Talk:Overtone singing

Harmonic Singing (overtones) vs. Throat Singing

allow me to express my sincere doubts about the statement "Throat singing, also known in the western world as overtone singing, harmonic singing, or harmonic chant". In most of the rest of the world people seem to know the distinction between throat (german: de:kehlkopfgesang and overtone singing de:Obertongesang, although they can be nicely combined. I recently uploaded examples on commons that demonstrate my point:

1. Media:oton.ogg Obertongesang.
2. Media:uton.ogg Unterton-/Kehlkopfgesang.
3. Media:uoton.ogg Kehlkopfgesang mit Obertönen.

If someone made an effort to disambiguate this article, i would suggest entering those sound examples into it. -- Kku 09:01, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

==

~ This entire article needs a review by a knowledgeable person. Although there is some clarification at the top of the page the term "throat singing" is later used to denote examples of harmonic singing. The terminology of these singing styles has long been interchanged by those who do not know or care about the difference and I hope we can add clarity to this page rather than continue to use the terms interchangeably. The examples of artists at the bottom of the page are also lumped together and no comment is offered of what particular style(s) they sing.

[definitions of Harmonic vs Throat removed for brevity. ~ HarmonicSpoke]

I also suspect the example of Italian "Cantu a tenores" performed by four male singers does not belong here at all. If it is the style I have heard recently it is neither throat- nor harmonic-singing. The style mearly (perhaps that is too dismissive) makes use of the interactions of the four voices to amplify particular harmonics (using constuctive interference - here it is the additive effects of multiple tones sharing the same harmonic) whithout an individual doing this job. If I am correct, this interesting example of the use of harmonics in other music could be referenced but moved to a more suitable location dealing with sound production and accoustics.

DC/Vancouver,BC HarmonicSpoke 07:11, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Which parts in the article are you referring to that use the two terms interchangeably? I agree it should be fixed. BTW, your description of throat-singing describes kargyraa only. "Harsh voice" here is a linguistic term. I'm not real familiar with the Sardinian singing, but I had read somewhere that one of the four male singer's part involves something akin to khoomei. It isn't s simple barbershop quartet. We should probably find a source to cite on that. --Stacey Doljack Borsody 07:53, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

For what regards the Sardinian singing there are two styles which must be kept distinct: one is the "Cuncordu", that I think is the one HarmonicSpoke probably was referring to; in this one there is no throat singing and the four male voices work together in order to produce additional harmonics - but I am not quite sure whether it is a physical effect or it depends on the response of human auditory system; the other one is the "a tenore" kind in which two of the four voices are guttural. I do not know enough to say whether these voices are produced with a technique equal or similar to the one used for khoomei, but I could point out some links for someone that is more knowledgeable than me to listen to; one is the one that I put in the article as well http://www.tenoresdibitti.net/, another one, that contains also some more detailed explanation, is http://levi.provincia.venezia.it/ma/index/number9/sardegna/sard.htm Pireddag 01:25, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

You are right - my definition is far too restrictive. I have gone so far as to remove it in shame ... and to spare future readers incorrect information. I do think the Kargyrra style of using the ventricular folds to create a tone an octave lower is heard in Tibetan Chant and other styles but, as I have so clearly demonstrated, I lack true knowledge. As far as using the terms interchangeabley I am also overreacting a bit and once again lack the definite knowledge needed to jump in and edit. First I was unhappy with the definition of throat singing as "[referring to] several traditional Central Asian styles of overtone singing" as I believe that not all throat singing isolates harmonics. In "Global Styles" it says "Arthur Miles, independently created a style of throat singing as a substitute for the normal yodeling ..." but, from the recordings I have heard, it is harmonic singing. The whole "Global Styles" section, by way of the second sentence, implies throat singing is used by all artists listed. It is here and in "Current Artist ~ Other" that some clarification would be appreciated. HarmonicSpoke 05:56, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Good catches. I took some initial steps to clean up Global Styles. The reason probably for the confusion stems from the history of this article. It used to be two different stub-like articles. One was "Overtone Chanting" and the other was "Throat singing" but they both contained basically the same information. For merging them I basically threw all information together and didn't bother much to go back and review. There is still a lot of work that can be done to improve it. The term "throatsinging" is commonly accepted as referring to a type of overtone singing, but I know what you are talking about. My personal definition for overtone singing has the harmonics being utilized to contruct melody. I don't think that definition can jive with a native's definition since for example melody is usually secondary to timbre in Tuvan styles. I think though that overtones are still heard and reinforced in other styles of throatsinging that don't have an emphasis on utilizing the harmonics for anything other than timbre. I guess it is time to go find some references. --Stacey Doljack Borsody 04:49, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

terminology

There is a technical limitation to this article - the correct Tuvan word for throat singing is "Khöömei".

This technical limitation no longer exists; article titles may now have latin characters with diacritics. Is there a standard Latin tranliteration from the Tuvan Cyrillic Хөөмей? I have also seen "Höömei" and I don't want to move the article unless it's the most correct choice. BTW, Tuva is supposed to be called "Tyva" now. --Theodore Kloba 15:19, August 3, 2005 (UTC)

The alternate spelling seems to be due to some ambiguity in representing the initial consonant in the Roman alphabet. I have heard the word pronounced by an American who spent some time in Tuva, studying the singing styles, and he pronounces the word with an initial sound that is almost, but not exactly, the German "ch" sound. The name of the region, of course, also does not fit well into the Roman alphabet. i strongly suspect that the Cyrillic X also does not quite fit. The language of the region is NOT Russki. — SWWright^Talk 19:29, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

You're right there are different ways in the Latin alphabet to represent that sound. I can't speak regarding the American you heard, but I can regarding Cyrillic X. Tyvan orthography uses Cyrillic X for that sound. It isn't necessary in this context to contemplate what the Russian sound is. There are also international standards for the transliteration of the various flavors of Cyrillic into Latin. The most common are 'kh' and 'x'. Personally I prefer 'kh' since I'm a native English speaker and it fits well with English orthography. --Stacey Doljack Borsody 22:35, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Tibet

"Studies measuring the frequencies of the throat singing and the brain waves of the monks have shown synchronicity in the brain, causing it to emit similar waves to those found in studies of silent meditation." Source? What does similar mean? In some sense all waves are similar patterns?

Theremin

Some styles of throat singing may be likened to a Theremin.

How? This makes no sense to me. If there is a likeness it ought to be better explained. --CodeGeneratR 20:13, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Makes no sense to me either; if we're going to be comparing to electronic instruments, the use of resonant filters in the subtractive synthesis found in analog synthesizers (like Moog synthesizers) is a much better fit. --Theodore Kloba 15:23, August 3, 2005 (UTC)

"Traditional central asian" technique?

I'm sorry, but this article directly contradicts itself by identifying throat singing as originating in central asia, then going on to say that it has existed in northern Canada, Italy, and South Africa for countless generations. I suggest the opening paragraph be modified. --RealGrouchy 03:38, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

The Northern Canada thing isn't really that much of a contradiction when you consider the Asian origin of native Americans. --Krsont 22:15, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

The northern Canadian version of throat "singing" was not--traditionally--singing, per se. It was a sort of chanting game, or contest. Using the technique to sing songs is a very recent development. The term "throat singing" appears to have been applied to it because it uses the same technique of engaging the ventricular folds as is used in kargyraa. -- Takwish 20:43, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Merging with Overtone Chanting

I think there shouldn't be a merge of these articles, but some major corrections made. To start with, "Overtone Chanting" should probably be renamed to "Overtone singing". Calling it a chant makes it non-inclusive of all the different overtone singing methods. Also the article for overtone chanting contains information about what is properly known as throat singing but seems to be lacking on the throat singing article. Secondly, throat singing is recognized by most Western throatsingers to be a subset of overtone singing. The distinguishing feature of throat singing is that one utilizes structures in the throat that are not normally engaged to produce sound. One can produce overtones without utilizing these other throat structures. --Stacey Doljack Borsody 06:08, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

I think that only applies to kargyraa. Sygyt and khoomei proper are also commonly called "throat singing" even though they only involve the normal organs of speech (I think). —Keenan Pepper 07:39, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Sygyt, khoomei, and kargyraa all involve the use of the ventricular folds (false vocal chords) in sound production. Overtones become distinguished from the fundamental by resonant filtering regardless of whether one vibrates the ventricular folds or not, which is why "Western Overtone" singing like you hear from David Hykes sounds so different. What you are hearing as a difference between kargyraa and khoomei is the speed at which the ventricular folds are vibrating, although some other throatsingers I know would disagree. There is a Japanese study I have to go track down again that shows this. --Stacey Doljack Borsody 18:11, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

I remember that discussion. As I recall, the researcher found that the ventricular folds did, indeed, vibrate during khöömej and sygyt; but that was about it. There was no discussion of relative amplitude of the vibration between techniques, or of the significance of the ventricular fold vibration over baseline laryngeal vibration, or whether there may be some kind of qualitative difference between the mode of vibration of the ventricular folds between the techiques (pretty likely, in my opinion). Also, no conclusions were drawn as to what effect the vibration of the ventricular folds had--if any--on the sound quality of khöömej and sygyt. Your original point, though, is still valid: throat singing is a subset of overtone singing. Even if the vibration of the ventricular folds is just an incidental side-efect of khöömej and sygyt, both of these techniques require a constriction of the throat that is not used in normal speech (except by Popeye). -- Takwish 20:34, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

In the interest of merging, it may still be possible to merge throatsinging into Overtone Chanting article if the article is renamed to overtone singing and separate sections are dedicated to each distint method. Then all the other separate stubs related to the individual styles could be consolidated into one article. I noticed that there is a Xoomii category as well that probably needs cleaning up. --Stacey Doljack Borsody 18:15, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

That sounds like the right idea to me. I think "throat singing" and "overtone chanting" could both be considered subsets of "overtone singing". --Theodore Kloba 22:56, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Looks like Overtone singing is a redirect to this article. I guess we should merge the info to here and worry about proper naming and redirects after. --Stacey Doljack Borsody 23:19, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Appearances in Western Music

Does anyone else here feel that the Appearances in Western Music section is getting a bit like a giant advertisement? I think it should be done away with completely. --Stacey Doljack Borsody 06:19, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I changed it to "References in Popular Culture". It still needs cleaning up, things like people who "allegedly" trained themselves. They either did or they didn't! In fact, "Western" artists who are using overtone or throat singing need to be moved to the "Current" artists section. The original intent of "Appearences" is a list of cultural references in so-called Popular culture. And it should be clarified what style is being referenced. --Stacey Doljack Borsody 19:34, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I know that Guy Mendilow practices overtone singing, however he uses his actual vocal chords instead of 'false' vocal chords to supply the base tone. He is definately producing two pitches at once, but I don't know if he using a subset of throat singin per se. He is also known for playing ancient folk instruments. --Geoff

damaged link?

Is it just me, or are all of the sound files in Brian Grover's site after the first incompatible with standard mp3 players? kwami 17:57, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

please contact brian, i've not had any trouble with them nor heard any trouble

see also

david lee roth ???

i don't think his vocal technique could be called overtone singing at all i think it's just squealing technique, anyone else agree ?

David Hykes

Does he really merit inclusion in the first paragraph? Some of the text is starting to smack of an advertisement. Note that the user that added his material has only edited on this page and one other (David Hykes).

I'll remove the first paragraph stuff - I just want a second opinion before I do it. Ggugvunt 16:32, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

References in popular culture

This section, recently removed, actually included only one reference in popular culture. The rest of the section was uses of overtone singing in popular music and movies. Since this seems notable, I will readd the section. Hyacinth 20:58, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Most of that information actually is non-notable and already mentioned elsewhere. Take for example the items you put under Use in classical music. Those are first of all not well-known classical music pieces. Secondly, you could easily integrate the core idea that contemporary classical music composers are incorporating overtone singing into their pieces into other parts of the article. Additionally, if you look at the articles associated with the list items, they already mention the influence. Kongar-ool's Wikipedia article already mentions about his collaborations as does the article on Bjork's album mention her working with the Inuit singer. Looks like someone could add the Geronimo info to Huun-Huur-Tu's article. Who cares about the Shpongle album? We don't need to create redundant lists of trivia in this article. Those list sections invite non-notable references that contribute nothing to the overall knowledge of overtone singing. Check out WP:Trivia. --Stacey Doljack Borsody 21:46, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Entries of the form "singer x appears on album y by z" add no useful inrformation to this article and should be removed. --Latebird 23:25, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Rather than removing information you could incorporate it into the article. What you just argued is not that the information is trivial, but that its presentation makes it seem so. Hyacinth 21:32, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. It is one of the suggestions for handling content in WP:Trivia, specifically WP:Trivia#Recommendations_for_handling_trivia and WP:Trivia#Practical_steps. --Stacey Doljack Borsody 21:39, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Article improvement

The article has become rather like an advertisement and I'm working on cleaning it up. Anyone have any suggestions? --Stacey Doljack Borsody 20:45, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm actually answering you here for following up on the discussion of December 2006 on throat singing in Sardinia; I have posted my comment below the discussion but I was afraid noone has see it so I add this note below a fresh comment. I am especially motivated by the curiosity of figuring out where is the position of the Sardinian singing relative to the various style of Tuva singing, and I was hoping that someone could clarify that directly in the article. Apart this, it maybe could be just enough to remove the too much detailed references on where throat singing appear (exactly what Latebird said) Pireddag 02:06, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't know enough about the Sardinian singing to comment. --Stacey Doljack Borsody 20:23, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Latebird, I would like to know why you removed my edits, considering them to be spam. They were not spam. They were links to the website of an artist who does genuine overtone singing. The sound samples page I linked to had examples of overtone singing for free download. If you consider these links to be spam, then I would be interested in hearing why a link to David Hykes's artist page is not considered spam. Thank you and blessings. Lupin1022 00:52, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Latebird. The whole section needs cleaning up. It has become a link farm similar to when the article had the huge list of artists (which I moved to a separate article). --Stacey Doljack Borsody 00:59, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your quick reply, Sborsody. I understand your point and would not have posted a link to my colleague's web site had I not seen that similar links to other artists' websites already existed. In fact, ten of them remain. Why was mine singled out?

I can't speak for Latebird's actions, but honestly it is simply that no one (like me) has gotten around to cleaning that section up. I suggest if your colleague is using throatsinging or overtone singing that you check out the List of overtone musicians and add him/her there. You can put the website link probably as a reference. --Stacey Doljack Borsody 02:45, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Production

Production consists of producing two musical lines at the same time, or for example using one's voice along with the rhythmic sound of a waterfall. A key element necessary to produce the authentic sound is that of "borbangnadyr", which means roling of the the voice. Within the production of two musical tones simultaneously, one tone is usually low. The second tone is more high pitched, well above the opposite sound. This higher produced sound usually mimics nature like sounds, for instance a bird or possibly some of the higher pitched stream sounds. Using these two opposite sounds at the same time is what produces the sacred throat melodies.

Moving this text here for now. This doesn't seem to fit under the Acoutics and theory section. It seems to describe specifically a Tuvan style or substyle (IMHO rather poorly). Also, the Levin book is not technical in nature. --Stacey Doljack Borsody 02:45, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Split of article recommended.

I feel that overtone singing in general (that is, just making overtones while singing) should be differentiated from throat singing, as it s very possible to make overtones without actually using Khoomei or Kargyraa voice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.231.226.39 (talk) 07:01, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

The article tries to differentiate this. You need to keep in mind that throatsinging is a type of overtone technique. I don't think there is enough information on either subject to have two separate articles. --Stacey Doljack Borsody 21:56, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Keep this as one article, with an explanation of each particular technique. It's not so large a subject as to warrant multiple articles on each variant, and a summary article connecting tham all--Jerome Kohl 01:41, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Diagram is true for Klarinet, but not for Overtonesinging

The diagram "Physical representation of first (O1) and second (O2) overtones" showes the harmonic serie of a pipe which is closed on one side, or a Klarinet, they have onely half as many overtones (every second) as the whole serie which apears when you sing overtones. But most people will not know what to do with the Diagram anyway, thats why no one complained yet. (sorry for my English, I'm german)