Talk:Monarch: Difference between revisions

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Sovergnine Baron

The entry concerning monarchial titles used by non-monarchs contains awkward and vauge refrences to the Sovergin Baron of Holstine. I suggest that it be cleaned up.

Monarchical power

There are about a dozen modern monarchs with substantial or even absolute power. These include prominent world leaders such as King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia. Therefore I've edited the article to make note that powerful modern monarchs are not, in fact, rarer than hens' teeth. Previously, the article had simply stated that modern monarchs are typically figureheads with little power. This could give the wrong impression, since the powerful monarchs are by no means extinct. If anyone has a problem with my edit, please let me know.--Mavisss 65.31.99.19 15:39, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Misc.

I thought we no longer used that 'czar' spelling for Tsar. STÓD/ÉÍRE 05:19 Mar 22, 2003 (UTC)

American English seems to favor 'czar', especially in such expressions as 'drug czar'. Salsa Shark 05:23 Mar 22, 2003 (UTC)

We should probably be using British English in this article, given that the USA doesn't have any monarchs. See wikipedia:manual of style

I agree. Tsar is generally used internationally to refer to the former Russian emperors. Czar is largely used by the US and a small number of others. STÓD/ÉÍRE 12:41 Mar 22, 2003 (UTC)

What do the Russians use?

царь, apparently.

First, people use Czar instead of Tsar for historic reasons. Czar comes from [[Caesar] and it's easier to see that with Czar. In someway it legitimized Russian monarchy in the West and reasserted it's claim to be the successor of the Eastern Roman Empire and the Third Rome.

Second, who said "We should probably be using British English in this article, given that the USA doesn't have any monarchs?" That may be the single most idiotic thing I have ever heard. It doesn't matter which we use but what does government style have to do with it? If this was about BRITAIN then maybe I could see you having somewhat of a point

Pace 80.6.82.237, I feel it's more useful for the list in this article to be of physical people, not legal capacities. Psmith 03:14, 11 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Kingdoms in Oceania

Please note, that only real, sovereign kingdom in Oceania is Tonga. Nauru is republic. Wallis and Futuna got three kings, but they have limited power, because this territory is part of France, governed by governor. This is only France teritory which keep kings.

Mrs. --Gerard von Hebel 04:25, 14 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

-agreed, the chief of Samoa is a monarch and I have added him to the list, though interestingly upon his death the position of Chief of State will be chosen by the parliament for 5 year terms, like a presidency. Nudge 20:42, 2 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

He is not a king, but only head of state for life. --Tauʻolunga 19:58, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

He is not a king, but only head of state for life. --Tauʻolunga 19:59, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Pope?

The Pope isn't a monarch, he's elected by the Church. Chris 02:51, Sep 5, 2004

Being elected doesn't make him a non-monarch. Whatever the deciding factor is as to who is a monarch or not, it is not formal inheritance. -- Jao 23:55, Sep 5, 2004 (UTC)

But he is still not a monarch, as I see it. A monarch needn't be a hereditary ruler, but he/she is a wordly leader, while the pope is a spiritual leader. The pope is head of state of the Vatican City state because he is the leader of the catholic church. John Anderson 23:13, 24 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That makes him a worldly leader (he's also "wordly" sometimes, too). One of his many formal titles is "Sovereign of the Vatican City State". Not all residents of Vatican City are necessarily Catholics, and for the non-Catholics, the Pope is merely their head of state, not their spiritual leader. JackofOz 23:34, 24 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

All right, but does this make him a monarch? I think not. John Anderson 02:01, 30 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is one of definition. There is an extremely hazy definition of monarch, so it's just not cut and dried who's in and who's out. The pope has for centuries been accorded a status higher than emperors - he even got to decide who the next Holy Roman Emperor would be. In the sense that he is a ruler who is the final authority over his "subjects", he has always been considered a monarch. JackofOz 03:57, 30 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, the electors of the Holy Roman Empire elected the emperor. The pope crowned him, but that's not the same as deciding who will become emperor. He was and is a sovereign and a head of state but that does not mean that he should be considered a monarch, just as the president of the United States or the Dalai Lama are not monarchs either. John Anderson 05:12, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Popes have always been regarded as elective monarchs. And no, the pope is not head of state of the Vatican because he is the leader of the Catholic Church. Vatican City is legally a state. It decides who its head of state is. Under its laws the person who is pope is its head of state. The role of "Sovereign" (ie, monarch) of Vatican City and pope are held by the same person, so whomever is pope is a legal head of state. That is why he appoints ambassadors and receives ambassadors. He could not do that if he was not a head of state. That is also why as a head of state he pays courtesy calls on the local head of state in every country he visits. As to your comparison with the President of the United States, that is just preposterous. The pope is always regarded as an elective monarch of a state. In theory the Vatican could separate both roles and have someone other than pope as its head of state. But it is unlikely to do so. FearÉIREANN

\^(caint) 05:24, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wouldn't the hypothetical female equivalent of pope be "mope" or "mome", since it comes from the same root as "patriarch/matriarch", "paternity/maternity" etc? 82.24.189.88 (talk) 12:07, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Denmark

Queen Margethe II is also Queen of Greenland -k

As Greenland is constitutionally a part of the Kingdom of Denmmark, I do not see how this can be so.--Pharos 21:10, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

She is Queen of Greenland because she is chief of state of Greenland. It's similar to Canada to Elizabeth II. So teechnically she is Queen of Greenland. Look at the Greenland page and it'll tell you.

As far I can see, she is Queen of Greenland only in the way that George W. Bush is President of California. Canada is not part of the United Kingdom in any way, so Elizabeth II is independently Queen of Canada. If, as the article says, Greenland is an "integral part of the Kingdom of Denmark", I cannot see how they are not under the "Queen of Denmark". Please provide some sort of official source if that's possible.--Pharos 01:55, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Independence: none (part of the Kingdom of Denmark; self-governing overseas administrative division of Denmark since 1979)

National holiday: Birthday of the Queen, 16 April (1940)

Constitution: 5 June 1953 (Danish constitution)

Legal system: Danish Dependency status: part of the Kingdom of Denmark; self-governing overseas administrative division of Denmark since 1979.

So therefore the nominal head of state is the Danish monarch, represented by a high commissioner, and the monarch today is Magrethe II.

 I found this information onhttp: //www.wifak.uni-wuerzburg.de/fact98/gl.htm

Many many non-sovereign monarchs

This website has been collecting some impressive info on Non-European royalty. Look at their page for Nigeria alone. It should be clear, looking at this, that we can never hope to put all monarchs on one relatively small list at the end of this article.--Pharos 05:56, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Aruba and the Netherlands Antilles

As I have understood it, Aruba and the Netherlands Antilles are both integral parts of the Kingdom of the Netherlands. If this understanding is correct, Beatrix is no more "Queen of Aruba" than, for instance, Elizabeth II is Queen of Gibraltar or George W. Bush is President of North Dakota. Please correct me if I'm wrong. -- Jao 18:14, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)

Yes you are correct, she is queen by name only. Were arguing on a issue we both agree on.

No, it doesn't sound as if we are agreeing. My point is that she is "Queen of Aruba" not even by name, and shouldn't be listed as such here, just as Margrethe II is not "Queen of Denmark, Greenland and the Faroe Islands" or some such nonsense (there was a discussion on this somewhere not too long ago). Aruba, the Netherlands Antilles, Greenland and the Faroe Islands are not monarchies. They are parts of monarchies. If we start listing parts of monarchies, there would be no stopping having Elizabeth as Queen of the Falkland Islands, Queen of Queensland, Queen of Ontario, Queen of Scotland, Queen of Wales, Queen of British Columbia... You get the point. The list would never end. -- Jao 10:13, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)

I changed "The Netherlands" into the "Kingdom of the Netherlands", since the latter includes the Netherlands Antilles and Aruba, of which the Queen is indeed not sovereign seperate from The Netherlands itself. -- kaivanmil 04:29, 8 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

A good solution. -- Jao 08:06, 8 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Beatrix is no more "Queen of Aruba" than Elizabeth II is "Queen of England"! <g> - Nunh-huh 08:07, 8 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see why Beatrix should be "Queen of the Kingdom of the Netherlands" instead of just plain Queen of the Netherlands. Margarethe II is not listed as "Queen of the Kingdom of Denmark" and I don't see a "King of the Kingdom of Norway" in the list etc. etc. Since the thing about her being Queen of Aruba and the Nl Ant. was deemed a non issue anyway, she should be plain Queen of the Netherlands. Just like other Kings and Queens of countries with overseas territories. --Gerard von Hebel 23:18, 14 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

As stated above "The Netherlands" and the "Kingdom of the Netherlands" are not one and the same thing. HRH Queen Beatrix is "Queen of the Netherlands" by means of a title, as she is "Princess of Orange-Nassau" by means of title also; she is however "Queen of the Kingdom of the Netherlands" by means of (political) function as a monarch - the subject at hand. -- kaivanmil 03:10, 30 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Time to take the list out?

Perhaps it's time to take the list out and merge it into List of current monarchs, and link to that? Alternatively, List of current monarchs should go. There's no point in having the list at two places. -- Jao 20:06, July 18, 2005 (UTC)

I would agree. There are some problems of concistency with this list. I can not see why Constantine II of Greece should be included. And while I like the fact that non-sovereign monarchs are included, I think it should be limited to those who have an official function where state law is concerned. For instance the monarchs of the constituent states of Malaysia and of the United Arab Emirates. And the kings of the Ugandan kingdoms, who still have an official function. I believe the Zulu King also still has a function in Kwazulu Natal. But otherwise traditional leaders should not be included. The Nigerian traditional monarchs have no official capacity. If we would add all traditional monarchial leaders the list would become endless. BTW what's up with this Patsy Rogers guy from this island off the coast of Ireland? Thats ridiculous. --Gerard von Hebel 04:42, 14 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Seems like a good plan to me. -- kaivanmil 00:49, 9 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Then do it now. Why are there still names in this list of people died or disposed half a century ago? --Tauʻolunga 20:03, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Reaction

Well Jao, there is a damn good reason to treat the Netherlands the same as other countries by indicating the KINGDOM with the name it uses in the United Nations, of course that Kingdom of is no part of the TITLE, but the link should be to the Kingdom of the Netherlands article, not to the Netherlands page. As the Kingdom is more relevant to the Queening than the country.

Queen Elizabeth's titles

Added in the Lord of Mann, and the Duke of Normandy, because they are the Queens formal titles in the Crown Dependencies, which are not formally part of the UK Nudge 20:03, 30 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The doctrine of the Unity of the Crown stipulates that the Queen, while her title is differently styled for each of the Commonwealth Realms, has only one sovereignty. That is to say, she is not Queen of Canada AND Queen of Australia. These titles are theoretically the same, only styled differently in the various Commonwealth Realms. In other words, these countries share a mutual "Kingship" and not a personal union. The Queen of Canada is so only in Canada, and not in New Zealand for instance.--Gerard von Hebel 04:52, 14 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

No, they are seperate Crowns. See this article. Richard75 19:48, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Often inherited

'Often inherited' is currently the only way we define monarachs, which isn't really that definitive. I know that there are a few cases(one case?) where the Monarch is elected so we can't use inheritance of title as a defining characteristic for monarchy. However my understanding is that all monarchs hold the post for life (unless deposed or abdicated). Are there any exceptions? I'm going to add it in the intro with qualifiers anyway. I'll remove the qualifiers if no-one comes up with an exception. DJ Clayworth 15:22, 6 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The Yang Dipertuan Agong is elected for a five year period. --Palnatoke 20:32, 6 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The French co-prince of Andorra is also an exception. Both are listed in the "Possible definitions" section. -- Jao 20:58, 6 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The text seriously overstates the prevalence of hereditary kingship and teh extent to which this is traditional. In fact, the Kingdom of England was elective until 1066, the Kingdom of France until 1179, the Kingdom of Poland until its partition in 1795, the kingdom of Germany until its dissolution in 1805, etc. Indeed, you could fairly say that European kingdoms were trraditionally elective, and that hereditary kingdoms were a late development. Agemegos 08:16, 4 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Tory Island

Should Pasty be on this list, honestly? He holds no throne by power, or tradition. From the sounds of it, its a cutise (cutesi, how do you spell it) local thing, not anywhere near the same legitimacy of the other people.

Ecclesiastical Monarchies

I can't help thinking that this article should have ecclesiastical Monarchies referenced at some point. I'm mainly thinking back to the Holy Roman Empire, where some Bishops and Archbishops, and even some simple Priors, Abbesses, and other middle-ranking Catholic clergy had temporal power over areas of land with just as much power and right to rule as any Prince or Graf did, under the Emperor's suzerainity of course. It's common to think of them not really as Monarchs as they weren't hereditary and their positions were originally instituted just for clerical matters, but in truth their positions were very much like the Pope is now, and was before - ruler of a (semi-)independent state for the rest of their lives, elected by another clergy figure (in this case the Pope), and not subordinating their rule to another for the sake of acting like a Clergyman. Infact, from what I have read many - especially those with larger territories to govern - acted more as Princes and only gave passing thought to their duties as Clergy.

It's tempting to just ignore this, of course, as one of the many different styles of rule in the Holy Roman Empire, except for the fact that it does still exist today, which is why I decided to bring this up. The Bishop of Urgell in Spain is co-Prince of Andorra in just as much right as the other co-Prince, the President of France, who is referenced on this article. I would just do this myself here and now, but I prefer to be reassured in my convictions, and to ask other people whether they agree with me. That, and I'm really not sure which part of the article I would put it in. Any thoughts? Falastur 12:24, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Sealand

I added sealand to the list of principaliteis Epg 02:51, 2 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Shogun

"Shogun" just means "general" in Japanese, and is still used in the JSDF(army). The de facto ruler of Japan was known as the Shogun because that was the rank he held, given to him by the Emperor. But it is used outside of the shogunate as well, which the note here does not reflect.

Also, Daimyo was used to refer to the rulers of the provinces, who were independent to a large degree until the end of the warring states era. Should we put that in, or are we keeping it to just the ruler of all Japan? Identity0 11:33, 24 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

God King

Should the term "God King" be added in here and explained here, or should it be its own article? A God King is a king who is simultaneously viewed as a living God, such as the Egyptian Pharoahs. There is currently no article for "God King". --Ihmhi 08:26, 26 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Add some then.--hnnvansier 12:19, 17 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Formatting - proposed change

By switching the {{executive}} box to above the image we will loose the enormous amount of whitespace between the title and opening lead (at least on my non-widescreen laptop). At the moment it looks awful. I'd be bold but does anyone have any objections first?Pedro | Chat 12:12, 3 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

List of titles

The list of titles takes up a fairly large portion of this article, while there is also Royal and noble ranks. Would merging anything useful into that article, and keeping the list of titles to a minimum here, be a good idea? -- Jao 15:27, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Splitting the article: Monarch and King

As of now, the article "King" redirects to this article. It seems to me that this article should be split up into Monarch, concerning the office of the head of state, its status and history in the world, and King, this European title, its etymology, its evolution, and its equivalents in different languages. These two topics are quite unrelated, with only a small overlap, and having them all bunched up in one article makes the article too long and bloated. And after all, virtually every other title of nobility has its own article, why should King be different? o 13:11, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly. See also my (somewhat misplaced) comment at Talk:Monarchy#Kingdom usage. -- Jao 13:39, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Good idea. Actually this whole article should go to monarch, & then someone can write a decent one on King. Johnbod 03:52, 30 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, surely we can do better than this. King is in no was synonymous to monarch! --Camaeron

First post-colonial American Monarchs

Although the article states "The first local monarch to emerge in North America after colonization was Augustin I, who declared himself Emperor of Mexico in 1822" Haiti had an Emperor from 1804 to 1806 and was a kingdom from 1806-1811. At issue here is if Haiti is part of North America. Perhaps that debate could be avoided and the issue cleared up by changing "North America" to "the Americas". [[1]] --69.132.214.171 01:17, 21 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Stadtholder

Did the function Stadholder also develop into what we now can name as a monarch? Demophon (talk) 10:35, 27 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Monarchy Wiki

I came across it the other day - anyone have its url? Jackiespeel (talk) 22:23, 4 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 59: / Line 59: @@
 :::::::Popes have ''always'' been regarded as elective monarchs. And no, the pope is not head of state of the Vatican because he is the leader of the Catholic Church. Vatican City is legally a state. It decides who its head of state is. Under its laws the person who is pope is its head of state. The role of "Sovereign" (ie, monarch) of Vatican City and pope are held by the same person, so whomever is pope ''is'' a legal head of state. That is why he appoints ambassadors and receives ambassadors. He could not do that if he was not a head of state. That is also why as a head of state he pays courtesy calls on the local head of state in every country he visits. As to your comparison with the President of the United States, that is just preposterous. The pope is always regarded as an elective monarch of a state. In theory the Vatican could separate both roles and have someone other than pope as its head of state. But it is unlikely to do so. [[User:Jtdirl|<span style="color:#006666; background-color:orange">'''Fear''ÉIREANN'''''</span>]][[Image:Ireland-Capitals.PNG|15px]]\<sup><font color="blue">[[User talk:Jtdirl|(caint)]]</font></sup> 05:24, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
+Wouldn't the hypothetical female equivalent of pope be "mope" or "mome", since it comes from the same root as "patriarch/matriarch", "paternity/maternity" etc? [[Special:Contributions/82.24.189.88|82.24.189.88]] ([[User talk:82.24.189.88|talk]]) 12:07, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
 == Denmark ==