Talk:Orthodox Judaism

Changes in article

The following change was made; however, I am going to revert it, and explain why. RK

Since there is no one unifying Orthodox body, there is no one official statement of principles of faith. Rather, each Orthodox group claims to be a non-exclusive heir to the received tradition of Jewish theology, usually affirming a literal.

Orthodox Jews really do hold that they exclusively are heir to the received tradition of Jewish theology. They publicly and repeatedly state that all forms of Judaism are heretical or false, with the exception of Orthodoxy. If that doesn't fit the definition of the word exclusive, then nothing does. Many Orthodox groups do not even respect the validity of other Orthodox groups. RK

to outright rejection of modernity as sinful. You have to have a narrow definition of modernity before you will find any Orthodox group who will agree with that statement. Ezra Wax

Well, of course few Orthodox groups would state that they hold this position in this language, because Orthodox groups don't use such terminology. Secondly, we are using a narrow definition of modernity. In fact, we linked to the definition that we are using. Please read it. You will see that much of what we call modernity is explicitly and/or implicitly rejected by Orthodox Judaism. RK

Core of Judaism seems to not be NPOV

'Orthodox Judaism is the core of Judaism and is characterized by:'

Seems to me that non-Orthodox Jews might take issue with Orthodox Judaism being identified as the core of the religion. Jdavidb 19:22, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps the last headline should read like that :"Core of Judaism" seems not to be NPOV :-))). Sometimes spellos are more than enlightening (Freud mentioned that..)

Why remove the context?

Jayjg, why did you remove the sentencs about two groups and label it as a possible "POV" violation? Wikipedia policy has always allowed, and in fact required, articles to differentiate between mainstream groups and minority groups. In an article on American politics, it would be factually incorrect, as well as a POV violation, to present NORMAL, the very tiny fringe political party to legalize marijuana use, as being of equal importance in the role that the Republican and Democrat parties play. Like it or not, NORMAL has failed to make a significant impact in the American political scene; the number of votes they get for their Presidential, Senatorial or Congressional candidates is less than minimal. Most Americans probably don't even know that this group exists. RK

Similarly, we have the same responsibility to accurately present Jewish groups. This article notes the two large Orthodox Jewish groups in North America, the Orthodox Union and its affiliated RCA, and the Agudath Yisrael. It also mentions the smaller group, the National Council of Young Israel. For the sake of completeness, it even mentions two tiny fringe groups that most Jews don't even know exist. Your edit of the article gives no such information; all the context has been deleted. These tiny groups have virtually no public support, let alone knowledge of their existence. Their inclusion on this webpage at all is grossly disproportionate to their size and impact; I added them for comparison, for their curiosity value, and frankly, because I sometimes have OCD in regards to completeness; I like to list every possibility, even the fringe ones. However, to be fair and give an accurate portrayal of Orthodox Judaism, we are obligated to note that these groups are tiny, are widely considered to be religious extremists - even by their fellow Orthodox Jews - and they are also literally unknown to most Jews. Without this infomartion readers of this article would be misled as to their role in the Jewish community. Of course, how this information is presented is important, and I agree with you that we need to present such info in an NPOV fashion. RK 00:57, Sep 20, 2004 (UTC)

"Fringe" is almost always inherently POV. With political parties you have a way of measuring these things; typically votes, perhaps funding or membership. But how did you measure "fringe" in these cases? "Tiny" is generally POV as well; most American Rabbinic organizations have at most a couple of thousand members; why would one organization with 2,000 members be "mainstream", and another with 650 members be "tiny"? And the statements that "most American Jews have never heard of them" applies equally well to Agudat Israel and even the Orthodox Union. However, most Orthodox Jews have heard of all of these groups, including the "fringe" ones. In any event, since no polls have been done measuring how many American Jews have heard of any of these groups, the statements are simply personal opinion. Jayjg 02:18, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The OU and RCA represent many, many American Jews. In contrast, the Union of Orthodox Rabbis and other small groups do do not. The reason is that RCA rabbis work in OU congregations; they represent not just an advocacy group but a large segment of the American Jewish community. That cannot be said to be true for the last three Orthodox Jewish groups on this list; they represent much tinier fractions of the American Jewish community. This is not "personal opinion". My sources include the Encyclopedia Judaica and "Piety & Power" by David Landau. RK 23:53, Oct 3, 2004 (UTC)

How old is the Judaica reference that calls them "fringe" and "tiny"? In what sentence does it use those words? Jayjg 01:40, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

This line bothers me.

" Orthodoxy can roughly be classified into Modern Orthodox Judaism and Haredi Judaism (Hasidic Judaism is a subgroup within Haredi Judaism)."

Their are many more groups within Orthodox Judaism.

I would argue thier are three main groups.

Modern Orthodox, Centrist Orthodox, Haredi.

And I would add that Hasidic Judaism floats somewhere above Orthodoxy, as historically it stands in contrast to the primacy of the halakhah, against mitnagdic Jews.

Many Inaccuracies

That article is far from perfect. Anyway, when I tried to fix one of the more terrible mistakes (Agudat Israel opposed Rabbi Hirsch, when actually his adherents were the party's founders), my edit was reverted. SHASHAZ 09:32, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Picture

Does somebody have a better picture than the one of the young men from Meah Shearim? It isn't a particularly flattering picture, and it also seems to me that that gesture might mean that they're not particularly happy about having their picture taken. Actually I think I'll remove the picture, and somebody can put up a better picture if they have one. --Ezra Wax 04:08, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I believe the recently added picture should be removed. It pictures clothing etc. which is not a requirement of Orthodox Judaism and which reflects only an element of a diverse culture. Either there should be no pictures at all, or there should be pictures which reflect Orthodox Judaism's diversity. --Shirahadasha 22:18, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I think it should be removed because it is too small to be of any use. Jon513 06:12, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

It's back, and I'm removing it again.--Shirahadasha 06:29, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Unrelated New Page: Brit-Dam

Please visit Talk:Brit-dam and add your two-cents.

—  <TALKJNDRLINETALK>     30 August 2005

BS"D

Changes to introduction and summary

The opening statement, defining Orthodoxy as the reaction to Reform, is misleading. Not only is this not a central, or even important, principal of Orthodox Judaism, but also most Orthodox Jews would describe themselves as the bearers of traditions greatly predating the advent of Reform Judaism. Most Reform Jews would probably descrive themselves the same way - not as reactants to Orthodoxy. In place of this, the opening paragraph should be a summary of the views which uniquely characterize Orthodox Judaism. These are the divinity of the Written and Oral Law (Torah and Talmud), and the importance of strict adherence to this Law and its interpretation and codification by the Rabbis of the last millenium, the Shulkhan Arukh in particular.

Since a discussion of some of the subgroups of Orthodox Judaism has been included in the introduction till now, it would be beneficial to briefly touch upon the primary issues and debates between these subgroups. The five points I have put forth summarize these issues well.

Hasidic Judaism and Haredi Judaism, while in agreement on many matters, are not really a single subgroup, and should be considered separately. There might be other articles in Wikipedia which should be changed accordingly. Both of these groups dress traditionally, but they do not dress similarly. They also disagree over the importance and centrality of Torah study - both agree it's important, but Haredi Jews typically emphasize it more than Hasidim. Additionally, Haredi Jews typically integrate into non-Jewish society more than their Hasidic counterparts.

Scorpiuss 07:48, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

BS"D Are you sure you're not referring to Hasidim and Mitnagdim? I thought Chareidi was a term which simply encompassed black-hat-communities, the Agudath Israel fold. yodamace1

My impression is that the term Chareidi is used to refer to non-Hasidic black-hat communities. I live in Jerusalem, and although I'm not exactly Chareidi, I have many relatives and friends who are. You might be right, though. The term "Lithunian Jewry" is also sometimes used to refer to non-Hasidic black hat groups, although these include those of Hungarian and Russian ancestry as well. I'll try to do some more research. Scorpiuss 13:40, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Haredi is used to refer to both Hassidic Jews and non-Hassidic black-hat/Yeshivish/Agudah Jews. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:38, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Btw, thanks to all of the people who have been editing the Jewish topics on Wikipedia. Thanks in large part to G-d allowing me to encounter Wikipedia, I am now a Baal Teshuvah for...well, something around 2 years now. Also, to the gentleman attempting to categorize Orthodoxy into 3 groups, what is "Centrist Orthodox"? I find that to be a really hard term to describe. Didn't make any edits, just trying to help my fellow Jews out. yodamace1

Yodamace1, I'm thrilled to hear Wikipedia has been such a help in learning about Judaism. It is a reminder to us all how much care we should take to represent topics in this field adequately.

Centrist Orthodoxy is a new-ish term for Modern Orthodoxy (I've also heard "Open Orthodoxy" used by some advocates), attempting to merge adherence to halakha with involvement in the world at large. It has such spokespeople as Rabbis Norman Lamm and Emmanuel Rackman. JFW | T@lk 17:23, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Thank you. Yeah, I just found out that R. Lamm coined the term...so I guess there aren't "three groups". yodamace1

Hebrew naming conventions

Urgent: see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Hebrew) to add your opinions about this important matter. Thank you. IZAK 18:25, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Introduction

The introduction currently contains a list of seven tennents, which seem to be a partly from the 13 principles of the Rambam (Maimonidies), as well as some other stuff that I don't recognize. "The centrality of yeshivas as schools of Talmudic study and learning", for example, isn't something I've ever heard stated by any of the past Gedolim (sages) as a basic principle of faith. Yeshivot (plural for yeshiva) are merely a method for transmitting Judaism to the next generation.

I recommend that this be changed to either the Rambam's principles of faith (the 13 "Ani Ma'amin"'s), or some other list which I can't think of now but has a similar solid foundation within Judaism. To have a bunch of people gather together and define Orthodoxy without either (1) citing where they found it and/or (2) having it come directly from age-old sources seems almost ironic in nature. - eykanal, 5:10 PM EST, Dec 12, 2005

Good point. Jayjg ^(talk) 18:46, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

So what defines Orthodox Judaism? What makes it different from the other denominations? This is a very tough question. The Conservatives have voluminous literature in which they claim adherence to the 13 principles, although this will be disputed by the Orthodox. Alternatives are the Albo's three Ikkarim: belief in One God, the Divinity of the Torah and Personal Divine Intervention. Even that is open to interpretation.

In all honesty, I would prefer basing the intro on the Albo, with a source. It may actually be worthwhile pointing out that belief in the eternal authority of halakha is the only true defining characteristic, as Conservatives generally hold that halakha is determined by time-dependent dynamics and can be revoked due to social/political/natural change. JFW | T@lk 22:55, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Uh, a word of caution... "Divinity of the Torah" is misleading...it should be Inspiration of the Torah". As for what defines Orthodoxy vis à vis "the other denominations", I would have to say that it's chief characteristic is that it is not a schismatic denomination, but rather a convenient catch-all for observant traditional jewish communities, in much the same way as "Mizrachi" is a convenient catchall for non-Ashkenazim and non-Sfaraðim. Tomer^talk 23:07, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Orthodox (United & Federation) Shuls in UK

UK orthodoxy seems to be missing. Could it either be added to this article or a link be made to another?

Rabbinical Worldvew

There is currently a statement, in the characteristics of Orthodox Judaism,

• Judging the world outside, at any point in history and time, by the principles and guidance of what is presented and taught in the Torah/Talmud/Aggadah/Halakha primarily through the viewpoint of rabbis and their rabbinical literature.

This is a controversial statement and removing it should not be considered vandalism. It does not describe all of Orthodox Judaism. Rambam, the founder of the school combining Orthodox faith with acceptance of scientific rationalism, pointed out that while the Rabbis of the Talmud were gifted halachists these gifts did not extend to all of human knowledge generally, and he described them as giving generally poor advice on medicine, astronomy, etc. Much of Modern Orthodox Judaism follows Rambam on this and accepts things like evolution, regards much of Agaddah and Midrash as legend rather than fact, etc. Moreover its very philosophy is to combine rabbinic and modern outlooks. This statement doesn't accurately describe all of Orthodox Judaism and it shouldn't be included here. It perhaps should be included in the description of Haredi Judaism, which often does not accept the descriptive theory of evolution etc. Shirahadasha

I agree with you Sshirahadasha. Although I'm not Modern Orthodox, there are certainly a number of things that could be corrected on this article. I changed the intro to the article from something that incorrectly indicated that all Orthodox Jews keep halakha according to the Shulhhan Arukh. This is simply not true... in fact, I'm under the impression that there are actually very few Orthodox Jews who try to strictly keep halakha according to the Shulhhan Arukh. Most Orthodox Jews more or less just use the Shulhhan Arukh as a framework of halakha to work with, but at the same time diverge from it on a number of points, instead following opposing views of any one of its many commentators. The previous intro to Orthodox Judaism also seemed to exclude Baladi Yemenite Jews, Dor Daim, ... even many Shami Yemenite Jews, as well as talmedhei haRambam (a fairly quickly growing community of Jews from various edot who keep halakha according to the Mishneh Torah)... and not to forget the Romaniote Jews, who don't/didn't claim to go by Talmud Bavli at all -- over Talmud Yerushalmi -- and although I'm sad to say that this small community is on the brink of termination, I'm aware personally of a non-Romaniote group of Jews here in Jerusalem who have adopted the same approach. Anyone who wants references should just click on the links to the already existing articles related to these various groups Omedyashar 02:50, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

"Legalistic"

The article states "Orthodox Jews maintain that contemporary Orthodox Judaism maintains the same basic philosophy and legalistic framework that existed throughout Jewish history."

The word legalistic, it seems to me, has perjorative connotations and is not a NPOV. It is a term often used to connote adherence to the letter of the law while ignoring its spirit. While Orthodox Jews adhere to the law, many would take exception to the notion that they do not adhere to its spirit. The term legal would be more neutral than legalistic.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mr. F (talk • contribs) .

Seems the same to me, but if you think it makes the article better, go for it. Oh, and welcome to wikipedia!. Just a helpful tip: if you type ~~~~ at the end of your post on talk pages, it will automaticly make a "signiture". This makes it easier to keep track of who said what. Jon513 17:45, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Frum here?

Is this link for advertising? Kari Hazzard (T | C) 14:15, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Contrast with other movements in Intro

Removed the sentence on contrast with other movements because the intro paragraph to other movements in judaism discusses only the subject movement. However, other movement articles have contrast and/or criticism sections or spin-off articles, and this one doesn't. (the Modern Orthodox Judaism and Conservative Judaism articles have both.) Suggest that such a section (or sections) would be an appropriate addition consistent with the way the rest of the encyclopedia is organized. Best, --Shirahadasha 01:51, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

No Criticism?

Why isn't there a criticism section? There's an entire page dedicated to criticism of Conservative Judaism - it seems a little unfair that there isn't even a small blurb about it here. Chaiya 04:29, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Be Bold. --Shirahadasha 06:20, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Shulchan Aruch and the word "developed"

The authority of the Shulchan Aruch is NOT claimed to be a fundamental tenet of ANY stream of Orthodoxy. The only truly fundamental texts in Orthodoxy are the Torah and Talmud. Any code, including the Shulchan Aruch is subject to scrutiny so as to ascertain its correlation with the Talmud. Claiming otherwise would imply that ARizal and Vilna Gaon are at best not Orthodox, and at worst, heretical. You may wish to argue this logical strain--but it is NEVER argued in Orthodoxy (and never has been by any significant stream or group of authorities). Some may have claimed that a certain person is heretical, but never because it desagreed with the Shulchan Aruch...but because it fundamentally disagreed with the Talmud. In his Introduction to the Chaye Adam, Rabbi Danzig even asserts that the Shulchan Aruch alone has NO authority per se, but that the true accepted codes of reference are the Beith Iosef and Darkhei Moshe, corresponding with the Shulchan Aruch (Caro) and the Mapah (Isserless), respectively. That being said, these works revolve around the Tur (Arbaa Turim), and are actually analytical works attempting to analyze scholarly discussion regarding Talmudic interpretation. Would you then say that the Tur is actually the true authority. NO! The Tur admits defending and borrowing heavily from his father, the Ro"sh, who is one among many Rishonim attempting to elucidate the proper meaning of the Talmud. THAT carries true authority.

The word "developed" was used to refer to the activities of the GAonim, Rishonim etc. I understand the temptation to use this word, however, develop may mean to bring into existence what did not before exist. Orthodoxy can be more appropriately understood if we use only the word "applied". The Torah, written and oral, is seen as a sufficient and coherent source of all understanding and wisdom. The question of whether other sources exist is a different question, and is usually answered in the affirmative. However, the question of whether other sources are reliable, how reliable those sources are, and how one knows which sources they are, are matters of great contention. The job of a Posek is to understand the situation at hand and apply to it the coherent Talmudic system. The wide reliance on preexisting codes is simply so that every Posek need not reinvent the wheel, and may utilize past modes and methods of analysis and application.

I shall adjust the article accordingly unless i hear objections 70.107.120.55Shigaon

I see no problem with the word "development". Jon513 10:58, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Ben Ish Chai and KAf Hachaim

It should also be noted that they are not appealing to the Ben Ish Chai's authority but actually to the KAbbalistic authority of the Arizal, who is being interpreted by the Ben Ish Chai. ~~Shigaon

13 principles

The article states:

Belief in the thirteen Jewish principles of faith as stated by the Rambam (Maimonides);

A1b2c3d8 (talk · contribs) changed it to:

According to many but not all, belief in the thirteen Jewish principles of faith as stated by the Rambam (Maimonides)

While there is disagreement among the reshonim of at what point one becomes a heretic there is almost no argument of the truth of the principles. And while there is some disagreement about the extend of a few of the principles (who wrote the last few verses of the Torah for example) no one orthodox rejects a principle outright. User:A1b2c3d8's edit implies that a minority of orthodoxy believes that some of the 13 principles are not true. There is no such minority. At the same time the 13 principles are not written in stone, there is no serious disagreement in orthodox about their veracity. Jon513 17:30, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Re:Dland's remarks on my talk page: I have read The Limits of Orthodox Theology: Maimonides' Thirteen Principles Reappraised by Marc B. Shapiro and his point is that there are legitimate opinions that conflict with the way the rambam stated a principle (for example the last few verses of the Torah were not written by Moses), but never does he quote any opinion that reject a principle outright. I am not against rewriting the sentence to be more accurate but the revision we are discussing makes it significantly less accurate. Jon513 17:39, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't have the book on me, and I don't remember every point that Shapiro made, but as for the example that you mentioned - the Rambam holds that you must believe that every verse of the Torah, down to the letter, was given l'Moshe mi-Sinai -- directly from Hashem. R' Yosef Albo and the Abarbanel (I think) would disagree with that statement, so in that sense, they would reject that principle outright. There are other examples as well, and I could probably dig them up on some JBlog or another with enough time and patience, even without the book.--DLand^TALK 17:49, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

R' Yosef Albo does not reject the principle. he believes it is true but not a principle of faith. That is, someone who does not believe it is not a heretic, but is simply wrong. According to the many opinions, one who believe that the books of the prophets are written by multiple authors is not a heretic but he is still %100 wrong - there is absolutely no orthodox thought that would support such a statement. Jon513 20:37, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Ok, so I was too hasty about R' Albo. But the Ibn Ezra definitely says this, controversially. Just look it up, Deut. 34:1. (I'm reading it right now.) Today this has been roundly rejected, mainly because the Rambam's view is the mainstream one. But to say that no Orthodox thought would support it is incorrect.--DLand^TALK 21:45, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Footnote-style citation

Hi! Wikipedia, in an effort to improve the quality of the encyclopedia, has created a template to suggest movement to footnote-style citation throughout Wikipedia. I've added it to this article. Footnote citations should give enough information to enable a non-expert to verify a claim, including edition and page numbers for off-line publications. See WP:CITE for more information. Because verifiers can't realistically go through a large list of books etc. to verify an individual statement, controversial statements which do not have footnote-style citations can still be challenged as unverified until they have a footnote provided for them despite the list of references at the bottom. Best, --Shirahadasha 22:15, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Hasidic Jews and The Baal Hatanya

The article states that Hasidic Jews follow The Shulchan Aruch Harav. I only know of one very unique and idiosyncratic (not to mention socially disconnected from all the other Hasidic dynasties) Hasidic group that follows it? Can you name others? Most Hasidic groups are Chaga"s, not Chaba"d and are unlikely to follow it.

I am adding Chabad Lubavitch. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.107.131.31 (talk) 04:45, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

In Practice

I edited the last paragraph of the "In Practice" section. It seemed to have been written with a very narrow perspective of Orthodox Jewish "practice". The paragraph mentioned, with no introduction, that (I paraphrase, since I already edited it) "Women never reveal their hair to anyone but their husbands... and orthodox Jews have large families." Both points are inaccurate and slightly out of context. If one were to mention Orthodox practice, I don't think the first thing that would come to mind is women hair covering, or large families. First, many orthodox women do reveal hair. Second, there is no real obligation to cover ones hair inside the home. Also, not all Orthodox Jews have large families, nor is it feasible for all Orthodox Jews to have large families. Also, there is no strict obligation for Orthodox Jews to have large families. Please correct my grammer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.43.246.129 (talk) 15:47, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Recent photo

File:Orthodox couple on Shabbat in Jerusalem by David Shankbone.jpg

The photo in question.

Re the photo of "Orthodox Couple on Shabbat": It is very doubtful that an Orthodox couple would voluntarily permit themselves to be photographed on Shabbat. For this reason, I am wondering if this photo represents a privacy violation. Is this different from any other situation where someone is photographed in a context where a person would obviously not wish to be photographed? My concern here is not with legal issues, but with Wikipedia's general approach to privacy. No encyclopedic purpose is served -- we could equally well take a picture of a couple on a Tuesday. Best, --Shirahadasha (talk) 05:27, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Israel has a very liberal Freedom of panorama law, allowing even works of art in the public sphere to be photographed with no copyright problems. The couple here were out on a crowded plaza near the Western Wall. There were tons of tourists and people milling about. They could not have had an expectation of privacy (the law in the U.S.) in such a place. So there are no privacy or copyright problems here. I actually think it's an excellent photo. --David Shankbone 06:13, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

The solution is very simple. Don't specify "on Shabbat." --Gilabrand (talk) 06:18, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Why not? If there's no relevant prohibition in Israeli law, and they're standing in a public place, which if they're that devout they shouldn't be doing anyway, I don't see why we need to rename a photo to protect the sensitivities of some haredim. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 12:31, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Would you care to support the claim that devout Jews aren't allowed to stand in a public place? That's nonsensical. I'm taking off the "on Shabbat", which is gratuitous and offensive. -LisaLiel (talk) 14:15, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Also, "Hasid couple" is like "Jew couple". It's "Hassidic". -LisaLiel (talk) 14:17, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

They should be at home resting. And in no way is specifying on Shabbat in the slightest bit justifiably offensive to anyone. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 16:04, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

You clearly have no idea what "rest" means in Judaism, or you wouldn't say such a thing. They aren't doing anything that constitutes melacha in the picture, so your statement is incorrect. Again. Furthermore, it is not only offensive, but more to the point, it's unnecessary and unverifiable. -LisaLiel (talk) 16:44, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Unverifiable? David, author of this image, may I ask you for what reason did you name it "Image:Orthodox couple on Shabbat in Jerusalem by David Shankbone.jpg". Was it taken on a Saturday by any chance?

While the couple are technically not doing anthing wrong, they are also not doing any of the recommended stuff either, which is what prompted my comment. And I think you need to stop hurling out claims of my alleged ignorance when you don't even seem to know what verifiable means. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 17:11, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

The WP:Arbitration Committee, in this ruling, stated that Wikipedia policies incorporate voluntary ethical obligations which are independent of law and legal duties. Generally speaking, Wikipedia should not report on non-notable private persons in ways they would regard as compromising. My concern here is with Wikipedia policies, not law. I understand the arbcom case was about an article rather than an image, but I believe the same principles should apply. Consider, by way of analogy, a serreptitious photo of someone taking an emergency bathroom break by the side of the road. Such a photo may well be legal. Many Wikipedians may well believe there's nothing wrong with nudity or natural body functions and people misguided enough to feel that's it's not a situation when they would want to be photographed are wrong and they should be re-educated to learn the error of their ways. Perhaps so. But for otherwise non-notable people the issue is whether the people photographed would feel invaded and whether they have an understandable basis for feeling that way, not whether Wikipedians personally agree with that basis. It's very clear to me that I could summarily remove a serruptitious photograph of a person taking a bathroom break by the side of the road and the Arbcom would back me. What's the difference here? I'm willing to ask the question and listen to discussion before acting. But legality has nothing to do with it. Best, --Shirahadasha (talk) 17:30, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

The difference being that one photo is of people standing around doing nothing and the other is of someone doing something they would generally never voluntarily perform in front of someone else. The two simply are not analogous at all. Maybe if the couple were kissing it would different because they wouldn't want to be seen doing that in public but just looking moody is hardly a violation of privacy. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 17:42, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

The WP:Arbitration Committee, in this ruling, characterized the policy this way:

Basic human dignity Implicit in the policy on biographies of living people is the understanding that Wikipedia articles should respect the basic human dignity of their subjects. Wikipedia aims to be a reputable encyclopedia, not a tabloid. Our articles must not serve primarily to mock or disparage their subjects, whether directly or indirectly. This is of particularly profound importance when dealing with individuals whose notability stems largely from their being victims of another's actions. Wikipedia editors must not act, intentionally or otherwise, in a way that amounts to participating in or prolonging the victimization."

You may well feel there's nothing undignified about being photographed on Shabbat involuntarily. But why should your values be the ones that control here? Take a closer look and notice how the couple is trying their best to look away from the camera. What feelings do you think their posture and body language are expressing? Best, --Shirahadasha (talk) 17:54, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

"But why should your values be the ones that control here?" I'm sorry, why exactly should yours? Because you're Orthodox and therefore Wikipedian values are beneath your own? I beg you to point out where in that above statement it says "Don't take pictures of people on their religious holidays" or indeed, where the photo in question "mocks or disparages" its subject. How are we "victimizing" these people by showing them, two people, relaxing against a wall? It helps to illustrate the article where it has been placed. You don't even seem to be bothered that the image was made on Shabbat, just that it is labelled thus. This seems to have little to do with privacy, victimization, or any of these policy statements you're quoting. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 19:11, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

• I'm having a great deal of difficulty trying to comprehend the issue you're raising. As a religion we don't believe in pictures taking away people's souls, and the fact that these individuals were photographed on what happened to be Shabbat, would not seem to make it any more offensive than if the photo had been taken on Sunday through Friday. The individuals do not seem to be avoiding a picture, which most people would do by lowering their heads or covering their faces, not shifting into three-quarter profile; I assume it was a candid photo. If the photograph had been taken at any other time, or let's say on Friday afternoon before sundown I presume you'd have no objection. Your analogy of "It's very clear to me that I could summarily remove a serruptitious photograph of a person taking a bathroom break by the side of the road and the Arbcom would back me." would seem to be rather far-fetched as a comparison to me or to anyone at Arbcom. Would you object as strenuously to a photo taken at the Kotel or inside of a shul on Shabbat or Yom Tov? Would labeling the photo as "Hasidic couple in Shabbat garb" address the issue? Alansohn (talk) 18:50, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Dev920, there is no law that says a religious person must "rest at home" on Shabbat. And there is no reason whatsoever to state that the photo was taken on Shabbat, or that it was taken near the Western Wall. The purpose of it being on this page is to show what a "Hasidic couple" might look like. It is an illustration, a generic image. The details are irrelevant. David Shankbone is right about Israel having a liberal policy on the subject of photography in public places. He can snap pictures to his heart's content, but that doesn't mean they should appear on Wikipedia with a caption that pokes fun at somebody's religious beliefs. --Gilabrand (talk) 19:10, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

I am well aware that there is no law, and I have never said any such thing. Generally speaking, we date generic images, and this is what I'm trying to do here. I have now changed the caption to refelect the date rather than the place (you can't see the Kotel anyway). But I love the way you're all speculating about whether this photo pokes fun of these people's religious beliefs as if we know what those religious beliefs even are. There's no law which says you can't be photographed, only that you can't photograph. Which is different, especially as the photo was taken by a non-Jew. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 19:48, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

I may be wrong here in thinking that the couple's posture indicates that they don't want to be photographed, but this is the way it looked to me. I'm open to others' input that my view is incorrect. I'm not suggesting that the couple is being mocked or disparaged. I'm suggesting that photographing them in a context where they wouldn't want to be photograph based on their own values (not necessarily mine) could result in a situation where they might feel their dignity wasn't being respected. This is a lesser and more amorphous standard than mocking or disparaging, and involves no issue of intent. I would note the encyclopedic benefit doesn't seem great - there are many images we could have chosen from which wouldn't have such a potential issue. Once again I'm not suggesting the photograph was intended to poke fun at anything. The only (much milder) issue is that this appears to me to be a situation where the couple, for reasons I can empathize with, did not want to be photographed. Best, --Shirahadasha (talk) 19:28, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

We don't actually know whether this couple gave permission or not to be photographed. David, did they know at all? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 19:48, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

The couple were unaware of my presence photographing them. --David Shankbone 21:27, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

It has just occurred to me, after reading Gilabrand's comment about Shabbat garb again, that the man in the picture is wearing a shtreimel, which hassidic married men only wear on Shabbat. To prevent misunderstandings, therefore, we should either find another picture of a hasidic couple (of the same quality), or clearly label the image as taken on Shabbat. Possible we should also add something about "shabbat garb"? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 11:13, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

You should read the article on shtreimel, which you linked. It's not only worn on Shabbat and Yom Tov. The guy could have been to a bris that day. Since there's no danger of misunderstanding, as you suggested, we don't need to label it as having been taken on Shabbat. -LisaLiel (talk) 12:26, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

So therefore it's even more important to note the occaison. Instead, you want to leave it as ambiguous as possible to suit your own religious views. Shall we delete the article on Reform Judaism as it does not conform to your values too? As an encyclopedia, it is our responsibility to give our readers as much verifiable information as we can, and this includes the dates of images. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 16:17, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Date, maybe. Day of week? Nope. There's nothing informative about stating it. It offends without any compensatory value. -LisaLiel (talk) 18:28, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

This is such an amazing non-issue; it is incredible that someone would object to labeling the picture as taken on shabbat. What is more germane, in my opinion, is why all the pictures are of hassidim? Could someone not find a picture of a non-hassid and post it? Many many orthodox jews dress in a different manner than hassidm- distinctly jewish, yet clean cut and sophisticated. Perhaps someone could post different pictures.38.117.213.19 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 16:34, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

My issue isn't with the label. Best, --Shirahadasha (talk) 18:33, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

The photo in question here does not have any connection to Shabbat. It looks like a Gerrer couple sitting around somewhere. Or perhaps it's another Hasid wearing a fashionable higher and thicker shtreimel. If the guy is wearing a spodik he is a married Ger Hasid (umarried males wear only black hats.) They wear spodiks (and other married Hasidim wear shtreimels) even during the week quite often when they go to weddings or sheva brochas or attend any sort of the plentiful family simchas that they eagerly attend during any day of the week. So there is no way this photo shows or proves it's about Shabbat only, it does not enhance the topic of this article in any way. It should go in the Shtreimel or Spodik articles. Thanks, IZAK (talk) 19:55, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

I personally don't know what the fuss is about whether it is Shabbat or not; but the photo was taken outside the gate leading to the Western Wall in Jerusalem, sundown, Shabbat. Whether other people choose to believe that is irrelevant and as a non-Jew I don't see how it being Shabbat makes a difference one way or another; still, it's just factual. --David Shankbone 20:12, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi David Shankbone: My point is not to question anyone when they took it. It is that this photo has no explicit connection or relationship with Shabbat per se. You may as well have taken photos of two goats walking through Jerusalem on Shabbat, it would not depict or have any connection to Shabbat. The photo does not show any Shabbat activity. It is just a Hasidic couple dressed up. Post the photo in the Hasidic Judaism article with a sub-title of "Hasidic couple" and it would be 100% spot on, but as it stands, this picture has zero connection to the subject of Shabbat itself. It's just about Haredi/Hasidic people sitting or standing around and proves and adds nothing to or about Shabbat. Thanks. IZAK (talk) 20:33, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

That makes sense. I thought it was a "controversial" statement and I couldn't figure out why, but that's a reasonable argument. --David Shankbone 20:40, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Cool it guys, let’s give David Shankbone the benefit of the doubt: He most probably took the photo using a “shabbat camera”! Chesdovi (talk) 19:45, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Without having read the entire discussion, let me throw in a remark. A couple going to a wedding / sheva broches / bris would not go to the kosel in their shabbos dress. Further, this dress is most definitely identified with shabbos - after all, it's called 'shabbesdik'. The picture was taken on the steps just before the kosel, above the bus stop and gate of the plaza, from where you see the Kosel, al-Aqsa and Har HaZeisim. You don't usually see people wearing shabbos dress there other than on 1) shabbos, 2) yom tov, 3) chol hamoed, 4) purim. "Hey, let's go to the kosel before we go to the wedding"? *confused*. One more remark: I personally wouldn't mind it if non-Jews photographed me on shabbos in a non-conspicuous way (I mean, I won't go shouting at them or so). But the woman in the picture most definitely does mind. Please read up on tznius. I can very definitely assure you that the woman in the picture would be very insulted by having her picture on Wikipedia. And rest assured that you will never see my wife on a picture on wikipedia! Signed, a shtreimel-wearing yerushalaimer chussid. --85.250.49.159 (talk) 20:10, 15 January 2008 (UTC)