Talk:Flag carrier

Air France-KLM

What does this footnote for Air France mean? "Air France was (and is still considered by many) the designated national carrier before it was merged with the Dutch airlines KLM" It doesn't matter how many people consider it to be so, it is not actually the national carrier any more. Besides, this is an article on FLAG carriers, not NATIONAL carriers, and the wiki page on Air France itself says that it is no longer considered the flag carrier since the merger. The table needs to be changed.dzhastin (talk) 18:29, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Flag Carrier for the UK

On my flight out of LAX airport I saw the virgin atlantic 747-400 G-VHOT "Tubular Belle" at my terminal, the aircraft is clearly marked with the words "Britain's flag carrier", also it shows the image of "belle" in red holding more than three union jack flags. I am really confused since I always subconsciously associated British Airways with the flag carrier of the UK, but again what I see contradicts with it, also with what is written under this entry, can anybody clear this issue? Thanks a lot in advance Laforet (talk) 06:44, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Proposed merger

Isn't "Listed national flag carriers" the same as List of national airlines? ironcito 03:15, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree, it should be merged because the two lists are basically the same. Flymeoutofhere 12:15, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

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• Wikiweakness #977 – statements of commonly held beliefs are presented among verifiable facts as if the beliefs too were verified fact.

I agree too. The definition of flag carrier is too vague. You could have a list of "State owned and operated national airlines", but countries like Canada and the US would not be on this list since all their airlines are privately owned and operated. However, in some countries, like China, virtually all airlines are state owned and operated. In fact, in China, a single governmental department buys all aircraft and distributes it among the state owned and operated airlines. I would have to agree that Air China is no more the sole "flag carrier" of China than American Airlines is the sole "flag carrier" of the US.

I recommend the list in this article be removed. user:mnw2000 20:24, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Flag carrier for USA

The assertion that the United States of America has two “unofficial” flag carriers is not only unfounded, it misses the obvious. If the United States did, in fact, have a flag carrier, it would be state-owned. Because there are no state-owned carriers in the United States then wouldn’t the airline named after the country be the flag carrier?

American Airlines obviously borrows its name from the continent (as does the nation, i.e. the United States of…)The Wiki page for American Airlines claims that the name American Airways was used as a common brand by a number of independent air carriers. United Airlines, according to the Wikipage, derived its name from United Aircraft - Transport Corp, not from the “United States” as implied on this page.

Information found on Wikipedia is, at best, suspect due to the innumerable weaknesses of the Wikiconcept, but the least WikiScribblers can due is make an effort to see that the claims are somewhat consistant! Why not check the related Wikipage before making goofy claims?

Herd mentality directs people to assume that any airline named after a country is the “flag carrier.” If that were actualy true then neither United nor American would be the flag carrier of the United Stets – it would be USAirways, the only one of the three specifically named after the nation. 202.161.131.69 06:26, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree that there is no flag carrier for the US, and propose removing American Airlines from that position for the US and for Puerto Rico. 70.22.61.5 19:26, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I propose that American Airlines remain the flag carrier of Puerto Rico. If you live in P.R., you'd know that AA dominates half the airport and it's the airline we rely on to get to the US. Although other US airlines land here, American's presence is more dominant. Besides, AA has a hub here in PR so I defend American as PR's national airline. Regarding the US's national carrier, the US doesn't own any airline, but some airlines are used by the US goverment and military: ATA's L-1011 are used as charters for transporting troops. My uncle traveled to Germany with USAirways, and the flight was paid by the FAA(he works with them). Also, what someone said about USAirways being the flag carrier is plausible, yet it doesn't fit with the description of a national carrier and other airlines have made their presence clear around the world, like American, Delta, Continental, Northwest, and United. Also, if defunct airlines were classified as flag carriers, Pan Am would have been the flag carrier alongside Eastern. Einsteinboricua 16:04, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

While flag carrier is not the same as national airline (the latter implies state ownership), the US does not have a flag carrier. The fact that AA is the largest does not automatically give them that title. If people insist on putting the US in the list, then all 6 major US carriers should be listed. DB (talk) 16:22, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore, AA is not the Puerto Rican flag carrier. Having a hub somewhere does not make an airline a flag carrier. Should Northwest be a Japanese flag carrier because of its hub in Tokyo? Flag carrier implies that the airline carries the country's flag (i.e. it is based in that country - or in this case, territory). American is based in Texas, not Puerto Rico. DB (talk) 16:26, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I am new to this discussion, but it seems obvious that there is a difference of opinion as to what a flag carrier is. This article has two definitions, and since there is no state owned carieer in the US, the first must be the only one that matter with regard to the US. Thus, "A transportation company, such as a shipping or airline company, that is registered in a given state" would apply to almost every US carrier. Certianlly, an argument could be made that Delta or US Air would be considered US flag carriers by this definition.

I propose that the second definition only apply. A carrier that is state owned or operated by a department of the state. Since all US carriers are privately owned and/or operated, then there should be NO flag carriers listed for the US and the PR. user:mnw2000 19:58, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Come to think about it, the US has not had a designation national carrier since the days of Pan Am when it was the only carrier allowed to fly internationally. I like the listing that is now being used. user:mnw2000 03:12, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

The United States DOES have a definition for "US Flag Air Carriers" according to the Federal Aviation Act of 1958 (49 U.S.C. App. 1371) and the Fly America Act. The Fly America Act requires that federally funded international travel must be done on a US Flag Air Carrier (when possible). There are 15 designated flag carriers for the US, though no state operated ones. Since this is one of the few hard definitions of a flag carrier it needs to be recognized. dzhastin (talk) 19:01, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Here is a good read on the topic http://www.dartmouth.edu/~cto/policy/usflagaircarriers.html 69.237.88.63 (talk) 08:22, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Unofficial?

Who out there is actually determining which airline is “unofficially” the flag carrier?! What a preposterous thing to write. It isn’t as if there is some sanctioning body overseeing the official licensing of “official” flag carriers. This ought to be listed as a “wikiweakness” as well. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

63.219.0.9 08:18, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

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Get rid os the Erroneous Claims

Claiming that American, United, or USAir are the “flag carriers” of the United States is simply erroneous. Fans, employees, and stockholders of those commercial companies may want very much to be able to boast that their airline is the “flag carrier” but in fact, by definition, the United States has never had a flag carrier. Whoever inserted the claim that American and United are both “unofficial” flag carriers is simply ignorant of the definition of, “flag carrier.” I suggest that such a ridiculous claim be removed – the United States should not be on the list because the United States government owns no part of any commercial airline.

Incorrect examples in the list?

• “Mexico - Aeromexico, Mexicana (unofficial)” – as is the case with the United States, there are no “unofficial” flag carriers. By the definition used on this Wikipage, either Aeromexico and Mexicana are “flag carriers,” or Aeromexico and Mexicana are not “flag carriers.” There is no “unofficial” status.

• TAM is NOT the flag carrier of Brazil. Until 1965 it was Panair do Brasil, than Varig. Currently, after the financial troubles of Varig, Brazil does not have a true flag carrier. Even considering that TAM has a small Brazilian flag painted on its aircraft. Other companies also have small flags painted, not meaning that it is really a "flag carrier". Moreover, BRA ("Brasil RodoAereo") even has the name of the country in its own name, has several international scheduled and charter flights, but cannot as well be called a Brazilian "flag carrier". Currently, the concept of flag carrier in Brazil has the same trouble that for US. Actually, Brazil no longer has a flag carrier.
• GOL Transportes Aéreos has only a handful of flights leaving Brazil, and only to South America. Classify it as a flag carrier is a complete proof of ignorance. Gol bought Varig, but the merger is subject to regulations, and the brands will remain independent. Of these two, only Varig is flying to Europe and has plans to fly back to US. Gol does not.

• “China, People's Republic of - Air China” – there are a number of Chinese carriers branded with different names but under the same administrative control. In essence, all of the carriers in China are part of one, big, state-owned entity. Therefore, how can there be one “flag carrier”?

• “Hong Kong - Cathay Pacific” – Since June of 1997 Hong Kong has been part of China, therefore how can one city within the nation have a “flag carrier”? Does Canton also have a “flag carrier”? Does Shanghai have its own “flag carrier”?

• “Hong Kong - Cathay Pacific” – Since June of 1997 Hong Kong has been part of China, therefore how can one city within the nation have a “flag carrier”? Does Canton also have a “flag carrier”? Does Shanghai have its own “flag carrier”? " Hong Kong is a special case. To all intents and purposes it really is a different country. It has its own legal system and currency etc. etc.

• “China cases” – When the day that Wiki is open in china mainland, these kind of question can be serious. Wiki will get more and more bad impacts day by day. Such as Taiwan, Hong Kong and Macau, whether they have flag carrier or not, they should be written under CHINA, but not separately. Think about the future of Wiki. You cannot say that Hongkong, Macau and Taiwan are different countries from China until the day when there are their "national flags" hanging in the front of the building of United Nations.

In the case of Hong Kong, Macau, Puerto Rico, Guam, and other non-nation entities, you could say that they can not have a flag carrier on their own. (I am sure that Delta would like to call themselves the flag carrier of Atlanta.) However, Taiwan is a special case. It is not a member of the UN due to a political decision. However, Taiwan controls their own air traffic system, their own air space and aircraft registered their. By the way, Air China is the ONLY airline that carries the Flag of the PRC. user:mnw2000 20:42, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

A flag carrier is not the same as a national airline. A national airline is state-owned. A flag-carrier may or may not be state-owned, and may or may not be officially designated as "the" flag carrier for a country. It is more of a common use issue than anything. Most countries have one dominant airline that carries that country's flag. It is commonly referred to as the flag carrier. For example, Air Canada is privately owned, but it is often called Canada's "flag carrier". The US really doesn't have one "flag carrier", though. At the very least, the big 6 are all considered US fc's, plus probably Southwest due to its size and success. DB (talk) 02:45, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Same goes for Mexico. Aeromexico is probably more widely known, but Mexicana has enough attention to fall into that category. DB (talk) 02:47, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I just looked at the list above in more detail. The comments on Brazil were correct. TAM really isn't the flag carrier there. It's not state-owned, nor officially designated, nor is it even the best-known airline in Brazil. Varig was the flag carrier, and even after the financial problems, its still the best-known Brazilian airline, but the country really doesn't have a flag carrier now. DB (talk) 02:49, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

The purpose of the chart is that there is no one definition of flag carrier. The most simply definition is that the plane flies the national flag on its plane. TAM does fly the Flag of Brazil. Of course, as you know, it is not a national airlines and the chart reflects that.

Still on the TAM question: looking in spotters websites, like airliners.net, we can see in detail that all major Brazilian airlines feature a small Brazilian flag on its livery. TAM, BRA and OceanAir chose to paint it next to the frontal windows, Varig and GOL painted it in the rear part of the fuselage, next to the horizontal stabilizer. All of them use flags of about the same size. If the criteria to define a "flag carrier" were the existence of the country flag on the planes, then all these airliners should be called flag carriers. In fact, almost all company in the world, if not all, paint a small flag of the country on its aircraft. In the case of TAM, the photo in this article is misleading. It refers to a proposed Airbus A350, and the huge size of the Brazilian flag on the fictitious painting is not the real size on the true planes. The meaning of a "flag carrier" is certainly more related to how well the company is known outside the country, and the perception that foreigners have about the company and its ties to the country of origin (like Qantas to Australia or Air Canada to Canada, but maybe not Delta to United States, for example, though some may think differently). User:Winkler 22:10, 13 January 2007 (GMT-3)

I suggest that we remove the chart from the "Flag Carrier" article and create a new article called "List of National Airlines". The article would then simply be a description of what the term flag carrier means and use to mean. user:mnw2000 05:15, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

• Taiwan is seperate from China. China is a making a false claim that they own it. The US considers it a seperate country.

Air Canada Not State Owned or Designated

Why is Air Canada cited as an example of a state owned or designated flag carrier? To my knowledge, it is neither. It may well be an example of a flag carrier, but for neither of the reasons given in the article. --207.161.33.151 16:12, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Air Canada is a crown corporation in Canada, so it has a special status that other airlines in Canada don't have. 70.22.61.5 19:26, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

A Canadian crown corporation has at least some portion of ownership or direct investment by the Government of Canada. Now Air Canada may have once have met this criteria, but since coming out of bankruptcy reorganization in 2004 it's been 100% private-owned by ACE Aviation Holdings. Based on the company's historical legacy I suppose it's fine calling it a flag carrier, but I don't think it's really a crown corporation anymore, and I'm certain that it doesn't get any special treatment over other Canadian airlines. If anything the Canadian government probably has place more regulatory restriction on it due to it's marketshare. Achou79 18:21, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

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Taiwan is not a part of mainland China. See the Taiwan Wiki. It is to all intents a separate country albeit not recognised by the UN to avoid antagonising China. Therefore it is perfectly able to have a Flag Carrier

States that have NO flag carrier, that is state owned or operated airlines

I proposed that we begin a new section that lists countries that have no flag airlines. Then remove all these countries from the list of flag carriers.

Countries and Territories that have NO flag carrier

Country/Territory	Largest Airline registered in this country	Notes
Canada	Air Canada
Puerto Rico		American Airlines is largest airlines operating here
United States	American Airlines

user:mnw2000 18:09, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

The more I look into it, this list can no longer be considered factual. Virtually every aircraft registered in the US carries the US flag, and, therefore, is considered a flag carrier. In China, virtually all aircraft is owned by the state, but only Air China aircraft carries the flag of the PRC. In Canada, several airlines, other than Air Canada, carries the flag of Canada, but only Air Canada is listed as a flag carrier.

If this chart is to be accurate, then it should carry all airlines that carrier the national flag on its aircraft. Of course, that would be unyielding for countries like the US, most countries in Europe, etc.

user:mnw2000 18:09, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Since there are so many definitions, how about converting it into a table which goes like this:

Country/Territory	Airline	Designated National airline	Designated Flag carrier	State-owned
United States	American Airlines	No	Yes	No

I am proposing this half in jest, but it might just work. :)--Huaiwei 18:35, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I like your chart. My only issue is whether some countries, like the US, have a single flag carrier. Is American Airlines any more a US flag carrier than United Airlines, Delta Airlines or US Airways? Just because the name is American doesn't give it any more right to be called the sole flag carrier than Delta Airlines. For countries that don't have a designated airlines as its flag carrier, such as China (Air China), we could simply list it as the largest airlines.

Country/Territory	Airline	National Airline Designated or Historical	Flag Carrier Includes the national flag on its aircraft livery	State-owned	Notes
Canada	Air Canada	Historical		No	Air Canada has the Canadian Mapleleaf as part of its logo
China (PRC)	Air China	Designated	Yes	Yes
Iraq	Iraqi Airways	Designated	Yes
Taiwan	China Airlines	Designated
United Kingdom	British Airways	Historical	Yes	No
United States	American Airlines		Yes	No	American Airlines is the largest US airlines

When referring to the flag carrier of a country, that is more of a common use issue than an official designation. Canadian carriers are privatized and to my knowledge, Air Canada isn't designated by the government as the "official" flag carrier, but it is commonly referred to as Canada's flag carrier. The US does not have one "flag carrier". In essence, all US carriers are flag carriers. AA is the largest overall, but unlike many countries, there is no airline that even comes close to dominating the domestic market. In different regions, different carriers dominate. DB (talk) 03:55, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

How about simply making a clear indication that "flag carrier" in the above table refers to any airline which paints the national flag on its aircraft? At least this should be far less contentious. Or to make things clearer, we could change the "designated Flag Carrier" column above to "paints the national flag on its aircraft" or something like that?--Huaiwei 13:03, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

We have an airlines that is considered the "Sole National Airlines" by official designation (i.e. Air China) or by history (i.e. British Airlines), airlines that carry the national flag or flag carrier, and airlines that are state owned and/or operated. As for the US, there is actually no "Sole National Airlines" and all US airlines carry the American Flag on is aircraft. Therefore, in such a case, I simply listed the largest airlines registered in that country and noted it. I suggest we rename the article "Designated National Airlines" and have "Flag Carrier" link to it. user:mnw2000 14:52, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

"Historical" sounds odd, unless you are refering to them being formerly designated national airlines. Anyway the table dosent require one entry per country. Eg:

Country/Territory	Airline	Designated	Flies the flag	State-owned
People's Republic of China	Air China	Yes	Yes	Majority
	China Eastern Airlines	No	No	Majority
	China Southern Airlines	No	No	Majority
United States	American Airlines	No	Yes	No
	Delta Air Lines	No	Yes	No
	United Airlines	No	Yes	No

Possible entries for each field include:

• Designated: Yes / No
• Flies the flag: Yes / No
• State-owned: Full / Majority / Minority / No--Huaiwei 15:22, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I like the simplicity of your chart. However, many countries has so many airlines, that the chart could be unyielding. China has about 10 different state owned airlines; the US has hundreds of airlines; etc. How do we decide how many airlines for each country to include? Also, since the title of the article is "Flag Carrier", should we include any airlines that does not include the national flag in the livery? How about this: we include a single airlines if that airlines has more than 50% of the air traffic for that country. If no airlines has 50%, then we include all airlines that has more than 25%, which in reality would be limited to three. (I know that many may debate what consitutes market share, but for this article, it does not need to be an exact science. American Airlines and Delta Airlines could be consider to have the larger market share of air traffic depending on the factors used. However, we can all agree that American, United and Delta are the three largest airlines in the US. user:mnw2000 15:50, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

The basis for inclusion is simple. Since we know there are three known "criteria", anyone of which can be interpreted as being a criterion for a "flag carrier" or "national airline", any airline which happens to fit any one of these criteria should be listed. Probably ends up being very unwelding for certain countries, but I dont think they are exhaustive. Do the hundreds of airlines in the US fly the US flag, btw? As for market share, I have to point out it is comparatively uncommon to refer to a "dominant" airline as a "national airline". That many national airlines are protected helps them dominate the local markets, but this phenomena is more of a product then a criteria in itself.--Huaiwei 16:00, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you on this chart. BTW, every aircraft of a US airlines that I have seen had a little US flag (some that seems to be backwards). I think this may be a requirement. user:mnw2000 17:21, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I removed the US for now. China should really just have Air China, since that's the designated flag carrier, which is what the article should be about (since that's the title). However, the US doesn't have a "designated" flag carrier, so any US carrier should really be listed. At the very least, that includes the "Big 6" - AA, UA, DL, NW, CO, and US. Southwest should probably also be included, since it's gotten to be quite a large airline. In most countries that don't have a designated flag carrier, there's one airline that stands out in most people's minds as the primary carrier in that country. It doesn't work like that in the US. Ask someone in Asia and they'll probably say United or Northwest. Ask someone in Europe and they may say Continental. Ask someone in Latin America and they'll say American. In Africa, Delta is the only major US carrier to serve the region. There is no US airline that is prevalent throughout the world; each has a region it focuses on, and it has limited service to other areas. DB (talk) 00:31, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

New Chart

The below chart will replace the list on this article once it is deemed complete.

<Chart has been moved to main page>

How about moving this table to the main article space even before its completion? The history can then accurately reflect the inputs. Meanwhile, perhaps its a good idea to also include the source for each entry above? Just a [1] will do.--Huaiwei 15:40, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

It should be completed soon. I will move it shortly. As for sources, designation is easy in countries like Cuba and Iran, but difficult in countries where all airlines are privately owned like the US. Flying the flag source could be as simple as a photograph of a plane with the flag visibly seen in its livery. State ownership may be a little more difficult. I was using Wikipedia for this information, but it may be found externally as well. user:mnw2000 16:45, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

USA Removal

There are good arguments not to include the US in this article's chart since every US airline carrier is a flag carrier since they all are required to include a US flag in their livery. However, several people made the argument that we should list the top three, even if there are more carriers that carry the flag, to simply be as informative as possible. So the question is on the table: Do we include countries where all carriers registered in the country carry the national flag?

May I suggest we list the top three carriers registered in that country with a reference to a note that states "All carriers registered in this country are required, or do so by tradition, to carry the national flag in their livery. user:mnw2000 02:16, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I think that would introduce a certain POV. Alternatively, how about simply having one link pointing to the category of airlines in a country with an accompanying note explaining the situation?--Huaiwei 04:56, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok I just added it in as an illustration. Comments please?--Huaiwei 05:07, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Huaiwei on this. Why list 3 and not 4 or 5, etc? Just providing a link to the category is the best way to handle it, since that effectively lists all of them without actually putting 100 or so airlines in the list. DB (talk) 06:00, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Looks like we have had many people change the US listing for this chart. The question is whether the US has a flag carrier is settled since all US carriers carry the US flag. The next question is whether we should list a single airlines such as American Airlines, or a category to demonstrate that all US carriers are flag carriers. I am open to both suggestions, but we should discuss it here in the talk page. When I converted the list to a chart, I did not expect such a lively debate on this issue. Maybe the author of this article has a suggestion on the original purpose of this article in defining a flag carrier. (My two cents is that if we list American are we saying that United, Delta, US Air, Continental, and the rest are no flag carriers?) user:mnw2000 06:10, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

The only sensible way to list it is to use the category; otherwise it is implying that UA, DL, CO, and others aren't actually flag carriers. DB (talk) 06:32, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Debate about what is and isn't a flag carrier

The reason the original list was expanded to the current chart is that there is that there is no one definition of flag carrier. There are actually three. The chart has a column for whether the airlines is designated a national carrier (such as Air China), simply has a national flag on its plane (such as TAM) and if the airlines is state-owned.

I suggest that we remove the chart from the "Flag Carrier" article and create a new article called "List of National Airlines". The article would then simply be a description of what the term flag carrier means and use to mean. user:mnw2000 05:15, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

A cautionary note on the new article's name, as "flag carrier" and "national airline" may take on a slightly different meaning. For example, it may be considered politically incorrect to call "flag carriers" of non-independent territories "national airlines".--Huaiwei 05:46, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Germany

I'm quite new to the whole "Flag carrier" concept, but whatever it implies, Air Berlin is NOT a flag-carrier. they are a generic low-cost-airline, as are TUIfly, easyjet or Ryanair. -- ExpImp^talkcon 00:27, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the term "flag carrier" is really vague. One definition is simple, does its planes carry the official national flag in its livery? Air Berlin does. The next is is it the "national carrier". In the early days of air travel, many countries had one airlines that provided international travel. Even the US had given Pan Am a monopoly on international travel for some time. Now this designation is mostly historical. The third is from the old days of air travel as to whether the government owns the airlines (or part of it). Of course, most airlines in the western world are privately owned. Some still maintain a small minority ownership which, by itself, designates that airlines has a special relationship with the government. This does NOT apply to Air Berlin. However, since the German flag flies on each Air Berlin plane, it is a flag carrier by definition. The reason I use a chart is so we can list each of the three criteria to avoid confusion. user:mnw2000 00:43, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

United Kingdom

Wouldn't bmi be more of a national carrier of Britain rather than Virgin? Brylcreem2 13:26, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

From the above comment I'm guessing that at some stage Virgin Atlantic Airways were in the table (at today's edit state it's BAW only for UK); there would certainly be an argument for their presence for UK in the table, as in 1997, when BA went for the "World Images" branding, Virgin introduced the Union Flag onto its aircraft, along with the tagline "Britain's Flag Carrier".Bill Martin 20:00, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

State Owned

The current State Owned column has a status of Full| Majority | Minority | Joint Venture | No. Can I suggest the additional value "Formerly" to designate those carriers which are now privatised but which were once State Owned - it may help explain why, for instance, BAW appears in the UK column but BMA and VIR don't.Bill Martin 20:10, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Gulf Air

According to the Gulf Air page, Gulf Air is now Bahrain's flag carrier since Oman withdrew from the joint venture.

"Designated"

There are several references (including in the table) to whether an airline is a "designated" flag carrier. Who designates, for example, British Airways as such. If it's just that it used to be (when nationalised) or that it's generally considered such, I wouldn't have thought that's good enough for a word like "designated". 81.158.0.164 (talk) 03:10, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

You can actually see the footnote related to British Airways as to why it is an officially "designated" flag carrier. It is ultimately the goal for every entry to have such referencing to avoid allegations of WP:OR.--Huaiwei (talk) 14:42, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Is this article a hoax

I wasnt sure if this article was a hoax or misinterpretation of english. A flag carrier is nothing to do with carrying or showing the flag (or as it says showing the sate flag apparent for public view). The term flag carrier was to do with designated airlines associated with route agreements. Within air service agreements (which came out of the Paris Convention of 1919) each country designated a specific airline (called a flag carrier) for that route. Although most flag carriers were state owned they did not have to be. Once a designated flag carrier on that route an airline had some protection against competition on that route except from the other countries designated carrier. It was also true that flag carriers could not just drop routes if they were set up under the air service agreements. So a flag carrier appears to be an airline designated under an air service agreement to service a particular route. So one country could have 50 air service agreements and 50 different flag carriers, which is why the United States had a number of airlines all designated as flag carriers at the same time but on different routes. A lot of this has been undone by airline and route deregulation. MilborneOne (talk) 16:07, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

The article is a total misinterpretation of the actual definitions of what a flag carrier actually is. Flag carriers and national airlines are two completely different concepts in civil aviation, although for some countries their national airline may be their only flag carrier. Additionally, it is technically impossible for non-sovereign entities, e.g. Faroe Islands, to have a flag carrier, as it doesn't negotiate external treaties with other nations. However, this doesn't apply to all non-sovereign entities, such as Hong Kong, which is responsible for its own treaty negotiations. The lists need complete referencing --Russavia (talk) 16:26, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps the above two users may wish to read preceesing discussions before commenting already discussed issues. While this list definitely suffers from a lack of referencing with plenty of work needed to brush it up to an acceptable standard, it certainly fails to help if the above interpretations of flag carriers/national airlines lack referencing themselves.--Huaiwei (talk) 13:46, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I cant speak for anybody else but the previous discussion on this page only supports the fact that this article is nothing to do with flag carrier but is really about national or nationalised carriers and even that had been debated before. At least agree that a flag carrier is not an airline that has a flag painted on it! which is obviously nonsense. One reference that may be of interest [2]. MilborneOne (talk) 19:20, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

That is a great source worthy of inclusion in the article, although you cannot assume it is the only definition around. That flag carriers are related to actual flags flown is actually related to Maritime laws, so kindly do not discount that fact just because you think the relationship is absurdly simplistic.--Huaiwei (talk) 18:22, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

No I accept that it is only one source I found on a quick search but I still question the maritime law interpretation that All vessels (aircraft or ships) are required to prominently display the national flag of the country of their registry. Does anybody have a more official or NGO definition because if it is law then it would seem that not all aircraft carry the flag of registry against maritime law (which I dont think applies to aircraft anyhow). A quick look at CAP523 from the UK Civil Aviation Authority (The Display of Nationality and Registration Marks on Aircraft: Guidance for Owners)[3] has not mention of mandatory flag markings. Some countries do mandate that all aircraft have a flag display, I think Switzerland is one - presumably we need to list every swiss aircraft as a flag carrier! MilborneOne (talk) 20:00, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

And the United States is another one, hence you will notice all American-registered airlines are already included in the list!--Huaiwei (talk) 21:41, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

shuffle left - I would suggest that this list should not include airlines just because they have a national flag on them and are not the national airline. Interestingly British Airways says flies the flag when in fact it does not appear to have a union flag on it other than a representation of the colours on the tail! MilborneOne (talk) 22:52, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

So how would you handle the case of the US, for example, since non are officially designated, nor are any of that state-owned? Since the rights to fly the US flag is removed as a criterion, the US entry can be removed completely from this list.--Huaiwei (talk) 02:32, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Agree - USA should be removed MilborneOne (talk) 12:12, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Sure. And reignite the long-term disputes over this entry despite repeated efforts to remove them?--Huaiwei (talk) 02:40, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Flag Carrier v. National Carrier

Hope this helps.

A country's 'Flag carriers' are all of the airlines owned partially or wholly by residents of a country. The context that matters is cabotage: in the absence of agreements to the contrary, only a country's 'flag carriers' may carry passengers and cargo between two points in their own country.

'Flag carrier' has often referred to any carrier permitted by a nation to operate international services under the terms of a bilateral or multilateral treaty or agreement. In the context of open skies agreements or LCCs operating within the EU, that definition perhaps has little significance these days. But it still matters to some countries and carriers, so the term does have some currency and I do appreciate the work put into this page.

A national carrier is a carrier partially or wholly owned or operated by a national government.--216.168.60.230 (talk) 22:22, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Source ? MilborneOne (talk) 22:43, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

The Flag Carrier Of The United Kingdom

The three main airlines of the United Kingdom are: British Airways- National Airline and designated Flag Carrier. Virgin Atlantic- Virgin Atlantic holds the title of Britains Flag Carrier on its 747 and has the Union Jack on its winglets but it was never designated the National Flag Carrier, and British Midland Airways.

The Virgin use of Britain's Flag Carrier is a marketing thing and nothing to do with being a designated flag carrier. British Midland is now BMI not really a flag carrier either. MilborneOne (talk) 20:56, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

I am aware British Midland changed names to BMI and I never said BMI was a flag carrier I was just pointing out that it is the third largest airline in the United Kingdom. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.43.191.187 (talk) 21:24, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

OK, I appreciate you are new but note this page is to discuss the article Flag carrier and not the largest airlines of the UK. MilborneOne (talk) 21:41, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, and I was pointing out the flag carrier of the UK, I dont see any harm in doing so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.43.191.187 (talk) 22:04, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

United Arab Emirates

Does Ethiad and Emirates both carry the flag for the UAE or just Ethiad?? I'm confused —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.43.191.187 (talk) 22:29, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Challenge

I cannot understand how this article continues to exists on Wikipedia in its current state. The list is fraud with baseless assumptions and guesswork. It scream WP:OR all over, as the tags suggest. Just because the OR tags are there does not mean it's okay to leave the list as is. The table should be reduced to only national carriers that can be sourced (ie the list should be 20 times less than it is now). The continued allowance of this inaccurate data defies all goals of the Wikipedia project. Rasadam (talk) 06:44, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Ireland's Flag Carrier??

Will Ireland's new proposed airline "RyanAtlantic" take the place of "Aer Lingus" and become the national flag carrier of Ireland?? "RyanAtlantic" is set on becoming a full service airline intended to rival airlines such as "Virgin Atlantic". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.43.181.52 (talk) 16:35, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Legacy Carrier section or article?

I am putting this comment here because I am not sure where else to make it. Please tell me if there is a particular page on Wikipedia for article suggestions. Increasingly I have heard the term "legacy carrier". For instance, it is in the Virgin American wikipedia entry. Since legacy carrier is a term similar to flag carrier and national airline, should it be included under this article? At the very least, there should be some wikipedia entry explaining this term, whether here or as a separate article. --Bruce Hall (talk) 13:11, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Uncyclopedia material sneaking in here?

Flag carrier being any airline that has a countries flag on it? This is an April Fool joke that has accidentally hung around right? [4] --86.164.126.9 (talk) 04:01, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Well said, 86.164. It is indeed a joke to suggest that flag carrier could ever mean the aircraft has a pretty flag painted on it! - Adrian Pingstone (talk) 15:29, 28 September 2008 (UTC)