Talk:Robert the Bruce

Schiltron

When did Robert mn,lnmkkj hki/the Bruce start incorporating the schiltron, as originally devised by Wallace? He definitely used this tactic in the Battle of Bannockburn, but did he use it in ordinary guerilla warfare?

A shiltrom was not any particular shape - it might be circular, rectangular or linear depending on need. There is no reason to assume that the schiltrom was an invention of Willima Wallace - it was the manner of fighting for all spear-armed infantry units throughout the middle ages.

In response to the above question, first of all I believe the formation was called a "Shiltrom," with an 'm.' I'm not sure if the n is an acceptable variation or not. To directly address the above question, John Furdun in his Scottish Chronical described the battle of Falkirk where William Wallace was defeated and he describes Wallace's shiltrom as having been flanked (possibly by Robert Bruce himself, but this was only speculation). So the shiltrom was definitely not designed by Bruce. This is the earliest use of the word that I can think of off the top of my head, so I am not sure whether or not Wallace was the creator of the formation.

Would it really be possible to use that formation in guerilla warfare anyway? Seems a bit unlikey. - Tulloch Gorum

The Bruce? Or Bruce? Or Bruys? Or Brus?

Is it Robert THE Bruce, or is it just Robert Bruce?

• Technically it's both. Robert Bruce, hence Robert of the Bruce family!
  • my understanding is that when the definite article "The" is used, you are referring to the head of the family and/or laird of the region. The MacKenzie, The Bruce, etc.

• I'm afraid that there may not be a clear answer to this question, since most contemporary records may describe him in Norman French as Robert le Brus. It would be interesting to know how Barbour describes him.

• • • The style "The MacIntosh" or "The MacArthur" or

what have you indicates that the person so designated is Chief of the indicated Name or Clan. Robert the Bruce was Chief of the Name of Bruce. The style is still used today.

In the case of Robert the Bruce, long usage has reinforced the style. Barbour refers to King Robert I in several different ways, including as "The Bruce," as well as "the lord Bruce" and as "The King."

• What is the relationship between the Bruce family and the Stewarts? I have seen on the House of Stuart page that Robert the Bruce was listed as Robert Stewart (Stuart?). Would that be the same person?

• • • The daughter of King Robert I married Walter Stuart,

and their son became Robert II, the first of the Stuart Kings of Scots. The Monarch of Scotland was always referred to as "King of Scots" rather than "King of Scotland," the idea being that the Scottish Monarch was first Chief among many Chiefs, rather than an absolute Monarch. Not so simple as that; Medievla kings of Scotland, France and England (at least) are desrcibed in medieval documents as 'KIng of Scots' or 'King of Scotland' or 'France/the French' of England/the Englsih' in a pretty abtirary manner. The idea that Scottsih kings were the 'first chief among chiefs' is a product of nationalist romance. Medieval Scottish kings were just as absloute in their kingship as their French or Englsih counterparts.81.155.35.252 11:18, 31 August 2007 (UTC)Docbro

• We appear to be in danger of getting into a serious muddle between his mother and his daughter. I know his daughter is normally describe as Marjorie Bruce, but should we describe his mother as Marjorie or Margaret? PatGallacher 01:38, 2005 Feb 21 (UTC)

Bruce's Cave

Is it necessary to have the reference to Bruce's Cave? I'm sure there are dozens of places around Scotland and elsewhere named after him and it would seem unnecessary to pick out one fairly obscure example. Leithp 19:17, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Probably not. There's a cave on Isle of Arran that claims to be the true cave, but there may be others, too. Berek 07:57, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I took out the reference to Rathlin Island, as it's been a couple of weeks and no-one has given a reason for it to remain. Leithp 10:05, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It says in the Rathlin article that the cave was there - that's probably why they added it here. - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 08:55, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I think the cave issue should be mentioned in the article. Seems like several places claim that they have the cave. I have only visited the one on Arran, the information signs there mentions it as a "legend", so we should make that clear in the article too. RipperDoc

Normandy

Could someone please amend the article with the fact that "Bruce" is a Norman family name from Robert's ancestor "Brusse" who came to the island with his cousin William the Conqueror during the Norman Invasion. Both Brusse and William were descended from (respectively) Turf-Einar and Rollo, the sons of Ragnvald Eysteinsson, the Jarl of Moer.

Robert born in Chelmsford?

The articles Chelmsford and Writtle both contain the sugestion that the latter (which is in or near the former, apparently) is considered a possible birthplace of Robert. I would have thought that the possibility of a non-Scottish birth would be worth a mention in this article, if credible enought to be mentioned in those. But I'd prefer to leave this to folks who know a lot more about the subject than I do. Sharkford July 8, 2005 17:28 (UTC)

Two medieval sources (Galfredi Le Baker De Swinbroke, Chronicon Angliæ temporibus Edwardi II. et Edwardi III and the Fordun Annals) do claim the accepted date of birth and Writtle, but are not taken seriously by some historians. The Treaty of Edinburgh-Northampton explicitly claims that Scotland and England both now had kings of their own birth (Were????). Lochmaben has a claim which is possible, but it is probably Turnberry Castle in Ayrshire. PatGallacher 2005 July 8 21:32 (UTC)

Where were Robert the Bruce's parents when he was born? Adraeus July 8, 2005 22:13 (UTC)

His father should have been on crusade with Edward I, but apparently didn't go, next reference I've found for his father is: "Earl Robert attended the Westminster parliament of 1278". There were no parliaments between 1270 and 1275, so I guess it's will be down church / court roles & accounts.

Good question. As at that time his parents were Earl and Countess of Carrick this is the main argument for Turnberry Castle as his birthplace, as this was the seat of the Earls of Carrick. PatGallacher 2005 July 8 22:57 (UTC)

Roberts Grand Mother, Isabel swapped her part claim to the parts of Cheshire for a couple of estates in Essex, most notably the Village + Royal Hunting lodge at Writte. Quite handy if your husband's a Justice sitting in London, possibly commutable. As to Writtle's claim to Robert's Birth and place of his marriage to Elizabeth de Burgh, they seem to originate from a Geoffrey le Baker's, in the mid 14th cent. As far as I can see they are the only near contemporary claims to an actual place of birth and marriage. Robert also appeared keen to regain Writtle, given the recorded litigation in the 1320's. Looking at the latest Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, they have Robert's father (VI) down as possibly being born in Writtle.

Bruce Lands & Posession?

Has anyone seen / compiled a record of the lands held by the Bruce family, prior to the ex-communication? I ask as looking through the National Archives there are numerous references to estates forfeited in England, Scotland and Ireland, but how complete the record is I don't know. For starters the archive mention estates forfeited in:

• Ayrshire
• Bedfordshire
• Cambridgeshire
• Couny Durham
• Dumfries and Galloway
• Essex
• Huntingdonshire
• Hampshire
• Gloucestershire
• Leicestershire
• Lincolnshire
• Middlesex
• Rutland
• Somerset
• Surrey
• Yorkshire
• Ireland

With a few references:

• [1] Annandale castle, Dumfries and Galloway
• [2] Lochmaban castle, Dumfries and Galloway
• Carrick, Ayrshire.
• [3] Manor of Hart, County Durham]
• Writtle, Essex
• [4] Baddow, Essex
• [5] Tottenham, Middlesex
• [6][7] Hatfield Broadoak, Essex
• [8] Broomshawbury, Essex
• [9] Manor of Bellister
• Guisborough, Yorkshire
• More generally:
  • [10] Bedfordshire, Rutland, Lincolnshire, Leicestershire, Essex, Cambridgeshire, Huntingdonshire
  • [11] Hampshire, Gloucestershire, Surrey, Somerset

There's also mention in Edward I's attempted quo warranto land grab of: Ireby, Glassanby and Gambledby

Possibly also via his grand mother Isabel of Gloucester and Hertford: Ripe, East Sussex —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.104.51.74 (talk) 18:05, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

King of Scots, the traditional style of the Monarch of Scotland

The Monarchs of Scotland were styled as "Kings of Scots," not "Kings of Scotland." - unsigned comment by: 66.156.107.108)

Not really true. Both titles were always in use, and in fact, King of Scotland is older - i.e. ri Alban 900; rex Scotiae 1034; Basileus/Rex Scottorum, late 11th century. I don't mind King of Scots instead of King of Scotland - but "King of Scots, the traditional style of the Monarch of Scotland" is useless, cumbersome and misleading. - Calgacus 05:14, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Without doubt your opinion on this matter is of great importance. However, to quote the late Sir Iain Moncreiffe of that Ilk: "So the royal style was patriarchal not territorial, for it embraced Scotsmen everywhere into the national family: not 'King of Scotland' but 'King of Scots'." Moncreiffe of that Ilk, Sir Iain, Bt. "The Highland Clans." New York: Clarkson N. Potter, Inc., 1967, p. 32.

Sir Iain Moncreiffe I hope is not being literal, and if he is, he's talking nonsense. Don't get me wrong, I've heard people saying this before, but because I've actually consulted primary sources, I know it isn't true; although in the high middle ages, it was more common in Europe as a whole to call a king rex +people (e.g. rex Anglorum, rex Romanorum, etc), to imply that the Scots were unique in this or that the Scottish king confined himself to this title alone is bad history. - Calgacus 15:08, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Calgacus is absolutely correct, also, SIr Iain Moncreiffe was an expert on heraldry, not a historian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.148.99.183 (talk) 16:06, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Robert, Walter and Niall Bruce

Did any of these sons of Robert I have any descendants? Indeed, are there any Bruce families still living in Scotland descended in male line from the Bruce family? What about the children of his brothers, uncles, cousions? Fergananim 16:49, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

None of the illegitimate sons of Robert the Bruce have any living descendants, and, of course, the Crown was settled on Robert II, the first Stewart King, because David II, King Robert the Bruce's son, had no children. When it became apparent that David II would die childless, and the settlement of the Crown would go to Robert Stewart, King David chartered the Royal fortress of Clackmannan to his "blood cousin" ("consanguinious noster" in the Latin of the charter) Thomas Bruce. Today it is not known for certain exactly what the relationship of this Thomas was to the King, but it is certain that King David II and his advisors would have known who was the senior Bruce after himself. The House of Clackmannan has represented the senior line of the Family or Name of Bruce since the 14th Century, and indeed, it still does today. The representer of the Clackmannan line, and today's Chief of the Name of Bruce is Sir Andrew Bruce, The Earl of Elgin and Kincardine, Knight of the Thistle. All of the Bruce Families extant today are descended from this Clackmannan line. The many people who claim to be direct descendants of Robert the Bruce have to have Stewart connections, since the only line from him still in existance is through his daughter Marjorie.66.156.107.108

They all probably had bastards, if you accept that they were all of aristocratic status and that all had experienced sexual relations before their deaths. I don't know though if any of their bastards are known. Given the cultural background of guys like Niall, their bastards probably faded into the Gaelic society of Carrick. - Calgacus 21:44, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I probably should have written something to this effect: no descendants of these bastard sons of King Robert I are known today. Your statement that their possible descendants probably "faded into the Gaelic society of Carrick" is very true.66.156.107.108

Is this the Thomas Bruce who married Marjorie Charteris? What is the common historical view regarding his parentage? Is he considered an illegitimate son of Robert I? Or of another member of the family? Or even a legitimate son of one of Robert's younger siblings (and therefore junior by primogeniture to Robert II)? Michaelsanders 19:25, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Background and early life

"Precious little is known of his youth." Rather than make up facts for this section, would it not be better to describe in more general terms the lifestyle and learning that would be expected for someone of his stature? (I believe that is the intent of the section.) If specific information is to be asserted, reasons should be given. If we know that all of his playmates spoke French, English, and Latin, that should be mentioned. If we know that he spent time alone with a king who spoke only English, that is worth specifying. If traditional accounts can be dated to three hundred years after the fact, they may be worth repeating as long as their origin is divulged. If evidence is more tenuous than this, maybe it should be left out.--bkm pdx,or,usa

I don't think many of his "playmates" would have spoken English or Latin, certainly not if he was brought up in Carrick. It's not mentioned in the article, but Robert's first appearance in history is witnessing a charter of Alasdair MacDomhnaill, Lord of Islay, in the company of the Bishop of Argyll, the vicar of Arran, a Kintyre clerk, his father and a host of Gaelic notaries from Carrick. One historian, I think it may be Sean Duffy, suggests the idea that Robert may have been fostered in Argyll, but I don't think there is much evidence for this. The only languages we know for certain he spoke were Gaelic and French. If he did spend time at the court of the English king (i don't know what this idea is based on, since I've never encountered it in serious literature), he would have used the language the English king used, French! Regards. - Calgacus 17:39, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

His father was born in Essex (If you believe the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography / Barrow), and may have spent a couple of years on Crusade with Edward I + Edmund (if you believe the Myth concerning his 1st marriage), along with spending a couple of years with Edward subduing Wales, and time at Edward's court. He is also known to have retired to Essex and died in Cumberland, so the Father is likely to have been fluent, else he would have had difficulty commanding his Sergeants, Servants and Tenants.

Son, Father, and Grandfather were Governor of Carlisle and held assorted estates in England (see above). Not to forget Inglis was the dominant tongue of their hereditary border estate of Annandale, which suggests some familiarity with English.

The Grandfather thought in the English Baronial wars, suggesting he would have need the language, in addition to French. Not to forget he married two English brides in his time.

Which would suggest Robert I would have had some English from his paternal line.

Wallace the Martyr.

I know that myth can make a powerful contribution to history, but it is important not to lose sight of the facts, or to allow judgement to be clouded by emotion. The cult of Wallace really only dates from Blind Harry's fanciful fifteenth century epic, which reveals much more about the attitudes and politics of his own time than those of the Wars of Independence. There is no contemporary evidence that the execution of Wallace in 1305 had any immediate effect, or that, by itself, it created any lasting emnity towards Edward I.

I've made one small change to this article: to my knowledge Edward II never 'sued for peace', which would have meant abandoning his claim to Scotland. Temporary truces, of course, were a different thing.

I've now removed the 'Wallace the Martyr' section for the above reasons. My argument is set out more fully in the article on the First War of Scottish Independence. Rcpaterson 22:49, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

In response to the above amendment, I wanted to add my support as Wallace was not even mentioned in John Barbour's poem, "The Bruce." Also, his resignation from position of guardian after his defear at Falkirk has suggested his political weakness.

First nation state in Europe?

"Under the rule of the one who was later to be known as 'Good King Robert,' Scotland had become the first nation state in Europe, the first to have territorial unity under a single king."

From the last paragraph of

"Robert I, the Bruce (1274-1329)"

http://www.britannia.com/bios/robertbruce.html

Can anyone elaborate on this? Is it true? --Timeshifter 07:33, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Using that definition, wouldn't England have been a nation-state already? 68.40.65.164 22:53, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, such a statement is simply rubbish. It always fascinates me how this 'Scottish' hero was, genealogically, overwhelmingly non-Scottish. He was born in Essex and his father was buried in a family crypt in England. My own family fought with Wallace and Bruce but if anyone to start writing about them, an almost purely Norman family at that time, as 'heroic Scots' I would say they were demented. David Lauder 19:19, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

This is untrue. You seem to be forgetting that Robert's mother was the countess of Carrick ... no Norman, but a Gaelic Scot; in simple biological terms, that immediately makes him half Scottish before you even start counting the "Scottish" wives taken by the Annandale Bruces since they settled in Scotland 2 centuries before. Robert (the King) had more biological connection with Fergus of Galloway than with the first de Brus to hold territory from the King of Scots, and if you believe the new theory of G. W. S. Barrow was generationally and biologically closer to Ruaidrí Ua Conchobair, High King of Ireland, than to Robert de Brus, 1st Lord of Annandale. Also, King Robert was produced by the union between the Carrick family and de Brus and intended later to fulfill the position of Mormaer of Carrick, so was fostered (probably in Carrick or Argyll, maybe Ireland) probably for that purpose. Portraying him as some foreigner foreign to Scotland is nonsense; he was as "Scottish" as anyone else in the Scotland of the time. And he wasn't born in Essex, that's a bunch of crap. There's no evidence that I'm aware of that his mother ever left Scotland. Also, you said in the edit summary that Robert I's father held more land in England than Scotland ... again, that is not true. Robert sr's primary land holding was the large semi-sovereign territorial lordship of Annandale, along with de jure use of the title to Carrick, the rulership of which was held by his wife. So David, I recommend you start reading books written after the Victorian era. ;) All the best. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 20:00, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, his mother's mother was Margaret, daughter of Walter, the High Steward, and the Stewards were not Scots. His father has few Scots in his lineage. Yes, they held Annandale, but they were not Scots. Even Isabella of Huntingdon's family is only Scots in the direct male line back from her. All her other ancestors are non-Scots. I have had this discussion with you before: please do not tell good scholars their knowledge is rubbish because YOU disagree with it or with virtually all of the ancient chroniclers whom you so arrogantly refer to as "crap". David Lauder 17:12, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, you've just admitted that biologically speaking, they were mostly Scots (for whatever that's worth - not much!) and that most of their territory and most important territory was in Scotland; whether you think Bruces were Scottish or not is neither here nor there unless you start trying to put such BS in articles, in which case you'll have to actually defend yourself rather than just calling people "arrogant". Victorian popular writers, btw, neither count as "ancient chronicles" nor "good scholars"; they did not have access to most sources, and even when one or two of them could access or understand one or two sources, they were too infected with Teutonism, Whiggism and other such creeds to make any use of them. The Stewarts, btw, were Scottish ... whether or not they could trace their paternal line a few generations back to France is irrelevant; Walter Stewart, who was called "Walter Og" (Gaelic for "Little Walter") in the Anglosphere-based Melrose Chronicle and whose own mother was the "pure" Scottish Alesta (daughter of the Mormaer of Mar), could not have been anything other than "Scottish". Why is he not Scottish, yet Michael Portillo is British? Strange ideas you've got there if you don't mind me saying. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 17:24, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

I fear that modern concepts of nationalism may somewhat be clouding the understanding of the nobility at this time. A look back at the relitively recent clashes between Scotland and England provide an intresting incite. Most noteworthy is the Battle of the Standard at which some nobles passed on their lands in Scotland to their sons. By doing such they were able to ensure the family honored its feudal duties to both kings. The father fighting for the sothern lands, and the child for the northern. At that date at least; retention of the familys land was far more important than any concepts of nationalism. Remmembering that any form of centralised government was centuries away, it is hard to see how much this attitude changed over 100 years. Contentious claims about the behaviour of the nobility at Falkirk seem to add weight to this as well as the fact that one of Robert 1st large policies when the nation was secured was to ensure nobility did not continue to hold land in England. Most protaginists from the nobility acted throughout the campaign through personal motivation, taking on the Scottish cause when it suited them. Fortunately for the said cause, this was relitively regular as the English kings required to grant land to there supporters so as to gain such continuing support. The church in this period was the true nationalists, but how much this was driven by a fear of becoming part of the Archbishopric of York is hard to gauge. The huge costs put into the building of the Cathedral at St Andrews would suggest this was a large issue for the nation at a whole. In conclusion, at least in regards the nobility that owned land in both nations (I use the term losely) the priority lay with retention of land; those whom owed fealty to two different kings found themselves in a difficult situation. Even the landowners whom only had title in Scotland were in danger of being forced to decide between Comyn and Bruce factions. Thus I would suggest attempts to establish the 'nationality' of any protaginist falling within the nobility category will prove to be a fully fruitless labour.Dthecat 11:04, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Robert's predicessor Alexander 3rd unified the country under his own rule during his 'golden reign.' Although there can be little doubting Roberts tour de force enforced this rule; the reason for its existance lies with Alexander. Even though Robert succeded in gaining a 'rea' control over the lords of the isles, these continued to operate as quasi independent kingdoms until brought to line by James 6th. Dthecat 11:04, 6 August 2007 (UTC)—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.195.75.20 (talk • contribs) 12:40, 23 July 2007 (UTC) Lack of Scottish nobles at falkirk might be explained by the fact that so many of them were POWs in England at the time? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.157.117.57 (talk) 16:39, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Bruce and the spider

It's worth noting that this story is a trope in royal biographical writing. A similar story is told in Persian history about Timur/Tamerlane and an ant (see http://www.silkroaddestinations.com/uzbekistan.html and do a search on "ant"). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.3.31.221 (talk • contribs) 06:58, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

bruce

this guy is my ancestor. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Altenhofen (talk • contribs) 01:08, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

naming (again)

I have tried to harmonise the naming on "Bruce" (replacing "Robert", "Robert the Bruce", "Robert Bruce"), except where necessary in references or to distinguish from his father or brother. Grafen (talk) 18:56, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

It's pretty standard in wikipedia articles to refer to monarchs by their forenames - no article refers to Charles I as 'Stuart'. Michael Sanders 16:13, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Birthplace issues

A recent attempt to add Writtle in Essex as a serious contender for his birthplace quotes 2 late 19th century sources, completely ignores 20th century scholarship. The most serious examination of his birthplace was a biography I borrowed once from Coventry City Library, it also put forward syphilis as the possible cause of his death. Barrow, the definitive biography, also goes for Turnberry. PatGallacher (talk) 00:21, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

As Wikipedia is a tertiary work we should be mainly based on what secondary sources say, mainly Barrow as the most important biography although to a lesser extent other works of 20th/21st century scholarship. Barrow goes for Turnberry and rubbishes the one mediaeval source which claims it was Writtle. PatGallacher (talk) 09:36, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I think the Writtle thing is based on confusion with his father/grandfather. These guys tend to forget that little Robert had to come out of his mother, who being countess of Carrick and socially Robert senior's superior isn't likely to have went anywhere near Essex. Do we have any evidence she ever left Scotland? Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 14:41, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

An anon user has again reverted to this dubious version. I would prefer not to get into a revert war. If this continues I may raise a Request for Comment. I will also consult Barrow and possibly other sources in detail next time I am in the Mitchell Library, the main public reference library in Glasgow. PatGallacher (talk) 21:11, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Rollo is from Norway, not Denmark- I made the change RMB —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.96.29.20 (talk) 02:35, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

hsjefbed

well i justr wanted to say i love King Robert the Bruce —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.105.72.163 (talk) 15:07, 17 May 2008 (UTC)