Talk:Truman Doctrine

The Truman Doctrine was a political response to Soviet aggression in Europe, illustrated through the crisis over Iran, Turkey and Greece. As a result American foreign policy towards Russia shifted, as George F. Kennan phrased it, to that of containment of Communism.

I don't think the the first paragraph states what the Truman Doctrine is. It gives a quote from the speech, but frankly that quote - "free peoples who are resisting attempted subjugation by armed minorities or by outside pressures" - sounds like it could be from Bush's (George W.) Doctrine as well. Think we need more context straight off. What is odd is that the above paragraph (ie, in Talk:Truman Doctrine) better expresses the Doctrine without having to fish thru propogana-like quotes. I'd prefer to change the beginning of the article to something like that.

-- slava, march 24, 2005

I agree. I have made the edit. --Hench 02:41, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)

I'm niether a historian nor an economist so this may be completely out of line and the more knowledgable wikiens should feel free to slap me. With that disclaimer, there are several references which imply to communism is a form of government when it is actually an economic system. (R.I.P. Mr. Buck) I'm wondering if the "communism" being refered to is really some authoritarian rule via fascist dictators, etc. Does anyone have an informed historical perspective which might illuminate the details more clearly? Iggynelix 20:14, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

I'd tend to agree with the whole communism is an economic system rather than a form of governenment, but Wikipedia's own Communism article mentions, and I quote Communism is a term that can refer to one of several things: a social and economic system, an ideology which supports that system, or a political movement that wishes to implement that system. In the context of this article, the reference would be to said political movement. --Hench 06:40, May 28, 2005 (UTC)

Renamo Reference

I deleted this

The joint U.S-South African financing of the Renamo resistance movement in Mozambique can be seen as an example of Truman's legacy at work. Policymakers in Washington feared that a reasonably successful Communist state in the heartland of sub-Saharan Africa would cause neighbouring countries to adopt the socialist development model.

from the text, becuase the Renamo resistence movement was only founded in 1975, and as such is completely anachronistic and off-topic. If you wanted to discuss case studies, you would be better served mentioning US actions in support of Greece, Turkey, Rhee Syngman in South Korea, or of the French in Viet Nam that are more immediatly connected to the Truman Doctrine.--Francisx 07:57, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

The First Graphic

"Military spending in 2007, in USD. The Truman Doctrine outlined the foreign policy of the United States, in which right-wing, totalitarian governments are actively supported, and unfriendly or uncooperative governments are overthrown via direct invasions by the military forces or CIA operations." This accompanied a graph showing the military expenditures of various countries in 2007. I question the relevance of such a graph and would also like to suggest that the subsequent statement isn't a fair and accurate portrayal of the Truman Doctrine in a sentence. I deleted it. Teapot24 (talk) 19:43, 26 December 2008 (UTC)teapot24

Correction needed

Someone put the word "chicken" in the following sentence, and it should be rolled back to an earlier draft.

It was an early response to political aggression by the Soviet Union in Europe and the Middle East, illustrated through the Communist movements in Iraq, Turkey and Chicken.

NSC68

I added NSC68 as it is one of the most if not the most principle document of the Truman era. If anyone can elaborate more on my quick excerpt, please feel free to do so.

Operation Gladio

In the paragraph on the effect on nations in Western Europe I think Operation Gladio should be mentioned as it was a significant operation organized by the US and the UK over a long period of time to counter communist popularity.

Vandalism

I suppressed "ALBET IS GAY". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.214.103.69 (talk) 19:24, 24 April 2007 (UTC).

I think the following phrase is vandalism "The military aspect of losing Greece and Turkey was also a huge factor in granting the 1 million dollars." Greece got 300 million and Turkey 100 million so I don't see where that "1 million" is coming from —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.0.210.8 (talk) 01:12, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Images

If someone would like to add a picture there are some at trumanlibrary, but the copyright status is unknown so they cant be uploaded to commons: http://www.trumanlibrary.org/photographs/view.php?id=14684 http://www.trumanlibrary.org/photographs/view.php?id=14687 http://www.trumanlibrary.org/photographs/view.php?id=14697 Vints 06:42, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

People, listen to me... the U.s. was frightened by the threat of Communism spreading all over the world. That is all I have to say. Email me at kkredgirl@aol.com with further comments.

Metaphor Section

The semiotic analysis by Ivies is relatively insignificant as far as a line of inquiry into the Truman doctrine, so I am removing the metaphor section. If it returns, it should be brief and fully attributed to Ivies rather than stated as fact. AlexeiSeptimus 22:45, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Original Research

the Original research tag at the beginning of the article : the "was clearly at the heart of truman'sthoughts" is a qote from Chafe, William H., The Unfinished Journey: America Since World War II, Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1995. I think —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.54.37.17 (talk) 19:50, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Vietnam Connections

I don't have the following book in front of me, but I seem to recall Neil Sheehan in A Bright Shining Lie saying U.S. aid to the French in their campaign against the Viet Minh began basically as soon as the French reoccupied the country in late 1945/early 1946, not "shortly after the start of the Korean War" as the article currently states. This issue is worth looking into especially since the doctrine of containment was often cited as a reason for later U.S. involvement in Vietnam. Krazychris81 (talk) 22:45, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

POV check

In a quick read through of the changes made by User:Naur today, it seems that the editor might have an agenda that would conflict with WP:NPOV for this article. This is not a criticism of the editor, but a concern for the neutrality of the article. I do not have the time or inclination to read through in detail to analyze it, but it is a concern. At the very least, the additions are not neutrally written and should be adjusted. Statements like "the support at all costs of right-wing, authoritarian governments" and "the American global domination" and "the support, under the guise of democracy and freedom, of right-wing, totalitarian governments in third-world countries" seem to be red flags to me. Primary support for the additions seems to come from Noam Chomsky - a less than neutral commentator on American politics. -- Mufka ^{(u) (t) (c)} 15:12, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

I am confident that most of my edits are well-written and adequately sourced. I do not have an "agenda" - I read books and I write what they tell. Since this article had almost no sources before I edited it, and since it has now over fifty sources, I would say it is a much more encyclopedic article than before. If the above user has read from respectable authors with opposing viewpoints, and would like to include them, discussion is always welcome. I am curious how the user came to view Noam Chomsky as a biased author, since he is highly respected among intellectuals and historians - for example, being the most-cited living person. But anyhow, this is irrelevant, since it is not our job to decide whether certain authors are neutral or not. Naur (talk) 15:36, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

"the support, under the guise of "democracy and freedom"[2], of right-wing, totalitarian[3][4] governments in Third World countries to contain the spread of Communism and other forms of anti-colonial, anti-capitalist[5][6] ideologies which would harm the American Empire[7], via economical, political, military and covert means." - I'm no fan of US imperialism, but this really is shockingly one-sided and needs to at least be qualified, as I will do now. 82.11.251.12 (talk) 20:37, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Statements like "State terrorism is widely employed by the United States to achieve her goals" certainly asserts a certain POV. One can find a source to support any point of view, so the claim that it is well sourced does not stand up. I have replaced the povcheck tag. Please leave it there until other editors have reviewed the article to check for pov. I have a legitimate concern and I hope that you will allow this to run through a proper check process. Since I have pointed it out and User:Naur has been adding the edits, some third party should be doing the checking to avoid an edit war and any suggestion of bias. -- Mufka ^{(u) (t) (c)} 13:19, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

I have been providing legitimate and respectable sources to almost every single questionable claim in this article. When I do not, the perhaps controversial claim is often linked to an article which should explain it in details with many references. I do not wish to offend, but you seem overconfident of your own neutrality and judgment when you decide to call an article composed of over fifty sources "blatant POV", with nothing else to support your claim except for pure intuition. I hope the user would read the article fully and specify some areas which may be problematic, instead of simply putting up a NPOV tag because he felt it was not to his liking. Or, perhaps - no offense, again - the user should go and read a few more books. Naur (talk) 14:17, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

I just don't see how statements like "its ultimate target was to discourage liberation of economies around the world so as to prolong a colonial-style domination by the United States" and "State terrorism is widely employed by the United States to achieve her goals" can be considered neutral. Calling the US a terrorist nation, I believe, is blatant POV - even if it is backed up by some sources. It appears that the majority of your citations (not all) are for works of Noam Chomsky. He is entirely biased. He is a political activist, political dissident, anarchist, and libertarian socialist intellectual (from his article). Since your very first edit was to a discussion about socialism, I don't think I am unjustified in thinking that you may have a particular point of view. If you and I both have different views of what is neutral, then that is why a third party needs to review the article. -- Mufka ^{(u) (t) (c)} 15:29, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

That is true. I am under no illusion that I am bias-free - everyone is bound to have a certain point of view if they're interested in a subject enough to discuss about it. But the fact remains that I have included over fifty sources, and neither you nor any third-party has included a single source - or indeed, raised a single concrete objection and provided an alternative, except to say that a certain source is biased just because the author appears to have a certain ideology. Your whole reasoning is based on intuition and a lot of assumptions - assuming that Chomsky is biased, based on another Wikipedia article, despite that it appears it is the first time you've heard of him; assuming that I am biased because of a certain edit I made. Your research seems entirely composed of investigating the backgrounds of certain writers, and of me, instead of the content of the article. Naur (talk) 05:25, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

I was pretty shocked, myself, at the huge level of bias displayed in this article. It's full of loaded terms of the sort often used in communist propaganda. It's bad enough at this point that I would recommend the article for deletion, rather than keep what we have now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.1.196.76 (talk) 02:59, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

And, for the record, Mr. Naur, who has wreaked this havoc, today removed the NPOV tag, commenting "rm tag- no debate for half a month", this despite the eight entries of debate above. (I restored the tag ... for the moment at least.)

Naur, you obviously have a problem with U.S. foreign policy. You are not alone. There is a way to record that fact without rendering this article useless. The Truman Policy was the first formal declaration of the U.S. policy versus the Soviet Union and International Communism. It was essentially the formal beginning of the Cold War, which is a very important chapter in recent history. Your ranting obscures that point. Frappyjohn (talk) 04:07, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

What rant? What "obvious" problem do I have? Yet again users who simply do not like the article seem to wish to accuse me of faults rather than provide elaborate arguments. Again I insist that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia based on third-party sources, not the personal opinions of a few editors. I have cited over fifty credible sources, and none of you have provided a single material to be used in the article. I am perfectly open to the idea that my writing may be biased - but I will not accept the removal of my well-sourced statements simply because certain users do not like it. I am sure any admin or experienced user will agree with my viewpoint at the moment. No matter how much you disagree with the article, it is currently well-referenced, and one should try to provide opposing points of view (if there is), rather than simply accuse me of personal problems. Naur (talk) 13:23, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

No one is accusing you of having personal problems. I wrote: "You obviously have a problem with U.S. foreign policy." You wrote: "What 'obvious' problem do I have?" By "problems" I meant your apparent disagreement with the way U.S. foreign policy has been conducted. Do you deny that you disapprove of it?

You write: "I will not accept the removal of my well-sourced statements simply because certain users do not like it." In my most recent rewrite of the lead, I very carefully did not remove any of your statements but merely attributed them to critics of U.S. foreign policy. Do you deny that Mr. Chomsky is a critic of U.S. foreign policy?

Yet you proceeded to remove my edits, and without any explanation of your reason for doing so.

You also, once again, removed the NPOV tag when obviously a very vehement disagreement with your edits is being expressed on this page. I am replacing it once again. I hope that an admin will offer to mediate this dispute very soon.

Frappyjohn (talk) 20:49, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

I apologize for removing the NPOV tag - my intentions were to revert the edits you made to the content of the article, and I was not aware that I removed the tag as well. It should stay.

I do admit that I disagree with U.S. foreign policy. However, I try not to let my beliefs influence the credibility of my edits, and I believe I have done a reasonably well job. I also believe that users on Wikipedia, when in discussion with other users, should focus on edits instead of arriving at quick conclusions over the personal beliefs of other users. This is not helpful at all to the discussion, and hopefully we do not have to talk about this again.

I do not deny that Chomsky is a critic of U.S. foreign policy. I do, however, disagree with the generalizations of some of the claims made in the article as being the points of view of critics only. Some of these claims are, indeed, basic facts, for example - that the Truman Doctrine is "most notably practiced in Iran, Korea, Vietnam, and various countries of Latin America", or that "direct military invasions were conducted after a left-leaning or otherwise anti-imperialistic government was formed through elections or popular revolutions". There should be no dispute over these claims, as they are historical facts and not interpretations or points of views. Any scholar, even if they have differing points of views on U.S. foreign policy and its implications, would not disagree that these two statements are undoubtedly true. So it is a bit silly to say that "critics" say these are true. Moreover, we do not have any other sources in the article with opposing viewpoints, so at the present, these are not just the words of "critics", but of universal opinion among scholars. Until another user could find a reliable source that argues against the points of view in the article, it is a bit inappropriate to regard these as mere "critics". Naur (talk) 19:01, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Naur: Much of the problem I have with your edits is that you appear to be using an article on a specific (and now outdated) policy declaration to expound on a much more general subject. Your efforts should be directed to the article on the Foreign Policy of the United States.

I challenge your numerous citations of Chomsky in this regard. A Google search for "Chomsky 'Truman Doctrine'" produces mainly side references by Chomsky to the doctrine. A search on Chomsky's site, chomsky.info, for "Truman Doctrine" produces only eight documents that mention the doctrine, and none that mention it in the title. A search at http://books.google.com/books?id=FajmTh_BmEkC of Chomsky's text At War with Asia, which you cite twice, produces only a single mention of "Truman Doctrine" and that is in a footnote. Chomsky, like you, appears to be highly critical of U.S. foreign policy. But he doesn't say much about the Truman Doctrine. Please take your talents to Foreign Policy of the United States. :) Frappyjohn (talk) 06:45, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

I intend to participate in the editing of other articles once I am satisfied with this one. I couldn't say I am now, as not enough is made of the Truman Doctrine and its influences on the foreign policy of the United States. I do, however, defend my citations of Chomsky in this regard. As the Truman Doctrine is undoubtedly a milestone of the foreign policy of the United States, and for the Cold War, there is no reason that sources regarding such topics could not be cited in this article - just as sources regarding, say, the Arab-Israeli conflict, may be cited in articles about the foreign policy of the United States. These subjects are closely related and the sources are definitely relevant to the topic. Chomsky writes a lot on specific political topics, so it is not often that he mentions the Truman Doctrine, which belongs more to a textbook. But many statements and specifics in the article are subject matters of Chomsky, so citing him is only appropriate. If you disagree, I challenge you to propose a better way to write the article. Naur (talk) 08:44, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Note that a properly NPOV article (which is what we all should be aiming at) should describe all the major points of view where more than one exists. Naur seems to have done an excellent job of adding the leftwing point of view to the article. And that's fine. Kudos to him. The main problem with the article at the moment is that none of those editors who hold other points of view, such as the anti-communist one, have added well-sourced descriptions of them. The article should be fixed by adding descriptions of the missing points of view along with sources to demonstrate who holds them. Until someone steps up to the plate and does that, the "Neutrality" tag should be left on the article. -- Derek Ross | Talk 06:57, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Removed this phrase: ideologies which would save Third World countries from the exploitation of American capitalism which had Chomsky's Hegemony or Survival. This phrase referred to the idelogies the Truman doctrine would work to subvert. First of all, this is speculation that these idealogies would "save Third World countries." It also shows an anti-capitalism bias on the part of the writer. It violated NPOV, and citing Chomsky only makes this worse. I agree with your POV, as I am sure many others do. However, it is a POV and only that. It is not fact which should be written into a wikipedia entry.

Turkey, and Greece

Added para on Turkey, previously missing despite Turkey being original subject of Truman Doctrine! And added to Greece re history of the period in question ie the civil war. Note that in Greece & Turkey some military coups were against a rightist government, ie one formed by the more right of the two parties Hugo999 (talk) 02:22, 1 January 2009 (UTC)