Talk:Michael (archangel)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
          This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject Judaism (Rated C-class, High-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Judaism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Judaism-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 High  This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Christianity / Bible / Saints / Latter Day Saints (Rated C-class, Mid-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Christianity, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Christianity on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Mid  This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by WikiProject Bible.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by WikiProject Saints (marked as Top-importance).
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by WikiProject Latter Day Saint movement (marked as Mid-importance).
 
WikiProject Islam (Rated C-class, Mid-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Islam, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Islam-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Mid  This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Occult (Rated C-class, Mid-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Occult, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles related to the occult on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Mid  This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Death (Rated C-class, Mid-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Death, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Death on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Mid  This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Religion / Interfaith (Rated C-class, Mid-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Religion, a project to improve Wikipedia's articles on Religion-related subjects. Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards, or visit the wikiproject page for more details.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Mid  This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by Interfaith work group.
 
WikiProject Mythology  
WikiProject icon This article is supported by WikiProject Mythology. This project provides a central approach to Mythology-related subjects on Wikipedia. Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards, or visit the WikiProject page for more details.
 ???  This article has not yet received a rating on the project's quality scale.
 ???  This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Paranormal  
WikiProject icon This article falls under the scope of WikiProject Paranormal, which aims to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to the paranormal and related topics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the attached article, help with current tasks, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and discussions.
 ???  This article has not yet received a rating on the project's quality scale.
 ???  This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Skepticism  
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Skepticism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of science, pseudoscience, pseudohistory and skepticism related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
 ???  This article has not yet received a rating on the project's quality scale.
 ???  This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Alternative Views  
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Alternative Views, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of significant alternative views in every field, from the sciences to the humanities. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion.
 ???  This article has not yet received a rating on the project's quality scale.
 ???  This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
 

LDS teaching[edit]

Would this be a place to mention the older and now-unaccepted LDS teaching that Michael was also God the Father and Adam? See the Wiki article on the Adam-God doctrine.--Richardson mcphillips (talk) 16:01, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

Defunct interpretations of minor denominations would almost certainly constitute undue weight.--Jeffro77 (talk) 07:57, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

Undue weight under "Protestant Views"[edit]

Spurgeon's opinion is extremely rare vs the majority of published Protestant theology. This part of the article should be written from a more balanced & neutral POV, or be filled with tons of opposing viewpoints. --Purrhaps (talk) 09:29, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

Scriptural vs Scripture[edit]

The article currently reads again (after my edit was reversed): Contents ~ 1 Scriptural references ~ 1.1 Hebrew Bible ~ 1.2 New Testament ~ 1.3 Quran

“Scripture”, noun = a sacred quote FROM the “book”

Is it Scripture? asks a person not familiar with Scripture -- emphasis on the quotation.

“Scriptural”, adj = a teaching, faithful TO the book

Is it scriptural? asks a person not familiar with doctrine -- emphasis on the trueness of the quotation comments.

In my opinion, a lot of Wiki information is not Scriptural. It is Bible-Based, but not True-to-Scripture. Anyway, in the context of these headings, Scripture References” is more accurate & appropriate than Scriptural References”. --Purrhaps (talk) 09:24, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

The adjective "scriptural" properly describes the references. As an adjective it doesn't mean 'a teaching' as suggested above. It is awkward and unnecessary to juxtapose the two nouns scripture and references for the subheading in question. Your implication about whether something is 'scriptural' in the sense that it is 'consistent with (a particular person's) interpretation of scripture' is outside the context of a secular encyclopedia (and whether something is supposedly 'true to scripture' is almost always a contested POV among various brands of 'believer' anyway).--Jeffro77 (talk) 11:37, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

To illustrate my point, References From Various Scriptures is less awkward than References From Various Scripturals. --Purrhaps (talk) 12:14, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

Your 'illustration' is malformed. It's like complaining that it's 'wrong' to say "American people" because it doesn't make sense to say "people from American". Is English your first language?--Jeffro77 (talk) 12:20, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

Here goes another shot from Jeffro. I could say is thinking a new experience for you? -- but that would be just replying in (un)kind. I was trying to improve the article. Leave it your way. Take care. --Purrhaps (talk) 12:27, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

I correctly pointed out that your suggestion was not an improvement.--Jeffro77 (talk) 12:35, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
My edit is a definite improvement (illustrated above), but you conveniently side-stepped you shooting down the PERSON, rather than the POINT. --Purrhaps (talk) 14:06, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
Incorrect. Your 'illustration' demonstrates that you are trying to use these words as if in a religious setting, wherein people very frequently assert undemonstrable unfalsifiable theological opinions as if they are 'really' some kind of 'ultimate truth' (as if so-called 'holy books'—mostly by entirely anonymous authors—are actually some kind of objective 'authority'). Wikipedia articles should not assert that any interpretation of 'scripture' is 'more true' than any other, and the subsection heading should instead simply use the correct grammar, which is the adjective scriptural for identifying references that pertain to scriptures.--Jeffro77 (talk) 07:56, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

"References" (eg. Pr.1:7,29; 9:10) should be changed to "Quotations" (ref + the quote).

Pr.1:7 ~ The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of knowledge: [but] fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Pr.1:29 ~ For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

Pr.9:10 ~ The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy [is] understanding. -- Purrhaps (talk) 21:42, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

The references to verses in Proverbs don't seem to have anything to do with Michael or any other archangels. You seem to be using them as some kind of hypothetical superstitious 'threat' or, at the very least, vapid religious 'advice'. Bible verses are not incantations, and using 'scriptures' at Talk pages in this manner is not appropriate.
As to your actual claim that "references" should be changed to "quotations", you are incorrect. The section is about scriptural references to Michael. Calling them "quotations to Michael" would be nonsensical.--Jeffro77 (talk) 00:42, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

We see things so differently, on so many things. "Quotations About Michael from Various Scriptures" is what you seem to be meaning with your title, "Scripture References". ~ And sorry that you took offense & took the verses personally. "References" are just the address where the quotation comes from, but that doesn't seem to communicate. Oh well.-- Purrhaps (talk) 05:28, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

You're going around in circles. At no point did I suggest the wording "scripture references", which employs a noun in place of the correct adjective. Scriptural references refers to references to Michael in scriptures. Your verbose alternative is not an improvement.
And it is not a matter of 'taking the verses personally', but the irrelevant selection of scriptures that imply a judgemental religious point of view at a Talk page that is the problem.--Jeffro77 (talk) 07:39, 11 September 2016 (UTC)