Talk:Kung Pao chicken

Signature of a dish?

Everyone who eats in restaurant or prepares his/her own meal should notice there are many variations of the same dish by different chefs. Sometimes it is hard to tell what is the signature of a dish. e.g. if you take out the allergenic peanuts, can the dish still be called Kung pao chicken anymore. For example, a chicken-less Kung Pao chicken does not make sense. The chicken part is obvious in the name. If you replace chicken with pork, can you called it Kung pao pork instead? However, does a peanut-less Kung Pao Chicken make sense? Another example: if you don't stir fry the dish but simmer the same ingredients like a stew, can you still call it kung pao? What are the "must have" in the dish before the dish's variations lose their identity? This kind of signature information is often missing in almost all cookbooks. Kowloonese 18:13, May 23, 2005 (UTC)

According to Sichuan lore, the dish was actually referred to as "Lazi jiding" (hot chicken cubes) before the "palace guard" came to Chongqing and grow so found of the version with peanuts in it that the local leaders rename it in his honour. The sine qua non of the dish are chicken, peanuts and chili. Without chicken, it is still usually referred to as "gongbao" though (e.g., gongbao shrimp/pork etc.). Berox 22:40, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Great; if this is verifiable (is there a reference?), then go ahead and add this information to the article. It is a different story than the legend of how Gong Bao ordered them to whip it up from odds and ends. Badagnani 22:48, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Heck it doesn't even need the chicken (or other meat) sometimes. A company by the name if SimplyAsia made instant noodles accompanied with just the sauce. --— Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.132.22.219 (talk • contribs)

Finding an ok reference is no problem, but I hesitate to edit anything in the entry as it stands now. Reasons below. Berox 22:51, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Why not move the American Kung Pao?

Recipes doesn't belong in Wikipedia, as I understand it, but should be included in the wiki cookbok instead. Once there, strange things like trying to flambé with 15 % alcohol, or at all using Shaoxing wine in Sichuan, can be dealt with. Without mercy ;) Berox 22:48, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Don't worry; this article isn't a recipe though it does give ingredients and basic cooking technique (like Fried rice). Badagnani 23:07, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Peppercorns and Jargon File Reference

Two corrections I'm making. First, the removal of Sichuan peppercorns from the recipe has nothing to do with "Western tastes" and everything to do with the fact that, until 2005, it was illegal to import them to the U.S. because they could carry a disease that would harm citrus crops (check the entry for Sichuan peppercorns). Second, the reference to Chernobyl chicken is a misreading of the Jargon file--while Chernobyl chicken is described in the laser chicken entry (which is appropriately in reference to Kung Pao), the former does not actually describe kung pao chicken, but lemon chicken. Junkmale 17:28, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I recall eating Sichuan peppercorns in the U.S. (usually as part of a commercially available mix of black, white, green, red, and Sichuan peppercorns) over a period of years. I wonder how these companies got around the restriction. Badagnani 02:30, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Bootleg CDs are still illegal to import, but I've seen a few of those in stores from time time, too. ;) Junkmale 02:59, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Interesting! As far as "nothing to do with 'Western tastes'" I have to say that as an American visiting Beijing for the first time last October and eating in a Hunan-style restaurant, I had difficulty finishing the Sichuan-peppercorn-loaded eggplant dish, even though really like eggplant and love to try new things. But this spice, with the numbing, tingling effects it has on the tongue (and especially when used in such large amounts) was a bit hard for me to deal with. Badagnani 03:50, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Current status as of 05/04/06

Badagnani- nice work ordering it all under two main headings. I think this gives the article much needed structure. In my last edit, I've placed the "westernized version" first, just because most english language speakers looking at this entry will be used to the Kung Pao version. Also just tightened some phrasing. All in all it's looking a lot better. Djwatson 12:54, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks; as I usually do I tried not to delete anything because it was clear you and previous editors who cared enough about this subject to write about it here knew what you were doing. But there are still questions as to the exact differences in preparation and ingredients between the Chinese and North American versions. The ingredients for the North American version are stated clearly--it's cut and dried because everyone makes it this way. However, I believe the Chinese version's ingredients and preparation should be stated as clearly. Also, it is not clear which version the recipe given is for: Western or Chinese. Badagnani 21:32, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Peanuts

What does it mean that the peanuts are "roasted in a sweet batter"? That doesn't make sense. The peanuts I've seen in kung pao are just peanuts, not coated in any kind of batter. Do you mean they're fried like tempura? That's strange as I've never seen kung pao made in this way. Can you please explain? Badagnani 17:29, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

The user who added that phrase is User:BestEdit. I recently had to revert every single one of that user's edits as vandalism -- except this one, which I could not tell. I decided to just correct the spelling, not knowing whether or not the edit was valid. Considering that the user has made no other non-vandal edits, however, I would not be surprised if this one was also inaccurate. Powers 01:25, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks -- a scan of various kung pao chicken recipes online shows that the peanuts are always added at the very end of the cooking, the opposite of what that editor stated. Badagnani 01:37, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I guess it is just different variations in the preparation. In many authentic Chinese receipes, fresh peanuts (i.e. moist nuts, meaning not roasted) are often used instead of roasted peanuts. In such situations, the peanuts are dropped into the hot oil on the bottom of the wok until they are deep fried to golden brown before other ingredients are thrown in. The problem is that fresh peanuts are hard to find in the US. So the chefs in the US just take a short cut and sprinkle roasted nuts out of a "Planters" can instead of starting from fresh ingredients. I am not from Sichuen, but it is not hard to believe the original receipe by BestEdit might have been more authentic than the US version. Kowloonese 02:16, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Hoisin sauce

The preparation section of this page does not mention using Hoisin sauce. Also, the page on Hoisin sauce does not mention any use in Kung Pao chicken. Also, this page warns against using Hoisin sauce in Kung Pao chicken. http://www.foodnetwork.com/food/my_recipe_box/review/0,1973,FOOD_9919_24748,00.html .

Similarity to other online articles

If the text here has a similarity to another online article about Kung Pao chicken, the explanation is most likely that that website copied from the Wikipedia article's text, as is so often the case. Scan the edit history and you'll clearly see this. Badagnani 00:56, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Badagnani for quickly identifying the error. Marrilpet: as a member of the cleanup taskforce you should know better. Check your facts (ie, the history of this article) before you go slapping on copyright infrigement notices. Fortunately Badagnani sorted this out. What concerns me is, how many incorrect claims have you made about other articles? What an insult to your fellow Wikipedia contributors. You should clean our your virtual desk, so to speak. Djwatson 05:52, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Edited on 21 Jan 2007

I had to write here as the "Edit summary (Briefly describe the changes you have made)" box has a limit and can't write too long there. Multiple corrections & additions:- corrected wrong Mandarin PinYin, Added 2 types of Cantonese PinYin, Added photo for Chinese version of Gong Bao Chicken, swapped position of Western and SiChuan version (since it is a Chinese dish, SiChuan version should be explained 1st), added the fact that cashew nuts are also used besides peanuts, all external links and references are grouped into the “References” section at the bottom, and other changes.Michelle Saw 03:10, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Can you explain the diacritics used as tone marks for Cantonese? I've not seen those marks before. How does one get all six tones (i.e. what are all the marks used)? Badagnani 03:12, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Question abount the chilies used

The article mentions two natives types of chilli: cháo tiān jiāo (朝天椒) and qī xīng jiāo (七星椒). After some research, it seems that the former is a long, slim type, perhaps the one typically sold in Chinese supermarkts while the second is shaped like a cone. I also think these are identical to the chillies referred to in cookbooks as "facing heaven" and "seven stars", though the former is described "plump" in Fuchsia Dunlops "Land of Plenty" Sichuan cookbook. Is this right?

A related Chinese Chilli question: I keep hearing about "tien tsin" chillies, e.g., here: http://www.penzeys.com/cgi-bin/penzeys/p-penzeystientsin.html. Are these related to any of the two, or are they a third type? How would "tien tsin", obviously an outdated transcription, be written in Chinese logograms? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.73.20.145 (talk) 01:34, 5 February 2007 (UTC).

I don't know the answer to the first question, but "Tien tsin" is doubtless the old Wade-Giles spelling for Tianjin (天津), a northern city near the Pacific Coast of China, just east of Beijing. Hope this helps somewhat. Badagnani 01:43, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for the quick answer. Any idea what the connection of the Sichuan chilli with an East Chinese site may be? Trading port? Cultivation area? Some kind of confusion arising from the sign 天 in both the name of a chilli and the town? 88.73.20.145 02:42, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I'd say the Tianjin chilies are probably grown in farmland near to Tianjin, or else chilies grown elsewhere but of a variety considered central to the cuisine of that city. This can be determined by looking at Chinese websites about the chili, which some of our Chinese-language experts can do if we ask them. Contrary to popular belief, chilies are not only used in Sichuan, but in many other regions as well. Cantonese cuisine is not big on chilies, but I believe places like Yunnan, Shaanxi (you can see lots of shots of chilis growing in Shaanxi in the Zhang Yimou film The Story of Qiu Ju), Guangxi, Shandong, etc. also use them. Badagnani 03:37, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Great to see some passionate discussion about the nuances of Chinese food. 88.73.20.145 (please sign your name next time), cháo tiān jiāo is literally "face heaven pepper" and is indeed mentioned in the cookbook "Land of Plenty". However, these are rarely sold in "asian" supermarkets. Most often the chillis you will see in these places are from Thailand.

I've yet to find proper cháo tiān jiāo outside of China. There are a number of distributors you can contact in China regarding importing these. Cháo tiān jiāo appear short and fat, growing as their name suggests facing the sky. Of course, there are varieties of cháo tiān jiāo, but generally they are not so much long and thin.

Be careful with your research. Many Western names for Chinese ingredients and dishes are incorrect, contradictory or just plain wrong, and often evolve into being something totally different and separate all together. The link you posted suggests Tien Tsin chilli is used for "asian" cooking. Case in point. In answer to your other question, of course all chilli is related but there are countless types. If you're asking down to the actual molecular makeup of the different types... I have no idea. Also... Chinese "logograms"... lol, just say "Chinese characters".

As well as the regional cuisines you mentioned Badagnani, Hunan Cuisine also features the chilli in many interesting and tasty recipes. Djwatson 01:45, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Image of traditional dish looks different from what I had in China

I was recently in China, and had Kung Pao chicken in Shanghai at a Sichuan restaurant highly recommended to me by a professor originally from Sichuan province, and took a photo of the dish I was served.

Looking at this article, I was a bit surprised at how different the photo of the "traditional dish" appears. The major ingredients look the same (chicken, peanuts, onions, red chilis), but the overall colors look quite different, as do the type of onions, the amount of sauce, etcetera. How certain are we that this photo is representative of the "authentic" dish as served in Sichuan?

If there is any doubt, I would be happy to contribute my photo linked to above to Wikipedia. As I mentioned, I have good reason to believe it was authentic - it was served at a Sichuan restaurant in Shanghai recommended to me by a Sichuan professor as one of the best Sichuan restaurants in town, and one of the students who accompanied me was from Sichuan herself and pointed it out specifically as a famous dish.

—Steven G. Johnson (talk) 00:04, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

If no one can vouch for the authenticity of the current image, I'm going to replace it in a day or two with the one I took in China. Any objections? —Steven G. Johnson (talk) 17:00, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Let's see it here first. Where in China did you have it? Some restaurants prepare idiosyncratic versions of particular dishes. Badagnani (talk) 17:14, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Go back and read what I wrote; I answered all of your questions already, and linked to the photo. —Steven G. Johnson (talk) 17:21, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Popular Culture section should be removed

The "in popular culture" section of this article is not only non-encyclopedic but an insult to the rest of this article. It ought to be removed -- but I recognize the need for prior discussion before doing such. Thoughts? – moonty (talk) (contribs) 04:37, 30 July 2008 (UTC)