Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Irish republicanism

Question

INTERNATIONAL ASPECTS North America - 1800's ?? Re: Jose Marti & meetings with International Republicans (including IRB & other European representatives). I was once told of a meeting held (apart from the 1st American Conference) of International Republicans in North America, at which Jose Marti, Irish Republicans and others met. Does anyone have any details ?

See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:First_International_Conference_of_American_States —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.151.60.200 (talk • contribs).

Active Service Unit

There's an article for this now, so if you see anywhere it needs linking please do so. I've added a few myself, but there might be some more. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 08:47, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Dr. Padraig Quinn

Anyone got any more information on him to expand the article? It's likely he's covered more in offline sources, but it isn't really my area of expertise. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 06:36, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Spam, or valuable resource?

User:Rathingle has added a plethora of links to the same site, http://martindardis.com/, to various articles about Irish Music and related subjects. Normally, I would class these all as WP:LINKSPAM and delete them. However, they seem to be relevant, providing lyrics and chords that may not appear in the article. Can someone else look at these article and give a second opinion? Thanks.--SarekOfVulcan 18:14, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd say the best place for it is say a link in say Irish rebel music, not scattered across many articles. I was tempted to revert them all myself, but I'm caught in two minds like yourself. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 18:16, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Politics of Northern Ireland WikiProject

I have created a proposal for a WikiProject on the Politics of Northern Ireland. Please have a look and comment; if you are interested in participating, please add your name! Warofdreams talk 19:38, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Question concerning nationality

I was looking at the article Ruairí Ó Brádaigh, and would like to stimulate a general discussion regarding nationality, not specifically about this article.

The nationality is listed as [[Republic of Ireland| Irish]]. My understanding would be that a significant proportion of individuals that call themselves republican, would consider each of the two Irish states as illigitimate as each other, and therefore not consider either to provide nationality. I was wondering how should one go about determining nationality, and making the choice between [[Irish Republic |Irish]], [[Republic of Ireland |Irish]], [[Ireland |Irish]], or even [[Northern Ireland |Irish]]. Fasach Nua 14:17, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

We attribute one's nationality to the state, recognized by the rest of the world, of one's birth or citizenship. I presume he holds a passport from the Republic of Ireland and hence is Irish (for our purposes), whether he claims to recognize the state or not (and, something I've always wondered is, if he doesn't recognize it, why would he travel under its sovereignty?) I note that his place of birth is listed as Ireland (the island, rather than the state), though, which I imagine is some nod to his beliefs. This appears to be counter to what is preferred at Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Ireland-related articles). Rockpocket 01:51, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Presumtion is unworthy of an encyclopedia! However your passport point is taken as a rule of thumb. What would be the situation if someone held no travel documents, as I would imagine would not have been uncommon in the early 20th Century? Fasach Nua 20:35, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

My point is, with a lack of verifiable information stating that he revoked citizenship of the country of his birth, or actively gained that of another state, we presume that is his nationality. We generally don't require evidence of any documentation proving nationality unless it deviates from a verified place of birth. However, technically speaking he wasn't born in the ROI, but the Irish Free State (perhaps we should list that under birth country). But since the ROI followed the Free State without any geographical changes, its safe to assume that the citizens of one country became the citizens of that which followed it. Rockpocket 20:54, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

What you are talking about is eligibility, which can come from place of birth, parents, or other more proactive means. I would imagine (unencyclopedic) until recently almost everyone in the RoI had one grandparent who was a British citizen (born pre 1922), and the individual had the choice to take either British/Irish, or both. How would one quantify this choice? Fasach Nua 21:03, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Again, as far as I am aware, we typically assign the nationality of any individual to their state of birth, unless there is evidence that they elected to become a national of another state (of which they are eligible). In the case of Republicans this isn't even a major concern, because they state they would presumably choose (a united Ireland) doesn't actually exist in any legal sense, and therefore they couldn't become a legal citizen of that (hypothetical) state. Rockpocket 21:50, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

When it comes to "Nationality" it's generally never been included on any article I've seen (obviously there's the odd exception like above). Place of birth is all that's required, as it doesn't involve any controversy. Now can I direct you both to a semi-related discussion here? One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 21:59, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't know about that. In many article we say "X is a Irish runner...", this surely indicates nationality? Rockpocket 01:37, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but do you really think it's appropriate to say "X is a British member" about Irish republicans? It's asking for trouble, when all that's needed is a place of birth. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 01:45, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Just to be clear, my earlier comment was related to articles about Irish republicans only, not Irish biographical articles in general. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 01:52, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Do you mean in circumstances where Irish Republicans were born in Ireland while it was part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland? In that case, if a nationality was required for whatever reason, then I would probably use "X is an [[United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland|Irish]] member..." or simply "X is an [[Ireland|Irish]] member..." If you mean in circumstances where Irish Republicans were born in Northern Ireland, then I would probably use "X is an [[Northern Ireland|Northern Irish]] member..." My understanding of the original question, however, was the concern that Irish Republicans born in the ROI after 1937 do not even recognize the ROI as a state, and hence we should not refer to them as [[Republic of Ireland|Irish]]. I don't agree with that. Rockpocket 03:41, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

There is no such thing as northern Irish, Northern Ireland is not a country, it is a British controlled province, therefore under the GFA its population are either Irish, British or have duel nationality.--Padraig 12:22, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Europe is not a country yet one could be described as European, Lancaster is not a country yet one could be described as Lancastrian. There is nothing wrong with describing someone as Northern Irish if they were born in Northern Ireland. Rockpocket 16:41, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

There is plenty wrong with it, it is a Unionist attempt to promote the idea that those Born in Northern Ireland are seperate from the Irish race, and I was born in Northern Ireland and I am Irish, I also have the option of British citizenship or duel nationality, but there is no option for northern Irish.--Padraig 16:50, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't believe anyone else was discussing race, we were discussing place of birth. Rockpocket 17:02, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Well place of birth is Northern Ireland is this case, so where is northern Irish coming from, I was born in Northern Ireland I wasn't born in northern Irish.--Padraig 17:10, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

(reset indent) Its semantics. I was born in "Europe", not "European". So what? I am still European. The point was that if there is verifiable information what one is of a different nationality than the place of birth then we can use that (in your case, you say you are Irish, so we would call you Irish) However, lacking that verifiable information, if one is required to use the phrasing "X is a Y-ish Z" then I would use "Northern Irish" if its a verified fact you were born in Northern Ireland. It would be but a guess to call you Irish or British in that situation. Rockpocket 17:20, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

That's why we don't tend to use it. Describing an Irish republican (from Northern Ireland) as British is contentious, and without verifiable information that they hold Irish nationality we don't tend to call them Irish. So it's safer all round just to say, for example, "born in Belfast, Northern Ireland". Nothing contentious, no POV, no labels the subject would object to, no verifiability problems. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 05:23, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Articles controlled by Republicans

Thank you for directing me to this useful zone of Wikipedia, Vintagekits. Can I get stuck in right away and make a suggestion? I've noticed that many of the Irish-arena articles are regarded as being under the control of a number of the editors who gather hereabouts and as this is obviously right, and totally within Wikipedia policies and ethos, why not formalise the position? Can I recommend a new article tag/banner, that says something like "WARNING - you are now entering Free Articles controlled by Republicans" or similar. This would greatly assist all those editors who accidentally stray into a Republican-controlled article and make the grave mistake (and I mean "grave" literally, snicker - unleashing of the seven hells of the furies is what comes to mind!) of attempting a so-called "edit". Poor fools! Do they not realise! These are Republican articles! I am sure you all agree this would be an excellent move and I look forward to your immediate and massive agreement. In the meantime, please, no IEDs round at my house. Thank you very much. LiberalViews 14:43, 4 November 2007 (UTC)