Talk:Electric car

Image selection and order

I think the most interesting images should be first on the page. More interesting are highway capable electric cars. Less interesting are vehicles limited to the neighborhood. For example the GM EV-1 should be first since it was the best spec vehicle. What do you think? If you agree please make the changes.   Daniel.Cardenas (talk) 18:27, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Agree. The EV-1 is still the best car (of any type) ever designed. 199.125.109.42 (talk) 02:18, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

an obvious advantage that is rarely discussed

is that electricity is an all-use energy source nowadays. You power your stereo, your lights, anything with it. Electric cars won't need to have extra power sources. I see that rarely or never discussed. Actually I see it never discussed while it's so obvious. I hope there are sources on it to be included in the article. --Leladax (talk) 14:56, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Comparison to Internal Combustion Vehicles - Running costs section. - Criticism.

This section and its reference on internal combustion engines used to justify it, has compared the total efficiency of some of the least efficient (American) gasoline engined cars including all vehicle losses, solely to charge/discharge efficiency of an EV. This is misleading as it excludes vehicle efficiency losses for electric cars but includes them for gasoline powered cars, and so is not comparing like with like. Comparable figures for engine efficiency only are Gasoline engine 27% and TDI Diesel engine 44%. [1] Checked - VOLVO says - 30% and 45%.

This section only refers to 'internal combustion engines' making no distinction between petrol/gasoline and diesel engines - again misleading as diesel engines are nearing twice the efficiency of a petrol/gasoline engine.

The section completely disregards the fact the most vehicle users will use power from the grid. 40% Efficiency at the Power Station - 75% Grid transmission loss = 10% efficiency at the socket. On that basis overall efficiency is 0.81*0.1=8.1% rather than 32%. [[2]] Cock-up here - UK transmission losses 7% approx. But US DOE says 9.5% for USA [3] and 'The average thermal efficiency is around 33%.' in US Power plants - not 40%. The same reference shows the US grid is seriously under invested and having trouble meeting current US demand. I think I got the original 75% loss figure from when I was at school and it represented the total UK efficiency loss of the power station and grid transmission at the time.

So total generation and transmission efficiency is: 33%-9.5%=29.865 Converting that for car use is: 0.29865*0.81=0.2419 or 24.19% rather 32%. So Electric Car = 24.19%, Diesel = 45%, Petrol/Gasoline = 30% - All figures do not include vehicle losses E.G. (Tyre friction, Aerodynamic drag) and so are like for like comparison.

Critiqued and amended by the original poster in italics.

If the object of the exercise in looking at alternatives to conventional vehicles is to reduce Co2 emissions, then that has to mean using the most efficient vehicle you can buy. That currently is a diesel and not an EV with 8.1% efficiency. A TDI vehicle is 36% more efficient AND can run on renewable waste fuel. Electric vehicles did not win the US 'Tour de Sol' competition for greenest car, a VW TDI running on Waste Vegetable Oil did. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.119.112.115 (talk) 03:30, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I see 3 problems with that: it's very POV; it's entirely unsourced; & your math is terrible. 44% efficiency v 8.1% isn't 36% better, it's 36 points better, or about 5.5 times better: 0.44/0.081. TREKphiler ^{hit me ♠} 04:09, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

OK, I've ripped into what was a pretty horrible mess and probably made it worse. Do others agree that the headings are right now, and that they are in the right order (I have no particualr opinion there)? I've then distributed the various facts, rants, factoids and so on into the appropriate headers, and deleted the worst of the soapboxing. Next step is to decide on what representative fuel consumption vs energy consumption we want to compare and apply them consistently. Pricing is aproblem since it will change. I added some uncited statements that are more thoughtstarters than encyclopedic statements.Greg Locock (talk) 08:44, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

OY SHOUTY. Can you stop using all caps? So, we have a reference for the 9.5% http://www.energetics.com/gridworks/grid.html (interesting number), can you get one for the 33%<Late edit I see it in that same article, great>? I suggest that you don't hot link refs in Talk pages, just use normal text. I'll edit the article, that's a 30% overall efficiency. Greg Locock (talk) 02:17, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

I didn't edit my mistakes out. I used caps to differentiate what I had been posted at 2 different times, as a correction - not to shout. The 33% power station efficiency is the same US DOE reference as the transmission loss.

Electric Generation

America operates a fleet of about 10,000 power plants. The average thermal efficiency is around 33%. Efficiency has not changed much since 1960 because of slow turnover of the capital stock and the inherent inefficiency of central power generation that cannot recycle heat. Power plants are generally long-lived investments; the majority of the existing capacity is 30 or more years old.

Mr IP 85.119.112.115, according to this Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_power_transmission#Losses

the electric power transmission losses are 7.2%. And you are not including the transmission losses for oil. Oil has to be shipped from the Middle East, then trucked across America. I cant put a number on that but I am guessing that is pretty high loss. Oh, you have to refine it as well. Bluetd (talk) 23:25, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

(a) You can't use wiki as a reference, you need to use external referneces (b) the loss is about 15%, it also applies to the fuel for the power station so it is roughly a wash. Well/coal pit to socket/bowser efficiencies would make more sense I agree, but for the purposes of comparison I don't think it makes a huge difference. If you can find good sources put them in. Greg Locock (talk) 03:17, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

We are on the talk page - I can use Wiki as a ref here. Bluetd (talk) 20:33, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Sure, but in the article the figure given is externally referenced by a reasonable source. I don't know how we decide between the two.Greg Locock (talk) 01:24, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

The US DOE reference says 9.5% for the US Grid. The Wikipedia page included UK grid efficiency references. I believe that the total efficiency of all the types of vehicles should be used, (from the oil well / coal mine / Co2 created building wind turbines, nuclear power and extra grid capacity etc, for fuel, and to include car transmissions, aerodynamics, friction etc, and the Co2 emissions from building new cars as opposed to retrofitting), because that indicates the actual amount of Co2 they put into the atmosphere. It would also be a like for like comparison. The objective is reduced Co2 emissions not a particular technology. The section was misleading, because it ignored where electric propulsion most loses efficiency, and used slanted information to mislead about the efficiency of internal combustion engines. The comparable efficiencies above also brings into question equivalent MPG figures for electric cars. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.119.112.171 (talk) 13:36, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

There have been many studies comparing the CO2 emissions of electric vehicles vs. gasoline/diesel vehicles, and an accurate statement is that the electric car is 60 to 100% less than the gasoline/diesel vehicles. Someone is doing some really strange math to come up with such nonsense as is currently in the article. or was in the article - I'm about to delete it as total OR. The main point, though is that with a gasoline or diesel car it is impossible to keep CO2 from the atmosphere, while with an electric car it is easy - just charge it from solar panels/wind turbines. One recent study includes road maintenance, and while I interpret black differently than they do (where it says black, substitute light gray, where it says gray substitute dark gray), they predict a 50% reduction in CO2 even including road maintenance (most big trucks don't run on electric, although Beijing has 6,000 electric trash trucks now, just for the olympics).[4] 199.125.109.129 (talk) 07:58, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Reference? "There have been many studies comparing the CO2 emissions of electric vehicles vs. gasoline/diesel vehicles, and an accurate statement is that the electric car is 60 to 100% less than the gasoline/diesel vehicles. Someone is doing some really strange math to come up with such nonsense as is currently in the article." The 'strange math' was referenced from a solid source - where's yours? "The main point, though is that with a gasoline or diesel car it is impossible to keep CO2 from the atmosphere, while with an electric car it is easy - just charge it from solar panels/wind turbines." Did you bother to see that you can have the most efficient engine type and run it on renewable fuel? Did you not read the US DOE link that most electricity in the US is fossil based? or do you only charge up at home?

Yes there certainly is a lot of 'strange math' associated with electric cars. Dude! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.119.112.139 (talk) 00:57, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

the list

An editor removed the list with the following comment"Removed table as per wp:pov and wp:or. Any "selected" list needs a source supporting the specific selection otherwise the selection criteria are personal POV and/or original research"

Another editor added a new list, with similar problems

I removed it, using the same edit summary.

Dicklyon then (Reverted 1 edit by Greglocock; It would be better to add to the list to make it more complete than to delete it. (TW)) (undo)

No, either the list has to be complete or the criteria for inclusion havbe to be externally sourced. I don't see any middle ground, and it obviously cannot be complete. Greg Locock (talk) 22:26, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I see plenty of middle ground. There are many lists of electric cars on the web. Just reference one of them. Here is one for example: http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aacarselectric2a.htm Or we can reference several of the lists out there. Seems kind of silly though. Who created the list? Just a person not too different than us. Daniel.Cardenas (talk) 04:03, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

A list criterion that's commonly used on wikipedia is "notable" in the WP sense; that is, list items that have articles about them. I don't see a problem in the current case, though; the criterion "currently available" seems perfectly reasonable, whether or not someone else has used it. Where does this idea come from that a list must be based on a sourced criterion? And what do you mean by "has to be complete"? Who can decide when it is complete enough? Dicklyon (talk) 06:59, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

You might want to check "List of Supercars" for my prior history there. Basically lists are unworkable unless defined by a criterion that is well supported by WP:RS,- they are hard to maintain, usually unreferenced, and subjective, boring and incomplete. Some lists have a purpose, but a shopping list of EVs looks like a total bore to me. Cats are a better solution, I am told. Incidentally, why not ask the original editor what they meant? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Greglocock (talk • contribs) 10:37, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I couldn't figure out what felines had to do with the discussion - perhaps you meant categories? The main advantage of a list over a Category:Production electric vehicles, is that you can add interesting details such as range, cost, and performance, and sort on each column. By the way, any reason the Tesla Roadster isn't on the list? 199.125.109.129 (talk) 07:55, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Grins, well that kind of makes my point. Every new electric car that comes out should go on the list, pushing interesting content off the bottom of the page. Oh well, looks like people want it, let's give it a month. Greg Locock (talk) 11:53, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Feel the power

"powered from sustainable electricity sources (e.g. solar energy)"? Who says terrestrial solar is "sustainable"? (What does that mean, anyhow? I've yet to see it quantified.) Is terrestrial solar to be used for nothing else? Are EVs to use nothing else? How's that to be enforced? Or are the charging stations going to be marked "solar"? This is another example of green zealotry: make it look as good as possible & ignore the flaws. TREKphiler ^{hit me ♠} 10:47, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

The sentence reads "CO2 and other greenhouse gas emissions are minimal for electric cars powered from sustainable electricity sources." It seems clear enough here that sustainable means not involving the burning of fossil fuels or other fuels that are not "farmed" in some sense. Perhaps there's a more explicit or clearer way to say it? There's nothing in this sentence that suggests any policy, exclusivity, enforcement, etc., nor that applies to electric cars powered by electricity from fossil fuels; the previous sentenced does comment on electricity from other sources already. Want to improve it? There are better ways than carping at it. Dicklyon (talk) 15:37, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Price in vehicles list table

To be of any use this needs also to specify the market where that price is available, and give a reference. The Tesla Roadster is listed at $100,000, in the UK it is £92,000 (about $170,000 today). The REVA is listed at $15,000, in the UK it is about £10,000 ($18,500). If we say it is the U.S. market, then we'll need a column for each other market. What is the solution - should we delete this column altogether? -- de Facto (talk). 12:41, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

There being no apparent views, one way or the other on this, I removed the prices from the lists. -- de Facto (talk). 09:04, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Split of 'Currently available electric cars' list

The list has been split into two sections: "Low speed" and "Expressway capable". Are these generally and consistently internationally used definitions? If they are, we need to reference them and explain the qualifying factors. If they aren't, and the categorisation of individual cars cannot be referenced, then I think we need to re-combine the lists into one. An arbitrary editor decision as to whether a car belongs in one list or the other (the Buddy being "Expressway capable" for example) is surely original research. -- de Facto (talk). 09:01, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

The minimum speed on many US interstates is 45 mph. Any car that can not meet that speed is clearly not freeway capable. You can't mix in the NEVs with the Tesla. It just doesn't make any sense. Call them whatever you wish, but keep them separate. The only real difference is their speed - one group goes over 45 mph, the other less. Oh, and you can't use NEV, because that is a stupid US only designation. I was going to use "high speed", but 130 mph is barely moving, in my opinion of what real speed is today. What is the minimum speed on the Autobahn, 60 kph (37 mph)? Since 45 mph is higher I would stick with that. 199.125.109.89 (talk) 06:03, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

The categorisation then, is based only on which vehicles can/cannot use many U.S. interstates. That is probably not a strong enough reason to maintain those U.S. specific categories, in what should be an international article, so I favour merging the lists back into one. So long as the maximum speed is listed, then those who are interested in knowing which ones can be used on their local interstate will have enough information to judge that for themselves. -- de Facto (talk). 08:18, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

No, it is based on which can use the Autobahn, in Germany, as well as those that can use US interstates. And honestly, putting both in the same table would be like putting electric cars in with golf carts or barbie cars. They are massively different types of vehicles, the low speed ones for city use and the normal car type ones for highway use. 199.125.109.129 (talk) 04:32, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

I think de Facto's point is not that there's not a distinction to be made, but that the distinction needs to be sourced. What cutoff is used to define autobahn-capable, or whatever, and who classifies EVs into these two classes? Bring a source, or leave them all in one table if there's no source for a categorical split. Dicklyon (talk) 06:47, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

In the U.S. there is federal law about NEVs versus other cars. Daniel.Cardenas (talk) 14:03, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Sounds perfect; what's a source for that criterion? Dicklyon (talk) 15:12, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

They are speed limited to 25mph and don't have to be crash tested and don't have to meet a ton of other rules for regular cars. Daniel.Cardenas (talk) 16:37, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

25 mph sets the bar too low, I think you might be better off having three sections. Golf cart wannabees (NEVs), town cars, and high speed commuter cars. Jeremy Clarkson says 60hp is the lower limit of acceptability on motorways. So I could find a citeable reference for that as a split(grins). Greg Locock (talk) 23:28, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

25 mph is a silly limit, perhaps chosen so that the centurions who drive them around won't do any damage. If I was more paranoid I would say it was chosen so that no one would want to buy them. Most of them can get hotrodded to illegally remove the speed restriction though. Many of the 25 mph ones are speed limited 35 mph ones. There is no need for three groups. Autobahn capable is very precisely defined - any vehicle capable of a sustained speed of 60 kph (37 mph). To make the category more international, 45 mph is a more reasonable cut off. The Reva is the only one that is straddling both groups. 60 hp is a lot for an electric car. I really don't think that motor size should be used as the criteria. Speed is much more important. For example, would you put an 80 hp car that could only do 15 mph in with a 60 hp one that could do 80 mph? 199.125.109.29 (talk) 02:37, 11 September 2008 (UTC)