Talk:Alvin York

Filing date

"... led him to file as a conscientious objector at the start of WWI ". Surely the USA was not registering conscientious objectors as early as 1914? PML

For US citizens, WWI officially began in 1917. The wording could be improved I think. Stan 14:14, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Post-WWII, the procedure was that 17-year-old males registered for the draft, whether there was a war on or not, and the forms asked "are you a conscientious objector to war in any form?" I'm not sure they mentioned "on the basis of relgious training and belief" at that point; i won't rule out their asking that only if you answered yes.

It is likely that the crucial date was either whenever draft registration was revived, or when he turned a specific age, and that the wording has not accurate intepretation.

This may at least suggest what to research.

In the period i describe, BTW, it was possible to assert a CO claim later, but the only reason to put it off would be if you were initially in doubt; it should be obvious that you'd later be asked "Well, you weren't a CO when you registered; what happened in the meantime that we should believe changed that?" --Jerzy(t) 01:20, 2004 Mar 22 (UTC)

I've seen suggestions he was a marksman/sniper at the time of the event, that true? Sherurcij ^{(talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject)} 07:42, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I'd guess not, if the movie is remotely accurate. He was deployed as regular infantry. Recall, until after WW2, all U.S. infantry were trained to use aimed fire at up to 1000yd. The sniper specialty didn't exist in AFUS (AFAIK) until WW2. Trekphiler 14:35, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Alvin York's Registration Card is visible on the website of the National Archives HERE: http://www.archives.gov/southeast/exhibit/popups.php?p=4.1.11. He clearly claimed exemption from the draft. 68.187.192.107 01:04, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Replace Photo?

Can the photo be replaced with the one on the National Archives page (listed in the External Links section)? As it is originally from the records of the Selective Service System, I do not believe there is any copyright.

Sergeant York and the Great War (book)

I have the book Sergeant York and the Great War.

• His own life story and war diary.
• Originally Edited by Tom Skeyhill 1930.
• Edited by Richard "Little Bear" Wheeler.
• Enhanced with Pictures and the history of World War I.
• Republished in 1998.

(above text from title page)

ISBN 1889128465.

I read the book a few years ago. I will attempt to find time to re-read it and edit this article. I do remember something about his pastor being the same person that took care of the draft registration in that area. --Midnightcomm 03:13, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Christian or Quaker?

Christian? I thought he was a quaker? How come there arent' any quaker term in his biography? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 138.23.64.153 (talk • contribs) 11:47, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

No, Alvin York was a Christian. Your source of information is wrong. --72.154.212.10

The question of why "Quaker" isn't mentioned is a good one, but Quakers are Christians. See Religious Society of Friends. --CliffC 14:36, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Trivial Pursuit

I deleted "Once after being heckled by an anti-war protester, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld replied, "Good for you, Sergeant York." [1]". It may be of interest to us now, but it's hardly "legacy". More like trivia. (Speaking of which, did you know Douglas MacArthur was once called "the greatest general since Sergeant York"?) Trekphiler 14:55, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Passage about Religion

"York’s old friends tried to persuade him to go drinking, but he continually refused. It took a lot of moral courage for York to remain firmly committed to His Lord. But with the strength of the Holy Spirit and his personal resolve, York remained on the Lord’s side. This sharpened York’s character and moral courage, directly contributing to his heroic deeds in the midst of battle only two years later." Whoa. I understand that Christianity was a major influence on York, but this sounds like it reads from a Christian pamphlet about him. However, I can see incorporating something -like- this if someone has a source on York saying something like this. Otherwise, it needs to be rewritten. Any ideas? ninjapocalypse 22:42 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the question. Strong words about York's faith? Too strong for the times we live in? Perhaps, as many Americans today are squeamish about things of faith. But, your point is well taken and historians must cite sources. Here are the primary sources. This, as the article, is based upon York's own words. Please take the time to review the following sources. Please write back if you wish the complete dose of sources.

 Richard Wheeler, ed., Sergeant York and the Great War (Mantle Ministries; Bulverde, TX, 1998).
 The Diary of Alvin York, 18 October 2001 at http://acacia.pair.com/Acacia.Vignettes/The.Diary.of.Alvin.York.html
 The Diary of SGT York, 18 October 2001 at http://volweb.utk.edu/school/York/diary.html  
 Interview with Colonel Gerald York, grandson of Alvin York, in April 1996.  
 http://volweb.utk.edu/Schools/York/biography.html Alvin C. York by Gladys Williams
 COL Jeff O'Leary, Brave Hearts under Red Skies

From objector to soldier?

The article states he was an objector at the beginning of the war, yet ended up as a decorated soldier. How exactly did he go from one to the other? That seems like a bit of important information. 67.170.178.108 20:52, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Excellent question. The following answer is based upon York's own testimony - and not my opinion. Here is how York went from Objector to Hero:

Alvin’s world turned upside down in June 1917 when he received a draft notice. When he read, “thou shall not kill” in the Bible, he believed a Christian could not kill a human. However, he also believed that God ordained governments as instruments to be obeyed. Alvin York summed up this dilemma when he said;

"I wanted to follow both [the Bible and the US]. But I couldn’t. I wanted to do what was right…If I went away to war and fought and killed, according to the reading of my Bible, I weren’t a good Christian." (From York's diary)

With the assistance of his pastor and mother, Alvin York applied for exemption from the draft as a conscientious objector. His request and all subsequent appeals (three in total) were turned-down. This put York into doubt and confusion. He trusted God to get him out as what he perceived as doing something contrary to the Bible. He said:

"I was sorter mussed up inside worser’n ever.  I thought that the Word of God would prevail against the laws of men…”  
   

York did not see any way a Christian could serve as a soldier. Despite his doubts, he reported for duty to Company G, 328th Infantry Regiment, 82nd Infantry Division at Camp Gordon, Georgia. Providentially, York’s Company Commander, Captain Danforth, and Battalion Commander, Major Buxton, were both committed Christians.

Yes - this was a time when political correctness did not exist and people actually spoke about spiritual things at work wihtout fear of retribution from a Social Progressive.

Alvin shared his concerns with them and both Danforth and Buxton took the time to discuss how am man could not only be a Christian but also serve in the military. Buxton and Danforth knew their Bible and dedicated hours of their time to contend with York’s doubts. They literally walked through the Bible together to debate the issue. For every verse the commanders used to support their position on warfare, York countered. Finally, one night, Captain Danforth read Ezekiel 33.

"But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, and the people are not warned, and the sword comes and takes any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at the watchman’s hand." Ezekiel 33:6

With this, York stood up and said, "All right, I'm satisfied." Alvin resolved to serve his country and his God as a soldier. Armed with this assurance, he sought to excel in all that was entrusted to him.

Here are my footnotes:

 Extracted from York’s Medal of Honor Citation.
 Richard Wheeler, ed., Sergeant York and the Great War (Mantle Ministries; Bulverde, TX, 1998) 154-155.
 The Diary of Alvin York, 18 October 2001 at http://acacia.pair.com/Acacia.Vignettes/The.Diary.of.Alvin.York.html
 The Diary of SGT York, 18 October 2001 at http://volweb.utk.edu/school/York/diary.html  
 Alice Trulock, In the Hands of Providence, (University of North Carolina Press, 1992), 340.
 Interview with Colonel Gerald York, grandson of Alvin York, in April 1996 at the Presidio of Monterey.  
 Richard Wheeler, ed., Sergeant York and the Great War (Mantle Ministries; Bulverde, TX, 1998) 58-60.
 Above and Beyond: A History of the Medal of Honor from the Civil War to Viet Nam. Boston: Boston Publishing Company, 1985.

Andrews, Peter. Sergeant York: Reluctant Hero. New York: G. P. Putnam Sons, 1969. Brandt, Nat. "Sergeant York." American Heritage. August/September, 1981. pp. 56-64.

Castor, Henry. America's First World War. Eau Claire, Wisconsin: E. M. Hale and Company, 1957.

Cowan, Sam K. Sergeant York and His People. reprinted by Fentress County Historical Society.

Crutchfield, James A. Tennesseans At War. Nashville, Tennessee: Rutledge Hill Press, 1987.

Humble, R. G. Sgt. Alvin C. York: A Christian Patriot. Circleville, Ohio: Churches of Christ in Christian Union, 1966.

Lee, David D. Sergeant York: An American Hero. Lexington, Kentucky: University Press of Kentucky, 1985.

McGinty, Brian. "Alvin York: Soldier of the Lord." American History Illustrated. November,1986. Plumb, Beatrice. Lives That Inspire. Minneapolis: T. S. Denison and Company, 1962.

Price, Ed. "The Making of a Legend Alvin Cullum York." Now and Then Magazine. Fall, 1987. pp. 5-8.

Skeyhill, Tom. Sergeant York: Last of the Long Hunters. Chicago: John C. Winston Company, 1930.

Valuska, David L. "Valor in the Trenches--The Sgt. York Story." Valor. December, 1986. pp. 50-55.

Weddle, Ethel H. Alvin C. York: Young Marksman. New York: Bobbs-Merrill Company, 1967.

Franke, Anton, General der Artillerie. Die 2. Württemberger im Weltkrieg 1914-1918, (Berlag Berger’s Literarisches, Stuttgart, 1921).

Horne, Charles F. ed., Source Records of the Great War, vol. VI 1918, (National Alumni: USA, 1923).

Erich Ludendorff, My War Memories 1914-1918, Hutchinson & Co., London 1919.

The European War. Vol XVII, October – November – December 1918. New York Times Company, New York, NY: 1919.

Fromm, Ferdinand Oberst. Das Württembergishche Landwehr Infanterie Regiment nr. 120 im Weltkrieg 1914-1918, Band 4. Stuttgart, Belser: 1920.

Kling, Rektor. Das Württembergishche Landwehr Infanterie Regiment nr. 122 im Weltkrieg 1914-1918, Band 27 Stuttgart, Belser: 1923.

Laepple, D. Das Württembergishche Landwehr Infanterie Regiment nr. 125 im Weltkrieg 1914-1918, Band 38 Stuttgart, Belser: 1926.

Lee, David D. Sergeant York: An American Hero. Lexington: University Press of Kentucky, 1985.

Offizierverin, Mitglieder Verzeichnis des Offiziervereins, Inf-Regt. Kaiser Wilhelm Konig von Preussen (2. Württ.) Nr. 120. (Stuttgart Augustenstr. 13, 1937).

In the movie "Sergent York", it shows an army officer counter York's phrases from the bible with other phrases in the bible. He also lends him a book called "The History of the United States of America". I'm not sure if that is true to history, but that movie is supposed to be extremely accurate. Can anyone verify? Mattbash 01:09, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Citations

Could the author who is excerpting from a "book bt Lt. Col. Douglas Mastriano" please add more formal citations as soon as they become availible. Also, you can cite teh same sources that Col. Mastriano will cite himself in his book. --Cjs56 17:28, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Great information on the SGT York Website www.sgtyorkdiscovery.com

This needs to be addressed

"(portions of the above are from an extract of a book being written by US Army Lieutenant Colonel (LTC) Douglas Mastriano - used by permission)."

This is not sufficient. Who was permission given to, where is it documented? Gaining permission to use copyrighted material on Wikipedia is a formal process. See WP:COPYREQ. -- Mufka ^{(u) (t) (c)} 15:13, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

WPMILHIST Assessment

Some very nice work. The citations need some cleaning up, however. WP:CITE contains some suggestions for citation formats. Also please note that is it your use of spaces/indents as opposed to asterisks which generates that hideous box instead of a clean bulletpointed list of sources. Thank you. LordAmeth 19:16, 13 May 2007 (UTC)your mama

Bible Passages

Does anyone know what bible passages York read that convinced him his religion would be accepting of him becoming a soldier? Jgprentice 01:18, 30 May 2007 (UTC)jgprentice

Earlier in the talk someone quoted Ezekiel 33: ""But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, and the people are not warned, and the sword comes and takes any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at the watchman’s hand." Ezekiel 33:6 --Cjs56 02:02, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Of course, York would have read it in the rather more poetic King James version: "But if the watchman see the sword come , and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned ; if the sword come , and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand."12.214.62.215 (talk) 13:36, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Combat description

The details of the fight near the railroad need to be checked. My recollection from reading is that although York's unit was pinned down under heavy fire, it was not subject to MGs from three sides and a simultaneous artillery barrage.

ANSWER: The German records are clear (something lacking in most American research of York). The Germans did engage from ALL three surrounding terrain features. By far the best desciption of this action is by an Army Lieutenant Colonel Douglas Mastriano and it was published in the September 2006 issue of Military History. I recommend you read this for details. It is from the German pont of view.

http://www.historynet.com/wars_conflicts/world_war_1/3717286.html

Cheers

ANSWER part II - Yes! The Germans did defend against the American attack from all three sides! The Southern Ridge where York fought was defended by the German 2nd Machine Gun Company, reinforced by the 7th Bavarian Co. The hills to the west (in front the Americans) was defended by the 120th German Landwehr and a battalion of the 125th German Landwehr. Finally, the hill to the north was defended by the 125 German Landwehr and the German Elizabeth Guards (it was a monarchy at the time - divided between an emporer and three kings). This is an amazing story of divine intervention. Wow!

Religious

York's religious convictions are central to the story.

Yes, York's faith is important to his story, but the article is seriously flawed as it is written evangelically. --Cjs56 02:54, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I differ with my social-progressive friend above. There is no flaw with the story. I appreciate the clarity of the story and it is one of those few WIKIPEDIA articles that is factual and yet interesting. Anyone with journalistic background can appreciate this. Thanks for having the courage to break-out the truth! I can't wait for the book! Phillip K. 29 August 2007

I'm sorry, but the problems the user above mentioned have ZERO to do with "social progressivism" and everything to do with the proper way to write an encyclopedia article. There are issues with how this article is written, and not just how it mentions York's faith. It needs work! Will 140.107.0.226 21:59, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

York's Faith

It is refreshing to have an honest and accurate article in Wikipedia about York's faith. This faith is what makes the York story different from the average war story and biography. The article helped to explain to me why there was something different about York and I now understand. Thanks for the excellent article that put everything together in a clear and very well documented manner. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.33.134.114 (talk) 05:29, August 23, 2007 (UTC)

Post War Life

Does anyone have further information on York's postwar life. This section needs serious attention and leaves one with an empty feeling. What happened beyond building a school? This would be a welcome and useful edition to the article far more than word-smithing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.205.207.5 (talk) 03:14, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I certainly think the info would be interesting and improve the article. I'd love it if somebody added some... although we would all do well to remember Wikipedia:No original research

Actionsquid 19:22, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Explaining rewrite

Someone researching Alvin York added a large amount of text, but is new to Wikipedia and formatted it poorly. I've integrated it into the existing text, fixed some of the formatting issues, and removed some of the more exuberant prose. If anyone can reformat the long list of references to inline citations, that would be cool. I don't have access to the print sources right now. Natalie 05:21, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Natalie Erin did a good job of summarising some of the bloated bits, and I used her earlier version for inspiration. I don't get why her edits got reverted; I though they were a big step in the right direction.

I attempted to fix the awkward, poorly-written, and rambling bits, and to simplify and clean up the article overall. There was a lot of droning on in the post-war section, and some of it looked possibly like original research. I also tried to streamline the discussion of the combat that led to Sgt. York's MOH without taking out anything vital. There was also some really drawn-out discussion of York's faith that devolved into a sort of conversational "question and answer" thing... I tried instead to incorporate info about his faith into the different sections in a more balanced way that should make the whole think flow better while still highlighting his beliefs where relevant.

Actionsquid 19:53, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

What is with the revert to the older version without a word of explanation? (And thanks to the user who restored it!) I don't think my attempt at cleanup was perfect, in fact there was still a lot of work to do, but why not discuss it, and why not try to come to some kind of consensus about how we do it.

Is the issue that I trimmed some of the really LONG bits on York's faith? They were way long, they didn't flow, and the way much of them were written didn't belong in a Wikipedia article. I kept info about his faith in the "Early Life" section, in a shortened bit on his discussions with his commanders, in what he said about his deeds that earled him his MOH, and there's mention of it in the "Post War section. If we really need more, then please tell me how to add some more and still prevent if from making this article unwieldy.

I don't have an agenda; I just stumbled on this article and wanted to try to clean it up a bit. Could we try to cooperate on it? I don't see how anyone can argue that the previous version wasn't poorly written. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.107.0.226 (talk) 16:23, August 30, 2007 (UTC)

Improvement

Thanks to Mr/Mrs. 82.205 for the hard work! This article is shaping up.

One small thing, though. I don't like the change to the word "conversion", because Sgt York was already raised Christian. Whether he strayed from his faith or not, re-discovering the faith you were raised with can't really be called a "conversion", can it? I agree that "re-awakening" is not perfect, but what, then? 140.107.0.226 18:16, 7 September 2007 (UTC) Didn't sign in, oops! Actionsquid 18:22, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Hello! On second thought - you are correct. I thought about this over dinner and came to the same conclusion. Your word is much more appropriate. Sorry for the less than accurate change.

Overall, the article has the potential to be quite good. Thanks for your work on it. Whenever I have a few minutes I open it and contemplate as to how to shape the article a bit more.

I see that LTC Mastriano placed an interesting photo in the image section of WIKIPEDIA - that depicts York moving his prisoners from the battlefield. It would be a nice edition to the article. However, it is beyond my current capabilities as to how to place it in the article without it being too big. Thoughts? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.205.207.5 (talk) 08:23, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

You can resize images by piping a pixel size after the image name. So if the image was called image.jpg, and you wanted it to be 250 pixels, you would type image.jpg|250px, and enclose it within straight brackets. If you provide the image name I could add it for you. Natalie 21:30, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Copy vio

The following passage was copied from http://www.autographdomain.com/detail.aspx?ID=4467 (or it appears to have been, copyright date on that page is 2000)

"On 8 October 1918, York's battalion was involved in an attack that would earn him a Medal of Honor. The mission was to take the German Decauville rail-line, thus cutting off lateral support behind the German lines and force the Germans out of the Argonne Forest. This forest was in the German hands for four years and was heavily fortified. The attack took the 328th into a funnel shaped valley, which became narrower as they advanced. On all three sides of the valley were steep ridges, occupied by German machine gun emplacements and infantry troops. As the Americans advanced, they encountered intense German machine gun fires from the left and right flanks and the front. Soon, German artillery poured in upon them, forcing the American attack to stall. The Americans were caught in a deadly cross-fire."

The only difference is that an extra sentence was added to the middle. I've replaced this passage in the article with a short connector to the next part. This needs to be rewritten and put back. -- Mufka ^{(u) (t) (c)} 02:47, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Relevance?

Under "Early Life" the last sentence reads

"He has a relative named Alex Lefebvre"

What is the relevance of this?
Mullhawk (talk) 02:59, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

• That was vandalism. It has been deleted. --Orlady (talk) 04:20, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Ok, thanks.
    Mullhawk (talk) 19:47, 17 February 2008 (UTC)