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m moved Talk:Afghanistani (Afghan) American to Talk:Afghan American over redirect: Discussion conclusion.
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Self referential

Afghans call themselves AFGHANi or AFGHAN not Afghanistani, this term doesn't exist and the article must be changed.

Pashtun's are sometimes called "Awghan" which doesn't mean that other ethinic groups are not Afghans. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.154.214.204 (talk) 23:11, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Article disputed

I agree, there is no such thing as the term Afghanistani. - PullMyFinger409

There is no such thing as a Afghanistani. It is Afghan and Afghan only.

The usage of Afghanistani has never been used internally or externally and has no historical justification.

I also agree that the word "Afghanistani" used in this article is completely incorrect. All the references used in the article shows that the correct name or word is Afghan. [1], [2],[3], [4]. --Artimand 07:03, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I would also like to protest the use of the word "afghanistani" which is totally stupid - no such word exists. It does not belong on wikipedia. Once again, i would also like to say that, like the middle eastern americans article, this also has material which is obviously only the perecptions of the author. you cannot include such material in an encyclopedia! for example:

Afghanistani Americans reserve their ancestral languages of Persian (natively known as Farsi), Pashto for intimate setting while using English as a medium for status related conversations.

says who? you cannot apply that to a whole people...

I find it very strange why the author of this article is removing the disputed tag and is not explaining anything here.--Artimand 09:10, 12 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The article is well sourced and you cannot put a dispute tag on an article until there is a dispute among many users in the discussion. Also it is well explained and sources in other articles the term Afghan is a synonym for Pashtun and so Afghanistani is prefered for someone who is from Afghanistan. (see Origins of the name Afghan). --Behnam 17:21, 12 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I see! you've decided to give a complete new name to the Afghans living in America. This is not how you suppose to write an article here, as you are suppose to use only documented proof from reliable and trustful sources. Do not use another Wikipedia article as evidence, this is not helpful and doesn't work here. Every single source that is used in this article mentions Afghan American, which makes the name [Afghanistani] incorrect, so you are suppose to use the same name provided in the sources, which is Afghan. The term Afghanistani has never been used in the past, it is totally wrong and confusing to use this. There are several people already disputing this article, do not remove the disputed tag until someone who is an expert on this takes a look at the article and corrects all the mistakes.--Artimand 11:16, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The term Afghanistani is more correct for a non ethnic Afghan (Pashtun) citizen from Afghanistan. Pashtuns may be called Afghan since that is what they are. Now if you are familiar with Afghanistan and its history, it should be clear to you that Afghans were Pashtuns until recently when the world begun to use that misnomer for all people of Afghanistan. I am a Tajik myself and we are not Afghan. It is an injustice to impose your identity on us. Today the world is gradually correcting this misnomer and infact the term Afghanistani is being used. Dictionary.com is one source where it is used here. And here are a few other sources, the term is not made up. It is the correct term for any citizen from Afghanistan (just like Pakistani, Uzbekistani, etc):

BBC Radio

Now as you can see the term is not invented by me. And stop putting the dispute tag, there has to be a large dispute for that. --Behnam 18:59, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]


"afghanistani american" is far less common:
if you check "afghan american" on yahoo search, it will show that the name "afghan american" has been used in 33 million places, while "afghanistani american" has only been used in 56,000 places.
None of the links Behnam provided even attempt to assert the term is preferred by the group itself - all are Western or Indian news stories, blog comments or "free dictionary" entries, which is same thing as searching names on googles.
The term Afghan: a native or inhabitant of Afghanistan" clik here for merriam webster dictionary, in antiquity, has been synonymous with Pashtun. However, since the establishment of the modern state and the ratification of various versions of the Afghan constitution, all individuals within the borders of Afghanistan are referred to as Afghans and are bound by the same rights and responsibilities under the law: "Article Four of the Preamble: The word Afghan shall apply to every citizen of Afghanistan. No individual of the nation of Afghanistan shall be deprived of citizenship."click for constitution of afghanistan here
Article Four, of the constitution of afghanistan:
the cia factbook on afghanistan uses Afghan, see here >>>CIA
this article needs to be called "afghan american", and in it, there may be mentioning of "afghanistani american" as a name seldomly used by foreignors who are not familiar with the afghan culture or the afghan people. this is the best solution i can think of, if not then i am absolutely sure there will be many afghans coming here to complain in the future. it serves no purpose to leave it as "afghanistani american".Mirrori1 07:57, 17 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Only Pashtuns are Afghans

Only Pashtuns are Afghans and majority of Afghanistan are non pashtuns, so its logical using Afghanistani rather than Afghan.

--Anoshirawan 03:27, 21 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]


afghanistan means country of pashtuns, afghan=pashtun estan=country so the word afghanistani does not exist its grammaticly wrong! it shows how uneducated the persons saying that are

is there no one at wikipedia us to investigate this case?


U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations, Zalmay Khalilzad, is an ethnic Pashtun, from Afghanistan.
isn't "mr. khalilzad" (in the picture on the right) a pashtun? so if he is pashtun then doesn't that make him "afghan"? since he is afghan and a us citizen, he is therefore "afghan american", which this article is based on. i'm sure he is not the only pashtun in usa and that may be there are many others as well.Mirrori1 04:41, 21 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Yes but he is the only Pashtun. Khaled Hussaini isnt an Afghan

Yes he is of Pashtun origin, though he is a Farsi-speaker from Mazari Sharif his roots are from around Laghman I think. Yes, he is an Afghan American. But a term should be used to include all people from Afghanistan. The terms Afghan American and Afghanistani American can also be explained in the article and I think I will do that soon. --Behnam 05:26, 21 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Behnam, a couple of months have passed by without the change. Therefore, I have made the appropriate changes. Best RegardsScythian1 00:45, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry I forgot about it. Thanks a lot. Much appreciated. Take care bro. -- Behnam 01:44, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Afghan vs. Afghanistani

This article does not differenciate between Afghans and Afghanistanis, and both terms are used as synonyms. There should be a small note at the top of the article explaining the difference between Afghanistani and Afghan. Right now, the text is confusing.

what the hell should "afghanistani" mean? its afghan!!! the word afghanistani does not exist! 

 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.83.132.146 (talk) 13:03, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

South Asian

These links say that the US Census classifies Afghans as South Asians1 and2. User:Beh-nam removed the Asian American template, stating that there is nothing South Asian about Afghanistanis.----DarkTea© 22:44, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The US census is 7 years old now. They have most likely changed that classification since now much more is known about Afghanistan than in 2000. -- Behnam 23:27, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This Census Bureau coding was released January 22, 2007. Read the bottom of the spreadsheet to confirm this date.----DarkTea© 03:48, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Nowhere in the spreadsheet link does it show that Afghans are racially counted as Asian, but only that the code for Afghanistan falls under the grouping "South Asian". This file also includes the term "Southwest Asian" in place of Middle Eastern, and counts it as separate grouping as well. In other words, the file is simply a list of codes grouped geographically, and has no legal merit. Atari400 01:04, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, Afghanistan is presented in that ancestry document as being geographically situated in South Asia. I think it can just as easily be called a South Asian as a Middle Eastern, or even Central Asian country, and I've seen it classified in each of these ways. But as Atari stated, that doesn't mean that the Census Bureau counts Afghani Americans as Asian Americans in its racial statistics. The list of countries for Asian ancestry given in "The Asian Population: 2000. Census 2000 Brief" does not include Afghanistan: "The term “Asian” refers to people having origins in any of the original peoples of the Far East, Southeast Asia, or the Indian subcontinent (for example, Cambodia, China, India, Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Pakistan, the Philippine Islands, Thailand, and Vietnam)."(http://www.census.gov/prod/2002pubs/c2kbr01-16.pdf) However, this is only an example. Yet further on, Table 4 lists the Asian American population by detailed groups, and here's the full list: "Asian Indian, Bangladeshi, Bhutanese, Burmese, Cambodian, Chinese, except Taiwanese, Filipino, Hmong, Indo Chinese, Indonesian, Iwo Jiman, Japanese, Korean, Laotian, Malaysian, Maldivian, Nepalese, Okinawan, Pakistani, Singaporean, Sri Lankan, Taiwanese, Thai, Vietnamese, Other Asian, not specified." Notice again that Afghanistan is not listed.
Nor could one cite the possibly small number of Afghani Americans as the reason they're missing from this list, since Afghani Americans number at least 52,107, per the ancestry question responses,([5]) and yet Table 4 lists some very small groups, such as Maldivian American, with 51 people, as well as Iwo Jiman American (78 people), Indo Chinese American (199 people) and Bhutanese American (212 people).
Conclusion: Afghani or Afghanistani Americans are not considered Asian American by the U.S. Census Bureau. SamEV 04:08, 12 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That is the conclusion that I came to, as well. As of yet, I have been unable to find a modern court decision in the U.S counting Afghans as a "protected class" under "Asian American" as well. The EEOC actually goes out of it's way to stress that people from the Middle East, including Iranians by specific example, are not counted as "Asian". Hence, Afghans seem to be reasoned in with Middle Easterners, and people from the former Soviet Republics as "white". Atari400 08:51, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed. I think it's case closed. SamEV 09:20, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Changing this to Afghan American

I will be changing the name of this article to Afghan American as per the July 2007 consensus and as per the Constitution of Afghanistan, which states "The word Afghan shall apply to every citizen of Afghanistan." That Constitution was not created by a dictator or a cabal, but was approved by consensus by the 2003 Loya jirga. Kingturtle (talk) 13:12, 28 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There is still a discussion on this on the Afghanistan article's Talk page. There is no consensus yet. That discussions was for the categories which I did not participate in fully and for which have started a new discussion for. In addition, the constution of Afghanistan that was written in 2004 was forged (I will send you an article on that). -- Behnam (talk) 13:29, 28 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If there's to be a move, I propose Afghani American as a compromise. SamEV (talk) 19:30, 28 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There really is no question what the generally accepted usage is.

  • "Afghan American" -wikipedia = 71,400 google hits
  • "Afghanistani American" -wikipedia = 2,060 google hits
  • "Afghani American" -wikipedia = 806 google hits

Kingturtle (talk) 04:11, 29 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Afghan American is an incorrect term used by english speakers. This is an encyclopedia and we are here to correct mistakes not to promote them. If this articles was only on Pashtuns I would have also agreed on changing it to Afghan American.--Anoshirawan 04:19, 29 November 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anoshirawan (talk • contribs)

Kingturtle, you're right (I googled them last week, too). But I'm saying that if there's no consensus for either of the two main choices, well, that's why I propose Afghani American as a good, third possibility. SamEV (talk) 05:57, 29 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Afghan = Pashtun, Afghani = Afghanistan's currency, Afghanistani = a citizen of Afghanistan( for example, not everyone in Tajikistan is a Tajik but everyone in Tajikistan is a Tajikistani or The Tajiks in Uzbekistan arent Uzbek but Uzbekistani.) most people who are mentioned in this article are non Afghan/non Pashtun and its unlogical using the Term Afghan on them when they themselves do not use it. We are here to fix mistakes not to repeat them. If Americans use Afghan then we will educate them to use Afghanistani.Anoshirawan (talk) 07:22, 29 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This problem was created with the advent of the Nation State. Ethnicities lose their identity to the State. Surely it can be argued that there is no such thing as an Iraqi, but Iraqi American is still the catch-all term. And although China has 50+ ethnicities within its border, the catch-all term is Chinese American. Kingturtle (talk) 14:12, 29 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Anoshirawan, at least "Afghani" means the same as "Afghanistani", not "Pashtun only". I mean, the Afghani is not the currency of the Pashtuns only, is it? SamEV (talk) 03:06, 30 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Iraq is not an ethnic identity but Afghan is. Most ethnic Afghans live in Pakistan and inside Afghanistan the Persian speaking majority uses the word "Afghan" for only Pashtuns. Afghanistani is a correct term just like Pakistani,Hindustani,kazakhistani,uzbekistani,turkmenistani,tajikistani,Irani,Iraqi...etc Anoshirawan 22:00, 29 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Afghanistani may be a better term. However, the commonly used term in the English language is Afghan. Wikipedia is not a conduit for social or political change. As far as I can tell, we must use the commonly used term and wait for the media and English speakers to change their usage to Afghanistani. Once that happens, Wikipedia can follow suit. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia that culls information from other sources. Wikipedia is not a place for original research. In other words, Wikipedia cannot take the first step in changing language usage. We cannot be the ignition, catalyst, precident or pusher of a change in language usage. Wikipedia is merely a refection of culture. Wikipedia should not force a point-of-view onto culture. Kingturtle 13:50, 30 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Here is what webster dictionary says about Afghan:

Main Entry: 

   Af·ghan Listen to the pronunciation of Afghan

Pronunciation: 

   \ˈaf-ˌgan also -gən\

Function: 

   noun

Etymology: 

   Persian afghān Pashtun

Date: 

   1767

1 a (1): pashtun (2): pashto b: a native or inhabitant of Afghanistan2not capitalized : a blanket or shawl of colored wool knitted or crocheted in strips or squares3not capitalized : a Turkoman carpet of large size and long pile woven in geometric designs http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Afghan --Anoshirawan 01:22, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Afghan = Pashtun

Here are additional scholarly sources that clearly state Afghan is Pashtun

(north-eastern dialect Pa¦Štån), pl. Pa/ïŠt§nÃ."

  • Encyclopedia Iranica: "“Afg@a@n” is the term by which the Persian-speakers of Afghanistan (and the non-PaÞáto@-speaking ethnic groups generally) designate the PaÞátu@n. The equation Afghans = PaÞátu@n has been propagated all the more, both in and beyond Afghanistan, because the PaÞátu@n tribal confederation is by far the most important in the country, numerically and politically."
  • British Library: "afghans (1) An ethnic group: the Pushtun tribes inhabiting the area roughly lying between the Hindu Kush in the North and the Indus in the South; Pathans. Comes to mean Pathans residing in Afghanistan. Divided into two main groups, the Abdalis (qv) and the Ghilzais (qv). The predominant ethnic group in Afghanistan."
  • Encyclopedia Britannica: "spelled Pushtun , or Pakhtun , Hindustani Pathan , Persian Afghan"

After looking at these sources, which are some of the most authoritative, there should be no more arguments. Kabul-Shahan2020 (talk) 03:23, 13 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Afghan=Pashtun is old historical, no longer accepted, not valid today. In modern times we use Afghan for the nationality of all the citizens of Afghanistan. The 28 million Pashtuns of Pakistan are not Afghans. This is plain and simple to understand so please, all of you, stop this nonsense because it will lead to no where.--ZRX222 (talk) 03:55, 15 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Orange County DA's office uses Afghanistani. Even though the subject is a Pashtun. See here: Ali Achekzai, top 10 wanted list. CanadianAnthropologist (talk) 23:17, 15 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Page protection

I'm Afghan-American and we never use Afghanistani-Americans, that's very silly name. If you're not even Afghan-Americans then why are you giving us this silly name? That's not fair... this page must be fully protected for a year from these vandals. If somebody wants to make edits to this page in the future then they can place their information here on the talk page first and then we will add them if it's correct, and if it's not we will ignore it. This is the best solution to this problem here with these nonAfghan-Americans trying to give silly names to us.--Ziblam (talk) 11:30, 17 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Afghan American simply means Pashtun American. Its like using Persian American for a kurd or Azeri from Iran. Most people in this article are non afghan, non pashtun so its unlogical using Afghan American for them. Anoshirawan 00:33, 18 December 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anoshirawan (talk • contribs)

Afghan is an ethnic identity and it is synonymous with Pashtun.

In this regard the Encyclopædia Iranica states:[8] 

   From a more limited, ethnological point of view, "Afghān" is the term by which the Persian-speakers of Afghanistan (and the non-Paštō-speaking ethnic groups generally) designate the Paštūn. The equation [of] Afghan [and] Paštūn has been propagated all the more, both in and beyond Afghanistan, because the Paštūn tribal confederation is by far the most important in the country, numerically and politically.

It further explains: 

the Paštūn since ancient times. Under the form Avagānā, this ethnic group is first mentioned by the Indian astronomer Varāha Mihira in the beginning of the 6th century CE in his Brihat-samhita.

Anoshirawan 01:09, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Anoshirawan still doesn't understand that this article is about nationality, has nothing to do with ethnicity. Pashtun as Afghan is historical term (used in pre-1700 times), its meaning has changed since 1700s (especially in 1900s when it began to be mentioned in the constitutions), Afghan applies to anyone who is from Afghanistan, regardless of their color, race, religion, ethnic background. Same thing goes for American, anyone who is from America is called American, regarless of their race, color, religion or ethnic background. The Pashtuns of Pakistan are called Pakistanis. The Pashtuns of India are called Indians. Afghan-American is the only way to write it unless you first change the constitution of Afghanistan which clearly states that all ethnic groups of Afghanistan are to be called Afghans. If you don't like to be called Afghan then just change your nationality and leave the article alone. It is vandalism to change the name Afghan to Afghanistani.--Afghansuperior (talk) 02:50, 20 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

File:Turbanned man.jpg
Sikh

Back in the 1800s or late 1700s, American refered only to white English people but today even a Sikh wearing a turban (like the one in the picture on the right) can be called American if he has legal documents of America. In nearly all the countries of the world, except USA, when people see a white person they call them American. If you are non-white citizen of USA you need to show your American passport in order for someone to actually believe you're an American. The original white people in America are from England or Britian, why can't we call them British? That's because we use their nation to determine their name, not their ethnicity, color or race.

About Afghanistan now, the Pashtuns of southern Afghanistan never called themselves Afghans in 1600s, 1500s and before. They only called themselves Pashtuns, some probably called themselves Khorasanian Pashtuns while others Hindustani Pashtuns. The Afghans were those who lived in areas where Pakhto is spoken, in the NWFP and FATA suroundings and their area was called Afghanistan for over 1,000 years since at least the time of Arab invasions. In 1700s, Afghanistan was created into a large state and the people just began using Afghan as a nationality instead of ethnic names. Then the leaders of the country made the name official to other nations, there are treaties that were signed to prove this. That's how Afghan as a nationality came into existance and nobody has ever been against it. Only a very small number of Persian speakers in the country don't like the name because the name is not relating to them in any way. The name Afghan is very popular now as much as the name American is because it's every where, it has a long history compare to many other nationality names. If you want to make Afghanistani a popular name it will take you minimum 1,000 years from now on and even by then it will not be as popular as already existing nationality names. Look at Pakistani, Tajikistani or others, no matter how much those names are used they are no where near to Afghan.--Afghansuperior (talk) 06:21, 21 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Repeating my point about Afghan vs. Afghanistani

Afghanistani may be a better term. However, the commonly used term in the English language is Afghan. Wikipedia is not a conduit for social or political change. As far as I can tell, we must use the commonly used term and wait for the media and English speakers to change their usage to Afghanistani. Once that happens, Wikipedia can follow suit. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia that culls information from other sources. Wikipedia is not a place for original research. In other words, Wikipedia cannot take the first step in changing language usage. We cannot be the ignition, catalyst, precident or pusher of a change in language usage. Wikipedia is merely a refection of culture. Wikipedia should not force a point-of-view onto culture. Kingturtle (talk) 06:26, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I totally agree.--Inferior-Tajik (talk) 15:05, 25 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Do not move this page

Aside from Anoshirawan and banned editor [User:Beh-man|Beh-man]], there is consensus that "Afghan American" is the correct title. Anoshirawan does not accept the July 2007 CfD consensus, nor the consensus reached on the Afghanistan talk page, see Talk:Afghanistan#Poll? et seq. --Bejnar (talk) 23:06, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Many in this article use Afghanistani rather than Afghan and they refer Afghan as an ethnic identity not a national identity. Afghanistani is a more correct term for this article than Afghan which has always been synonymous with Pashtun.--Anoshirawan 08:16, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

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