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Naming (again)

Strong Support - As I said on the Nobel Prize talk page, I cannot believe that Wikipedia knowingly perpetuate a misconception, especially when it is both controversial and offensive to the Nobel family. It is not "only a name", and the wrong name here is not just a shortening or "slang", it is a name intentionally put forward to pretend that the prize is something it isnt (ie violating the neutral POV rule). I cannot understand what is wrong with having a redirect from the popular but 100% wrong and misleading name "Nobel Prize in Economics" to a page with the correct name. That way, the "public" will still find the page, and they might also learn something new in the process. Not to mention that it is completely counterintuitive when the fist line explains that the prize is in fact not a Nobel Prize, but the title of the page contradicts this statement. The Nobel Foundation has in no uncertain terms said that it isnt a Nobel Prize, and they are the only ones who get to make that decision, vote or no vote. It does not matter what "popular belief" is.--Lensor 09:43, 9 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Very Funny The earlier straw poll was crystal clear and only finished a week ago. --RaiderAspect 11:59, 9 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure I understand what you are getting at. I am most certainly not trying to be funny here. I have never before seen this page, as I stumbled upon it by accident as I was looking at the Nobel Prize page for the first time as the first of this year's prizes were announced yesterday. You can have a thousand polls, it does not change the actual factual circumstances: The prize in economics is not a Nobel Prize. End of story. That the majority of the Wikipedia editors participating in this poll think Wikipedia should be a venue for the perpetuation of popular misconceptions I can only see as evidence that too many editors think popular belief is more important than facts. I thought Wikipedia's ambitions were higher than that. I will try not to make that mistake again.--Lensor 12:39, 9 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Glad to hear it. --RaiderAspect 14:18, 9 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Question. What name are you proposing to move the page to? I would suggest Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel since that's the current official English name in use by Sveriges Riksbank, Nobel Foundation, and The Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences. –panda 14:52, 9 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Another question. I find this name discussion very strange because 1) The prize has already an official name (and it is not a Nobel prize according to the Nobel Foundation who leagally administer the prizes) and 2) doesn't this acceptance of a "falce name" give people a "right" to change the name of other wikipedia articles as they see fit? One example would be the European Court of Justice, wose name could be changed to the "EU high court" just because many people think of it as such (though this name is incorrect)? 15:52, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

That's an excellent argument. In French, the official name is "Cour de justice des Communautés européennes", but of course people say "Cour de justice de l'UE", Cour suprême de l'union", and such. And of course the French article's name is fr:Cour de justice des Communautés européennes.--Victor falk 18:28, 10 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please read WP:NAME and WP:NC(CN). The name we use for a Wikipedia article is the name by which the article subject is most commonly known in English. Here, that's "Nobel Prize in Economics," and no, it doesn't matter that that name is not technically correct. --Tkynerd 18:06, 10 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That is for things with no own opinion of what they are called like lakes and mountains. Anyway I brought the issue up at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions#Awards and prizes naming conventions - proposal for discussion so it can be cleared up. // Liftarn

Well, as this name is controversial (proven by this very discussion, as well as the campaing by the Nobel family), I believe WP:NCON supercedes WP:NAME. Acording to this, one should use three objective critera to find the "right" name (for a proper noun, which this is):

-Is the name in common usage in English? (check Google, other reference works, websites of media, government and international organisations)

-Is it the official current name of the subject? (check if the name is used in a legal context, e.g. a constitution)

-Is it the name used by the subject to describe itself or themselves? (check if it is a self-identifying term)

Of these three, only the first is maybe for keeping the current name (and even that one is not clear cut), and the other two clearly support changing it. Also I want to apologize for my tone earlier, but very few things get to me as people knowingly spreading false information.--Lensor 08:05, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

At the first glance I thougt there was a section on "Deceptive names" in WP:NCON, but it was "Descriptive names" so that doesn't really apply. Or perhaps it does. It say "Choose a descriptive name for an article that does not carry POV implications.". // Liftarn

A few people on this page, though insistent, do not make it controversial, just like a few people are not enough to make Moon landing controversial AdamSmithee 08:47, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, it is not only a few people. Secondly, when the Nobel family has made it their "goal in life" to remove the Economy Prize, I would say the name "Nobel Prize in Economics" is very much controversial.--Lensor 08:58, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As established above, the Nobel family is irrelevant. First, if it were up to them, there would be no Nobel prizes, since they contested Alfred Nobel's will, trying to keep the money for themselves. And second, they object to the "official" name as well as the "unofficial" name, so that's a matter between them, the Nobel Foundation, and Sveriges Riksbank, and it has nothing to do with WP. And by the way, Lensor, it's very interesting that you show up, an obviously experienced user, with a new name, making only panda-like edits on articles that panda obsesses about. --Anthon.Eff 03:54, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wow -- I think WP:NPA applies here. Is every new user who uses similar arguments going to be accused of being me now? That's entertaining. Maybe you should realize that the comments I make are not the opinion of a single user and are well known facts, at least among Swedes. Also, it would help if you could get your facts straight. I would recommend reading "Nobel: The Man and His Prizes" if you'd like to know the complete story about the Nobel family's position with Alfred Nobel's will and the Nobel Prizes. –panda 04:49, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And when the awarding organisation have a different view then some stubborn people who insists on promoting a lie then it certainly is controversial (even if it shouldn't be since it's so obvious what the name of the prize is). // Liftarn

More international consensus from the top ten wikipedias:

fr:Prix de la Banque de Suède en sciences économiques en mémoire d'Alfred Nobel

de:Preis der schwedischen Reichsbank für Wirtschaftswissenschaften in Gedenken an Alfred Nobel

pl:Nagroda Banku Szwecji im. Alfreda Nobla w dziedzinie ekonomii

no:Sveriges Riksbanks pris i økonomisk vitenskap til minne om Alfred Nobel

and, last but not least, sv:Sveriges Riksbanks pris i ekonomisk vetenskap til minne av Alfred Nobel

--Victor falk 09:16, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Policy is crystal clear; use the most common name as the article name. The article text explains everything anyway. --RaiderAspect 09:44, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If WP:NAME was the only relevant policy, we wouldn't be having this discussion.--Victor falk 09:49, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Assuming you are referring to WP:NCON, I find the following relevant text there:

Wikipedians should not seek to determine who is "right" or "wrong", nor to attempt to impose a particular name for POV reasons. They should instead follow the procedure below to determine common usage on an objective basis. By doing this, ideally, we can choose a name in a systematic manner without having to involve ourselves in a political dispute.

Proper nouns

The three key principles are:

* The most common use of a name takes precedence;

* If the common name conflicts with the official name, use the common name except for conflicting scientific names;

* If neither the common name nor the official name is prevalent, use the name (or a translation thereof) that the subject uses to describe itself or themselves.

(Emphasis mine.)

Which leaves no doubt that, again, the most commonly used name is to be used for the article. --Tkynerd 11:20, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Those are the principles, yes, but the practical objective naming criteria (as quoted above) contradicts, which cast plenty doubt. A shortening of the name (ie Bank of Sweden Prize or something), or even slang would be acceptable, but to call it something that is 100% wrong and misleading is just weird. Maybe we should start calling whales "fish" now also? After all, there are loads of people who can't tell the difference.--Lensor 11:38, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No. The key principles control the application of the criteria you quoted; the criteria are not co-equal. The most common use of a name takes precedence, and if the common name conflicts with the official name, use the common name except for conflicting scientific names. The correct name of this article is therefore Nobel Prize in Economics because that is the most commonly used name in English. QED, over and out. --Tkynerd 16:08, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Then what is the point of the criteria in the first place? What is the point of the entire contorversial naming policy at all? If you always just use the "common" name, no matter what, then you might as well scrap the entire controversial naming policy, as it is useless for anything beyond a "scientific" name. Of course, there is the entire section about "self-identifying" terms: "These names are not simply arbitrary terms but are key statements of an entity's own identity. This should always be borne in mind when dealing with controversies involving self-identifying names". I contest that "Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel" is in fact a self-identifying term, and as such should be respected. --Lensor 16:22, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The point of the criteria is to provide guidance in choosing between names, either when there is conflict (as here) or when it is not clear what is the most common name. This controversy only "involv[es] a self-identifying name" because some people have a strong desire to use a self-identifying name rather than the name that is actually in accord with the policy on the English Wikipedia. To put it differently, what part of "the most common use of a name takes precedence; if the common name conflicts with the official name, use the common name except for conflicting scientific names" don't you understand? For that matter, what part of "Wikipedians should not attempt to determine who is 'right' or 'wrong'" don't you understand? I don't see how it could be much clearer. --Tkynerd 18:51, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As WP:NAME already states that the most "common" name takes presidence, and you here state that WP:NCON also states that the most "common" name takes precidence (exept from scientific names) no matter how wrong, insulting, misleading (as stated it is not only a "slang" name, it is a 100% wrong name) or just plain stupid it is, then what is the point of WP:NCON? or WP:NC(CN)? Or any other naming policy for that matter. Might as well just have one rule and one rule only: Whatever the most people think is right, no matter what. --Lensor 08:13, 12 October 2007 (UTC) Add: If for some reason the Bank of Sweden would start calling its prize the "Nobel Prize in Economics" I would agree that Wikipedia should not take a stance, and name the page accordingly. Likewise if we were advocating to remove the "in Alfred Nobel's Memony" part of the official prize name (something that Peter Nobel wants). Now this is not the case. There is no "right" and "wrong" to decide between, every involved party is in perfect agreement on what the Prize is called! The only ones perpetuating that it is a Nobel Prize are third party persons, such as laureates and their institutions as well as lazy journalists. --Lensor 08:24, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The common name does not always determine the title of an article in WP. You can find some examples of this in the previous move request. So no, the common name criteria is not the end of the discussion. –panda 16:25, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The most prevalent name always determines the title of an article on the English Wikipedia except for scientific names. The additional criteria at WP:NCON are intended to help resolve situations where it is not clear what is the most prevalent name. --Tkynerd 18:51, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Forgot to mention that the examples above are also not scientific names. –panda 16:33, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

They're also not from the English Wikipedia; they're from other Wikipedias that may have their own naming criteria (which I don't feel obligated to research, as English Wikipedia policy is clear and other Wikipedias' choices aren't relevant). --Tkynerd 18:51, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The curse of the lingua franca... It's not about other wiki's rules, it's about seeing if there's a wider international wikipedia community consensus.--Victor falk 23:40, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, my examples are from the English Wikipedia. (Look in the previous page move request.) –panda 19:09, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I had no way of knowing which examples you were referring to. Your examples from the English Wikipedia are WP:OTHERSTUFF and violate policy in the same way that a move of this article would. Notably, Côte d'Ivoire was the subject of a move proposal that was closed with no consensus, so the current name cannot be said to reflect consensus either. I think American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language is a rather poor example, as the commonly used form is simply a shorter one, not a different one. At any rate, I'm not convinced by those examples at all. --Tkynerd 23:23, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's good that we at least agree that there's no point in bringing up other examples from WP. (See my point about this in the previous move proposal.) Anyway, the point is made. The title of an article is not always the common name. –panda 23:36, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This thread is probably dead but I've finally realized the obvious. Many economists want the name to be "Nobel Prize in Economics" since they think any other name is an attempt to decrease the prestige of the prize. If that's the case, then try proving everyone wrong by using the real name of the prize and seeing if the prestige changes. Otherwise, you're just showing everyone that yes, indeed, the only reason why the prize is prestigious is because some people call it a Nobel Prize, not because of its own merits. (As far as I'm concerned, the prestige of the prize has nothing to do with its name but if you want to perpetuate that myth, then I can't stop you.) –panda 14:30, 13 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see why one should assume bad faith. And for the record, at least I am not an economist in any shape or form. --Uriel 16:28, 23 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Those who do not care, please make your comment here

In my opinion the title of the page Does Not Matter at all. This is really silly. And I'm Swedish. /SvNH 23:58, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Plis don't skjoot! Vi are nötrals! :) --Victor falk 00:06, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am not joking. As long as all reasonably common names or designations are mentioned in the beginning, the title itself simply doesn't matter. There are redirects. /SvNH 00:18, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Allvarligt. Yes, you're quite right, looking at many people's comments, one would believe there is no such thing as a redirect. Because of that, I think the 'lamest war' template at the top is well deserved (but even more because of the humongous amount of wikipolicyparsing...). I'm not neutral, I think the point of an encyclopedia is to be enlightening, and I think people's minds' are more brightened about what the prize is, its history, and controversies about it, when they ask themselves "why the was I redirected to this mouthful!?" than just reading "official name: Sweden's blah blah... yeah, yeah, whatever" in the lede. Mehr licht--Victor falk 00:36, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The reason why the title matters is because:

Currently the Nobel Prize article doesn't mention the official name of the Prize in Economics.
Since people call it "Nobel Prize in Economics", people believe that it is a Nobel Prize and then we have these long threads (1, 2) about that entire issue and what the introductory text should be for the Nobel Prize article.
In other places in Wikipedia, the excuse for using "Nobel Prize in Economics" instead of "Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel" is because the title of this article is "Nobel Prize in Economics", regardless of whether or not the reference that is used for that text actually states "Nobel Prize in Economics". (see 1, 2, 3)
There are certain articles where "Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel" should be used instead of "Nobel Prize in Economics" but those places have become a war zone because certain editors strongly oppose to using the longer name, or any other name for that matter, and revert on sight so that it becomes "Nobel Prize in Economics". [1] [2] [3]
There are English speakers who do not know that the prize is called "Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel" and it would be educational for them to learn it. Only mentioning it once at the top of this article is not as effective as having it in the title of the article, and other places where it should be.

If certain editors here would stop removing every mention of "Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel" + all of its variants and replacing it with "Nobel Prize in Economics", then I wouldn't care either. Anyway, your input in the Nobel Prize issues would be appreciated. –panda 00:22, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Seriously? people have been deleting "...officially known as Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic..." in the article and stuff like that? --Victor falk 05:27, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The text didn't disappear from the Nobel Prize article on its own.

14:46, 8 October 2007 [4] "Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel" was in the Nobel Prize article
17:37, 8 October 2007 [5] Anthon.Eff removed it, citing some "compromise" text that Vision Thing made up [6] and Anthon.Eff approved of [7]. I never agreed to those changes and offered a different version that they rejected [8]. (see Talk:Nobel Prize#Economics if you want to see the entire looooong story.)
01:44, 9 October 2007 [9] I tried to add it back into the article in a different location, with a bunch of references
17:34, 9 October 2007 [10] Vision Thing returned to the article and promptly reverted/removed it along with 16 other edits.
Vision Thing then selectively added back some of my edits, but intentionally left out "Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel" [11]

When I mentioned this in a AN/I, Anthon.Eff accused me of "being disingenuous", that "I [Anthon.Eff] quit monitoring the article, giving –panda the opportunity to make a large number of edits without consulting the other interested editors.", and "he [panda] seems to believe that he alone is right, and that anyone who disagrees with him is obstinate." [12] Suddenly I was the bad person for editing the Nobel Prize article without first consulting with Anthon.Eff and Vision Thing. Go figure... –panda 05:45, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

To all of you that thinks that the name issue is a "lame issue", of course this issue is important, because it’s not just about the name of a prize. By calling the economic prize a Nobel Prize, the Wikipedia article implies something which is 100% false. This is also one of the reasons why teachers discourage their students to use Wikipedia as an information tool. And the argument that this name is the most commonly used in the English language, I just don’t see the point as to why Wikipedia should encourage the wrongful use of this name, especially when the Nobel Prizes are registered trademarks of the Nobel Foundation. 130.241.18.31 15:08, 14 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Nobel Foundation does in fact have an international registered trademark for "Nobel Prize" [13] with the WIPO, as well as other organizations. There's more info about the Nobel Foundation's legal notice here. –panda 17:42, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Alternative names for the prize

This should probably be listed #1 in lamest edit wars. Should these alternative names for the prize be included in the article or not?

Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel (current official name)
Nobel Memorial Prize in Economics
Nobel Prize in Economics
Prize in Economics (short name used on the Nobel Foundation website)

Comments? –panda 23:28, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The third, which is also the title, will do, together with the "official" name (you could easily come up with 5-10 other variations if you wanted to). There is no risk of misunderstanding, and no reason to make the beginning sentences less inteligible just because a handful of wikipedians can't agree on the page name. It is common practice to include alternative names when there is a risk of confusion. That is not the case here. /SvNH 09:29, 13 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Only number one. As SvNH says, there is no risk of misunderstanding. Compare with United States, which only says "The United States of America is a federal constitutional republic...", and not "The United States of America, also known as US, the U.S., USA, Uncle Sam, is a federal constitutional republic..." --Victor falk 14:30, 13 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That's a good point. Only #1 as well. If we want to list the other alternative names, then they can be in a subsection called "Alternative names", where they can all be listed. –panda 15:36, 13 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Just leave in 1 and 3, as per SvNH. There are just as many articles that include alternate names in the lede (North Korea, MDMA, Madonna (entertainer), American Revolutionary War, et cetera). "The Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel, commonly known as the Nobel Prize in Economics..." should work just fine. This makes it clear both what the official name is and why the article is at the current title. No need to go further than that or make a bigger issue out of it. We are micromanaging here. Dekimasuよ! 02:52, 14 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There are also articles that don't mention alternative names in the lede, like in the George W. Bush article "Dubya" is mention quite far down. The same thing with Richard Nixon and "Tricky Dick". // Liftarn

Common names and nicknames aren't equivalent, though. Reliable sources use "North Korea" or "Madonna" without thinking that they are being informal, but the same can't be said of your examples. Dekimasuよ! 13:50, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Just linked to this via the main page. Why is the name of the Bank of Sweden prize titled as a Nobel prize? I've read the common names 'reason' and it just doesn't make sense as the common name in Sweden, Scandinavia and most of Europe is not the Nobel. Now for whatever reason perhaps that's not the case in the US but I don't see how that makes it ok to use Nobel as opposed to Bank of Sweden Prize in Economics. Should we now use commonly used American names for everything in Europe?

As regards the list above. I think Bank of Sweden Prize in Economics should be another option with the common (albeit inaccurate and controversial) name mentioned later on. It's a more succinct and accurate title as many claim the the prize was originally created by the Bank of Sweden as a publicity stunt. Either 'Bank of Sweden Prize in Economics' or #4 above.

I also see no mention of the transparent and well known systematic political neoliberal bias in the article so I'll try and rectify that. SlaineMacRoth 10:43, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The name is indeed important. Michael Nobel was attempting to start his own prize for resaerch in alternative energy sources and the Nobel Foundation was not very happy about it and say they will take legal action.[14] Also the naming of Right Livelihood Award was an issue. The Ig Nobel Prize seems to not have been noticed. // Liftarn

To leave out the "Nobel" part of the name would be entirely misleading. I suggest sticking to number 3 or number 1. Regardless of what some people may think of this award it is awarded on the same terms as the other awards at the same ceromony. As a graduate from the largest economics department in Scandinavia I can tell you that the Nobel name is used more frequently than any of the others mentioned here. I would not object if this article was moved to Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel and this one turned into a redirect instead. Please people, common decency and respect is more important here. This is not the place to discuss politics or other petty issues. Academic decency and respect, please. EconomicsGuy 13:02, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps we should assume that the foundation itself knows what their own award is called. Or are we going to disagree with them too? This didn't make it to WP:LAME without reason. EconomicsGuy 14:25, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's also a trademark issue altough the chance of the Nobel Foundation suing Wikiepdia is probably low. // Liftarn

The common name of this prize in Sweden and other European countries is irrelevant since this is English Wikipedia, and only relevant name is the one that the majority of English speakers can most easily recognize. -- Vision Thing -- 20:12, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

FYI. I didn't include Bank of Sweden Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel only because it is already in the article. I was assuming that no one was planning to remove it, but it is of course one of the names that should be included in the article IMHO. –panda 16:12, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Expand "History and name controversy"

I think we would have less of our own controversy if we wrote about that controversy in the article. Thank you.--victor falk 14:02, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree! I was about to start it myself but have been busy with real life. :) Good to see that you started it. –panda 16:07, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Again, only Wikipedia editors (and a few others) think this is a problem. Having a large controversy section when in reality there is no controversy violates WP:UNDUE. /SvNH 19:30, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, I removed this section along with other content which violates Wikipedia's policy on no original research or has no connection with this article. -- Vision Thing -- 20:17, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Since there was no original research involved, I've replaced it. It's simply facts that are all referenced. If you dispute the facts, then please take it up with the organizations that have posted them. If you are trying to hide facts to push a certain POV, then I would suggest that you please stop. WP has an "absolute and non-negotiable" WP:NPOV policy that states "All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), representing fairly and without bias all significant views (that have been published by reliable sources)." Also, please stop claiming that everything you don't like is original research -- consider reading the original research article. –panda 20:52, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject." (from WP:UNDUE). As far as I know only a tiny fraction of the controversies around the prize has had anything to do with its name. /SvNH 22:53, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And what are you basing that comment on? –panda 23:25, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, for instance that Nationalencyklopedin (Swedish national encyclopaedia) mentions all the prizes in the article "Nobelpris", and simply calls the economy prize "ekonomipriset" meaning just that. No mention of naming controversies there. A quick look in Encyclopaedia Britannica (online version, "academic edition") gives the same impression. Swedish and German language Wikipedias don't make an issue of it, either. /SvNH 01:54, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The names listed are not controversial, they are facts about the prize. Since this is the main article about the prize, they should be included. If you dispute these facts, then please contact the organizations that have used those names. Of course you won't find these names in the Swedish or German versions because they apply to the English name of the prize. Another reason to include them is because they are excellent cross-references for anyone searching for information about the topic. Please stop removing them just because you don't like them. All of the information is referenced. –panda 02:17, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The "undue weight" part of the NPOV policy says that material should be included in proportion to its importance to the subject. In the sources I have given (and you cannot question the credibility of the first two of them) there are no signs that this "naming controversy" even exists. Why should Wikipedia differ significantly? /SvNH 02:35, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Here's my two cents: the name controversy should both be named and not given undue weight. I strongly feel that it should be kept of the lede. Most people don't care will see a long string of letter that their brains will immediately translate to "Nobel prize". Those who do will see that there is a section about it[15]. I think it should be kept rather short, half a dozen of lines.--victor falk 05:10, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

To SvNH:

If this article were to contain as much info about the econ prize as what's in Nationalencyklopedin and Encyclopaedia Britannica, there would only be a couple of sentences max or no article at all (neither encyclopedia's have a special article dedicated to the econ prize). So I don't see the point of using them as examples for what should and should not be included in this article.
I noticed an error in Encyclopaedia Britannica's Nobel Prize article. EB states that there is a Nobel Committee for 6 prizes, which would imply that the econ prize is decided by a Noble Committee. The name of the committee for the econ prize is the (Economics) Prize Committee [16], or Ekonomipriskommittén in Swedish [17], and not the Nobel Committee, which is another good reason to not duplicate info from EB.
I also noticed that EB calls the prize "Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences".

–panda 06:19, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

...and still, you have not shown that this is a controversy outside Wikipedia. /SvNH 11:28, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

...and I've already stated that it's not about a controversy -- they're simply facts. This isn't the only article in Wikipedia that has a section discussing the name of the article. –panda 14:16, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Those facts are trivia irrelevant for the article's subject. -- Vision Thing -- 17:57, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As I said, those facts trivia irrelevant for the article's subject and you are giving them undue weight. -- Vision Thing -- 18:40, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

About the name

When the bank said "let's have a Nobel in economics!", the foundation didn't like that. At all. They were scared that everybody and his dog would start their own prize, and that at the end there would be stuff like the "Nobel in kindergarden art for outstanding achievement in finger painting"^{[citation needed]}, and stuff. They wouldn't let them use the name at all, but the bank went "You can't forbid me saying Nobel! I can say it as much as I want! Nobel! Nobel! Nobel! Nobel!". A guy in India got sued for saying "Nobel Prize".^[1]^[2] At the end they compromised on having a name having 'Nobel' in it but so hugely long that no one would never ever say it, but would say something with any or all of "bank", "award", "economy", "prize", "Nobel", or "Sweden" in it. But not "Norway". Anyway, that was a pretty bad brawl, things got personal, most of them are cousins or something. Sweden is a duck pond ^{[dubious – discuss]}.

Or something like that... I think it at least captures the gist of it. Just has to meet WP:SS--victor falk 22:00, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Michael Nobel Energy Award

I would like to move the paragraph about the Michael Nobel Energy Award to the Nobel Prize page since it seems to be the more appropriate location for this. Since Victor falk and Liftarn have contributed to this section, could you please let me know if you agree? –panda 19:18, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Is the "Michael Nobel Energy Award" administred by the Nobel Foundation in relation to the Nobel Prize? --Camptown 21:38, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's irrelevant if the "Michael Nobel Energy Award" is administered by the Nobel Foundation or not. If you are implying that it shouldn't be included in the Nobel Prize article if it is not administered by the Nobel Foundation then you should take up that discussion with the editors that have added text about why there is no Nobel Prize in mathematics & engineering and applied science. –panda 22:28, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Copied over text about the prize:

In 2007 Dr. Michael Nobel, a great grand nephew of Alfred Nobel, attempted to start a prize called the Michael Nobel Energy Award that would award innovations in alternative energy technology.^[3]^[4] The plan was announced at nanoTX 07. The Nobel Foundation quickly reacted with a lawsuit for infrigment of their trademark.^[5]^[6]^[7]

I like that list of what the laureates have called the prize --victor falk 00:41, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Correct, it should be in the Nobel Prize article instead. // Liftarn

Name again

I can see this was discussed last year, but I'm bothered that this is referred to as a "Nobel prize" when it is not. I'm aware that "Nobel Prize in Economics" is the most common name, but that's what redirects are for, and I don't think Wikipedia should be reiterating popular inaccuracies. If anything, an encyclopaedia is somewhere people come for the truth. —Ashley Y 07:57, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is that some people are very interested in promoting the inaccuracy. // Liftarn

I'm still baffled by how this ever became an issue. If the foundation itself is not considered a reliable source for the name of their own award then I have to say that seems like edit warring for the sake of edit warring. A redirect to the official name would solve this. We are an encyclopedia, what is so horrible about being accurate even if the name is long. Like Ashley Y says, that's what we got redirects for. Nobel prize or not, this is a huge honor. To those who recieve it it isn't about the name, it's about the honor of being awarded the prize. Just use the official name and move on. EconomicsGuy 11:21, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Someone here really needs to read WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT EconomicsGuy 11:28, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Feel free to move it. As long as the current "official" name and the more common variant (N P in E or whatever) is included, the title of the page does not matter. /SvNH 11:36, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I couldn't agree more and I would move it myself if it wasn't for the fact we already have 2 AN/I threads about this and given the current situation I would be reverted instantly and more drama would follow. EconomicsGuy 11:44, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ok... but if you agree with me, then the current name is also fine :-) I'm not concerned with the name as such, but I am concerned that the quality of the article is diminished when editors think like "hm, ok, we lost, but if we can't have it our way we should at least have our own section of alternative names for compensation". /SvNH 11:57, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Okay let's see if we can settle this. How many object to the move proposal? How many object to the article being trimmed to the bare facts regarding the name? I agree that blocking one of the disputes because the other one was lost is very disruptive. A sourced list of what the award has been called is fine but that's as far as we should go. The other stuff is bordering OR and SYNTH in my opinion. EconomicsGuy 12:04, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I do not object to moving the page to a more correct title. Ever since the page was moved to "Nobel Prize in Economics" on 18 September 2006, the title has been under discussion (this is the 4th time), and moved 4x, which has been disruptive towards article development. Those opposed to the page move have, for the most part, not contributed to the article's development and/or have removed text from the article, regardless of whether or not the text has been cited. –panda 15:43, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to know how many object to the move proposal see Talk:Nobel_Prize_in_Economics#Rename_the_page. --Uriel 16:02, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

...and you'll see that there is no consensus, partly because certain editors refuse to compromise. I'll be happy to copy my analysis of the two previous move requests here, which the closing admin has not commented on yet. –panda 16:52, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is actually two issues

The name of the article
The name used in articles

Regarding the first issue the article name benefits from being short as long as it don't violate NPOV (as the current name may do). Regarding the second issue it is covered by WP:NCON that says "Where self-identifying names are in use, they should be used within articles." so that the full name (or official short form) should be used in articles (and templates) is obvious. // Liftarn

The name used in articles is actually the big issue. If we use the long name the readers will probably think: "OK, so this guy didn't won the Nobel Prize in Economics, as I've heard somewhere else. He just got some Bank of Sweden award, so probably someone else must have got the NP in E that year." And THIS is misleading. BTW, reading the looong discussions above, most of the editors who are for the long name for the article consider that the winner pages would use the common name (NP in E), thus arguing that the redirect would be sufficient AdamSmithee 13:30, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, then the readers would be more informed than earlier, since that goy didn't win the Nobel Prize in Economics since there is no such thing. However if that is an issue (I don't think it is as it still included the Nobel name) it can be fixed by appending an 'aka "Nobel Prize in Economics"'. And compare with for instance Clint Eastwood where it says "Eastwood has been nominated for the Academy Award for directing and producing eight times, winning for Unforgiven and Million Dollar Baby." Huh, so he didn't win an Oscar... // Liftarn

No, they will leave thinking that there is a NP in E, only that the guy didn't get it. Whatever you believe of the name, this is less informed than before AdamSmithee 13:59, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

See the above example with Clint Eastwood. Did he win an Oscar? And I'm not opposed to giving the long version, like "In 20XX Nnn Nnnn won the Bank of Sweden Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel, aka "Nobel Prize in Economics", for his theory about widgets...". Saying "In 20XX Nnn Nnnn won the Nobel Prize in Economics for his theory about widgets..." would leave the using thinking that Nnn Nnn did win the Nobel Prize in Economics and that ther is such a prize and that would be even more wrong. // Liftarn

I wouldn't mind the "aka" version in the lead. I myself have put that version in some articles as a nice compromise AdamSmithee 14:21, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Liftarn's suggestion to list the official name + the aka is already being used in some articles about Economics Laureates and I personally see that as the best compromise. If AdamSmithee's concern is true, then it can be concluded that many people don't know the real name of the prize. Thus, it would be educational and instructive to also include the real name of the prize in articles that only state "Nobel Prize in Economics". –panda 14:29, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

AFAIK it is not the job of wikipedia to be 'educational', but to represent reality, and in reality everyone calls the prize 'Nobel Prize in Economics'. We don't have an 'aka' in every article that mentions the 'United States of America' as 'United States' (or any other of the hundreds of such examples all over wikipedia). --Uriel 15:58, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The reality is that the prize is called "Bank of Sweden Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel", that some people use a slang term for the prize may be good and well in casual communication, but not in an encyclopedia. // Liftarn

Hm, see above (EB etc) :-/ /SvNH 16:35, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Same comment, see above. EB isn't always correct and relying on incorrect sources here is bizarre. –panda 16:47, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In reply to Uriel (aka Lost.goblin), there are indeed articles in WP that list the different names used for the topic, e.g., yoghurt and filmjölk (I wrote the section). The interesting thing about the name here is that it has been called so many different names in English both officially and unofficially. –panda 17:22, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please stop removing common name from introduction. According to WP:LEAD, The article's subject should be mentioned at the earliest natural point in the prose in the first sentence, and should appear in bold face. -- Vision Thing -- 17:53, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please stop removing content from the article that you do not like. This is the second time that you have removed several edits from an article for no reason. [18] The first was with the Nobel Prize article, where you removed 17 edits by 9 different editors. If you didn't like the common name being removed from the introduction, all you had to do was replace it, not remove 6 edits by 5 different editors. Your edits are a sign of WP:OWNERSHIP. I'm reverting your edits and giving you a second chance to edit the article properly. –panda 18:10, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My personal preference would be "Nobel Memorial Prize in Economics". It is still (somewhat) short, yet indicates that there is a distinction between it and the other (real) Nobel prizes. Cardamon 19:14, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That's fine with me. –panda 19:51, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding point 1., Bank of Sweden Prize and Bank of Sweden Prize in Economics are both short accurate neutral names. —Ashley Y 23:19, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That's true. A third reason why I like "Nobel Memorial Prize in Economics" is that in addition to showing that there is a distinction, the similarity in names gives a hint that there is a relation between it and the other Nobel prizes. Cardamon 00:45, 18 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Any name except for "Nobel Prize in ..." is fine with me. –panda 00:51, 18 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I also could go for Nobel Memorial Prize in Economics. —Ashley Y 03:30, 18 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I also support "Nobel Memorial Prize in Economics" (we could also use "Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences" as I think that is the official short form, but now I can't seem to find the link). // Liftarn

If someone wants to try moving the page again, feel free to do so. The current title may be a possible trademark infringement since "Nobel Prize" is a registered trademark of the Nobel Foundation and there is no Nobel Prize in economics. –panda 14:59, 19 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Prize in Economics is not a Nobel Prize

Since I'm pretty sure my edit to the first paragraph will get removed from the article shortly, the Nobel Foundation does in fact state:[19]

"The Prize in Economics is not a Nobel Prize."

–panda 05:07, 18 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently no one cares about that since this is still an issue. I give up here. EconomicsGuy 14:03, 18 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think you said it so well before: "Someone here really needs to read WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT". –panda 15:36, 18 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

neoliberalism and the prize

Please consider that 80% of the winners are american or englich. This is totally out of proportion, when compared with other prizes. And the vast majority of these winners are clearly in favor of a strong liberalism.

This is a big unfair bias towards economists of other nations, and to those who support other visions of economics.

I wish someone adds a thing on it rather than the dubious questions of the "Controversy" section.

Can I point you to the fact that, this is because most Economists have been white, male and English speaking until recently. Though obviously (as you can see yourself), this is changing as the composition of Economists change. Amartya Sen for example? There is no more inherent bias in the Economis prize than there is any of the others, for example I believe women make up only about 5% of recipiants thus far (excluding peace), as more women take leading roles in science this will increase. If you believe your criticisms are valid, they are valid for all the subjects (except for peace definately, literature maybe).

I would have thought that the argument for a bias is not generally associated with the Anglo-American centric winners of the prize, but also with the right wing economic bias within that set of winners. Also, the involvement of Assar Lindbeck is an ancillary support. The argument is explained further in this article. I think this should be expounded on in the criticism section and certainly if the naming issue is to be mentioned then this should. SlaineMacRoth 13:08, 18 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If you feel that this should be added, then be WP:BOLD. If someone removes it, they will hopefully explain why here. If they have no valid reason for removing it, then you can replace it. This article is the scene of multiple edit wars but don't let that stop you from contributing. –panda 15:34, 18 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It would need reliable sources. // Liftarn

The article Slaine links us to is pretty thoroughly footnoted, and I believe qualifies as a reliable source. What's your thinking? --Orange Mike 15:50, 18 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The footnotes probably. Don't know about the article itself. Seems to be an FAQ or personal site. // Liftarn

Some of the text is factually incorrect so I would personally be very careful about what part of the text can be used as a resource for an argument here. However, looking instead at the sources in the footnotes may be worthwhile. –panda 16:06, 18 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

SlaineMacRoth: Could you modify the wording of the text since it's still not clear to me how everything is related to each other and what the neo-liberal bias has to do with the rest of the text. –panda 18:36, 18 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

@Orange Mike - that article is well referenced and some of the points are backed up by those references so I've included some of those. @panda. I'll look at it again and try to make it clearer. The bias is further outlined by a post-autistic economics review article - An IgNobel Scandal by Dr Alex Millmow, an Australian economist at the Ballarat University. SlaineMacRoth 19:10, 18 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I question the validity of "Assar Lindbeck was the chair of the selection committee from 1980-1994". According to the Nobel Foundation, "Election [to the committee] shall be for a period of three years." and "The chairman may be re-elected twice".[20] This was a part of an amendment made to the statutes in 1996 so I'd have to find the previous version to know for sure. –panda 20:27, 18 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Nevermind -- I found the text supporting this in An Interview with Assar Lindbeck: "As a member of the Committee for the Prize in Economic Science in Memory of Alfred Nobel for 25 years (1969-94) and its chairman for 14 years (1980-94), how do you respond to these voices?" [21] –panda 20:48, 18 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Text: "Some critics claim the prize has a neo-liberal bias." is unsupported by reliable sources. Articles in the New York Times and Post-Autistic Economics Review talk about favor toward mainstream economists (that hardly can be described as a bias, especially as a "neo-liberal bias"), while "The Long FAQ on Liberalism" is not a reliable source by any standard (it's a personal, extremist web page). Rest of the section is attempt of synthesis and original research. -- Vision Thing -- 17:30, 19 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Bias against an alternate to a neo-liberal or neoclassical view is supported by the links and reliable sources. The inclusion of such an obvious bias within a criticism section is perfectly valid even if it were, currently, a bias against a non-mainstream minority. Many criticism sections of wikipedia articles contain valid minority critiques, this is similar. One which is vouched for by the Post-Autistic Economics Review and further by Milton Friedman with respect to Joan Robinson, and others, is certainly mentionable. Therefore the bias critique is valid, should remain and is comparable to the naming issue. The FAQ on Liberalism is well referenced but the critique does not rest on it as the references support the claims, therefore WP:SYN is not applicable. I shall revert the complete deletion. SlaineMacRoth 00:50, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

SlaineMacRoth must stop questioning the integrity of Assar Lindbeck, at least here on Wikipedia. The claims which are implicitly made does not make sense. If one should talk about biases one would rather make the argument that Asser Lindbeck is one of the most effective defenders of the core values of the Swedish welfare state. In large thanks to the reforms suggested by Lindbeck in 1994 Sweden is still able to publicly provide a large set of goods, incl. health care and education, for free to all citizens. SlaineMacRoth must also stop mixing up Keynesianism with ideology. Keynesianism is a set of tools to analyze economic questions and recommend policies. It is also wrong to claim that no economists using Keynesian analytic tools have been awarded the prize. A stark example of the contrary is Robert Mundell. 128.111.225.205 01:17, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Robert Mundell won the prize in 1999, which is after 1994 when Assar Lindbeck stopped being a member of the prize committee and after they made changes to the statues due to criticisms about the committee members being biased. Do you have any example from before 1994? –panda 03:10, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am sorry to write this, but this is a really disturbing question when it comes from a so frequent editor of this article as User:Panda. Economics 101: Keynesianism is primarily a macroeconomic concept. Almost all macroeconomist who received the prize prior to 1994 would be labeled keynesians, with obvious outstanding examples as Hicks, Tobin, Solow, and others. 128.111.225.205 00:36, 21 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

@ 128.111.225.205 I'm not saying no 'Keynesian' economist or, one awarded for using such techniques, ever won the prize (as I would have thought, the sources make clear). The accusation is a one of bias against this or other alternate views. Separating ideology from economics, or from a 'set of tools' within same, is a curious charge to make in a field such as economics - as opposed to Physics or Chemistry say. And I don't think I'm really questioning Lindbeck's integrity, merely mentioning his mainstream, neoclassical or neoliberal viewpoint and the fact that he was involved with selection over such a long period of time. Perhaps this needs editing and I see some of this has already been done. This is not to say that a bias no longer existed after 1994, but the recent statues changes show that a change was required to remove even the perception of a bias and to respond to criticisms. While the whole question of its validity and narrow focus remains. Either way, the critique is there and should be expressed in some form I feel, i.e. edited but not just completely deleted.

* "The accusation is a one of bias against this or other alternate views" – would you raise similar objections agains the prize in physiology for not awarding more prizes to alternative treatment forms like acupuncture. It's obviously a bias towards good, serious research which is recognized by the leading universities of the world. But to prominently place a "critique" of that "bias" on Wikipedia is just wrong.

* "[Lindbeck's] neoclassical or neoliberal viewpoint" – this is a really curious statement. Again SlaineMacRoth mixes up neoclassical and "neoliberal", which reveals a lack in insight in the matter. These are two widely different things and should not be confused, at least not by a frequent contributer to Wikipedia.

* The way it is written now, the article is clearly questioning Lindbeck's integrity. If SlaineMacRoth thinks Lindbeck's integrity was questionable, he can write an op-ed article and submit it to a newspaper and not use this place to express it. 128.111.225.205 00:36, 21 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I would also point to the Dagens Nyheter article in the More controversy/criticism about the prize section of this talk page. Particularly the fourth option on,

"4 Try to gradually adjust the prize so that it better reflects the viewpoints of all the social sciences for how economics functions in different types of societies. The problem then is that reality comes into play and the difficulties to agree will be large. On the other hand, the Swedish Academy has for the most part managed to find worthy recipients for the Prize in Literature, so it should not be completely impossible."

The hypothetical situation of Sweden's provision of public goods not being possible without Lindbeck's policy prescriptions is just that, hypothetical. Sweden has certainly performed well in the past in bucking the mainstream trend [22]. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SlaineMacRoth (talk • contribs) 11:54, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

@ 128.111.225.205

The acupuncture analogy is a snide irrelevancy as alternate economic views are common and valid. It is not wrong to mention the quite obvious bias, which resulted in changes to the statutes. If a criticism is to be included on the naming issue then there certainly should be an inclusion of the bias issue.

The articles on neoclassical and neoliberalism may clear things up for you. This is another strawman point, as I'm not directly equating the two.

To repeat again, Lindbeck's integrity is not under question, the question of bias is. The bias criticism section is supported by a number of statements of fact. Finally, please refrain 205 from removing the entire, perfectly valid, critique with the same explanation used every time. SlaineMacRoth 19:40, 23 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Edit war

Personally, I support using the short term Nobel Prize in Economics, along with an elaboration of the name in the main article. The naming issue has been under continious review and a rather broad majority has repeatedly found the short form correct and relevant enough to be used in templates and articles covering the topic. For some reasons, not known to me, there are editors who, from time to time, are forcefully and with bad faith trying to change the established/agreed short form of the Nobel Prize in Economics in violation to agreements reached during the discussion. The editor's cause may be good, but they should inititate new votes, explaining their reasons, convincing other editors that they have a point - instead of fueling unproductive edit wars which don't lead anywhere. --Camptown 16:54, 18 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As I've already stated on your talk page and one of the templates, there is no agreement about using "Nobel Prize in Economics" here. All discussions here have ended with no consensus. Your claim that there is a majority is false and misleading so please stop. –panda 17:25, 18 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Lawsuit

I removed following text: The nickname "Nobel Prize in Economics" has been the issue of a lawsuit. In 2004, a book publisher was sued for stating that Amartya Sen was a Nobel Prize winner in the Bengali translation of a book by Sen. The petitioner claimed that "There is no Nobel Prize for economics. So it is wrong to describe Sen as a Nobel Prize winner." Mentioning this lawsuit in not suitable for encyclopedic article. According to this article, lawsuit was dismissed as "totally misconceived". -- Vision Thing -- 17:55, 18 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Then it makes sense to also include the outcome in the article seeing how there's nothiing not encyclopedic about it. Thanks for finding it! –panda 17:59, 18 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

On second glance, I noticed that it's a separate issue from 1998, so I've included it in the article appropriately. –panda 18:11, 18 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please note that the courd did not say the Prize in Economics is a Nobel prize. // Liftarn

You are giving undue weight to these lawsuits. Anybody can start a lawsuit against anybody. Just the fact that lawsuits were started doesn't merit an inclusion into this article. -- Vision Thing -- 17:32, 19 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I would agree that it is a bit insignificant to merit mention in the article. If the lawsuit went any further and garnered more international attention then maybe different but I don't see a need every friviolus lawsuit every filed. Think of all the "crimes" and lawsuits that have been filed both domestically and internationally against George W. Bush. If we included those we would probably need a splinter article to accommodate them. At most I think this lawsuit may merit inclusion in the Amartya Sen article but certainly not here. Agne ^Cheese/^Wine 18:01, 19 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

More controversy/criticism about the prize

The Prize That Even Some Laureates Question, New York Times, 2007-10-20 [23] –panda 04:54, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Right for the Wrong Reasons: Why Galbraith Never Got the Prize, New York Times, 2006-05-11 [24]

The Nobel Prize in Economics – barrier for new thinking, post-autistic economics review, 2004-10-25 [25] (originally published in Dagens Nyheter, "Nobelpriset i ekonomi hinder för nytänkande", 2004-10-10 in Swedish) Written by Peter Söderbaum, a professor (emeritus since 2006) of ecological economics at Mälardalen University.

Nobel by association: beautiful mind, non-existent prize, openDemocracy, 2007-10-15 [26] (originally published 2002-10-23)

–panda 06:06, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal on template talk to rename

I locked the templates due to edit waring, but there's a promising potential compromise to rename them to either "Nobel Memorial Prize in Economics" or "Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences." It has been suggested that this compromise title may also be appropriate here. Please comment at Template talk:Nobel Prize in Economics‎#Proposed Template Name & Title. Cool Hand Luke 16:46, 22 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

=

The first paragraph sounds like it's all about some kind of controversy, instead of what the prize is, who awards it, and to whom and why. Instead, it launches into some defensive crap about why the prize has lots of names, how it's just as good as the regular nobel prize.(just because it is the same prize being awarded by the same entity) Instead, we hear the whining from someone who's mad because someone he hates got the prize and now has created a "stink" over the name. oohh! Alfred didn't say economics in his will, therefore, this isn't a "real" nobel prize. oh my! Never mind that the Nobel foundation is the executor of his will, and therefore speaks for him, not the 2nd cousin's great grand uncle's friend's former room mate. We have to be treated to this flap in the first paragraph?SecretaryNotSure 21:54, 22 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Do you see now how this ended up on WP:LAME? This isn't even about the award - if that was the case then the only real disagreement here is that the editors cannot agree that they basically do agree that the foundation is the most reliable source for the name of their own award. Damn now my head hurts again... happens everytime I review this dispute. EconomicsGuy 07:47, 23 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm just wondering how many versions of the first paragraph can be created before the factual errors and half-truths are corrected. Can someone please tell me why it's so important for some editors that the prize be called the "Nobel Prize in Economics"? (Apparently that is more important than getting the text correct.) –panda 16:30, 23 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

OK good point so let's try again: How many are against using the official name? Can we agree to separate the naming dispute from the other dispute so that we can solve the problems one at a time? It makes no sense to me why we can't use the official name. As for those who are here to argue against economics in geneneral you have found the wrong article to disrupt. EconomicsGuy 17:32, 23 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm personally fine with either the 'official' (in Swedish) name or 'Nobel Prize in Economics' being used first in the first paragraph, followed by a mention of the other version of the name and perhaps a list of other laternative names. I'm personally much more worried about standarizing the usage of the name in articles that refer to this article, but seems people are not too interested in solving that issue once and for all, *sigh* --Uriel 17:42, 23 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There are at least 3 editors above who have agreed that using both the official and common name in articles is the best compromise. As stated elsewhere, the problem has only been when only one name is used in an article. –panda 17:52, 23 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

From what I can tell, this frames the issue nicely. Both names obviously apply, but the article can only sit at one title, and small templates should only use one name. For these another compromise seems appropriate. Cool Hand Luke 18:47, 23 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What on earth happened to this article? It used to be quite ok, now it is just full of factual errors. Now it says the prize is "called" "Sveriges riksbank ..." , and by the Nobel Foundation no less?? This is not true. The Nobel Foundation did not name the prize, Sveriges Riksbank did (after being in told in no uncertain terms by the Nobel Foundation that "Nobel Prize" was not OK). The prize is not "called" "Sveriges riksbank ...", that is its proper official name. If anything is "called" something, it is "The Nobel Prize in Economics". It now also says that a Nobel Committee selects the laureates, also that is a lie. Also further down in the text a number of insertions have changed the meaning into implying it is a Nobel Prize (in comparison with the "other" Nobel Prizes). It is not [30]. It is one thing to use "common" names when naming articles (for ease of navigation), but when "common" use also dictates the content of the articles, in blatant disregard of factual circumstances, then Wikipedia siezes to be a source of information and becomes a vehicle for the perpetuation of misconceptions. --Lensor 10:39, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There's an interesting article in the New York Times (A History Department Bans Citing Wikipedia as a Research Source) that's relevant here. –panda 15:57, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A look at the history shows who it is that won't play nice. // Liftarn

In the new first paragraph, it actually says "though it was never endorsed by Nobel." Someone stop me from adding "because he was dead at the time." This just an example of .... how do I say it graciously... "not so great prose?" This is just an example of how silly this "name" dispute has gotten, if nonsense statements like that are in the first paragraph.SecretaryNotSure 04:20, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Check out [31] where it says: December – Economics Laureates receive their prize. The Nobel Prize Award Ceremony takes place on 10 December in Stockholm, where the Nobel Laureates receive their Nobel Prize, which consists of a Nobel Medal and Diploma, and a document confirming the prize amount.

Which leads me to the next question, if this prize isn't "really" a nobel prize, why is it on the website called "The Official Web Site of the Nobel Foundation Copyright © Nobel Web AB 2007"? SecretaryNotSure 04:59, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's on the Nobel Foundation's website because Sveriges Riksbank pays the Nobel Foundation to put it there -- see the statutes. It's crystal clear that it is NOT a Nobel Prize since the Nobel Foundation states "The Prize in Economics is not a Nobel Prize". The Nobel Foundation holds the "Nobel Prize" trademark so they are the ones that can decide if something is a Nobel Prize. I believe someone wrote something earlier about WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT... If you don't want to believe it, that's fine. But the article should be based on facts, not personal beliefs. Stating:

Because the prize in economics was added to the list of prizes specified by Alfred Nobel the prize is not a technically a "Nobel Prize."

is blatant WP:OR and/or WP:SYNTH. As you said, "This just an example of .... how do I say it graciously... "not so great prose?" This is just an example of how silly this "name" dispute has gotten, if nonsense statements like that are in the first paragraph." –panda 07:22, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, fine. I'm sure there's money involved. No one's holding a gun to the head of the Nobel Foundation, I presume they want this prize to be part of the "whole Nobel thing." Who am I to argue with the King of Sweden? He gives out the prize, I never heard him complaining. But that's fine, I don't want to seem obstruction-izing. There IS a story to be told here, knowledge to impart about the history of the prize, the reason for the naming dispute, etc.

The reason for complaining about the "bad prose" - and I meant that in a light hearted way - is with statements like "Alfred Nobel would never have approved of this ..." it sounds like the wikipedia is somehow channeling the ascended spirit of Alfred Nobel and divining his wishes.

There's just one thing bugging me. Every book and writing I have talks about this nobel prize in economics. It's been that way for like, 40 years. It seems to me if there was some dispute then they should have argued over it 40 years ago, not now, in 2007. I don't see it as my place to tell "the world" hey! you've been calling it the wrong thing all these years!SecretaryNotSure 07:45, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Eh, I thought that was, you know, kind of the point of an encyklopedia, to tell people when they are factually wrong.. I think the current revision actually is quite nice. It states that the real name is "Sveriges riksbank..", that it is often called a Nobel Prize, but that it really isnt. There is very little orating about this, just a statement of facts, with a paragraph about the naming controversies separate at the bottom of the page.--Lensor 14:33, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have intentionally removed the part about how the prize was never endorsed by Nobel and then moved a couple sentences around to improve the continuity of the text. –panda 15:13, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I like it even better now (that was actually the only part I was not fully happy with). It is enough to say that is not a Nobel Prize, that it was not instituted by Alfred Nobel therefore goes without saying.--Lensor 15:19, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Introductory paragraph

The name Sveriges Riksbank appears 6 times in the first paragraph. The word economics appears 3 times. Let's not lose sight of this article's topic. --Anthon.Eff 16:11, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Bizarre comment. I don't think anyone has lost sight of the article's topic -- it's Sveriges Riksbank's prize in economic sciences (which includes economics). –panda 16:26, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Not to mention that you are only using a single variant of economics when counting, skewing the results). "Sveriges Riksbank" - 1st time = name of price, 2nd time =Swedish translation of name of price, 3rd time = who created the prize, 4th time = who instigated the prize (ok, this one might be redundant, but I dont see how to cut it), 5th time = who pays for the prize. There is no 6th time. "Economic" - 1st time = in name of prize, 2nd time=Swedish translation ("ekonomisk"), 3rd time = what it is for, 4th time = that it is an honor, 5th time ="Nobel Prize in economics", 6th time = who select the laureates

"The Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel (in Swedish: Sveriges riksbanks pris i ekonomisk vetenskap till Alfred Nobels minne) is a prize created by Sveriges Riksbank (the central bank of Sweden) and awarded each year for outstanding intellectual contributions in the field of economics. The prize is generally considered the most prestigious honor in economics. It is not a Nobel Prize,[1] though it is often called the "Nobel Prize in Economics". The award was initiated some 70 years after the death of Alfred Nobel by Sveriges Riksbank on its 300th anniversary in 1968, and first awarded in 1969. The economics laureates are selected by the Prize Committee of the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences in accordance with the guidelines for the Nobel Prizes. The laureates receive their diploma and gold medal from the King of Sweden at the same December 10 ceremony in Stockholm as the Nobel laureates in physics, chemistry, physiology or medicine, and literature. Sveriges Riksbank pays the Nobel Foundation to administrate aspects of the prize and provides the cash award for the prize."--Lensor 16:30, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's not a bizarre comment. Only bizarre thing here is the version of introduction quoted above by Liftarn. I have changed intro into version that should be acceptable to both sides. -- Vision Thing -- 16:42, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Very funny. The claim that I am either Panda or Liftarn and not actually myself has already been refuted, so give it a rest. I just pointed out the obvious flaw in Anthon Eff's comment. Or are you claiming that his counting (the paragraph quoted by me is the one that was live at the time) was correct?--Lensor 23:10, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's entertaining that Vision Thing likes to claim that his edits are compromise versions. [32] [33] Seeing how he's making his edits without discussion, that's obviously not true. VT has once again removed facts from the article in his so-called "compromise" version and that is not acceptable. –panda 16:56, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What facts? -- Vision Thing -- 16:59, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Try comparing the versions to find out what you've removed, again, for the Nth time. –panda 17:02, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If you are referring to lawsuits, they were removed for a good reason. -- Vision Thing -- 17:23, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Nope, I wasn't referring to that but that is text that several editors (not just Liftarn and I) have added back to the article so there is no good reason to remove it. –panda 17:31, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm ... I just noticed that Vision Thing still claims that Lensor is Liftarn, which is blatantly assuming bad faith. Personally I don't see how that's possible since they've both been online editing different articles at the same time. This article, and Wikipedia in general, doesn't need editors like that so please move on to elsewhere. –panda 17:31, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Bizarre comment". "please move on to elsewhere". wikilawyering. Why are you constantly battling everyone? If we can't work together on this article then we should all agree to stay away and let other people work on it. --Anthon.Eff 17:57, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I say it as I see it -- That's not WP:Wikilawyering, which I invite you to reread so that you understand what it actually means. Considering your comments and that you've also accused Lensor of being my sockpuppet [34], I'd say you're more interested in trying to discredit me than getting the article correct. If that's the case, then please move on to elsewhere as well. –panda 18:48, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

OK, if it's "commonly known as" then that's the name of it.

Why does that sentence still say "some 70 years after..." Can't someone count how many years it was? Why the vagueness?

Who "initiated" the prize? Where is this coming from? Is that the whole story? So, in other words, the Nobel Foundation didn't have anything to do with it? Or is there more to the story? Then why are we saying someone "initiated" something?

Why does it say it's "not a Nobel Prize?" Who are we to say that? There's some fine print somewhere in the documents but that's just some legalese. The King of Sweden never told anyone it's not a "nobel prize" and Alan Greenspan calls it the nobel prize in economics, no one complained. Obviously the nobel foundation wants to give out this prize as a nobel prize even if it's not technically one of the original prizes. Did Alfred Nobel ever say "and no one shall ever give a prize out other than the five I've specified?" No, he didn't. The name of the prize is fine, the controversy is fine to include, but the lead doesn't need to launch into a defensive rant about how wrong this is and how wrong everyone is to think of this like a "nobel prize"

Obviously, some people don't like the fact that that guy in India got the prize, so they want to now, retroactively, make the nobel prize in economics disappear. Some others don't like some others that got the prize, so they join in and try to make the nobel prize go away... they are on some kind of crusade. As if any of us knows what Alfred Nobel wanted or we know better than the Nobel Foundation or the Central Bank of Sweden or the King and all the nobel laureates.

I guess the bottom line is the time to argue was 40 years ago, when they made the new "nobel prize." People didn't argue then. It wasn't until they gave the prize to someone some group didn't like, then, all of a sudden "it's not a real nobel prize!" What a load of crap.

And to those who say "isn't that what an encyclopedia is supposed to do? NO! The purpose of the encyclopedia is not to change reality to something some group "likes better."SecretaryNotSure 02:52, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There is an official name, end of story. Or do you now also want to change the "Academy Award" to "Oscar"? The "some 70 years after" I suppose is the editors way of writing accessible prose, not that they cant count, if you want to change it to the exact number, please do so. Regarding the who "initiated" the prize, the precise information you want were in the version quoted by me above, but it was removed (who created the prize). If you want it back, join the club. The prize was created by the Svenska Riksbanken. The only part the Nobel Foundation played was to allow the prize to be presented with the Nobel Prizes and to administer some aspects of it. Who are saying it is not a Nobel Prize? What about the Nobel Foundation! They actually say "The Prize in Economics is not a Nobel Prize".[35] How more clear than that can you possibly get? On every single occation there is mention of the economics prize, it is always as "Prize in Economics" or similar, never ever "Nobel Prize in Economics". Besides, during the award ceremony, the economics laureates are given the "Svenska riksbankes pris.." from the King of Sweden, so yes, he does say it is not a Nobel Prize. I for one dont care about the "guy in India", I only care about getting the name right. The only ones who are on a crusade here are the ones who are desperate to pretend it is a Nobel Prize when it really isnt. Why is that one can ask. And it is not "all of a sudden" that it is not a Nobel Prize. It never ever was one. You are the one trying to change reality here, not me.--Lensor 08:32, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have to agree with SecretaryNotSure's point, that behind all of this "not a REAL Nobel prize" ranting there must lie a dislike of who receives the prize (otherwise, why this relentless crusade?). Since the prize has swept the political spectrum from as far left as Gunnar Myrdal to as far right as Friedrich Hayek, these folks must lie beyond the two extremes. My guess is that they are to the left of Gunnar Myrdal, since the sources they cite include Swedish Communist Party parliamentarians. The grounds for calling it not a Nobel prize are very weak: it was not specified in the will of the Swedish industrialist Alfred Nobel, so the money doesn't come from his estate. Otherwise it is just like any other Nobel prize: the Nobel Foundation takes care of arranging the ceremonies and public relations; the Swedish Academy of Sciences selects the committee that nominates candidates and ultimately votes on the winners; and the press and the public call the prize a Nobel Prize. Only in Sweden is the press careful to use the official name, but even in Sweden the public continues to call it the Nobel Prize in Economics. I, for one, am tired of this campaign to make the English WP conform to the position of the Swedish Communist Party.--Anthon.Eff 13:10, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Honestly.. Swedish Communist Party... This is just getting sillier by the minute. Since when did it become "communist" to want an encyclopedia to stick to the facts? It is not a "position" that it is not a Nobel Prize, it is an undeniable fact. Or do you dispute this fact? My "position" that it is not a Nobel Prize is not something I just made up, it is what the Nobel Foundation itself states, with no room for interpretation whatsoever[36]. Where is your support?--Lensor 13:20, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

HILARIOUS! People keep ignoring that this was not set up in Nobel's will

This is a prize set up by the Swedish central bank. It is not dispersed from Alfred Nobel's will.

"Unlike the physics, chemistry, medicine, literature, and peace prizes, a prize for economics was never requested by Alfred Nobel in his will. The award was established some 70 years after his death by the Bank of Sweden on its 300th anniversary in 1968."

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nobel_Prize_in_Economics&oldid=165444217#About_the_name

Isn't it funny how people (where are their IPs from?) keep wanting to remove this tiny little detail, as well as this one:

"The nickname "Nobel Prize in Economics" has been the issue of a lawsuit. In 2004, a book publisher was sued for stating that Amartya Sen was a Nobel Prize winner in the Bengali translation of a book by Sen. The petitioner claimed that "There is no Nobel Prize for economics. So it is wrong to describe Sen as a Nobel Prize winner."[41][42]"

LEt's look at the Nobel web site:

http://nobelprize.org/nomination/economics/nominators.html

"Nobel Prize in Physics
Nobel Prize in Chemistry
Nobel Prize in Medicine
Nobel Prize in Literature
Nobel Peace Prize
Prize in Economics

... The Prize in Economics is not a Nobel Prize. In 1968, Sveriges Riksbank (Sweden's central bank) instituted "The Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel", and it has since been awarded by the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences, Stockholm."

Oh wow! The Nobel Prize foundation itself...must be communist. Right? Or perhaps those insults of yours, calling people communist, is in fact simply trying to shut down debate and create your own reality.

Hmm...do you see something different about the last "prize"? I do. THERE'S NO "NOBEL" IN FRONT OF IT! So where does Wikipedia's interest lie, in promoting fact or revisionist history? 99.237.107.128 21:17, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Someone answer this simple question: "What is a Nobel Prize?" When you define that, then you can include "this is not a Nobel Prize." Just making that statement alone, out of context misleads the reader. Because by some definitions it is a nobel prize, and by another definition isn't not, it's...SecretaryNotSure 00:59, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Nobel Prize: A prize established by Alfred Nobel in his will.--victor falk 01:39, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

OR....

Nobel Prize: A prize established by the Nobel Foundation.--SecretaryNotSure 01:51, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

p.s. Someone criticized my version... demanding that there is a correct name of the prize, etc, and how this is "a known fact." etc. Duuuhhhhh.... did you read my version? It tells the reader the correct name of the prize and the "not a nobel prize" ... so what's the problem? I'll tell you, you don't like it because my version didn't "harp on it" as much as the version you like. You are the one who wants to change reality.SecretaryNotSure 01:24, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

p.p.s. Also, read the "history" at [37] The Central Bank made the donation to the Nobel Foundation, then Nobel Foundation then authorized this new nobel prize, which no one complained about till 4 decades later. Notice they said they decided then and there they weren't going to create any more new Nobel Prizes. The econmics prize was the last one they would add to the list of nobel prizes, in other words. There must have been some questioning then about if this was a good thing to do. But they did it -- like it or not! And then suddenly, four decades later there this legal dispute about the name and "real-ness" of the new nobel prize.

Note also how the Nobel Prizes didn't just spring into existence. There was what they euphemistically refer to as great disputes over the will.... who would administer it? All of that wasn't spelled out. Where does the authority of the "nobel foundation" come from? Alfred didn't say who was supposed to administer the prizes ... and there were all sorts of details left ambiguous. All he did was leave the funds in his estate and express his wish that some prizes be established -- somehow -- by some mysterious means. The actual nobel prizes were established by the Nobel Foundation, after the legislature of Sweden took some action that established the nobel foundation as the ones who do this. Otherwise, I could give out the nobel prizes in my basement. (why not? -- did Alfred Nobel ever say I can't?). All these things are complex issues.

These people who are on the crusade to pretend, now, after 40 years, that the nobel foundation "shouldn't have done this" are on their own political agenda. No, I'm sorry, but the issue is more complicated that simply pointing to a website that says "this is not a nobel prize" and then spinning that into a whole doctrine that "the nobel prize doesn't exist!" and all those who got this prize from the Nobel Foundation, well they didn't really - it was a fraud -- fraud I tell you! --- etc... just POV pushing.SecretaryNotSure 01:42, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I really doubt there's anyone here that doesn't know this. Please assume good faith. The issue if vernacular usage v. factual accuracy. The latter does not always win on Wikipedia. At any rate, the article should state, as it usually does, that it's not "really" a Nobel Prize, but that English language sources commonly call it one anyway. Cool Hand Luke 02:56, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The name of the prize is what it is, we aren't in the business of deciding how "real" something is. In the English speaking world the nobel prize in economics is called The Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel. We can't change that.SecretaryNotSure 03:08, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Precisely. We can't change the fact that it's rarely called that. We can note that's the official title, and we can note that many (most) reliable sources don't use it and prefer to call it the "Nobel Prize in Economics." The article can and must note these things. Cool Hand Luke 03:12, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

SecretaryNotSure; Your last edit is not acceptable. The sanctioning of it being a Nobel Prize aside, it also introduced other factually mistakes; The Nobel Foundation does NOT award the prize, the Svenska Riksbanken does, and the laureates are selected by the Prize Committee selected from the Swedish Royal Academy of Sciences. The Nobel Foundation has absolutely nothing to do with the awarding of the prize, apart from arranging the actual ceremony. The prize was NOT established by the Nobel Foundation (they just said OK to it and agreed to present it with the Nobel Prizes, for a fee). So even using your definition above, it is still not a Nobel Prize. Besides, it does not matter how you arbitrarily define a Nobel Prize. "Nobel Prize" is a trademark held by the Nobel Foundation, and they are the only ones who get to say that something is or isnt a Nobel Prize. There is just no way of escaping this fact. Any other sources claiming it to be a Nobel Prize are therefore by definition not reliable (most often they are just lazy, not bothering to write out the proper name). The Nobel Foundation did "add" the prize to the award ceremony, yes, but they never sanctioned the name "Nobel Prize", not even 40 years ago. So stop pretending that it is anything sudden about the proper name. And your quote from the Nobel Foundation above is wrong (hopefully not on purpose). It does not say they weren't going to create any more new Nobel Prizes it is The Board of the Nobel Foundation has subsequently decided that it will allow no further new prizes.. [38] Notice the distinct lack of "Nobel" there? Regarding your section about the "fuzzyness" of the Prizes to begin with, the will of Alfred Nobel was crystal clear. The controversy at the time was mainly about his heirs being upset that they didnt get any money (and the King being upset that the prizes were not limited to Scandinavians). Here is an English Translation of the will (I have bolded the relevant parts);

"The whole of my remaining realizable estate shall be dealt with in the following way: the capital, invested in safe securities by my executors, shall constitute a fund, the interest on which shall be annually distributed in the form of prizes to those who, during the preceding year, shall have conferred the greatest benefit on mankind. The said interest shall be divided into five equal parts, which shall be apportioned as follows: one part to the person who shall have made the most important discovery or invention within the field of physics; one part to the person who shall have made the most important chemical discovery or improvement; one part to the person who shall have made the most important discovery within the domain of physiology or medicine; one part to the person who shall have produced in the field of literature the most outstanding work in an ideal direction; and one part to the person who shall have done the most or the best work for fraternity between nations, for the abolition or reduction of standing armies and for the holding and promotion of peace congresses. The prizes for physics and chemistry shall be awarded by the Swedish Academy of Sciences; that for physiology or medical works by the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm; that for literature by the Academy in Stockholm, and that for champions of peace by a committee of five persons to be elected by the Norwegian Storting. It is my express wish that in awarding the prizes no consideration be given to the nationality of the candidates, but that the most worthy shall receive the prize, whether he be Scandinavian or not."

You see, Nobel DID say that is was supposed to be a fund to distribute the prizes (ie the Nobel Foundation), he DID say exactly who were to award the prizes (So, no, you cant give a "Nobel Prize" out of your basement). And he DID say how many prizes there were to be (five). The only thing in his will that is not kept, is that nowadays it is not the benefit from the previous year only, as that is impossible to adhere to.--Lensor 08:57, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Those are great arguments. And if we were the law making body of Sweden charged with interpreting the will and implimenting it that would be great, but we're not. I'm not going to pretend to have knowledge of what the problems were in interpreting the will.

The only parts I'd quibble with is that you sort of diminish the role of the Nobel Foundation, in two ways. Yes, they don't give out the prizes, but they do administer the thing. The exact body that selects the prizes is different than the Nobel Foundation, that much we know for sure. The other part you're diminishing is that, for some reason, the Nobel Foundation did establish this "prize in economic sciences." We can argue that it was that huge wad of cash from the Bank of Sweden that made the Nobel Foundation people think "gee, that idea they have to establish a new prize isn't that crazy after all... just look at all that cash..." But at the end of the day, it's the Nobel Foundation that did it, for whatever reason. To quibble with that is like saying some group lobbied congress and congress passed a law -- and then argue that congress didn't really pass that law, they only did it because that group lobbied them and gave them money. You're probably right, the Nobel Foundation probably was swayed by the huge wad o'cash that flew their way, but, they still did it. (and I think that's pretty clear to the reader) That's why I say it's not really fair to say "it was really established by the Bank of Sweden" -- in our minds the bank of sweden did it, but legally and in reality, it was the foundation because they are the only ones who could do it. After all, the foundation could have said no, they but they choose to make the new ~~nobelesque~~ prize.

Actually, are some things I like about the lattest stab at how to phrase it, but it's not perfect. I think we're moving toward some kind of way of telling this interesting story without perpetuating ignorance of how this prize became what it is, whatever it is, and also without pushing a pov that snarks at the world by telling them this isn't a real prize, and the people who won this prize are frauds because there is no such thing, etc.SecretaryNotSure 11:12, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You are right that it is not up to the Wikipedia to interpret the will (I included the section above just because you said there was fuzziness, which I dont agree with). Anyways, is the current version more or less acceptable? (I am talking about the revision by me, not the one by User:Liftarn. Even though that version is even more correct, I suppose it will never be agreed upon) It does say that the Nobel Foundation administers the prize, and even though they dont administer it to 100%, it is still an acceptable approximation. I dont think it should say that the foundation awards the prize, because they dont. Now it just says that it "is awarded", and then further down it is detailed exactly how the awarding process works. I still dont think it should say that the Nobel Foundation "established" the prize, as that is misleading and implies that the Nobel Foundation somehow out of the blue chose to "add" a prize. Not to mention that the Nobel Foundation webpage actually states that it was Sveriges Riksbank who "established" the prize. [39]. I really dont want to diminish the honor of those awarded the prize (despite Anthon.Eff's snide communist remark above), but at the same time I think the article should be factually correct. It is doing noone any favours to be unclear about the name, nature or origin of the prize.--Lensor 11:36, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Add: I made two suggestions now. The first was revisions to SecretaryNotSure's version (removing some factual flaws), the other revisions to Liftarn's version (softening up the tone a bit). Both are acceptable to me.--Lensor 12:23, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I just noticed something in the quotation from the will: shall be annually distributed in the form of prizes to those who, during the preceding year, shall have conferred the greatest benefit on mankind. Interesting, as none of the prizes is currently conferred to contributions from the previous year. So, according to the people who insist on Nobel's will as definitory for the prizes, there is no Nobel Prize! AdamSmithee 13:16, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You just noticed this? It has been like that since...forever. The exact timing of the awarding of the prizes is an extremely minor issue compared to which prizes are actually in the will to begin with. It is not possible to within one year know which discoveries will be of the most benefit to mankind (with the possible exeption of Peace, which actually often is awarded very close to the "deed"). It is possible to award the prizes in the subjects specified by the will. See the difference?--Lensor 13:31, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The most disturbing fact about this thread is that no one appears to have understood that it is trolling. The title and language used is a clear giveaway. This is going around in circles and you all just grabbed the bait from some useless ÏP troll who just wanted to cause more trouble. EconomicsGuy 13:24, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Not since forever, since 1895 :) Anyway, it's still a double standard, deciding ad hoc that some parts of the will are debatable and others are not. Anyway, I'll keep trying to stay away from the discussion (though it's not easy), as IMO not only the thread, but the whole discussion is in part ignited by trolling AdamSmithee 13:44, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Heh, arent you the clever one ;). The thing is, it is not up to us here at Wikipedia to decide which parts of the will are "debatable", that decision has already been made in accordance with Swedish law by the Nobel Foundation, using the rationale I outlined above. They have already decided that it is within the bounds of the law to give the prize several years after the discovery (to be able to actually identify the important discoveries), and that it is not within the bounds of the law to add more prizes called "Nobel Prize in X". I agree that trolls are igniting the discussion needlessly, but as long as there is no consensus I dont see how not to continue the discussion.--Lensor 13:55, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So we say that they disfavor the common English term "Nobel Prize in Economics." What's the problem here? Cool Hand Luke 14:53, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've been trying to figure out the answer to that question for quite some time now. I think it all boils down to a) arguing for the sake of arguing and b) unwillingness to just accept the most simple and easy to source solution which is the one you just mentioned. EconomicsGuy 15:09, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It is not quite as simple as that. The first problem is that there are still editors who claim that the prize is a Nobel Prize, despite a mountain of evidence to the contrary. This is also why there is still a wild discussion, but that is almost besides the point of the article itself. The most important problem here is how to be factually correct in the article without "belittling" the laureates. It is a great honor to get the prize, no matter the name, and the article should reflect this. I actually think the current version does this quite well.--Lensor 15:31, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Right. That was my initial understanding of the situation before this became very confusing. Like you say, all evidence/reliable sources supports the fact that officially it isn't a Nobel prize. As long as we do not add our own belittling, politically motivated OR I don't think that's a problem because the table with all the different names it has been given pretty much speaks for itself. What I object to is using the article as a coatrack by turning it into an attack against neo-classical economics. That's actually my main concern here. EconomicsGuy 16:01, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Definition of Nobel Prize

From the Nobel Foundation's website:[40]

Question: Sir, Why this Prize is not recognized as Nobel Prize in Economics? Does the Committee treat Economics as a field of basic science as they treat Physics, Chemistry and Medicine?

Answer: The Nobel Prizes are only those that are specifically mentioned in Alfred Nobel's will (Physics, Chemistry, Physiology or Medicine, Literature and Peace). The Economics Prize came much later and is a prize in memory of Alfred Nobel. In all relevant respects the committee understands and treats economics as a field of science.

Thus, the Nobel Prizes are only the 5 mentioned in Alfred Nobel's will and the prize in economic is not a Nobel Prize. Not to mention that the Nobel Foundation already has stated elsewhere that it is not a Nobel Prize, even though some editors here still want to deny this fact. –panda 14:58, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Removed facts

Vision Thing has been removing facts from this article:

removed Sveriges Riksbank (the Bank of Sweden) pays the Nobel Foundation to administrate the prize, a statement that is supported by a citation and directly from the statues for the prize – [41] [42] [43] [44] [45]
removed the official Swedish name of the prize: Sveriges riksbanks pris i ekonomisk vetenskap till Alfred Nobels minne – [46] [47] [48]
removed a multitude of other facts in Vision Thing's last major revision.

Please stop removing facts! –panda 18:50, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Bank of Sweden doesn't pay the Nobel Foundation to administrate the prize. It pays their administrative expenses. There is a difference.
You are free to add Swedish name of the prize in the names section with the rest of them. -- Vision Thing -- 20:27, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And the difference that you are claiming is...? –panda 21:05, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Your version implies that Nobel Foundation was bought off and that it receives payment beyond expenses for administering. -- Vision Thing -- 17:30, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The text only states that Sveriges Riksbank/the Bank of Sweden pays the Nobel Foundation to administrate the prize. How in the world did you arrive at such a ludicrous claim??? That's the most ridiculous piece of WP:OR that I've seen yet -- talk about assuming bad faith. Perhaps you should consider a long vacation from this article as your comment shows that you're obviously having difficulties separating fact from fiction. –panda 17:43, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

WP:OR doesn't apply to talk pages. What does apply to talk pages is WP:NPA.-- Vision Thing -- 17:51, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Original research is original research, regardless of where it is written. Stating that ludicrous comments are ludicrous is not a violation of WP:NPA, which you may wish to read. Do everyone a favor and take a vacation from this article. –panda 18:11, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Just a note; the native translation of a prize is usually included in the opening paragraph, it is not something Panda just made up specifically for this prize. I really don't see why Vision Thing is so dead set against including it in this case. --Lensor 10:26, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Do you know Swedish name of Nobel Prize in Economics? -- Vision Thing -- 17:30, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Swedish name of the prize is Sveriges riksbanks pris i ekonomisk vetenskap till Alfred Nobels minne. Also, what's your reason for removing so many facts from the article again, for the Nth time? –panda 17:43, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Clarifications to Nobel's will

This should really go in the Noble Prize article but since AdamSmithee commented about it here,[49] [50] I'm writing the reply here. Before the Nobel Foundation could be founded, certain "clarifications" were made, according to "Nobel: The Man and His Prizes" (relevant text is on pp 69-70 of the 3rd edition). Some of these clarifications were (copied from the Nobel Foundation statues, Objects of the Foundation [51]; emphasis mine):

§ 2.

The "Academy in Stockholm," mentioned in the will, shall refer to the Swedish Academy.

The term "literature" shall comprise not only belles-lettres but also other writings which, by virtue of their form and style, possess literary value.

The duties devolving upon Karolinska Institutet under the will shall be performed by the Nobel Assembly of Karolinska Institutet.

The provision in the will that the annual award of prizes shall be intended for works "during the preceding year" should be understood in the sense that the awards shall be made for the most recent achievements in the fields of culture referred to in the will and for older works only if their significance has not become apparent until recently.

The rest of the clarifications are in the statues. If you're interested in this topic, I would recommend reading the statues or "Nobel: The Man and His Prizes". –panda 14:50, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Anthon.Eff's edit summary

Anthon.Eff wrote in an edit summary on 18:31, 3 November 2007: "There was no consensus for the change in introduction, despite extensive talk page discussion". There was no consensus for the current introduction so your edit summary doesn't say anything useful nor explain your revert. Lack of consensus is not a valid reason for removing cited text. If you simply don't like the edit, that's not a valid reason to remove it since it contained several references. What's your reason now for removing the cited text? While I'm at it, Vision Thing: what's your reason for removing the cited text? –panda 18:48, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You are completely ignoring WP:NPOV. A lot of people do consider this prize a real Nobel Prize and in your edits you are ignoring this. -- Vision Thing -- 19:09, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Actually I'm not ignoring WP:NPOV. The facts state that it is not a Noble Prize, and I'm simply adding facts to the article. Also your comment is simply a red herring -- you still haven't explain why you removed cited text. I'll also add that the text I added came directly from articles published by economists, not me. –panda 19:19, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Panda, the current version sufficiently states that in some respects the prize is not like the other Nobel prizes. You wish to belabor that point to absurd lengths in the article, as if the only important point about the prize is that it is illegitimate. Now why are you doing that? --Anthon.Eff 19:32, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Stating that the prize is "mistakenly referred to as the "Nobel Prize in economics"" is a POV. Whether it is a mistake to refer to this prize as a "Nobel Prize" is a judgment that should be left to the readers. -- Vision Thing -- 19:33, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The text VT quoted came directly from one of the references, written by an economist, and is not a POV since the prize is not a Nobel Prize. It is, however, a POV to state "Technically it is not a Nobel Prize" as the reference only states "it is not a Nobel Prize." There is simply no reason to include the word "technically". Anyway, I changed more than just that one part of the text so your accusation is once again a red herring for not explaining why you reverted the text. –panda 19:44, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Since Nobel Foundation is saying that this is not a Nobel Prize, de jure it is not. But since it is awarded in accordance with the principles of Nobel Prizes, by the same institutions and at the same ceremony, de facto it is a Nobel Prize and many sources classify it as such. So it is a POV to say it is mistakenly called "Nobel Prize". If you want, you can add that Auke R Leen thinks that "Bank of Sweden Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel" is "mistakenly referred to as the "Nobel prize in economics"" latter in the body of the article. To what other "facts" are you referring to? -- Vision Thing -- 22:32, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Many sources may classify it as a Nobel Prize but that does not make it a Nobel Prize. You're confusing a verifiable definition of the prize with urban legends and misconceptions. We can certainly state that many believe it is a Nobel Prize although it isn't one. Remember that the Nobel Prize is a trademark of the Nobel Foundation and they have clearly stated that "The Prize in Economics is not a Nobel Prize." It is not up to you, me, or anyone else (other than the Nobel Foundation) to redefine what is a Nobel Prize. See below for a reply to your other comment. Also, a reminder that you haven't explained why you removed the cited text, copied below for your convenience. –panda 23:15, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is based on verifiability, not truth. If you keep removing "Technically" I will start adding reliable sources which say that this is a Nobel Prize. I created this version of the introduction as a compromise between two sides, and it's where I draw a line. -- Vision Thing -- 17:06, 5 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Stating "I created this version of the introduction as a compromise between two sides, and it's where I draw a line." is a sign of WP:OWNERSHIP. If you can't work with other editors on the text in this article, then please don't work on this article at all. I believe this is your third warning about WP:OWNERSHIP in relation to the Noble Prize and Nobel Prize in Economics articles. –panda 18:00, 5 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You are the one who is showing signs of WP:OWN since you are refusing all compromises. -- Vision Thing -- 22:50, 5 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Four different editors have removed "technically" from the text and you or Anthon.Eff kept re-adding it.
Three different editors opposed using the word "commonly" in the article and removed it while you or Anthon.Eff kept re-adding it.
Another editor has already mentioned tag-teaming.
All of our verifiable sources should be allowed in the text, but you seem to only allow your sources in the text or those that you approve of in the text.
Primarily you, but also Anthon.Eff, tend to revert my edits without explanation (in your case) or by claiming "There was no consensus for the change in introduction, despite extensive talk page discussion" (in Anthon.Eff's case). I shouldn't have to get your or Anthon.Eff's permission to make changes to the text.

All of those are signs of WP:OWN. Is no one else allowed to make changes to the intro except for those who subscribe to your POV?

I actually haven't edited the text during the latest edit war. I've also compromised by saying that if you want to keep "common" in the article, then you should also include "mislabelled" and "mistakenly referred to" since they're all verifiable. Otherwise remove all three of them. I've also stated that you can go ahead and add more sources to the article, which you did. So I obviously am not showing signs of WP:OWN, and your accusation is WP:WL.

If you haven't read WP:OWN, please do so before claiming otherwise. –panda 01:29, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I showed more than my share of readiness to compromise when I agreed to change introduction in such way to include a line "it is not a Nobel Prize". That is not mentioned in any articles on this prize and even Nobel Foundation doesn't mention it in its main article. So this version of article is already giving undue weight to that "fact" by mentioning it in the lead. Your insistence to add "mislabeled" or "mistakenly referred to" to that is clear example of unwillingness to compromise and POV pushing. -- Vision Thing -- 18:20, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Actually I'm not POV pushing since I'm not insisting that "mislabelled" or "mistakenly referred to" have to be in the text. I've stated that either all 3 verifiable claims should be in the text or none of them should be. So your accusation is another example of WP:WL. OTOH, you are insisting that they should not be in the text -- that is POV pushing. It's not a compromise to include the text "it is not a Nobel Prize". That is a basic fact that describes the prize and should be included in the introduction, along with the name of the prize. –panda 19:32, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If you feel so compelled, add sources that claim it is a Nobel Prize. We can verify that many claim it is a Nobel Prize. We can also verify that the Nobel Foundation states that it isn't. Once again, the Nobel Foundation are the ones who can definitely state if it is a Nobel Prize or not. The text would only end up as something like: "Although it is often referred to as the "Nobel Prize in economics"[8][9] and called a Nobel Prize[your refs], it is not a Nobel Prize[4] but a "prize in memory of Alfred Nobel".[5]" –panda 18:00, 5 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Done. -- Vision Thing -- 23:02, 5 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"universally perceived as a Nobel Prize"? That's just being pointy. Also, that's easy to disprove. We only need one example to show that it is not universally perceived as a Nobel Prize and we have one -- the Nobel Foundation states it is not a Nobel Prize. Q.E.D. –panda 01:29, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Source (How to Win the Nobel Prize: An Unexpected Life in Science – a book about Nobel Prizes) says it is universally perceived as a Nobel Prize. -- Vision Thing -- 18:21, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've already disproved that statement, thus it's obviously an unreliable source for that statement. So please stop re-adding it. Doing so is another example of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT, which another editor has already mentioned. –panda 19:32, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Besides not explaining the reason for reverting cited text, Anthon.Eff is now that claiming: [52]

"commonly" is much more accurate than "sometimes". "Technically" conveys the sense in which it is not a NP. This version is more NPOV."

Including the word "technically" is not NPOV -- it's an unnecessary descriptor that misrepresents the citation and implies that the prize can still be a Nobel Prize. So it does neither of the claims: it neither convey the sense that it is not a Nobel Prize nor that it is NPOV. Also, its interesting how Anthon.Eff insists on accuracy for the descriptor of "Nobel Prize in Economics" ("common" vs "sometimes") but insists on a less accurate text for when it is not a Nobel Prize. Double standards or POV pushing? I would argue that the article should be accurate throughout, not only when it benefits someone's personal opinion. –panda 01:35, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Panda, one of your own sources says that this prize is commonly called Nobel Prize ([53] at the end of the article). -- Vision Thing -- 22:34, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the text states that the prize is commonly called a Nobel Prize, but not the Nobel Prize in Economics:

The prize was created (and funded) by the Swedish central bank and has been progressively confused with the regular Nobel set up by Alfred Nobel; it is now mislabelled the “Nobel Prize for economics”.

and

It will be dying with us, unless we discredit that absurd Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel commonly called the “Nobel Prize”.

Anyway, I also have references stating that the prize is mislabelled and mistakenly referred to as the "Nobel Prize in Economics". So I see no reason why those qualifiers can't be added to the same sentence if you insist on keeping "common" in the article. Either we should use all of the qualifiers or none, since that would be the most NPOV. –panda 23:15, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That it's mistake to call it a Nobel Prize is a value judgment. To say that it's commonly called Nobel Prize is not a value judgment. -- Vision Thing -- 17:10, 5 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's your personal opinion to claim that one is a value judgment while the other isn't. Both are verifiable and if you insist on keeping one, then the others should also be included as that would be the most NPOV version of the text. –panda 18:00, 5 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Dealing with you panda is like dealing with someone with a very strange set of ontological beliefs. The prize is like a Nobel prize in all characteristics except one (I think I said this before). Therefore it is technically not a Nobel prize. I think my edit summary was concise and accurate. Your rebuttal is not concise. It's too long to read and doesn't make sense. I can see however that you agree that "common" is more accurate than "sometimes". So we are left with disagreement on "technically." Try being more concise in your next explanation. --Anthon.Eff 17:47, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If you don't want to read other's comments, then please don't participate at all in this article. I haven't agreed that common is more accurate, I've only stated what you claimed it was. Also, your comment that "The prize is like a Nobel prize in all characteristics except one" is like saying that all Elvis impersonators must be Elvis since they are like Elvis in all characteristics except one (they're not Elvis). You're applying the duck test to something that is well-defined. Try not to mix "ontological beliefs" with well-defined facts. I've already objected to including "technically" in the article and see that you've replaced it again -- it is still a misrepresentation of the citation and the well-defined fact that it is simply not a Nobel Prize. Anyway, you haven't explained why you removed cited text, included below for your convenience. So just a reminder that I'm still waiting for your reply. –panda 19:40, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe herein lies our difficulty, panda, that you confuse your ontological beliefs for "well-defined facts." And you see, it is hard to figure out what you are saying: now it turns out that you don't think "commonly" is more accurate! --Anthon.Eff 20:04, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Panda and I have reverted. Commonly is a weasel word and is not supported by the sources. The criteria for inclusion is verifiability not truth. We can verify that it isn't a Nobel prize, we can verify what the official name is, we can verify what the recepients have called it and we can verify that it has been called a Nobel prize. What we cannot verify is the claim that it is commonly reffered to as the Nobel prize. Also, you are getting very close to 3RR and appear to be tag team reverting so protection might be ther next logical step here. EconomicsGuy 20:07, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The prize isn't commonly called Nobel Prize in Economics? Are you serious? Here is a table introduced by another editor in a discussion on Template talk:Nobel Prize in Economics. I think you can see that sometimes is incorrect--the prize is almost always called Nobel Prize in Economics. --Anthon.Eff 20:18, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

name	google.com	google.co.uk "in UK"
"Prize in Economics" includes all of "Nobel Prize in Economics"	578,000	46,300
"Nobel Prize in Economics" includes all instances of "Nobel Prize in economics"	512,000	43,200
"Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences"	42,000	540
"Bank of Sweden Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel"	39,700	343
"Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel"	32,200	185
"Nobel Memorial Prize in Economics"	25,300	816
"Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Science"	22,900	318

Table introduced by Cool Hand Luke 14:22, 23 October 2007 (UTC) in Template talk:Nobel Prize in Economics[reply]

What I said was that the criteria for inclusion is verifiability, not truth per WP:V. Google is by no stretch of the word a reliable source. What is it about this dispute and people who still haven't read WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. EconomicsGuy 20:25, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If you are tired of this EconGuy, imagine the rest of us, who have been at it long before you ever showed up! But back to the gist of your revert: that sometimes is better than commonly. I could perhaps offer evidence that everyone I know, in every university that I've worked or studied, calls it the Nobel Prize in Economics. But that would be anecdote. So I offer a measure of the number of times it is called Nobel Prize in Economics on web pages. If such a datum isn't a verifiable measure of whether commonly is the correct qualifier, then it is hard to imagine what datum would work. The prize is almost always called Nobel Prize in Economics, especially outside Sweden. To use the word sometimes suggests that it is called Nobel Prize in Economics by a few people, once in a while. Commonly is more accurate, and I believe Ghits verifies that. Capiche? --Anthon.Eff 21:14, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Here is the entire text that Vision Thing and Anthon.Eff removed on 3 November 2007 without explaining why:

The Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel (Swedish: Sveriges riksbanks pris i ekonomisk vetenskap till Alfred Nobels minne) is a prize "awarded annually to a person who has written a work on economic sciences of the eminent significance expressed in the will of Alfred Nobel drawn up on November 27, 1895."^[8] The prize is generally considered the most prestigious honor in economics along with the John Bates Clark Medal for American economists. Although it is often mistakenly referred to as the "Nobel Prize in economics"^[9] or the "Nobel Prize for economics",^[10] it is not a Nobel Prize,^[11] but a "prize in memory of Alfred Nobel".^[12]

The prize was instituted by Sveriges Riksbank (the central bank of Sweden) on its 300th anniversary in 1968, and first awarded in 1969. The Economics Laureates are selected by the Prize Committee of the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences, and they receive their diploma and gold medal from the King of Sweden at the prize award ceremony in Stockholm on December 10, with the Nobel Laureates in physics, chemistry, physiology or medicine, and literature. Sveriges Riksbank pays the Nobel Foundation to administrate aspects of the prize and provides the cash award.^[8]

Comments? –panda 15:06, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Personally I think Panda's version is more accurate than the current one. At the very least the Swedish name should be present somewhere on the page (it is not at the moment). I would however make a couple of changes:

Remove the section about Alfred Nobel's Will, as it just clutters the text without actually adding any vital information (could be re-added to the "Award Process" for the interested).
Remove "mistakenly". IMO it is enough to just clarify that the prize is often called a Nobel Prize but really isnt one, and leave it at that. I however think that "often" is a better and more neutral term that both "commonly" (implying that most people call it a Nobel Prize) as well as "sometimes" (implying that most people dont)
Remove the mention of "Nobel Prize for Economics", as it feels redundant (the ref can still be used though).
Change that the prize was "established" by the Bank, not "instituted", as this is the wording the Nobel Foundation uses [54].
Change the wording of the administative payment. I would rather use a wording that the Bank reimburses the Foundation. To say that they pay them is too prone to interpretation. (As demonstrated by Vision Thing above).

Hence, my suggestion is the following:

"The Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel (Swedish: Sveriges riksbanks pris i ekonomisk vetenskap till Alfred Nobels minne) is awarded each year for outstanding intellectual contributions in the field of economics. The prize is generally considered the most prestigious honor in economics along with the John Bates Clark Medal for American economists. Although it is often referred to as the "Nobel Prize in economics"^[13]^[14] it is not a Nobel Prize,^[11] but a "prize in memory of Alfred Nobel".^[12]

The prize was established by Sveriges Riksbank (the central bank of Sweden) on its 300th anniversary in 1968, and first awarded in 1969. The Economics Laureates are selected by the Prize Committee of the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences, and they receive their diploma and gold medal from the King of Sweden at the prize award ceremony in Stockholm on December 10, with the Nobel Laureates in physics, chemistry, physiology or medicine, and literature. Sveriges Riksbank reimburses the Nobel Foundation for administration expenses for the prize and provides the cash award.^[8]"

--Lensor 09:37, 5 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think Lensor's suggestion is quite good. Some additional comments:

re: "outstanding intellectual contributions" – "intellectual" should not be included and, before everyone assumes the wrong thing, here's why:

The Nobel Prizes are not awarded for an "intellectual" contribution, but instead the prizes "shall have conferred the greatest benefit on mankind."[55] In the shortest form, it is for "outstanding achievements" in xxx.[56] It may often happen to be an intellectual contribution, but that was not the intent of the prizes and is an interpretation made by someone else that can lead to other misinterpretations...
...It would imply that the prize is related to someone's intelligence and claims whether or not someone's contribution has intellectual value. When others criticize certain laureates, some mistakenly may believe that the criticisms are related to a laureate's intelligence or the contribution's intellectual worthiness. The criticisms largely have to do with how this person's work has contributed to the benefit of mankind, not whether or not their work is intellectual and certainly never about their intelligence.
The reason why I didn't just remove the word the first time was because I know that certain editors here would have automatically assumed that panda thinks that economists are not intellectual or intelligent. This has nothing to do with the case. And yes, I would remove "intellectual" from any of the Nobel Prize articles if it were included as a reason for any of the Nobel Prizes.

re: "pays for" and "reimburses" – Alternative suggestion below. Reimburse isn't the best word since the bank has a fixed amount they pay the Foundation each year (currently an annual amount of 6.5 million SEK + 1 million SEK for including info about the econ prize in the NF's internet museum [57]), and if the costs exceed the amount paid, the Foundation would not be reimbursed for the excess. Below is the relevant text from Sveriges Riksbank (Framställning till riksdagen, 2006/07: RB1, Årsredovisning för Sveriges riksbank för räkenskapsåret 2006):

I posten ekonomipris ingår prissumman om 10 miljoner kronor samt administrationskostnader för detta pris om 6,5 miljoner kronor. Dessutom har bidrag givits till det interaktiva Internetmuseum som Nobelstiftelsen byggt upp. Bidraget avser täckande av kostnaden för information om ekonomipriset. Bidraget ska enligt avtal utbetalas årligen med 1 miljon kronor till och med 2008.

re: "established" vs "instituted" – the Nobel Foundation uses both terms and here they mean the same thing. Established is the more normal word so I agree that the text should use "established".
I just noticed we forgot to include the current amount of the award so I'll add that.

So here's another version:

The Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel (Swedish: Sveriges riksbanks pris i ekonomisk vetenskap till Alfred Nobels minne) is awarded each year for outstanding contributions in the field of economics that "have conferred the greatest benefit on mankind."[58]. The prize is generally considered the most prestigious honor in economics along with the John Bates Clark Medal for American economists. Although it is often referred to as the "Nobel Prize in economics"^[15]^[16] it is not a Nobel Prize,^[11] but a "prize in memory of Alfred Nobel".^[12]

The prize was established by Sveriges Riksbank (the central bank of Sweden) on its 300th anniversary in 1968, and first awarded in 1969. The Economics Laureates are selected by the Prize Committee of the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences, and they receive their diploma and gold medal from the King of Sweden at the prize award ceremony in Stockholm on December 10, with the Nobel Laureates in physics, chemistry, physiology or medicine, and literature. Sveriges Riksbank pays for the administrative expenses for the prize incurred by the Nobel Foundation and for the cash award,^[8] which has been 10 million Swedish kronor (Oct 2007: approximately 1 million Euro) since 2001.^[17]

–panda 16:33, 5 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep in mind that introduction should be a concise overview of the article, and not the only place to mention certain things. -- Vision Thing -- 17:08, 5 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Quoting from WP:LEAD:

The lead should be capable of standing alone as a concise overview of the article, establishing context, summarizing the most important points, explaining why the subject is interesting or notable, and briefly describing its notable controversies, if there are any. The emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic according to reliable, published sources. The lead should not "tease" the reader by hinting at but not explaining important facts that will appear later in the article. It should contain up to four paragraphs, should be carefully sourced as appropriate, and should be written in a clear, accessible style so as to invite a reading of the full article.

So it's acceptable to have up to four paragraphs, and my example is only 2 paragraphs so its far from not being concise. And if you want to be concise, then "technically" shouldn't be included as it makes the text less concise.

Anyway, I'll remind you that you still haven't explained why you removed cited text from the article. If your reason was because the lead should be concise, then my text was far from not being concise according to WP:LEAD, and your reason is not a valid reason. –panda 18:00, 5 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You should have read it beyond introduction. "The appropriate length of the lead section depends on the total length of the article." For articles less than 15000 characters suggested length of the lead section is one or two paragraphs. Without tables, body of this article has less than 6000 characters. So, one paragraph is more than enough. -- Vision Thing -- 22:48, 5 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You said it yourself, "one or two paragraphs". So there's nothing wrong with two paragraphs. The text can also be combined into one paragraph by simply removing the carriage return, which is how it was previously. The only reason why this article is so short is because you seem to revert everything I add to the article, regardless of whether or not it is cited. Which reminds me that you still haven't explained why you removed cited text. –panda 01:29, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Just a note, Panda's version is actually in perfect range compared to those of the Nobel Prizes (whereas the current one is really small and seem "empty" in comparison. If anything, that conveys the feeling that the Prize in economics is "less worth"):

Nobel Prize in Chemistry - 1035 characters including spaces
Nobel Prize in Literature - 2525 (heh, big surprise that this one is the longest)
Nobel Peace Prize - 1539
Nobel Prize in Physics - 1016
Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine - 2103
Nobel Prize - 1405
The Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel (current version) -829
The Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel (Panda's version)- 1261

Also note, that currently the Prize in Economics is the ONLY one without the Swedish name in the lead paragraph.--Lensor 09:03, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I also noticed that another reference was removed from the text in Vision Thing's latest version: ^[12] (the text that states that the prize is "a prize in memory of Alfred Nobel.") –panda 17:41, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Vision Thing: Do I really need to comment on you taking other people's text and adding it to the article as if it were your own vs discussing the above text? Your behavior only demonstrates that you think you are the only one who can decide what does and doesn't go into the introduction, a sign of WP:OWN. Ignoring my question about why you removed cited text (and another reference) violates WP:EQ and is another sign of WP:OWN, which states "Ownership examples: The discussion can take many forms; it may be purely negative, consisting of threats and insults, often avoiding the topic of the revert altogether." (my emphasis) –panda 19:32, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The current version, although inprecise, is still acceptable and factually more or less correct. The changes Vision Thing just tried to pass off (again), are not. For one, to claim that it is universally perceived as a Nobel Prize is just plain wrong and blatant POV-pushing. For something to to be universally perceived as anything, everyone has to agree on it. One single person disagreeing, and it is no longer "universally". And we all know it is way more than one person disagreeing. Also, to claim that it really is a Nobel Prize that is just "officially referred" to as "The Svenska Riksbankens prize.." is also factually wrong and just pushing this editors POV. He tried to pass off WP:MOS#First_sentences as reason for this change. However, the guideline (not policy mind you) states, as the two very first words: "If possible". If Vision Thing finds it impossible to adhere to the guideline without introducing his own personal POV-pushing, then clearly the first sentense should not be altered.--Lensor 09:43, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is the use of weasel words like "often" (how often?), "generally considered" (by who?), "often perceived" (how often? by who?). // Liftarn

In this case most "weasel" words are attributed to cited sources (in which case it is OK to include them according to WP:WEASEL. It is also stated that "uncontroversial" weasel words can be included for brevity and clarity. I dont think it is controversial to state that it is considered an honor to get this prize, or that a lot of people call it a Nobel Prize (that is after all the entire premise for calling the article "Nobel Prize in Economics" to begin with). However, some cleanup is probably in order.--Lensor 12:48, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

According to Merriam-Webster dictionary one of the meanings of universally is "embracing a major part or the greatest portion". -- Vision Thing -- 20:58, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The use of "universal" does imply that everyone agrees, as that is the main definition of the word. If you dont mean to imply that everyone agrees, another word than "universial" that carries less risk of implying things can just as easily be used. Full definition of "universial" (using your dictionary), including the main definition:

1: including or covering all or a whole collectively or distributively without limit or exception; especially : available equitably to all members of a society <universal health coverage>
2 a: present or occurring everywhere b: existent or operative everywhere or under all conditions <universal cultural patterns>
3 a: embracing a major part or the greatest portion (as of humankind) <a universal state> <universal practices> b: comprehensively broad and versatile <a universal genius>
4 a: affirming or denying something of all members of a class or of all values of a variable b: denoting every member of a class <a universal term>
5: adapted or adjustable to meet varied requirements (as of use, shape, or size) <a universal gear cutter> <a universal remote control>

--Lensor 09:28, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So, so far the proposed introduction has been worked out to the following (plus some minor changes I just made to the last sentence, another ref, and minor technical modifications to the references):

The Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel (Swedish: Sveriges riksbanks pris i ekonomisk vetenskap till Alfred Nobels minne) is awarded each year for outstanding contributions in the field of economics that "have conferred the greatest benefit on mankind."[59]. The prize is generally considered the most prestigious honor in economics along with the John Bates Clark Medal for American economists. Although it is often referred to as the "Nobel Prize in economics"^[18]^[19] it is not a Nobel Prize,^[11]^[20] but a "prize in memory of Alfred Nobel".^[12]

The prize was established by Sveriges Riksbank (the central bank of Sweden) on its 300th anniversary in 1968, and first awarded in 1969. The Economics Laureates are selected by the Prize Committee of the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences, and they receive their diploma and gold medal from the King of Sweden at the prize award ceremony in Stockholm on December 10, with the Nobel Laureates in physics, chemistry, physiology or medicine, and literature. Sveriges Riksbank pays for the cash award,^[8] which has been 10 million Swedish kronor (Oct 2007: approximately 1 million Euro) since 2001,^[17] and the Nobel Foundation's administrative expenses associated with the prize.^[8]

Any additional comments? –panda 16:07, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Should probably include the reference that it was the bank who established the prize, as User:SecretaryNotSure at least twice has edited in that it was established by the Nobel Foundation (without citing any source of course).--Lensor 16:51, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Several references are now included:

The Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel (Swedish: Sveriges riksbanks pris i ekonomisk vetenskap till Alfred Nobels minne) is awarded each year for outstanding contributions in the field of economics that "have conferred the greatest benefit on mankind."^[21] The prize is generally considered the most prestigious honor in economics along with the John Bates Clark Medal for American economists. Although it is often referred to as the "Nobel Prize in economics"^[18]^[19] it is not a Nobel Prize,^[11]^[20] but a "prize in memory of Alfred Nobel".^[12]

The prize was established by Sveriges Riksbank (the central bank of Sweden) on its 300th anniversary in 1968, and first awarded in 1969.^[22]^[23]^[24] The Economics Laureates are selected by the Prize Committee of the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences,^[8] and they receive their diploma and gold medal from the King of Sweden at the prize award ceremony in Stockholm on December 10, with the Nobel Laureates in physics, chemistry, physiology or medicine, and literature.^[25] Sveriges Riksbank pays for the cash award,^[8] which has been 10 million Swedish kronor (Oct 2007: approximately 1 million Euro) since 2001,^[17] and the Nobel Foundation's administrative expenses associated with the prize.^[8]

–panda 17:45, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This version fails on following points:

it does not satisfy Wikipedia Manual of Style which states that an article title (in this case "Nobel Prize in Economics") should be the subject of the first sentence of the article and that it should be in boldface.
it states that Nobel Prize in Economics is the most prestigious honor "along with the John Bates Clark Medal for American economists". Mention of John Bates Clark Medal is unwarranted. If needed, I can provide sources for that.
it states that this prize is "often referred to as the "Nobel Prize in economics"". It is "commonly" called NPiE as determined in previous requests for page rename discussions and as stated in several sources.
it doesn't mention that NPiE is universally perceived as a Nobel Prize which obvious from articles in Britannica, Encarta, and from the front page of Nobel Foundation's official site. Same is said in a book on Nobel Prizes – How to Win the Nobel Prize: An Unexpected Life in Science.
there is some redundant information is second paragraph, but this is a minor problem.

I'm going to revert to SecretaryNotSure's version, as the most neutral. -- Vision Thing -- 20:54, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Not only is SecretaryNotSure's version not more neutral, it contains factual errors that he's reinstated a few times already.

As Lensor has written elsewhere, WP:MOS#First_sentences states (my emphasis): "If possible, an article title is the subject of the first sentence of the article". It is not a requirement.
If you feel that mentioning the John Bates Clark Medal is unwarranted, then please provides the sources for that. And if you believe that it is not of equal merit, then go change the John Bates Clark Medal article.
I will ask that you kindly drop the "commonly" discussion. As stated before, if you want "commonly" in the article, then "mislabelled" and "mistakenly referred to" should also be in the introduction, which are also verifiable.
It doesn't matter if one source claims that it is "universally" perceived to be a Nobel Prize when it is already disproved. You've also taken Bishop's statement out of context. The text makes it clear that it's not trying to be factual, but humorous, since it gives counterexamples right away. From "How to Win the Nobel Prize" by J. Michael Bishop, on pp 10-11:

The bequest of the Nobel Prizes was spelled out in a single handwritten paragraph that named physics, chemistry, physiology or medicine, literature, and peace , in that order, as the themes for the prizes. A prize for the work in economics was established by the Bank of Sweden many years later (1968), in celebration of the Bank's three hundreth anniversary. The gesture caused great consternation among the Swedish stewards of the Nobel Prize, who saw it as an effort by a "non-rigorous discipline to cloak itself in the trappings of an objectivity it did not and could not posses."¹² To this day, the prize in economics is known as the "Bank of Sweden Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel" to distinguish it from the "real" Nobels, and is administered by the Nobel Foundation but not paid by the Nobel endowment. It is nevertheless universally perceived as a Nobel Prize, to quiet acquiescence by the Nobel Foundation and the "authentic" laureates (with the exception of an occasional physicist who voices a complaint).¹³

Nobel himself never accepted economics as a science, and even some of the laureates in economics have expressed doubt about the prize. In protest against the award to the outspoken and controversial Milton Friedman in 1975, a previous economics laureate, Gunnar Myrdal, wrote an open letter to a Swedish newspaper calling for an end to the economics prize. Myrdal's colaureate and ideological opponent), Friederich Hayek, toasted the kind and queen of Sweden with a remark that he would have recommended against establishing the prize in economics had he been asked—in his view, the discipline was not sufficiently rigorous and objective. One authority on Alfred Nobel and his prizes has suggested that too many of the "Nobelized achievements" in economics "seem perilously close to scientizing the commonsensical"¹⁴

¹² Michael A. Bernstein, "The Faux Nobel Prize," San Diego Union Tribune, October 13, 2000, p. B11.

¹³ Sylvia Nasar, "The Sometimes Dismal Nobel Prize," New York Times, October 13, 2001, p. C3.

¹⁴ Feldman, Nobel Prize, p. 353

and from p 27:

As for economics, only its immediate practitioners seem capable of appreciating the merits of its Nobelists. One perennial joke is that mere membership on the faculty of economics at the University of Chicago is sufficient to procure a Nobel Prize. Another is that although the prize for economics was instituted only in 1969, the field of eligible candidates may already have been exhausted. One administrator of the prize has told the press that "all the mighty firs have fallen; now there are only bushes left."³⁶

³⁶ Nasar, "The Sometimes Dismal Nobel Prize."

There's quite a lot in Bishop's text that could go into the controversy section.

I've added the statement that it is perceived as a Nobel Prize.
If you explain what is redundant in the 2nd paragraph, then that can probably be fixed.

New version below:

The Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel (Swedish: Sveriges riksbanks pris i ekonomisk vetenskap till Alfred Nobels minne) is awarded each year for outstanding contributions in the field of economics that "have conferred the greatest benefit on mankind."^[21] The prize is generally considered the most prestigious honor in economics along with the John Bates Clark Medal for American economists. Although it is often referred to as the "Nobel Prize in economics"^[18]^[19] and perceived to be a Nobel Prize,^[26]^[27]^[28] it is not a Nobel Prize,^[11]^[20] but a "prize in memory of Alfred Nobel".^[12]

The prize was established by Sveriges Riksbank (the central bank of Sweden) on its 300th anniversary in 1968, and first awarded in 1969.^[22]^[23]^[29] The Economics Laureates are selected by the Prize Committee of the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences,^[8] and they receive their diploma and gold medal from the King of Sweden at the prize award ceremony in Stockholm on December 10, with the Nobel Laureates in physics, chemistry, physiology or medicine, and literature.^[25] Sveriges Riksbank pays for the cash award,^[8] which has been 10 million Swedish kronor (Oct 2007: approximately 1 million Euro) since 2001,^[17] and the Nobel Foundation's administrative expenses associated with the prize.^[8]

–panda 00:46, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It is possible. If you don't see how, please click here.
John Bates Clark Medal article doesn't imply that they are of equal merit – you can be second best and still claim that you are among the top two. However, if you are first then it doesn't make sense to claim that you are among top two. ~~Still, I will add requested source.~~ Source is already provided - Encyclopædia Britannica, and intro of Nobel Prize states the same.
New version doesn't mention "commonly", "often" or any other qualifier. However, your version does.
If anything is disapproved it's Lensor's claim that everyone must agree on something for "universally" to be applied.
Bishop's statement was not taken out of context. I don't see how he is trying to be humorous. Please keep your personal interpretations for yourself. He clearly says that NpiE is universally perceived as a Nobel Prize and that Nobel Foundation is accepting such perception without protest. Which is, as I must point out again, quite clear from the front page of their official site.
Detail about establishment of the prize on 300th anniversary of Sveriges Riksbank is unnecessary for the introduction, and I would phrase last sentence differently: The prize is administered by the Nobel Foundation in accordance with rules and principles laid out in Alfred Nobel's will. The Swedish Central Bank provides the prize amount of 10 million Swedish kronor (Oct 2007: approximately 1 million Euro) ~~and covers administrative expenses associated with the prize.~~ On a second thought maybe this talk about administrative expenses is too technical for the intro. -- Vision Thing -- 21:56, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The version you quoted is not acceptable, as it pushes the POV that the real name of the prize is "Nobel Prize in Economics" and it is just "called officially" "Sveriges Riksbanks...". Refer to my comment about this version above.
I agree that the reference to the John Bates Clark Medal does not have to be included.
As stated above, some qualifyers are ok if they are uncontrovesial according to WP:WEASEL. It is hardly controversial to state that the prize is often referred to as a Nobel Prize, after all that is the premise of the naming of the article in the first place.
Please read my statement above about your use of "universal". The main definition of the word is "including or covering all or a whole collectively or distributively without limit or exception" (my emphasis). If you actually do mean it in the one lesser definition that fits your agenda, then another word less prone to misinterpretation is more suited.
If you dont see the humour in Bishop's text, that is up to you. However, one person stating it is "universal" dont make it so. Your interpretation (careful with WP:NOR) of what the Nobel Foundation "thinks" is irrelevant in comparson to the written statements of the Nobel Foundation which say "The Prize in Economics is not a Nobel Prize".
I disagree that who established the prize is irrelevant for the introduction. It is on the contrary extremely central for explaining what the prize is. Furthermore, to remove who pays for the administration but keep that the Nobel Foundation administers is is borderline misleading. Either both stays or both goes, keeping only one gives the false impression that the Nobel Foundation pays for the administration themselves.--Lensor 09:33, 9 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

^ IANS (2004-10-08). "Amartya Sen's Nobel challenged in court". newindpress.com. Retrieved 2007-10-16. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
^ IANS (2004-10-08). "Did Amartya Sen get the Nobel?". The Times of India. Retrieved 2007-10-16. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
^ Nobel, Philip (2007-10-09). "Michael Nobel Energy Award". [PRBuzz.com]. Retrieved 2007-10-18. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
^ Nobel, Philip (2007-10-09). "Statement from the Nobel Charitable Trust Foundation regarding the Michael Nobel Energy Award". [I-Newswire.com]. Retrieved 2007-10-18. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
^ Metro: Nobel var en bedragare
^ nanoPRwire (2007-09-24). "Michael Nobel Relieved of nanoTX'07 Activities After Protest from Nobel Foundation and Family Society". Nano Science and Technology Institute. Retrieved 2007-10-18. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
^ Feder, Barnaby J. (2007-10-18). "The Nobel Prize That Wasn't". The New York Times. Retrieved 2007-10-18. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
^ ^a ^b ^c ^d ^e ^f ^g ^h ⁱ ^j ^k ^l "Statutes for The Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel approved by the Crown on the 19th day of December 1968". The Nobel Foundation. Retrieved 2007-10-18.
^ Leen, Auke R. (2004-03-03). "The Tinbergen Brothers". Nobel Foundation. Retrieved 2007-11-03. In 1969, Jan Tinbergen, aged 66, received the first Bank of Sweden Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel, often mistakenly referred to as the 'Nobel prize in economics.'
^ Taleb, Nassim Nicholas (2007-10-23). "The pseudo-science hurting markets". The Financial Times. Retrieved 2007-11-03. The theories Mr Rothman was using to produce his odds of these events were "Nobel-crowned" methods of the so-called modern portfolio theory designed to compute the risks of financial portfolios. MPT is the foundation of works in economics and finance that several times received the Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel. The prize was created (and funded) by the Swedish central bank and has been progressively confused with the regular Nobel set up by Alfred Nobel; it is now mislabelled the 'Nobel Prize for economics'. {{cite news}}: soft hyphen character in |quote= at position 315 (help)
^ ^a ^b ^c ^d ^e ^f "Qualified Nominators – The Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel". The Nobel Foundation. Retrieved 2007-10-18. "The Prize in Economics is not a Nobel Prize."
^ ^a ^b ^c ^d ^e ^f ^g Englund, Peter. "Your Questions about The Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel". The Nobel Foundation. Retrieved 2007-10-30. The Nobel Prizes are only those that are specifically mentioned in Alfred Nobel's will (Physics, Chemistry, Physiology or Medicine, Literature and Peace). The Economics Prize came much later and is a prize in memory of Alfred Nobel. In all relevant respects the committee understands and treats economics as a field of science. {{cite web}}: More than one of |author= and |last= specified (help) Cite error: The named reference "econ-q2007" was defined multiple times with different content (see the help page).
^ Leen, Auke R. (2004-03-03). "The Tinbergen Brothers". Nobel Foundation. Retrieved 2007-11-03. In 1969, Jan Tinbergen, aged 66, received the first Bank of Sweden Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel, often mistakenly referred to as the 'Nobel prize in economics.'
^ Taleb, Nassim Nicholas (2007-10-23). "The pseudo-science hurting markets". The Financial Times. Retrieved 2007-11-03. The theories Mr Rothman was using to produce his odds of these events were "Nobel-crowned" methods of the so-called modern portfolio theory designed to compute the risks of financial portfolios. MPT is the foundation of works in economics and finance that several times received the Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel. The prize was created (and funded) by the Swedish central bank and has been progressively confused with the regular Nobel set up by Alfred Nobel; it is now mislabelled the 'Nobel Prize for economics'. {{cite news}}: soft hyphen character in |quote= at position 315 (help)
^ Leen, Auke R. (2004-03-03). "The Tinbergen Brothers". Nobel Foundation. Retrieved 2007-11-03. In 1969, Jan Tinbergen, aged 66, received the first Bank of Sweden Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel, often mistakenly referred to as the 'Nobel prize in economics.'
^ Taleb, Nassim Nicholas (2007-10-23). "The pseudo-science hurting markets". The Financial Times. Retrieved 2007-11-03. The theories Mr Rothman was using to produce his odds of these events were "Nobel-crowned" methods of the so-called modern portfolio theory designed to compute the risks of financial portfolios. MPT is the foundation of works in economics and finance that several times received the Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel. The prize was created (and funded) by the Swedish central bank and has been progressively confused with the regular Nobel set up by Alfred Nobel; it is now mislabelled the 'Nobel Prize for economics'. {{cite news}}: soft hyphen character in |quote= at position 315 (help)
^ ^a ^b ^c ^d "The Prize Amount". The Nobel Foundation. Retrieved 2007-10-18.
^ ^a ^b ^c Leen, Auke R. (2004-03-03). "The Tinbergen Brothers". Nobel Foundation. Retrieved 2007-11-03. In 1969, Jan Tinbergen, aged 66, received the first Bank of Sweden Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel, often mistakenly referred to as the 'Nobel prize in economics.'
^ ^a ^b ^c Taleb, Nassim Nicholas (2007-10-23). "The pseudo-science hurting markets". The Financial Times. Retrieved 2007-11-03. The theories Mr Rothman was using to produce his odds of these events were "Nobel-crowned" methods of the so-called modern portfolio theory designed to compute the risks of financial portfolios. MPT is the foundation of works in economics and finance that several times received the Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel. The prize was created (and funded) by the Swedish central bank and has been progressively confused with the regular Nobel set up by Alfred Nobel; it is now mislabelled the 'Nobel Prize for economics'. {{cite news}}: soft hyphen character in |quote= at position 315 (help)
^ ^a ^b ^c Nasar, Sylvia (1998). A Beautiful Mind. New York: Simon & Schuster. p. 358. ISBN 0-684-81906-6. It is, in fact, not a Nobel Prize, but rather "The Central Bank of Sweden Prize in Economic Science in Memory of Alfred Nobel."
^ ^a ^b "Excerpt from the Will of Alfred Nobel". The Nobel Foundation. Retrieved 2007-11-07.
^ ^a ^b "The Nobel Prize". The Nobel Foundation. Retrieved 2007-11-07. In 1968, Sveriges Riksbank established The Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel, founder of the Nobel Prize.
^ ^a ^b "The Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel". The Nobel Foundation. Retrieved 2007-11-07. In 1968, Sveriges Riksbank (Sweden's central bank) established this Prize in memory of Alfred Nobel, founder of the Nobel Prize. The first Prize in Economics was awarded to Ragnar Frisch and Jan Tinbergen in 1969
^ "The Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel". Sveriges Riksbank. Retrieved 2007-11-07. Sveriges Riksbank's Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel was established in connection with the Riksbank's 300th anniversary in 1968.
^ ^a ^b "The Nobel Prize Award Ceremonies and Banquets". The Nobel Foundation. Retrieved 2007-11-07.
^ Michael Bishop. How to Win the Nobel Prize: An Unexpected Life in Science. (2004) Harvard University Press. ISBN 0674016254 p.10
^ "Nobel Prize." Encyclopædia Britannica. Encyclopædia Britannica 2007 Ultimate Reference Suite. Chicago: Encyclopædia Britannica, 2007.
^ "Nobel Prizes," Microsoft® Encarta® Online Encyclopedia 2007 http://uk.encarta.msn.com
^ "The Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel". Sveriges Riksbank. Retrieved 2007-11-07. Sveriges Riksbank's Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel was established in connection with the Riksbank's 300th anniversary in 1968.

[1] IANS (2004-10-08). "Amartya Sen's Nobel challenged in court". newindpress.com. Retrieved 2007-10-16. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

[2] IANS (2004-10-08). "Did Amartya Sen get the Nobel?". The Times of India. Retrieved 2007-10-16. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

[3] Nobel, Philip (2007-10-09). "Michael Nobel Energy Award". [PRBuzz.com]. Retrieved 2007-10-18. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

[4] Nobel, Philip (2007-10-09). "Statement from the Nobel Charitable Trust Foundation regarding the Michael Nobel Energy Award". [I-Newswire.com]. Retrieved 2007-10-18. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

[5] Metro: Nobel var en bedragare

[6] PRwire (2007-09-24). "Michael Nobel Relieved of nanoTX'07 Activities After Protest from Nobel Foundation and Family Society". Nano Science and Technology Institute. Retrieved 2007-10-18. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

[7] Feder, Barnaby J. (2007-10-18). "The Nobel Prize That Wasn't". The New York Times. Retrieved 2007-10-18. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

[statutes-econ-8] ^ ^a ^b ^c ^d ^e ^f ^g ^h ⁱ ^j ^k ^l "Statutes for The Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel approved by the Crown on the 19th day of December 1968". The Nobel Foundation. Retrieved 2007-10-18.

[9] Leen, Auke R. (2004-03-03). "The Tinbergen Brothers". Nobel Foundation. Retrieved 2007-11-03. In 1969, Jan Tinbergen, aged 66, received the first Bank of Sweden Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel, often mistakenly referred to as the 'Nobel prize in economics.'

[10] Taleb, Nassim Nicholas (2007-10-23). "The pseudo-science hurting markets". The Financial Times. Retrieved 2007-11-03. The theories Mr Rothman was using to produce his odds of these events were "Nobel-crowned" methods of the so-called modern portfolio theory designed to compute the risks of financial portfolios. MPT is the foundation of works in economics and finance that several times received the Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel. The prize was created (and funded) by the Swedish central bank and has been progressively confused with the regular Nobel set up by Alfred Nobel; it is now mislabelled the 'Nobel Prize for economics'. {{cite news}}: soft hyphen character in |quote= at position 315 (help)

[econ-nominators-11] ^ ^a ^b ^c ^d ^e ^f "Qualified Nominators – The Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel". The Nobel Foundation. Retrieved 2007-10-18. "The Prize in Economics is not a Nobel Prize."

[econ-q2007-12] ^ ^a ^b ^c ^d ^e ^f ^g Englund, Peter. "Your Questions about The Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel". The Nobel Foundation. Retrieved 2007-10-30. The Nobel Prizes are only those that are specifically mentioned in Alfred Nobel's will (Physics, Chemistry, Physiology or Medicine, Literature and Peace). The Economics Prize came much later and is a prize in memory of Alfred Nobel. In all relevant respects the committee understands and treats economics as a field of science. {{cite web}}: More than one of |author= and |last= specified (help) Cite error: The named reference "econ-q2007" was defined multiple times with different content (see the help page).

[13] Leen, Auke R. (2004-03-03). "The Tinbergen Brothers". Nobel Foundation. Retrieved 2007-11-03. In 1969, Jan Tinbergen, aged 66, received the first Bank of Sweden Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel, often mistakenly referred to as the 'Nobel prize in economics.'

[14] Taleb, Nassim Nicholas (2007-10-23). "The pseudo-science hurting markets". The Financial Times. Retrieved 2007-11-03. The theories Mr Rothman was using to produce his odds of these events were "Nobel-crowned" methods of the so-called modern portfolio theory designed to compute the risks of financial portfolios. MPT is the foundation of works in economics and finance that several times received the Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel. The prize was created (and funded) by the Swedish central bank and has been progressively confused with the regular Nobel set up by Alfred Nobel; it is now mislabelled the 'Nobel Prize for economics'. {{cite news}}: soft hyphen character in |quote= at position 315 (help)

[15] Leen, Auke R. (2004-03-03). "The Tinbergen Brothers". Nobel Foundation. Retrieved 2007-11-03. In 1969, Jan Tinbergen, aged 66, received the first Bank of Sweden Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel, often mistakenly referred to as the 'Nobel prize in economics.'

[16] Taleb, Nassim Nicholas (2007-10-23). "The pseudo-science hurting markets". The Financial Times. Retrieved 2007-11-03. The theories Mr Rothman was using to produce his odds of these events were "Nobel-crowned" methods of the so-called modern portfolio theory designed to compute the risks of financial portfolios. MPT is the foundation of works in economics and finance that several times received the Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel. The prize was created (and funded) by the Swedish central bank and has been progressively confused with the regular Nobel set up by Alfred Nobel; it is now mislabelled the 'Nobel Prize for economics'. {{cite news}}: soft hyphen character in |quote= at position 315 (help)

[econ-cash-17] "The Prize Amount". The Nobel Foundation. Retrieved 2007-10-18.

[leen-18] Leen, Auke R. (2004-03-03). "The Tinbergen Brothers". Nobel Foundation. Retrieved 2007-11-03. In 1969, Jan Tinbergen, aged 66, received the first Bank of Sweden Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel, often mistakenly referred to as the 'Nobel prize in economics.'

[taleb"-19] Taleb, Nassim Nicholas (2007-10-23). "The pseudo-science hurting markets". The Financial Times. Retrieved 2007-11-03. The theories Mr Rothman was using to produce his odds of these events were "Nobel-crowned" methods of the so-called modern portfolio theory designed to compute the risks of financial portfolios. MPT is the foundation of works in economics and finance that several times received the Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel. The prize was created (and funded) by the Swedish central bank and has been progressively confused with the regular Nobel set up by Alfred Nobel; it is now mislabelled the 'Nobel Prize for economics'. {{cite news}}: soft hyphen character in |quote= at position 315 (help)

[nasar-20] Nasar, Sylvia (1998). A Beautiful Mind. New York: Simon & Schuster. p. 358. ISBN 0-684-81906-6. It is, in fact, not a Nobel Prize, but rather "The Central Bank of Sweden Prize in Economic Science in Memory of Alfred Nobel."

[NF-short_will-21] "Excerpt from the Will of Alfred Nobel". The Nobel Foundation. Retrieved 2007-11-07.

[NF-prizes-22] "The Nobel Prize". The Nobel Foundation. Retrieved 2007-11-07. In 1968, Sveriges Riksbank established The Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel, founder of the Nobel Prize.

[bank-estab-23] "The Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel". The Nobel Foundation. Retrieved 2007-11-07. In 1968, Sveriges Riksbank (Sweden's central bank) established this Prize in memory of Alfred Nobel, founder of the Nobel Prize. The first Prize in Economics was awarded to Ragnar Frisch and Jan Tinbergen in 1969

[24] "The Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel". Sveriges Riksbank. Retrieved 2007-11-07. Sveriges Riksbank's Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel was established in connection with the Riksbank's 300th anniversary in 1968.

[NF-ceremonies-25] "The Nobel Prize Award Ceremonies and Banquets". The Nobel Foundation. Retrieved 2007-11-07.

[26] Michael Bishop. How to Win the Nobel Prize: An Unexpected Life in Science. (2004) Harvard University Press. ISBN 0674016254 p.10

[27] "Nobel Prize." Encyclopædia Britannica. Encyclopædia Britannica 2007 Ultimate Reference Suite. Chicago: Encyclopædia Britannica, 2007.

[28] "Nobel Prizes," Microsoft® Encarta® Online Encyclopedia 2007 http://uk.encarta.msn.com

[29] "The Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel". Sveriges Riksbank. Retrieved 2007-11-07. Sveriges Riksbank's Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel was established in connection with the Riksbank's 300th anniversary in 1968.

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@@ Line 1,179: / Line 1,179: @@
 :* Bishop's statement was not taken out of context. I don't see how he is trying to be humorous. Please keep your personal interpretations for yourself. He clearly says that NpiE is universally perceived as a Nobel Prize and that Nobel Foundation is accepting such perception without protest. Which is, as I must point out again, quite clear from the [http://nobelprize.org/ front page] of their official site.
 :* Detail about establishment of the prize on 300th anniversary of Sveriges Riksbank is unnecessary for the introduction, and I would phrase last sentence differently: The prize is administered by the Nobel Foundation in accordance with rules and principles laid out in Alfred Nobel's will. The Swedish Central Bank provides the prize amount of 10 million Swedish kronor (Oct 2007: approximately 1 million Euro) <s>and covers administrative expenses associated with the prize.</s> ''On a second thought maybe this talk about administrative expenses is too technical for the intro.''  [[User:Vision Thing|-- Vision]]  [[User_talk:Vision_Thing|Thing --]] 21:56, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
+::*The version you quoted is not acceptable, as it pushes the POV that the real name of the prize is "Nobel Prize in Economics" and it is just "called officially" "Sveriges Riksbanks...". Refer to my comment about this version above.
+::*I agree that the reference to the [[John Bates Clark Medal]] does not have to be included.
+::*As stated above, some qualifyers are ok if they are uncontrovesial according to [[WP:WEASEL]]. It is hardly controversial to state that the prize is often referred to as a Nobel Prize, after all that is the premise of the naming of the article in the first place.
+::*Please read my statement above about your use of "universal". The main definition of the word is "including or covering all or a whole collectively or distributively '''without limit or exception'''" (my emphasis). If you actually do mean it in the one lesser definition that fits your agenda, then another word less prone to misinterpretation is more suited.
+::*If you dont see the humour in Bishop's text, that is up to you. However, one person stating it is "universal" dont make it so. Your interpretation (careful with [[WP:NOR]]) of what the Nobel Foundation "thinks" is irrelevant in comparson to the written statements of the Nobel Foundation which say "The Prize in Economics is not a Nobel Prize".
+::* I disagree that who established the prize is irrelevant for the introduction. It is on the contrary extremely central for explaining what the prize is. Furthermore, to remove who pays for the administration but keep that the Nobel Foundation administers is is borderline misleading. Either both stays or both goes, keeping only one gives the false impression that the Nobel Foundation pays for the administration themselves.--[[User:Lensor|Lensor]] 09:33, 9 November 2007 (UTC)