Dede - in most of his public performances stylized forms of Mevlana are depicted, but Alevi concepts have not been a prominent recurring theme in his art. Other prominent popular Turkish artists such as Cemali and Aynur Doğan have had much longer and more substantive interactions with Alevi music.

Third, regarding the 1993 hotel fire, one of the most important Alevi bağlama players in the country died in this fire - Hasret Gültekin. The wording of the "hotel fire" section, as it stands, reads very awkward, since it pits "intellectuals" against "Sunnis." Other writers above have already pointed out that much of the Sunni majority was outraged about the event as well (and of course not responsible). The blanket term "intellectuals" is misleading - some of the casualties were very important artists and musicians, as well as being intellectuals, too. In Istanbul, bağlama-saz players (Alevi and otherwise) continuously reference how brilliant Hasret was, the ways he drastically altered the way Turkey's "national" musical instrument is played, how he died too young, and so on. The loss in 1993 was a great cultural one for the country of Turkey. --oudplayer 10:45, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone have more information about the ones that was killed in the fire? I added Hasret Gültekin as one of the victims. FreddyFred 11:19, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Is Proper Name "Alevi-Bektashi?"

The article argues that the proper name for the religios system is "Alevi-Bektashi." This may not necessarily be correct. These are actually two different belief systems that have borrowed much from each other. This does not agree with the NPOV policy and the veriability policy of Wikipedia since it contains no references.

I change the article as the following: "Some argue that the Alevi belief should be recognized as part of a larger Alevi-Bektashi belief system."

Sinan Ozel 22:42, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good. Bulgarian Bektashis are about as similar to Turkish Alevis as Turkish Alevis are to the Ah le-Haqq of Iran. There is some familiarity, but quite a bit of difference. The biggest difference is in the early historical roots - the central Anatolian Alevis had a particular form of shamanism before adopting Islam (or aspects of Islam) which differs from the Bektashi in Bulgaria. --eliotbates 23:28, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Wrong!

This article includes much wrong information. Using the views of Irene Melikoff and other subjective writers is not recommended. Alevism is the true path of Allah, Muhammad and Ali. There is no such thing as Shamanistic elements in Alevism. If there was, then there was a need to change ALL articles about beliefs in wikipedia! Then there should be added, that Sunnism was a mix of Judaism, Christianity etc.! As an Alevi I will not accept this discrimination. Alevism should be described as Alevism sees itself, and not as foreigners observ it! A great part of this article is useless! Where's Shah Ismail Safawi, and his ancestor Sheikh Safi al-Din Ardabili? Where's the 12 imams, Haci Bektas?

I advice the admins of wikipedia to add a note that explains the wrong/discussable containings of this article!

Please, you are more than welcome to contribute to the article. If you are Alevi, well, even better! Wikipedia is made to be corrected by YOU! Chop up the article, re-write it, add or remove stuff. Wikipedia is here for YOU! You seem to sit on alot of information: ADD IT! If you feel something are wrong, change it! You had enought energy to read the article, go in here at the discussion page and vent youre opinion, so focus that energy and contribute......This is youre chance to do so, whereelse whould that be possible....YOU are needed! Thats all!

Update needed

Dear contributors, as a interested reader, here is my comment: this article has many interesting elements in it. However it shows that several strongly biased sentences were added/modified (in bad English too); so I would like to advise that someone takes care of amending this article, which I think has the potential to be very good.

Also, may I point out a "reputable" source of information on Alevism: the Turkish Daily News, who published a series on Alevism very recently, on Nov 12, 2006. Unfortunately, I could only read it in Google's cache, not on the newspaper's site: here is part 1: http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:_oQr1lC7IwIJ:www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php%3Fenewsid%3D57542+alevism+AND+iran&hl=fr&gl=be&ct=clnk&cd=2

To access the other parts, google for

Alevism: A faith in search of freedom "part X"

with X running from 2 to 5.

Thank you!

Improving this article

IMHO this article needs a large overhaul. It does present how Alevi view their own religion, only unsourced outside criticism ("pagans"). Other passages are in inappropriate sections (origin and ethnicity in etymology, speculations in history). Historic events and figures like Haci Bektas Veli are missing, so are sections about religious practice. Is there someone with knowledge about the subject who can improve it, otherwise I could try to put information in from the de:Aleviten article. --Hurax 14:22, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I removed incorrect material about the Bektashi Sufis in the Albanian lands.

I don't know why someone included in this article the false claims that Bektashi Sufis in the Albanian lands are part of "Alevilik" or constitute 30-40 percent of the population among Albanians. These are rather typical legends one hears among New-Age types in the West but are quite incorrect.

Albanian followers of the Bektashi Sufi order do not constitute more than 25 percent of Albanians at a very generous estimate. I have no reason to understate this because I am quite close to and sympathetic to the Bektashis in the Albanian lands, but there is no need to exaggerate things. I also work closely with Turkish and Kurdish Alevis in Germany

Albanian Bektashis and Turkish Alevis, who may also be known as Alevi-Bektashis, both honor the Sufi saint Hadji Bektash Veli, but in very different ways, and it is incorrect to suggest that Albanians are part of "Alevilik." Some Albanian Bektashis visit the tomb of Hadji Bektash in Turkey, not in mass pilgrimages as Turkish and Kurdish Alevis do. Albanian Bektashis do not generally speak Turkish and do not employ Turkish as the language of their rituals. They consider Albanian Bektashism to be a kind of Albanian national sect.

Turkish and Kurdish Alevis employ popular music of a Western kind in their pageants. Albanian Bektashis do not do this.

Stephen Suleyman Schwartz Center for Islamic Pluralism Washington/London/Cologne/Tetova, MacedoniaKarastjepan 01:35, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Questions

Hello, I am interested in Alevism, but am not an Alevi. According to what I have read, Alevis classically did not accept converts (in contrast to other forms of Islam, if the Alevis are in fact to be classified as a form of Islam), but that a number of outsiders have recently "converted" or otherwise affiliated with Alevism. Could anyone give details (or even better, contact suggestions)? For example,

• What types of people have been converting? Are they mostly former Sunni Turks?

• Which dedes or other authorities (if any) have been supervising these conversions? I suppose there must have been some intra-Alevi debate on the propriety of this...

• Am I right in assuming that converts are drawn primarily to Turkish-speaking Alevi communities rather than Kurdish-, Arabic-, or Azerbaijani-speaking ones?

• What forms and requirements are observed? For example, is conversion (to the extent that it is accepted) understood primarily as acceptance of a master/disciple relationship with a dede, or as an expression of allegiance to Shi'i Islam, or as adoption into an ethnic group?

Thank you very much! --Dawud

Spelling and tone

I agree that this article could use a lot of clean-up. Much of the tone seems highly idiosyncratic. In particular, I question why the article has generally re-spelled so many special terms (e.g. cem, ocak, Düşkünlük Meydanı) rather than leaving them in their real Turkish forms? There is no English word ojak, so I see no profit in using that spelling rather than ocak – use 'hearth' if you need an anglicization. More to the point, why does the article repeatedly try to force parallels between Alevilik and other religions (Christian trinitarianism, Sankhya Hinduism, Kabbalah) rather than explicate Alevi beliefs in their own right and on their terms? Q·L·1968 ☿ 17:13, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Here is the English Wikipedia so it should be readable for non-Turkish readers. For this reason we should use English scripts instead of Turkish scripts; e.g., there is no ş in English and c is not pronounced like j. --behmod talk 17:25, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Nonsense. I'm a non-Turkish reader. If we see a word we don't know how to read, we'll make reference to Turkish language. For languages that use the Roman alphabet, we should use the real spellings; for languages that use other alphabets, we should use a conventional transliteration or transcription. Phony respellings like ojak hinder comprehension rather than help it. (For example, if I'm an English speaker who wants to double-check the translation of ocak in my dictionary. I won't find the word if I look it up under a bogus spelling.) Best, Q·L·1968 ☿ 10:14, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Origin of the word "Cem--behmod talk 20:52, 10 July 2007 (UTC)"

Someone needs to add more information about the word "Cem"/"Jem". This particular Alevi cult is very interesting, because it is not only unique to Anatolian Alevism, but also unites rituals and names of different origins. Bsed on the information given in the respected Encyclopaedia of Islam, it should be noted that the Turkish word "Cem" has three different etymological origins:

• the Arabic word jam (جمع) which means "gathering" or "to gather"
• the Persian word jām (جام) which means "cup"
• the Persian name jam (جم) which is a shorter form of the Persian kings-name Jamshid

Because of the lack of certain sounds in Turkish and because of the Turkic vocalic harmony, all three words are pronounced "cem" and all three words are essential in understanding the Anatolian "Cem" ritual.

The first meaning of the word "cem" is "gathering", exactly as in Arabic. The "Cem" ritual has the same meaning to Alevis as mosques to traditional Muslims. The second meaning of the word is taken from the Persian words "cup" and "Jamshid". This may sound strange to people who are not familiar with Persian mythology and Persian poetry, but the theme of "Jām-e Jam" ("The cup of King Jamshid") is an improtant element of Persian Sufi poetry and mythology. According to Persian mythology and Persian Sufi traditions, the ancient/mythological Iranian king Jamshid had an enchanted cup which allowed him to communicate with the gods. Whenever he drank wine from the cup, his soul was transcended to heaven where he communicated with the Gods. This ancient Persian legend is in fact connected to the ancient Soma cult of the early Indo-Iranian tribes. After the conquest of Islam, the ancient Aryan cults vanished in Iran, but Persian poets continued to use these metaphors in their poems (for example the Persian Sufi poets Hafiz and Khayyam who use the consumption of "wine", and the use of a "divine cup" in their poems). This ancient Aryan cult is known in Persian as "Āyīn-e Jam", "The ritual of King Jamshid", and this is ultimately the origin of the Turkish expression "Cem Ayni". Just as in Persian Sufi poetry, the Anatolian Alevis drink wine out of a cup during their "Cem" rituals, and they preform the "Semah" - both rituals have their origins in the pre-Islamic cults of Persia and Mesopotamia and were in part heavily mixed with Arab-Islamic beliefs.

So, in their "Cem" ritual, the Anatolian Alevis unite not only the Islamic concept of "Jam'" ("gathering", "mosque"), but also the Persian Sufi cult known as "Āyīn-e Jam". The Persian cults were brought to Anatolia by Persian Sufi saints (known in Turkish as Horasan erleri, "the saints of Khorasan"), especially by Hajji Bektash Wali who was himself a native of Khorasan. Other important Persian Sufis were Rumi and Shams-e Tabrizi. Also important are Shah Ismail and the entire Safavid Sufi family who were also steeped in ancient Persian culture and cults. In fact, according to Turkish scholar and expert on Sufism, Dr. A. Gölpinarli, the Kizilbash are - without doubt - connected to the Persian Khurramit movement (who were spiritual descendants of a mysterious Zoroastrian secret brotherhood known as "Mazdakites") cult during the rea of Sassanid rule. The Khurramites were a mixed Shia-Zoroastrian militant group who fought the Sunni caliphate of the Abbasides.

Although some people claim that "Cem" is derived from the ancient Turkic word "Kam" (meaning shamanism), this claim is rejected by all mainstream schollars. First of all, the Turkic word is itself ultimately derived from the Sanskrit word "cramana" (this word is also the root of the Pali word samana" which has become the root of the modern English word "shaman"). Secondly, there are no specific similarities between ancient Turkic cults, as reported by Mahmud al-Kashgari or al-Tabari, and modern Alevi "Cem" rituals. See also the good article in the German Wikipedia: de:Cem (Religion).

• These information are really interesting. If you have reliable references such as Encyclopaedia of Islam why do not you add them. Also, it would be great if somebody here can translate useful information from the German Wikipedia to here--behmod talk 20:52, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

1. 'Semah' comes from pre-Islamic Turkic Shaman dances. 2. Kam means Shaman not Shamanism. 3. Cem is not related to Kam. 4. There are even similarities between old Turkic cults reported by Zemarkhos and modern Alevi. Tengriteg 11:02, 06 August 2007 (UTC)

"Sema" ist not Turkish, it's Arabic and means hearing. The word Shaman ist not Turkish either, it is Tunguskic and has Sanskrit origins (it is taken from Chinese 沙门，沙弥 sha man, which itself is borrowed from Sanskrit śamana, meaning "ascetic"). Identifying Alevi traditions with ancient cults of Turkic nomads is a phenomenon within Turkish nationalist communities, but it is not supported by any serious historian or scholar. Alevism, as part of the Shia movement, has its origins in Western Persia and Iraq, and ultimately goes back to the struggles of anti-caliphal Shia movements as well as Persian-nationalist Zoroastrian revolts (see Babak Khorramdin, Abu Muslim, Khurramites, Shahrbanu, Qizilbash, etc etc). 84.58.187.23 10:15, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Kemalist supporters

I would consider it wrong to say the Alevis are strong supporters of kemalism since it is known that one of the bloodiest revolts against the modern republic of turkey was led by Alevis, the dersim revolt. However it is true that they support secularism due to fear of an islamism.

History Reduction

I do not think this page is a good place to start with postulating on the theories of the origins of the Shi'ite movement. That should go under Shiism, or whatever the article is called. The "Shiahs are an anti-Arab power movement" theory has a lot of other issues with it, such as how do we then explain the power of Shiism among the people of Yemen.Johnpacklambert 01:47, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Apart from "Ali", Alevi blief has nothing to do with Shiism. They are very different. I deeply examined both. Alevi blief comes from the the pre-Islamic Turkish Tengriist religion. Tengriteg 11:17, 06 August 2007 (UTC)

Salman (Parsi) is not Solomon. In persian, Solomon is called Soleyman.

Shia

Please do not disturb the scientiffically correctness of this topic.

Some people, especially people from Turkey, does not know the meaning of the term "Shia". To say Alevis are Shia, does not mean that they are orthodox like the Iranian/Iraqi Ithna Ashariyyahs.

The term Shia, is a term used for the 2nd largest Islamic denomination. Any belief of the world, claiming to follow the path of Imam Ali is classified as Shia. And any islamic belief reckognizing the "Four Rightly Guided Caliphs" is Sunni.

The fact that the Ithna Ashariyyah / Jafaris claims that THEY ARE "The Shia madhab" does not mean that other beliefs can not be Shia. (Xizilbash 09:11, 16 August 2007 (UTC))

The Alevis have nothing to do with the Islam. The Islam and Alevi are two different religions —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.72.113.184 (talk) 09:13, August 21, 2007 (UTC)

Alevism sees itself as being Islamic. But if you don't believe in Alevism, that is your own problem! (Xizilbash 11:57, 21 August 2007 (UTC))

Is Alevism a branch of Yazdanism or Islam?

Are Alevis Yazdans or Muslims?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.15.5.33 (talk) 12:46, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

• Probably syncretic. Funkynusayri 13:11, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you.

Discussion

The beginning ought to describe, as basically as possible, what kind of phenomenon we are speaking of: A religious and cultural movement, mainly Turkish (but also Kurdish), with Shi'i beliefs. By the way, can we get sources for these population estimates?

It seem a basic fact about Alevism that it is often grouped with the Bektashi tradition; at the same time, they are obviously not completely identical with one another. I suggest simply mentioning their veneration of Hajibektash, and the tendency of many to say "Alevi-Bektashi", and leave details of the Bektashis (such as all the countries where they're located) to the article on them.

Same for the various "ghulat" groups (which are anyway listed under "ghulat"). Unlike the Bektashis, nobody says they belong to an "Alevi-Ahl-i-Haqq" tradition" ('Yarsdanism' notwithstanding), and the groups have little contact. So, I propose that it is enough to mention that the groups exist, and refer readers to those articles for details.

I think we can agree on how to phrase the reference to Shi'ism--by explaining the sense in which Alevi are Shi'i (for the most part), and the reason why many avoid the term. On the other hand, there are also Sunni elements as well--such as their interpretation of the four "gates".

At the same time, Alevism is obviously a Turkish (and Kurdish) socio-cultural movement, and a group identity. So we need a paragraph explicating this "native" aspect. (Noting that the Turks moved around a lot, historically--see Shah Ismail.) I don't know enough about "Turkish shamanism" to comment, but perhaps we could get some sources...? The truth is, there is probably also a lot of Orthodox Christian influence too.

At the end of the day, I think we're going to find that "Alevism" is not just one thing, so there's no reason to push one interpretation of it. Best wishes, --Dawud

The source for the population figure is in the main Turkey article as well as [[Religion in Turkey. I am reverting because the population figure is correct and the imprecise non-figure of 15 to 35 percent is unusable. I have no problem with most of your other edits, but please do use the edit summaries present under the edit window. Becoming a registered user would also help. Cheers! Baristarim 08:30, 4 November 2007 (UTC)