Talk:Michael (archangel)

Hebrew Wikipedia

Hebrew Wikipedia claims that name Michael appears in the Hebrew bible where he had appeared before Abraham before his death. This seems like a discrepancy which should be fixed.

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Q: in this page it says that Michael is the only archangel metioned in the bible (Dan.) In the general article on angels it states that both Gabriel and Michael are in Dan. I seem to remember reading about Gabriel in the book of Daniel last time i read it also. I dont have a bible with me at the moment so maybe someone else would like to clear this up.--Phoebus 22:05, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

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He is also mentioned in Apocalypse 12:7, "And there was a great battle in heaven, Michael and his angels fought with the dragon."

Entered the reference. --Wetman 03:13, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

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Well, damn.im cool I wasn't logged in (how that happens I'll never know), so the summary is now incomprehensible. I was the one revising. --MichaelTinkler

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Protestants would call him Michael or the Archangel Michael as an angel cannot be a saint, only a human can. --rmhermen

While I agree with Michael that we're probably better off leaving the "saint" out of the article title, I have to point out the Catholic/Orthodox rationale for calling an angel a saint. If we understand "saint" to simply mean "holy", as it does in most other languages, then unfallen angels who stand in the presence of God singing hymns and offering their prayers can surely be said to be holy. This broader understanding of the word "saint" is how Protestants understand the word when they say every Christian is a saint, so there shouldn't be a huge disagreement here. The more understandable difference is in using "Saint" as a title, and the whole canonization process. To me, it's much easier to understand why Protestants would be uncomfortable with recognizing a select few as capital-S saints. See also saint. --Wesley

While Protestant certainly dispute the idea behind capital S saints, saints does not just mean holy for all Protestant groups. Concepts like perserverance of the saints clearly only apply the term saints to fallen humans who have been redeemed. --rmhermen

Why is the name "Saint" still in the title, when it is agreed that we are talking about an angel, and not a human being who was canonized as a saint? RK 21:42, 13 Sep 2003 (UTC)

In case you're wondering, the Catholic usage of the word saint explains why an angel gets the title - the Wiki article on saints explains this very well.--Krupo 06:59, 2 May 2004 (UTC)

(Roman Catholic usage trumps all at Wikipedia.)

Straying off topic, but in that concept, when fallen humans are redeemed, are they not made holy in the process? Otherwise, what good does it do to be redeemed? Wesley 15:55 Sep 26, 2002 (UTC)

That all depends. What precisely do you mean by a "fallen human"? I have never heard this term. What precisely do you mean when say that one can be redeemed. I understand what Chrisitians mean when they say that someone was "saved"; is this the same thing? Finally, what do you mean by being "made holy". Do you mean like being out in a state of permanent grace, like Jesus or Buddah? I know that in Jewish thought, human beings are rarely called holy (or for that matter, unholy). Rather, their actions are considered holy or unholy. God, and the angels, OTOH, are considered inherently holy. RK 21:42, 13 Sep 2003 (UTC)

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I've declared myself in favor of calling all saints by their names rather than by 'saint so-and-so'. --MichaelTinkler

I agree. RK 21:42, 13 Sep 2003 (UTC)

It is unworkable. Many saints are only known by first name. Take away saint and they are unrecognisable. BTW the formal name is St. Michael the Archangel and I have renamed the article to reflect it, to make it clear that he is not a saint in the canonised form but called saint as an honorary title. FearÉIREANN 23:08, 13 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Problem - Jews and Muslims simply refer to Michael as "Michael". They never refer to him as a Saint; the same is true of the Bible itself. Also, many Protestant Christians also refer to the angel Michael simply as "Michael", or as "Michael the archangel". Only those familiar with Catholic or Orthodox naming terminology would be able to find this article with this name. I think we should name the article simply Michael, as it used to be called, or perhaps Michael (angel). Within the article, of course, we can continue to state that Catholics refer to this angel as St. Michael the Archangel. RK 23:40, 13 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Calling the article Michael is unworkable as it would cause all sorts of disambigulation problems. Michael is not called Michael the angel. The term archangel is generally used to describe him. Michael the Archangel is the most recognised name, and using the most recognised term is standard wiki policy. I have no particular hangup on the saint honorific, though that is how he is referred in christian Litanies. But Michael the Archangel is internationally recognisable, Michael (angel) is not. FearÉIREANN 20:43, 14 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Good compromise. Thanks RK.

George is patron saint of england the article states michael is that is false —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.187.245.242 (talk) 10:08, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Trumpet

Isn't it Gabriel who blows the trumpet on Judgement Day?

A trope such as this has a history in literature and representation, which is what makes it interesting to the rest of us. Anyone care to trace this development? Tuba mirum spargens sonum etc etc?--Wetman 21:36, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

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Michael, one of the chief Princes, came to help me;........and there is none that holds with me in these things, but Michael your prince.[Dan.10:13,21]. For some, it is almost impossible to believe that this could refer to our Lord JESUS CHRIST! Michael means, One like GOD! He has many, many names and just as Satan is the prince of evil, so JESUS is the prince of life. In Daniel He is also called "Messiah" the prince [9:25]. While Satan always wants to exalt himself, CHRIST is the opposite, He accepts the lowliest names and positions. in Daniel 11:22 JESUS is also called the prince of the covenant. In John 12:31 Satan is called the prince of this world.

In Revelation 1:5 it says: "And from JESUS CHRIST, who is the faithful witness, the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto Him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in His own blood." While he humbles Himself into the dust and took our place, He elevates us to Kings and Priests [v.6; 5:10; 1.Peter 2:9]. "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Councilor, The mighty GOD, the everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." [Isa.9:6].

Rolf Vaessen

—Thank you for sharing: there's always time to devote a moment to a sermonette at Wikipedia. --Wetman 14:32, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

"Archangel Michael, Nom De Plume"

"Archangel Michael is a Nom de plume of a prominent Messianic believer in Messiah Yeshua." Whether or not this statement is "true", it contains no information and has been removed here for improvement. --Wetman 16:35, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Translation

I went ahead and added the information from the 1911 Catholic Encyclopedia, but couldn't find a translation of one line:

militiae coelestis quem honorificant angelorum cives

Can somebody get translation of that? My Latin ability is limited to liturgical phrases. Text was removed, nevermind. Done, thank you.-- Essjay · Talk 08:34, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

No, I moved it to make better context when I translated it as you asked: "Medieval Christians considered St. Michael as the symbol or emblem of the Church Militant and as the patron saint of soldiers, in the Roman Catholic liturgy, Princeps militiae coelestis quem honorificant angelorum cives ("Prince of the celestial army whom the city of angels honor"). " --Wetman 14:40, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

So you did; it was late and I didn't catch the change to the top. Honestly, it wouldn't have bothered me to remove the text; I was just keeping the CE text together. I'm glad you got to the translation so fast. Thanks for the clarification. -- Essjay · Talk 04:45, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

The term "Church Militant" is not a correct translation. The meaning of "militiae celestis" refers to Michael's army of angels-heavenly warriors who fought the fallen angels. "Church Militant" is the part of the Roman Catholic Church membership that are still struggling here on earth,ie, living human beings. The other two parts refer to the saved dead: the "Church Triumphant", who are those who died and are in heaven, and the "Church Suffering", who are those souls still in purgatory. See the current Catholic Encyclopedia, and the Wikipedia article on the term. Further medieval Christians regarded a number of human saints as military patrons, most notable being St. George. The fact that there were other military patron saints is already mentioned in the article. The Latin phrase doesn't seem to add anything new. Deleted.

Michael in the book of Judges

Sorry, but the captain of the host of the Lord is a pre-incarnate showing of the Lord Jesus Christ, who came in the form of a man. Verse 14 says that Joshua worshipped him. Michael is a created being, Jesus is not because he is God, and God alone is worthy to recieve all the praise. The holy angels refuse to be worshipped (Revelation 19:10; 22:9). The response is always the same, "Worship God!", so if Micahel was the captain of the Lord's host, and he did recieve the worship for himself, then that means that he was probably Satan in disguise and God is a liar and a trickster for sending his greatest adversary to Joshua. But God is not a liar, so the Commander Of The Lord's army is Jesus Christ in as pre-incarnate appearance(theophany/Christophany).

The word "worship" appears to be an interpolation of the KJV. It's in neither the Masroetic[1] nor the Septuagint[2]. TCC (talk) (contribs) 19:12, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

But only God can make a ground holy.And since the Father and Spirit are invisible to man, we are left with only one option: It was God the Son.

You mean to say that God cannot sanctify a place while working through an agent? Or even without being physically present? What an odd idea. TCC (talk) (contribs) 03:04, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

God's Agent is Christ Jesus. And Jesus Christ is God, so God was physically present.

I shouldn't have to point out that this is circular reasoning, but I will anyway. TCC (talk) (contribs) 19:25, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Which translation?

The article doesn't mention which translation is used for the passage of Joshua. --BHC 10:50, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Saint as Adjective

It is tempting to see the word, Saint, as applied to Michael the Archangel, as originating in the adjective "sanctus," or holy. Latin being the language of the Church, the translations into the vernacular might then have taken the word as Saint. This practice would have been even more prevalent in languages derived from Latin, in one form or another. For example, in French, the words, "saint Michel" would mean holy Michael, although the title Saint Michel is the one actually used; consequently, the Chivalric order which named itself after Saint Michel gave its name to the area of Paris which it occupied, finally giving us the Boulevard Saint Michel and the famous statue depicted in the article.--PeadarMaguidhir 20:55, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Question about Reiki -

I have a friend whom practices Reiki. What are the dangers in Reiki in respect to calling on archangels such as Michael. In respect to Christianity and the bible, does this practice violate the worshiping of other Gods? I have heard of Christian healing practices. Would a Christian practice use the Holy Spirit? Would it be safer? Any insight into any of these?

This is not the place for this discussion. Feel free to email me if you'd like a traditional Christian viewpoint. If you use that form while not logged in, please remember to give your email address in the body of the message so I can reply. TCC (talk) (contribs) 19:37, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Editing needed

Uncritical editors are permitting material like the following to filter into this article:

• "Most consider Michael, by his humble and honorable nature, to be the personal adversary of Lucifer, no matter if they consider Lucifer, Samael and/or Satan to be the same being." Unsourced pious effusion without hard content. "Most" do not consider anything of the kind. Michael and Satan are already better covered elsewhere in this article.
• "One legend tells that the Cherubim were formed from the tears Michael shed over the sins of the faithful." Unsourced pious effusion. This would be of some interest if the first appearance of this assertion could be instanced.
• "Michael is also said to be the patron saint of loners and those who find themselves oppressed. ". A touching confession, but not noted anywhere.

The article has become a jumble of modern cult and historical development, presented at haphazard without distinctions. The development of the Christian cult of Michael is worthy of a specific section, apart from contemporary cult and titles. --Wetman 13:29, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Shrines of St. Michael

There are certainly thousands of cathedrals, parishes, chapels and shrines named for this archangel worldwide. Where are we drawing the line for notability? TCC (talk) (contribs) 21:01, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Plagurism?

Either a large portion of this article was plaugurized (forgive my horrid spelling, tis late here) or we were ripped off by the catholic encyclopedia:

It would have been natural to St. Michael, the champion of the Jewish people, to be the champion also of Christians, giving victory in war to his clients. The early Christians, however, regarded some of the martyrs as their military patrons: St. George, St. Theodore, St. Demetrius, St. Sergius, St. Procopius, St. Mercurius, etc.; but to St. Michael they gave the care of their sick. At the place where he was first venerated, in Phrygia, his prestige as angelic healer obscured his interposition in military affairs. It was from early times the centre of the true cult of the holy angels, particularly of St. Michael. Tradition relates that St. Michael in the earliest ages caused a medicinal spring to spout at Chairotopa near Colossae, where all the sick who bathed there, invoking the Blessed Trinity and St. Michael, were cured.

         --- from [The Catholic Encyclopedia]

It continues all the way through the sentance "In some parishes (Isle of Skye) they had a procession on this day and baked a cake, called St. Michael's bannock.", the last on the linked page. Kuronue 00:23, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I see above someone "added information from the 1911 Catholic Encyclopedia" -- apparently they added the exact wording from the encyclopedia, which is very much copyrighted. Kuronue 00:26, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the 1911 Catholic Encyclopedia is very much public domain, and text from it may be freely used. We generally don't want to do that here because that work is written with a strongly Roman Catholic POV, but there's no legal bar to it. TCC (talk) (contribs) 02:03, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Both Encyclopedia Britannica 1911 and Catholic Encyclopedia are in the public domain and have furnished the jumping-off point for thousands of Wikipedia articles, in which further editing has quite often entirely superceded the original wording. --Wetman 02:29, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I didn't know that. Cool. Kuronue 15:13, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Chaldea?

I removed the following since it has no basis in fact or legend as to the Biblical origination of St. Michael:

The figure of Michael probably originated in Chaldaea as a protective god or spirit. Accepted by the Jews, he emerged as...

It needs a citation if you're going to say that the Jews took a pagan idol and made him into an Archangel. Jtpaladin 00:11, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Michael: affirmation or question?

"Micha-El" means "Who is like God". But should there be a question mark after it - in other words, is this a comparison ("he is the same as God") or a rhetorical question ("Who is like God? No one..."). Can any Hebrew scholar help. Obviously I am not disinterested ;-) Nick Michael 21:34, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

The Latin equivalent "Quis ut deus" implies a question (or it would have been "qui ut deus"). Obviously Latin is not Hebrew, but I that at least points to the question form going back some ways. Mlouns 21:48, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Mlouns. Disappointed...! Nick Michael 22:04, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Also the legend of the name's origin as the battle-cry of the loyal angels suggests it's a question, albeit a rhetorical one. (The obvious answer is "no one", contra Satan's self-exaltation.) TCC (talk) (contribs) 22:25, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

If its literal meaning is "El's likeness", how can it be a question? What kind of question is "El's likeness?"?

WikiProject Rating

I have added a rating of "B-Class" to this article. There are good graphics/pictures throughout, the article is divided into readable sub-sections, has appropriate wikilinks, and has an extensive bibliography. However, much of the material was cut-and-pasted directly from Catholic Encyclopedia, and reflects the POV and sometimes awkward prose of that resource. Futher, this article would benefit greatly from in-text citations rather than a Bibliography. Pastordavid 17:39, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Repetions

Saint Michael appearing to Constantine and and Pope Gregory the Great's renaming Hadrian's Mausoleum after him is said twice. I don't have the time or energy to correct that or even log in. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.21.96.49 (talk) 17:27, 24 February 2007 (UTC).

Christian Apocrypha?

One section in the Christian tradition part of this article mentions the Apocalypse of Moses as a source from the Christian Apocrypha. I do not believe this is part of the Apocrypha in any sense of the word. Maybe this part should be deleted? Tjtenor2 15:03, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Odd, probably offensive placement of St. Michael picture

Why is there a picture of a St. Michael statue in the Islamic section? Ichormosquito 05:31, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I had the same thought as well when cruising the article. I have moved the image down to the Literature section near a spot in the text that discusses Michael's fight with Satan's armies etc etc, which matches the image anyway. Ryoutou 08:15, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Several sections probably non-notable and fancruft

The sections Literature and popular culture, Film and Television, and Comics seem to contain material that doesn't meet notability standards and could qualify as cruft to some.

I didn't delete it outright because I felt some of the material might be salvageable and wanted to give other maintainers a chance to defend its inclusion. How do others feel about the this material, specifically under the article Michael (archangel)? As an example, it seems covering topics such as a movie are handily dealt with by the disambiguation page.

Am I being fair in suggesting exclusion of this material or can consensus determine inclusion per Wiki is not paper? Mindlurker 20:13, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

I am all for deleting these sections marked as non-notable. Even the Paradise Lost mention is not very notable, since it essentially adds nothing new. I may well delete it all within a few days if I don't hear an outcry. Mlouns 21:05, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the material. I've had the notability tags on there for quite some time now. It doesn't seem to meet the requirements for inclusion of fiction material. I also feel that nobody coming to this page - specifically tagged (Archangel) - is looking for that kind of material. Brief mentions of characters in a plot-line of fiction stories doesn't seem encyclopedic. Mindlurker 18:32, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Depending on interpretation, isn't his original appearance in a work of fiction? And certain works on Wiki point to Michael as a character. While he's not utilized as often as lets say Lucifer, he's still a fictional character. Why have links only one way, and not the other? I'd think his appearances in fiction are rare enough that a brief on him is warranted. Also if outright fiction is being removed, you ought to remove the Uranti book as well, as it's also a non-religious text.Brinlong (talk) 22:41, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

The difference between references from the Bible or other ancient traditions and later pop culture is most emphatically not that one is presumed to be real and the other is fiction. (Otherwise, all mythology and literature entries in wikipedia would evaporate.) It is that one is an influential source for a long-lasting idea, whereas the other is ephemeral and derivative with no real impact. In this article as it was a few months back, the laundry list of any and all appearances of St. Michael in fiction were neither rare nor notable. We had minor video games and casual TV mentions, for gosh sakes. They were taking over the article without adding anything useful to an understanding of St. Michael. Mlouns (talk) 22:54, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

"Jewish" Tradition

Does it seem odd to anyone that the Jewish Tradition section quotes from the NRSV? 199.91.34.33 (talk) 23:08, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Not really; since it's the same Tanakh (at least in most Protestant Bibles--Catholics and Orthodox consider 9 extra books to be canon), I imagine it's a lot less hassle just to use a widely-available edition of it when rendering the scripture into English. Might as well ask "does it seem odd that Jews use the chapter-and-verse notation invented by St. Jerome?" Uh, no, it doesn't, because it's convenient. Nagakura shin8 (talk) 00:44, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

religions

is michael reconized in islam at all also is there a hierarchy among the three archangels michael gabriel and raphael--Mikmik2953 (talk) 19:26, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Coat of arms attributed to St. Michael the archangel in medieval England

Argent, a cross pommee Gules

Here are the old attributed arms of St. Michael, if it's of interest... -- AnonMoos (talk) 15:49, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I dont realy agree with the begining of this Article. He is not the Patron of England, but of Cornwell, so only a region in England. Similer he is the patron of Petersburg too, but not of Russia.

Sry for the bad spelling, I am a russian. Just wanted to help you improve this Article.

Greetz. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.17.160.123 (talk) 15:51, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Article subject confusion

This article is explicitly names Michael (Archangel). However it includes a wealth of information on St.Michael who is believed to be a Patron saint! These are not one and the same, so I would suggest separating the two and creating a new article.--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 00:16, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

They, in fact, are one and the same. The article is correct as is. -- Secisek (talk) 08:17, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, no, the article starts to say so from Michael_(archangel)#Christian_tradition...and ends with Michael_(archangel)#Islam--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 08:45, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

This is about one patron and archangel. He is important to all of the abrahamic faiths, but he is still the same traditional figure. -- Secisek (talk) 08:50, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I appreciate that St.Michael is important to Christianity, but the article is about an archangel, and this is a completely different concept to a saint. --mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 09:25, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

See for example the confusion this creates with statements like "It would have been natural to St. Michael, the champion of the Jewish people", because St. Michael was not and is not a champion of the Jewish people, but the 8th ranking archangel charged with the watch over the nation of Israel.--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 09:31, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

You don't seem to fully understand the concept of saint as it is discharged here. The usage is correct and could be backed by more citations than would be practical. While this is 100 years old and biased toward the Roman view, [this article] explains the usage. I hope this helps you. -- Secisek (talk) 11:09, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually the article you pointed me to does not mention anything outside of Christianity, so why do you think this article needs to be linked to Judaism at all? Moreover, since the definitions of Christian saints and Jewish angels are very different (there are no saints in Judaism), it is abundantly clear that two different subjects have been lumped into one article by name association alone--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 12:00, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Encyclopedia Britannica agrees with current usage, you are mistaken. The article needs to cover all POVs, not just a Jewish one. -- Secisek (talk) 18:05, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, no. Firstly the Britannica is not an authority of Biblical analysis, particularly in a two paragraph snippet. Secondly, "and early in the history of the Christian church he came to be regarded as helper of the church’s armies against the heathen.", one of the heathen being Jews for refusing to convert! And thirdly, "He holds the secret of the mighty “word” by the utterance of which God created heaven and earth and was “the angel who spoke to [Moses] on Mount Sinai” (Acts 7:38)." is utterly counter to what Judaism holds to be true about Moses. Britannica therefore can not be used a neutral, or even reliable source in this case. The persona of Michael the archangel had underwent a substantial transformation in Christian interpretation and doctrine to the point of being unrecognisable, or all too recognisable since Judaism has no image for it, and this is best reflected by separate articles.--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 22:46, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Attempts to do what you suggest would almost certainly be reverted by consensus. I don't wish to argue further with anyone who declares that "Britannica therefore can not be used a neutral, or even reliable source". My last bit of advice is that you establish broad consensus before making such radical changes that some editors may even assume to be bad faith vandalism. This is one case where I would not suggest being bold. -- Secisek (talk) 22:57, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

As far as I'm aware consensus is reached by discussion backed up by verifiable sources, not voting or labelling other editors. Britannica itself had on numerous occasions been found to be in error, by Wikipedia editors in fact, so what I propose is not some strange new concept.

What I would like to you to explain to me, is how a metaphysical entity from the Hebrew Bible became a corporeal saint, and how the two are one and the same. I simply acknowledge that the Christian conception is different, and therefore separate articles are needed. In fact there is an article Michael which states that "The Archangel Michael, referred to later in the Bible (Daniel 12 verse 1), is considered a saint by the Roman Catholic Church.", so why not rename the article Michael (archangel) to Michael (saint)? After all, that is the where it is redirected from Saint Michael.--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 00:04, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

A lot of Christianity doesn't make sense, like how you get three days between Friday and Sunday. The idea of an angel being canonized doesn't seem all that strange. If it's inaccurate to refer to him as a saint when talking about the Jewish tradition, by all means, replace "Saint" with "Angel" in those sections, but it's also accurate to call him a saint when referring to Christian traditions. Kuronue | Talk 12:51, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

All the other saints I'd heard of were humans who'd been canonized, as opposed to angels whose existence predated humanity. Michael is an odd exception here, likely a fusion of separate mythos.

contradiction

If there is a problem with the contradictory statements, this is not the reason to delete the sourced edit because the contradiction is not appreciated, right?--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 09:40, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Assume Good Faith. Don't fret, you two aren't the only editors here. FWIW, I think the sentence flow is bad (we're already talking about it being in the bible, don't need to clarify twice) but the information should be included (because it's also from the bible, which is what the section is about). Kuronue | Talk 12:47, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

The section in question does not say "Michael and the devil had it out and this citation from the bible proves it". It states "the book of Jude claims Michael and the devil had it out and you can read the account in this citation". Unless you can contradict that the book of Jude contains the stated story, you can't contradict the claim. Why we are arguing minutia when the article is such poor shape to begin with is beyond me. --Secisek (talk) 13:17, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Why should someone go to a citation if you are paraphrasing the text? Just quote the text so it does not sound like OR. The book of Jude can not "claim" anything! Its a textual record, so either it has the text or it does not. The reason I added the second reference is the logical contradiction. If God said that no one knew where Moses was busied, how could there be Michael and the devil over Moses' grave?! That is the contradiction.

In this case minutia is important. If the article can't get the basic premise for its subject right, what point is there in writing the rest?--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 13:45, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

The citation is not supporting a factual claim about St. Michael. It is supporting a textual claim about the book of Jude. You want to introduce a counter-claim that the book of Jude is not factual, but no such claim has been made here. You seem to understand the argument here. -- Secisek (talk) 15:34, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, firstly now the word "claim" has been removed, so the text is factual. However, the text in Jude is still contradicted by the earlier statement in Genesis. Of course that statement in Genesis is not directly relevant to the subject of the article, Michael, but it is relevant in terms of understanding the claimed role of Michael in Jude, in the context of the event and location, that is the burial and grave of Moses, which is clearly stated to have been hidden by God. This, is what footnotes are for!--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 23:47, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I cut and pasted it here:

“ In the Epistle of Jude of the New Testament in verse Jude 9, Michael disputes with the devil over the body of Moses. ”

Is this not so? Does Jude 9 not say this? It listed as one of the times St. Michael is mentioned in the Christian scripture. What is there to dispute here? -- Secisek (talk) 03:09, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

That is not the point, and I suspect you know it. The statement made in Genesis pre-dates that of Jude by over a thousand years, and Michael is not mentioned in Genesis. It seems to me this is a fairly valid information to present to the reader should they have actually read the last chapter of Genesis and wonder where Michael came from, although as a footnote.--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 04:55, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

You are wrong to suspect that I "know it". In fact, you're losing me here. If St Michael is not mentioned in the Genesis story, how is it relavent in this section? Because it mentions Moses? Mel Brooks has a story about Moses that contradicts the story about Michael in Jude as well, but it is not relevent to this section of the article.

If the passage were cited to back an alleged "fact" about "the life" of Michael, yes, a counter-claim would be of value. As it is, the citation backs the appearence of Michael in a non-historical, legendary account where he does appear. To offer a counter-citation "disproving" the reality of the legend borders on the ridculious, all the more so when one uses another legendary story to do so. -- Secisek (talk) 05:22, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

It is because Michael is not mentioned in Genesis during Moses' burial that it is relevant!

"the citation backs the appearence of Michael in a non-historical, legendary account where he does appear" - but that is not what it says, does it?

What it says, is that "In the Epistle of Jude of the New Testament in verse 9, Michael disputes with the Devil over the body of Moses." This is a historical and far from legendary account since it places the event immediately on Moses' passing (body) in Genesis, which is dated in Judaism, and is not considered "legendary" in Judaism, but factual. This is just another reason I suggested the article is written with a POV which is fairly narrow for a reference work--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 05:42, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I think we are on the point of spotting the crux of the disagreement. Do you, in fact, believe it possible to write an historical account of the exploits of a supernatural being? That is what I am gathering from your last comment. -- Secisek (talk) 05:53, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I am not gathering anything, its done in this article!--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 05:57, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Is your expertise, in fact, in the Jewish view of Michael? Why don't you adopt that section and I'll take the Christian. Let's rewrite and cite as much as possible and see if we cant get this with in striking distance of GA? -- Secisek (talk) 06:02, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I can't make that commitment as I am already committed to other projects. However, I would like to see this article make sense. I think you appreciate the position I presented. I will likely return when I have more time.--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 06:38, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Ok, both of you calm down a little bit; remember that this is an encyclopedia, not a religious text, and therefore we're supposed to be reporting on what the text says, even if it doesn't sound good for one religion or another. (am I right in supposing that the crux of much of the debate on this page is that we have a Christian, a Jew, and a neopagan [myself] editing an article on a figure prominent in two of those religions and occasionally mentioned in the third, all in different contexts?) Kuronue | Talk 14:31, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Its not e to me.

I'd like the subject of the article defined in something other then a religious organisation's mission statement terms

I'd like the subject to start at A and progress to Z in some sort of logical fashion

I'd like statements to be cited and sourced from verifiable sources

Seems like the usual Wikipedia stuff to me

I do not think that race, faith or country of origin shoudl have anything to do with the article content--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 15:17, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

If I'm wrong, forgive my intrusion, I just came here and saw Judaism this, Christianity that, and a debate about the bible. I don't really understand why we can't include all the disputed information - nobody's saying any of it is WRONG, just that it should belong in a spinoff article or a seperate article altogether, and I don't feel that any of it (Micheal as a saint, bible disputes) are off topic. I don't understand why there's been such a huge fight over this relatively minor stuff so I assumed personal religions were involved. Kuronue | Talk 19:55, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

ETA: I also agree that race, faith, et cetera shouldn't be involved, but that doesn't mean they never are. Kuronue | Talk 19:56, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

No, I don't think religious issues are playing a big part here. I can agree:

• I'd like the subject of the article defined in something other then a religious organisation's mission statement terms
• I'd like the subject to start at A and progress to Z in some sort of logical fashion
• I'd like statements to be cited and sourced from verifiable sources

The problem seems to be that there are a number of traditions about Michael and, as always, some contradict. The right thing to do is to report each tadition and cite them per WP:RS. I really can't get over here right away either, but there seem to be many editors involved here. I'll do what I can. -- Secisek (talk) 20:51, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Where there exist shared concepts between groups, the convention in Wikipedia and outside of it, is to process them in chronological order, and to provide an introduction to the subject which adopts a definition that is inclusive and neutral.--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 02:08, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Still with you so far...--Secisek (talk) 02:12, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Michael as the Lord's Commander

In the Old testament, the book of Joshua, it clearly states that "Joshua fell with his face to the ground in reverence before the Lord's Commander. The Lord's Commander also tells Joshua "to take off his sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy." This clearly shows that there are should be no conflicts on Michael being the Lord's Commander in the book of Joshua. The Lord's commander allowed Joshua to worship him. An angel would never allow anyone to bow/worship him because they give all the glory to God. This clearly cuts off Michael as being the Lord's Commander and puts Jesus directly in the picture. Also, in the book of Daniel, there was also an occurence when Daniel bowed down to Gabriel, but Gabriel stood him up and he didn't allow him to bow dow to him. About Joshua being told to take off his sandals because he is standing on holy ground, the only other time this occured was in the book of Exodus when God's presence was in a burning bush and he commanded Moses to take his sandals off becuase he is standing on Holy ground. Again, it wasn't an angel, it was God. I think this part of the article should be removed because it has no proof on Michael, the archangel, being the Lord's commander in the book of Joshua.

--Carlo ms06 (talk) 18:57, 7 July 2008 (UTC)