Talk:Western culture

/Archive 1 /Archive 2

Archiving

Moved all but next section to second archive page, it was the only one I saw that was current (besides the last two which were edited by me). If you have something current there move it here. Lycurgus (talk) 13:05, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Western Culture is Collectivistic??

I have deleted the bit below that suggests that Western Culture is collectivistic.

Most of Western societies have traditionally been, and often keep being, to some degree, socially collective, giving a major importance to social majoritary traditions or tendencies (such as customs, protocols, beliefs or fashion), that often tend to be prescripted over minority or individual ones, especially when hardly divergent, which can at times cause intolerance, prejudices and social exclusion. In general, western cultures tend to emphasise consensus over any kind of minority or individual solution. However, liberal, romantic, socialist and democratic ideas, that have had an important, growing impact in late modern society, have caused an increasing degree of respect and tolerance toward individual differences (most noticeable on racial issue), liberties and opinions, as well as an important support or expectance of originality, that manifests in artistic criteria. Thus, such differences are usually understood as a matter of diversity, rather than as a source of threat or conflict. This sometimes even becomes respect for other cultures and interest for them to be studied and learn from, driving to new Scholastic currents, as well as subcultural and countercultural ones. Much of this respect for difference and individual liberties remain, however, still theoretical, in many ways, among mainstream society, when the individual factor encounters a strong opposition from social costums and consensus, and thus resists to be accepted or understood. This situation, anyways, has tended to change among most progressive sectors of society, as a consequence of the many social and counter-cultural movements that the last decades have come to see, what, to some extent, has influenced mainstream, who is more predisposed to live along with differences.

The reason why I have deleted this is because I learned in college that Western culture is individualistic and here is a link that gives evidence for that: http://www.westerncultureglobal.org/knowledge-individualism.html

--Knowledge-is-power 15:46, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you. It is this Individualism that has helped the Western societies develop at a rapid pace. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.108.179.229 (talk) 19:09, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

A little late, but I just realized that the above assertion that Western culture is collectivistic is based on the broader, ambiquous use of "Western" in a Greco-Roman context (West of Persia, not Western Europe.) Western Civilization from 400AD onward was a history based on the rejection of the Roman social system, which was indeed collectivistic, the opposite of egalitarian (and ultimately individualist) principles practiced more by the Celts, Hebrews, or Phoenicians ... all bitter enemies of the Romans. Jcchat66 (talk) 16:58, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

This concept is historical and therefore needs more historical context to understand it

1. I noticed that in this article feudalism + Christianity is taken as more strongly definitive of makes something western than the two more orthodox roots: Athens and Jerusalem, Greek philosophy + Biblical monotheism, both of which were special in the way they applied specialized thinking towards politics and law. I think the traditional definition is best, because it covers more of the things which people call western. Do you have to be feudal or feudal influenced to be Western? 2. I think there is a very helpful extension from the above which could be included in the article: the political philosopher Leo Strauss was fascinated with the Athen + Jerusalem theme and he pointed out that it implied the existence of a "Greater West" including all civilization which had developed from the interplay. Specifically, what he meant to include were the Jewish and Moslem philosophers of the Middle Ages, but of course by extension he is saying that the rest of the world is also becoming more westernized by such things as Marxism or Capitalism. And indeed the Middle Ages was something peculiar to the whole Greater West - which is why the curent article's emphasis on feudalism etc is not entirely wrong, just in the wrong order. Comments?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 17:52, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

A proposal draft

I would like to propose the following as the new introductory section. I do not see it as good enough yet, in the sense that the introduction should not be this long. Sections can be broken out...

Western culture or Western civilization are terms which are used to refer to cultures of European origin, in contrast to "Eastern" or "Oriental" cultures. It originated as a way of describing what was different about the Graeco-Roman cultures in contrast to the older civilizations of Western Asia.

These terms are used very broadly to refer to heritage of social norms, ethical values, traditional customs, religious beliefs, political systems, and specific artifacts and technologies. Specifically, the term most often implies...

• A Graeco-Roman influence, especially concerning rationalism in various spheres of life, including, in political thought, widespread rational arguments averse to monarchical tyranny, and more in favour of democracy and individualism.
• A Judeao-Christian influence in spiritual thinking, at least in references to the Post ClassicalWest.

The East–West contrast is sometimes criticized as relativistic and arbitrary. Indeed, by definition, the contrast between Western and non-Western things must change as the peoples being contrasted change throughout their history.

The East-West contrast is also criticized for being too poorly defined to be useful. With the advent of increasing globalism, it has recently become more difficult to determine which individuals fit into which category. In some contexts the term "western" is now avoided, where it was once commonplace, or it has been transformed or clarified to fit more precise uses.

However, though it is directly descendent from academic Orientalism and Occidentalism, and other now questioned traditions, the "East–West" distinction arguably remains a changing but useful means of identifying important cultural similarities and differences — both within an increasingly larger concept of local region, as well as with regard to increasingly familiar "alien" cultures.

...I believe the following should be broken off into other sections, if it is not already being covered. Indeed the article deserves historical sections, to show how the term has changed over time. I would also contend that it is wrong to say that the West-East contrast during the Cold War has nothing to do with what many people mean by "Western Culture". It is often said in Russia and outside Russia that Russian communism owed a lot to what the people were used to, what they supposedly needed, under the Tsar...

During the Cold War, the West–East contrast became synonymous with the competing governments of the United States and the Soviet Union and their allies, respectively, although the nature of that contrast is not in any way based on the distinction between Eastern and Western cultures. Nonetheless "westernization" was a persistent theme of the Russian Empire and through its influence and that of the Soviet Union and its Eastern European client states these regions have been incorporated into "the west" albeit as a periphery or marchland. Since it also includes virtually all of the western hemisphere not in Africa as well as the Anzac countries, it is the geographically most extensive culture on the planet. As the bearer of science and the accompanying revolutions of technology, thought, and values over the last 500 years it is the dominant human culture at this time of global cultural integration and thus has established itself as a basal element of human civilization with which it is sometimes chauvinistically confused.

The concept of Western culture is generally linked to the classical definition of Western world. In this definition, Western culture is the set of literary, scientific, artistic and philosophical principles which set it apart from other civilizations. It applies to countries whose history is strongly marked by Western European immigration or settlement, and is not restricted to Western Europe. Much of this set of traditions and knowledge is collected in the Western canon. Various uses of the concept of Western culture have included, rightly or wrongly, critiques of American culture, materialism, industrialism, capitalism, commercialism, hedonism, imperialism, communism, Nazism, fascism, racism or modernism.

Other tendencies that define modern Western societies are the existence of political pluralism, prominent subcultures or countercultures (such as New Age movements), increasing cultural syncretism resulting from globalization and human migration.

Comments please.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:58, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

In the ¶ above starting with "During the cold war .." I authored the text beginning with "Nonetheless .." to the end of that ¶ It's true that the start sentence doesn't quite match the scope of the sequel. The first sentence might be modified reflect the particular usage of 'east-west' ... Actually no, that's wrong. The entire paragraph is fine as is. It's placement in the overall page can of course change if someone wants to put effort into a improved structure of the page. Perhaps a much shorter lede with it going into a "semantics" § or whatever. 74.78.162.229 (talk) 02:05, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I think that many such comments can be better fitted if we put in some sections on the different historically relative ways the term is used. The problem is that even though the terminology has evolved over many centuries, ALL of those uses are still known and used when referring to particular periods. There is an Origins section, but it seems like a collection of notes so far. I think the main periods are as follows...

1. The East-West concept has its origins in the contrast between the Graeco-Roman world and Asia. Even within classical times however, the Greek speaking world was being seen as increasingly part of the Eastern world world which it had effectively ruled since Alexander.

2. In late Roman times there was an official split between the Eastern and Western empires - the East being substantially outside of Europe although ruled from Greece. Hence Byzantine Greeks like their Asian subjects in the lands which eventually took up Islam, contrasted themselves collectively with the Frankish and Catholic West, which was, not unlike in Classical times, seen as a less civilized, more barbarous area, run by smaller scale individualists rather than a great empire.

3. With the increasing importance of Islam in Asia in the Middle Ages, the Greek, Slavic and Orthodox sphere of influence starts to be seen as either Western or Eastern, depending upon the context.

4. In the 20th century a large part of the Orthodox world became the Soviet world. Once again old patterns were often seen to be prevailing: a more centralized and imperial East, contrasted to the capitalistic and decadent West.

5. In the aftermath of the cold war, it looked like the East-West distinction might disappear as the world became increasingly homogeneous, but signs are that East-West distinctions are making a comeback. This is firstly because the Russian government has taken the decision to emphasize their distinction from the West, represented by NATO and the EU, and the historical roots of this difference, as something to be encouraged. Secondly, September the 11th, Al Qaeda, and the War against Terror, led to new contrasts being made between the West, with its emphasis on freedom, and the Islamic East on the one hand; and between what some saw as Western imperialism versus traditional cultures on the other hand.

"The 'narrow' usage of 'western'"

When used in a narrow manner, Eastern Europe, Orthodox Christianity and the ancient Greek speaking world, are sometimes contrasted with what is western, even if they are also sometimes contrasted with what is more truly "eastern".

Someone up there^ sourced those who believe this definition is somewhat arbitrary(btw didnt see that in the article when I skimmed it--not saying that its not there...but if it isnt, it should be): "The East–West contrast is sometimes criticized as relativistic and arbitrary.[1][2][3] Indeed, by definition, the contrast between Western and non-Western things must change as the peoples being contrasted change throughout their history."

So... "the narrow usage of 'western' is somewhat arbitrary in a sense it is differentiates a nations culture based on religion at an arbitrary point in time is how I see it (Catholic vs. Orthodox schism. In an even more narrow definition, one might exclude some of the Catholic countries (Spain, Portugal, Italy, Croatia...) as being culturally 'eastern' as well.

Is this sentence supposed to infer that Greek culture is more Near Eastern than Western? Or more Eastern European because of their Orthodox faith? Why are the Greeks isolated as 'eastern' while other Orthodox nations not considered 'eastern' under this definition? Is it due to the Ottomans? If so, Serbia, Macedonia, Romania, and Bulgaria, etc should also be included...but they arent the 'Greek speaking world'. By reading this sentence, I get the notion that their culture is 'eastern' for more reasons than just their religion, because the contributor isolated the 'Greek speaking world.' Why is this? Is it due to cultural diffusion from the Ottomans? If this is the case, should/would Italy and Spain(Catholic nation, but possible Moorish cultural diffusion and/or borrowings) be considered 'eastern' too?

This sentence needs to be elaborated on and be supported with sources, else it should be srapped in my opinion-its giving confusing me. 66.82.9.80 (talk) 06:42, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

• Changed it bc what was there just amounted to including Greece, or the (vague and broad) "Greek speaking world" twice. Who exactly is included in the Greek speaking world anyway? Its vague. Many spoke Greek, it was like Latin during the Roman era. Greek because was the lingua franca during the hellenistic era and the language of educated people in the known world. Do we include the Griko speakers in Italy? They are in Italy now, a Catholic nation..also other areas of Italy that were once Greek are different culturally now. Same goes for the Greeks on the coast of Anatolia (those still living there after the population exchanges are mostly Muslim and obviously identify more with Turkish culture now)...for these reasons, its best to omit that part of the segment. 69.19.14.23 (talk) 02:08, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

I am wondering if this direction of editing will not make the article artificially simple. The article itself made the point that there is some messiness in the way people use the terms Eastern and Western. But if you want to reject this, does that mean that you think that people use the word western in a clear way? Do they really? Eastern Christians, and not just outsiders, really do sometimes contrast themselves with the West. They really do connect themselves to their Eastern heritage which includes Constantinople - a heritage they know they share with muslim culture for example. They really are sometimes in fact proud to be in this balanced position - descendants of Rome, but not of the Franks so to speak. This is not just a small point, but quite central to how Eastern Christians see themselves and the West. Russia has a Roman double headed eagle as a national symbol and claims to be the new Rome. The two heads represent the facing east and west of the old empire.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 10:49, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus for move. I think much more significant than number of hits one expression returns over the other in searches is the manner the expressions are being used when you look at the sources found. A Google Book search, for example, finds tons of books with "Western culture" in the titles, but the rub is that the topic of those books is not limited to Europe; they are about Western culture as that expression has long been used to mean far more than the words alone imply. By contrast, the books that have European culture in their title are limited for the most part to the culture of Europe.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 03:33, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

I suggest to move Western culture to European culture because what is described in this article is common for all European countries, not only Western. Assuming that classical antiquity for example belongs to Western culture is offensive to other Europeans who do not live in countries known as "Western". This looks very much like a Cold War propaganda.

This place (Westrn culture) however could exist if it covered truly Western values such as individualism, Protestantism, Coca-Cola, Holywood, bubble gum, rock and roll etc.--Dojarca (talk) 13:06, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose move. These are not the same things. Badagnani (talk) 05:15, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

  Yes. That's why I propose the move. This article confuses European culture with Western culture. For example, Belarus belongs to European culture, but does not belong to Western culture. Japan the opposite, belongs to Western culture, but does not belong to European culture. This article describes European culture, but confusingly calls it "Western culture". I also should note that there should be no place for propaganda in Wikipedia. --Dojarca (talk) 08:38, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose and recommend close per WP:SNOW. Western culture does not equal Western Europe, that's ridiculous. +Hexagon1 ^(t) 00:14, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

  Nobody says Western culture equals to Western Europe. For example, Japan and S.Korea belong to the Western World as well as Australia and so on. But this article depicts European culture, which is not shared by some Western countries such as Japan. On the other side, Balarus for example (and Russia and Moldova etc) do not belong to Western World, and Western culture, but they belong to European culture which is in fact described in this article. Claiming that only Western countries share European culture and Classical heritage, excludes countries such as Russia and Belarus and in fact is pure Cold War-like (or even Nazi-like) POV propagana.--Dojarca (talk) 10:02, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose The USA, Canada, and other non-European European ex-colonies are also Western, but not in Europe; Russia, Ukraine and Belarus, not to mention other eastern European countries, are definitely European while usually contrasted with "Western" (though sometimes included of course).Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 16:33, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

  Well USA and Canada are not European, but inherit European culture. You're right that Belarus, Russia and Ukraine are not usually considered "western" (in fact usually contrasted with it). So this article's topic excludes them. We have no article about common European culture other than this. Article Culture of Europe focuses mostly on modern varieties of cultures of European countries, but does not describe what is commonly perceived as European culture (classical antiquity, Christianity, classical philisophy etc). So the abovementioned countries are excluded as if they did not inherit common European values.--Dojarca (talk) 18:22, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose "Western culture" is the term most commonly used in the English-speaking world to refer to this subject. Wikipedia is not a mechanism for campaigning for changes in usage. Robert A.West (Talk) 16:45, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

  Wikipedia should reflect worldwide point of view, not local.--Dojarca (talk) 18:23, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

  There is no such thing as a single "worldwide point of view," so Wikipedia can hardly reflect it. Whatever name is chosen for any article will reflect some point of view. That is inherent in the nature of language and thought. Wikipedia's practice is to use the name that is most common in English and to point out alternative usages or objections in the text of the article. Robert A.West (Talk) 18:32, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

  Also consider these links [1][2][3][4][5] that use the term "European culture" or claim that some countries (in America, Australia, Africa "inherited European culture"). How can you prove your claim that "Western culture" is used more widely than "European culture"?--Dojarca (talk) 18:42, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

  Actually, since you want to change the status quo, the burden logically falls on you to make your case. A handful of links (or even a few hundred) are not enough to overrule long-established usage. It is also noteworthy that the typical course on the subject begins with Sumer and/or Egypt, neither of which are in Europe. Robert A.West (Talk) 19:09, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

  Well probably Americans prefere to use word "Western" rather than "European" because they are not Europeans. But Wikipedia should represent worldwide view. Aside this, my search in Google gives me 2 750 000 entries for "Western culture" and 3 190 000 for "European culture" which shows than even in English-speaking world the second term is more widely used.--Dojarca (talk) 18:05, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

  Strange, I get a million more GHits for "Western culture" than you do, but it really doesn't matter, since Google is not useful for quantities at that level anyway. It is also fallacious to think that the term "Western" excludes Eastern Europe in any way: the terminology is far older than the Cold War. Robert A.West (Talk) 18:32, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

let's review: article still messy

I propose that the structure of the article still needs consideration. In some detail...

The first section after the intro is called "Terminology" implying that it is about the definition, but why would it be more more about the definition than the rest of the article. I take the original intention, as shown by the section link to the Western World article, to be an attempt to speak separately about which specific peoples and places are western. But even then, can this be made into a section without being very redundant. Proposal: much of what is contained in this section is about the most recent phase of this very historically flexible west/east terminology, and could be moved to a section on that.

The second section is concerning the history of the west/east terminology. I think this is the core of the article. As I have explained before, I tend to think that this article is meaningless if we ignore all the historical changes in meaning, and the different flavours of meaning. I think the first two sections are fine: first classical, and then medieval, but then things get messy. Then finally it comes back to recent times, and the cold war. In that middle section I think we need some order. I think that this is precisely where we could put at least some of what is now in the terminology section.

Thirdly, we then have some random topics which seem to group together, which I suppose all come under the category of defining details of what the state of play is now in Western Culture...

• Influence of Western culture
• Music, art, story-telling and architecture
• Western Scientific and Technological Inventions and Discoveries

Should these be united then, under some such heading as "Aspects of Contemporary Western Culture"? And can they be improved once united by a theme like that? By the way, it seems to me that there should be more, for example especially politics?

Fourth, there is "Contemporary Western culture". The title implies that this section should either be the last part of the second section, or else a unifying comment for the third section. The title looks like it would fit for the third section very well in fact. However, the content is not necessarily suited to such a task right now. Actually, some of it would fit in as a political sub-section for what I describe as the third part. Perhaps this title and content just ended up at the end of the article together by accident, as happens all-too-often.

I feel fairly confident that most of the above is no-one's intention but just the result of edits over a long time. And that basically a bit of moving around might fix a lot of things. Comments please.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 12:29, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

I have tried a big re-structuring. Please note that for the most part I have left materials in there, but just re-ordered them. --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:04, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

There is another problem. Some things listed as western achievements are not western at all. The theremin is Russian and the first human in space was Cosmonaut Yuri Gagarin. These things need to be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Avro Bellow (talk • contribs) 01:53, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Russia, like Turkey, is one of those "maybe-Western" countries that make classifying things so difficult. --Carnildo (talk) 04:48, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Western culture is Christian, not Judeo-Christian

Judaism is an Eastern culture more similar to Islam, both of them semitic civilizations (Shalom/Salam) with a much different alphabet. Both of them have their center in the Mideast while Christianism established its center in the West. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.35.183.222 (talk) 02:22, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

First of all, Christianity is an outgrowth of Judaism, even to the point of retaining much of its theology and all of its scripture. Yes, they have grown separately for nearly two thousand years, but the roots are too deep to deny.

Second, "Western culture" begins long before the birth of Christ, or Abraham for that matter. The typical overview course on the subject begins in ancient Sumer, discusses Assyria and Egypt, spends a lot of time on Classical Greece, the conquests of Alexander and the subsequent Hellenization period before shifting focus to Rome, first as a republic, then as an Empire. The course has covered nearly two thousand years of history before Constantine the Great changes the official religion of the Empire. For the next thousand years, "Western culture" and "Christendom" are roughly the same, but it would be an error not to note how much Christianity was influenced by and absorbed classical philosophy and many pagan practices of the Germanic tribes. One need only look at the timing of Christmas and Easter, not to mention the name of Easter itself to see how the culture (as distinct from the theology) was affected. I could go on about how the Roman Empire itself became more orientalized, with the vestiges of republican restraint being replaced by an oriental despotism, but I refer you to Durant, Weber, inter alia. Robert A.West (Talk) 11:23, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Western culture is neither Christian nor Judeo-Christian. Atheism, communism also belong to Westrn culture.--Dojarca (talk) 11:51, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Of course. You put it so simply and went right to the heart of the matter. Robert A.West (Talk) 04:12, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

From the views of eastern world (Chinese, Vietnamese, Japanese, Koreans ...), Semitic culture (West Asia, Judaism, Christianity, Islam) is not an east one, although from Europe, it may be. Even from the views of Indians, Semitic culture is not of east, I think. Unlike Semitic one-god religious society, there is a tradition of religious freedom and religious inosculating in Eastern world and that has last for long. -Daohuo (talk) 14:18, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

In Tang Dynasty, after Buddhism was introduced from India into China, Buddhism had been integrated into Chinese religion. It's often called Three Religions Combine into One Religion (三教合一). Three Religions means Confucianism, Daoism and Buddhism. However, actually there were many other Chinese regional religions besides Daoism, and there still are, but these religions are today often classfied as part of Daoism. No-god is one idea of Confucianism. An earlier Confucian Ji Liang (in Spring and Autumn Period) said, People is the master (origin) of god (夫民，神之主也) (Gods are created by people. Different people creates different gods), and Shi Yin (in Spring and Autumn Period) also said：I heard that, if a state will flourish, it listens to people; if a state will perish, it listens to god (吾聞之：國將興，聽於民；將亡，聽於神). Although most Confucians think there are no any gods and no any supernatural forces, they do not oppose people worshipping gods. On contrary, Confucians support people worshipping their ancestors (the ghosts and gods which are their died ancestors). The resean is well stated by Zeng Zi: To be prudent in mourning, and to remember those who have passed away before, is to enhance the virtue of the people.(慎終追遠，民德歸厚矣). So for a typical Chinese, he or she worships ghosts and gods which are their died ancestors, and at the same time, he or she worships the gods of Doism, Buddhism and Confucian religion (such as Guan Di), and gods in other religions such as local religion or industrial religion (such as Lu Ban) -Daohuo (talk) 15:48, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Criticisms

Unlike many wikipedia articles, this article is overly positive aparently with little or no criticism allowed. There should be, at the very least, a section of internal links that direct the readers to articles that are reasonable critical. As we all know, Western culture has many faults that should have be represented in this locked article. 172.164.136.83 (talk) 22:58, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

I suppose someone has gone ahead and executed this suggestion now. Is there anyone else that has a major problem with this paragraph?

"In general, the various criticisms of Western Culture tend to come within the categories of decadence, extremism, and barbarism. Various uses of the concept of Western culture have included, rightly or wrongly, critiques of American culture, materialism, industrialism, capitalism, individualism, commercialism, hedonism, imperialism, communism, Nazism, fascism, racism, modernism, nihilism, nationalism, fundamentalism and post-modernism."

This is lumped on the end of an introduction with absolutely NO 'overly positive' nature to it whatsoever. These 'various criticisms' should not be in the introduction. Since there is nothing positive in this section, the way it reads now implies that the article is in agreement with this fundamentalist and narrow-minded 'criticism' of Western Culture. The phrase 'rightly or wrongly' not only sounds amateurish and unscholarly to me, but does little to mitigate the intention of this paragraph, which seems to be to inextricably link 'Western culture' with all these nasty -isms. Does the author of this paragraph really believe that 'Western culture' is solely responsible for, the epitome of, or exclusively related to barbarism, hedonism, racism and fundamentalism? Seems to me that in contemporary society, Western culture has moved significantly beyond the stage where rape victims can be stoned to death and young girls circumsized. Funny how there's no link to barbarism and fundamentalism in 'Western culture's supposed 'equivalent regarding the East'.

I'm going to go ahead and delete this paragraph for now. If anyone feels this is wrong, there's the full text I'm deleting here. However, I strongly suggest that many of these 'criticisms of Western culture' are absurd and biased. Some of them, such as individualism and consummerism are quite fair, and if someone would like to write a section further down the article relating to these negative aspects, I would think it would be a good idea. Just don't rant on in the introduction. Oh, and at the same time, feel free to flesh out the equivalent article regarding the East as well. I'll stop now before I write something I'll regret. Storleone (talk) 21:34, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Western civilization and culture

"Western culture" is not a term, it is a phrase. Western civilization is not the same thing as Western culture. 1. There is a real difference between Western values such as freedom and democracy, as opposed to the mere technique and know-how associated with culture. 2. The standard dictionary definitions of civilization and culture are not universally synonymous. 3. Certain schools of 20th century political debate, especially left-wing and marxist, deny the reality of civilization in the traditional sense of true democratic and humanitarian values: Those commentators prefer the term "culture." There exists a long and unbroken etymological and lexicographical tradition which supports the idea of Western civilization as oppossed to mere culture. Christopher Richard Wade Dettling —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.24.197.191 (talk) 11:52, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Breaking wheel

With regard to "Since when did torture become a Western only practice? I find it hard to believe someone would make such an absurd claim and seemingly so anti-Western."

Just to clarify here as well:

The breaking wheel picture was placed not to suggest that torture per se is Western, but the breaking wheel was most prevalent in the West/Europe and originated in Ancient Greece (like several other aspects of Western culture featured on this page). There are a number of other creative Western torture practices that could be featured here as well. The breaking wheel is uniquely Western unlike some other practices, which are said to have possibly originated outside of Europe, or to have gained widespread use outside of Europe.

As for the notion that there may be something anti-Western about this, there is any criterion stating that pictures or text included in the article cannot be "anti-Western." Besides, what is anti-Western or not can be easily contested. Take some of the pictures in this article right now (mostly added by you?):

• Newton? He advanced physics, allowing more destructive weapons to be developed.
• Alexander the Great? Brutal conqueror, known for his skill at directing other men to chop other men up with big knives and sharp objects in order to extract revenue from the defeated. How does he describe "Western culture" anyway?
• The Colosseum? A despicable center of violent entertainment using slaves.
• Charlemagne? Another brutal conqueror, who also attacked people (the Saxons) to force them into his own religion.
• The Crusades? Bloody wars motivated by religious hatred and greed.
• The "discovery" of the New World? This discovery led to the killing of entire peoples, destruction of their cultures, and the seizure of their land.
• The Industrial Revolution? The exploitation of the proletariat on unprecedented scales, along with great environmental pollution and the destruction of native markets in India and elsewhere.
• Western Empires? The ruthless subjugation of other peoples in order to exploit their wealth - on a world-wide scale.
• Atom bomb? Incredibly destructive.
• Hollywood? Corruption of the youth.
• Elvis Presley? Assigns a "hick" image to Western culture.
• Aircraft? A way to fly over walls in order to kill other people.
• Automobiles? Massive overconsumption of fossil fuels, spewing much pollution into the air. Also creates a lot of roadkill.
• Telecommunications? Allows children to cheat on tests.

Obviously some of these are only semi-serious, but I hope you can see my point that many things originating from or characteristic of Western culture can be seen in a negative light (even while having positive or admirable characteristics). Torturous execution, such as the breaking wheel, can even be seen in a positive light in that it gives the condemned the pain and suffering they deserve for their crimes.

Regardless, good or bad is aside from the point. The point is to describe Western culture/civilization and to highlight those things that make it unique, not to extol or condemn or censor. Chedorlaomer (talk) 03:30, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Having a picture of a breaking wheel as one of the lead images to the article is completely ridiculous. It states the breaking wheel is a central factor of Western civilisation and that Western civilisation is built upon torture. If you hadn't noticed already the images in this article are only of the most important factors in Western civilisation, and the breaking wheel is not one of them, let alone the most important of them as you would have had it depicted as in the introduction to the article. It belongs nowhere in this article because it is an image of something so immensely minor and irrelevent that if included in the article then you might as well add such images as one of the teletubbies and claim they're somehow central to Western civilization. I can't help but feel your edits are being purposefully non-constructive to the article and are driven by a desire to portray Western civilisation as barbaric and built upon torture or else why add a picture of torture as a lead image? Yes as you pointed out earlier many of the images in the article highlight negative aspects of Western Civilization, but every image is neutral and display neutrally. An image of a breaking wheel or other forms of torture in this article could never be considered neutral and wouldn't comply with WP:NPOV. Usergreatpower (talk) 09:38, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

There is a clear double standard here. There was nothing non-neutral about the presentation of the breaking wheel, and it can only "never be considered neutral" if you have something against painful capital punishment for crimes and read into the presence of the picture too much. That would be you not being neutral, not the picture violating any rule. Remember, we do not censor based on like or dislike, but it seems you want to remove the breaking wheel based upon your personal sentiment out of a concern for making Western civilization look good. This agenda is completely inappropriate for an encyclopedia article. As for the idea that only a "central factor" should be pictured, this again appears to be an entirely subjective ruling based upon what User:Usergreatpower thinks is central. Many of the items could be contested in this same line of thinking, but I have yet to see any justification for this claimed criterion.

As of this time you haven't provided any reason against the breaking wheel that is suitable by Wikipedia standards, but rather your own sentiments. I'm putting the breaking wheel back, but under Plato since the practice was invented in ancient Greece and there is a rough chronological outline to the placement of images (though Newton and da Vinci seem to violate this). By the way, I like the Teletubbies idea, as it would really highlight another unique part of Western culture, though it may be better to feature a more famous children's show (such as Sesame Street). Chedorlaomer (talk) 18:20, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

To claim that a breaking wheel is emblematic or representative of Western culture is, in my view, more than a little absurd. I do not dispute that it's an item used primarily in the West, but I don't think it's broadly representative or important enough to justify a place right at the top of the article. Why, in your view, is it so important to display this image above, say, the Mona Lisa or Shakespeare? Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 11:14, 21 November 2008 (UTC).

The goal was to show something unique to Western culture, not to make some terribly opinionated statement about something so subjective as "emblematic." So far arguments against the breaking wheel are (a) it makes the West look bad, and (b) it is not "representative." Neither of those were my goals (as they would be far too subjective) in placing the picture, but I assert again that many of the pictures Usergreatpower placed in the article based upon his own fancy could be challenged along those same grounds. Truly, there is an active double standard here. A cursory glance through the history shows that Usergreatpower has been deleting and adding images based entirely on his personal feeling about what is emblematic or important to the West.

Are we supposed to use the order of pictures to express our opinion about what matters in Western culture as well? We should adopt a consistent approach, perhaps chronological. I originally threw it in near the top without thinking so much about how people would read into this. Upon Usergreatpower's emotional objections, I decided to compromise by placing it with the Greek guy since the practice was invented in Ancient Greece. It might be better to put it in the medieval section instead since that particular picture dates from that period. Chedorlaomer (talk) 18:40, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

But why the breaking wheel? Why not the downtown of Enderlin, North Dakota? Or Roseanne Barr? Or a television, or a hotdog? I'll give it to you that this article is significantly overillustrated, but you haven't really explained why a breaking wheel should be displayed on the page, seeing as it's a very minor part of Western culture, at best. This isn't about just wanting to make the West look good either - because there are other 'negative' images here (like the Crusades one), that ought to remain, as they document important events in the evolution of Western culture. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 00:59, 22 November 2008 (UTC).

I suggest that you picture those other ones as well, unless we are going to make a serious attempt to reduce the pictures as proposed in the section below. Chedorlaomer (talk) 01:44, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

The only reasonable approach is for the images to correspond to the text of the article. The number of images has been excessive, so paring them down is a good idea. The images that are kept can be positive or negative, and can be widely emblematic of Western culture or not, as long as they match and reinforce the content of the article. For example, the Vitruvian Man and Plato represent the Renaissance and Classical influence, which are prominently at the head of the first bullet point in the intro. But Newton is out of place because his image doesn't go with anything in the nearby text. The breaking wheel could be appropriate if there's a section that prominently mentions torture. It doesn't go with the current intro, though, since there's nothing similar in the text. --Amble (talk) 08:40, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, that makes sense. I'll keep it in mind. Chedorlaomer (talk) 09:33, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

This would bring the use of the images in line with our Manual of Style -- each image should have a caption relating it to the article -- see WP:MOS:IMAGES and this link[6] on layout. dougweller (talk) 18:41, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Too many images

On my monitor, the images on the right side of the article form a solid column running the whole height of the article, and spill over past the end of the article for another screen and a half, while the images on the left and in the middle make the article look messy. I'd recommend dropping about half of them:

• Image:Breaking Wheel.jpg - Not a major component of Western culture.
• Image:Aleksander-d-store.jpg - Image seems out of place.
• Image:1099jerusalem.jpg - Image doesn't really show much.
• Image:Eertvelt, Santa Maria.jpg - Image isn't representative of what it claims to show.
• Image:Shibuya tokyo.jpg - It isn't obvious what this is supposed to be showing.
• Image:Constitution Pg1of4 AC.jpg - Same.
• Either Image:European flag outside the Commission.jpg or Image:UN General Assembly hall.jpg - They both show about the same thing.
• Image:First Folio.jpg - It's hard to come up with a picture to show a written work, and this doesn't do the job.
• Image:HollywoodSign.jpg - Doesn't really show any part of Western culture.
• Image:Gluehlampe 01 KMJ.png - Doesn't really fit.
• Either Image:Zeche Mittelfeld Ilmenau.jpg or Image:Susquehanna steam electric station.jpg - They both show similar things.
• Image:IPhone 12345 001.png - Doesn't really fit.
• Image:DNA orbit animated.gif - Doesn't fit the subject of the article.
• Image:Olympic flame at opening ceremony.jpg - It's not clear what this is supposed to show.
• Either Image:Airbus A380 blue sky.jpg or Image:Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren 2 cropped.jpg - They show similar things.

Additionally, a number of images aren't very good at showing what they're supposed to show:

• Image:Vatican City at Large.jpg
• Image:World 1910.jpg

--Carnildo (talk) 06:52, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

As is clear from the dispute above this section, a desire to make the West look good (or something approximate to that) has featured as an editing principle, so it is likely that the image selection is something of a trophy case of what certain users think is great about Western culture. Chedorlaomer (talk) 18:52, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I concur with all of the above suggestions, except for removing Image:First Folio.jpg. Shakespeare is an important part of Western literature, and the image nicely doubles as a picture of one of the more important written works produced in the West, and as a depiction of what Shakespeare is commonly believed to have looked like. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 01:01, 22 November 2008 (UTC).

Is Shakespeare universally popular in the Western world, or just in those parts that speak English? Is he popular outside of the Western world? Generally there is some problem working with this topic because it assumes that Western countries do indeed have a common culture in some significant way. Chedorlaomer (talk) 01:42, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

In short, yes. For some quick anecdotal evidence, zh:威廉·莎士比亚 is a featured article, and it's also featured on the Afrikaans, Bosnian, Spanish, French, Croatian, Hebrew, Polish, Swedish, and Thai Wikipedias. If he weren't important, I don't think that those non-English projects would have gone to such lengths to write about him. Also, Image:Hw-shakespeare.png might be a better Shakespeare image if we don't like the Folio one. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 02:30, 22 November 2008 (UTC).

So he is universally popular in the world, rather than just Western culture? I'm not sure if Wikipedia featured articles accurately measure this since heavy work on articles can result from the obsession of a minority (it seems that video game stuff is featured often, at least on English Wikipedia), or if any of these were translated from each other, but it is still an interesting observation. In any case I wouldn't oppose Shakespeare's image, assuming that it is not entirely fictionalized. Chedorlaomer (talk) 02:52, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Point taken. Unless there is any objection in the next day or so, I might start removing some of the images listed above from the article, in order to make it not so image-heavy. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 04:12, 22 November 2008 (UTC).

Please go ahead. dougweller (talk) 06:09, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Please do, it seems like a fair solution to the currently quite subjective lineup. We've yet to hear from Usergreatpower though, he might care. Chedorlaomer (talk) 07:04, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, go ahead and remove them. There are just too many.DonSiano (talk)

I've gone ahead and removed a whole bunch of the images listed above, and I think the article looks better for it. If there are any particular removals that anyone objects to, we can always see about re-adding. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 02:47, 23 November 2008 (UTC).

The very nice image "Huntington's map of major civilization" should have a better caption. Showing what civilization each color represents with a link to an appropriate article would be nice. Or, Perhaps a link to a brief article on Major Civilizations as depicted would be good.172.168.59.211 (talk) 21:33, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't agree many of Mr. Huntington's opinions. I don't think the difference between Vietnamese culture and Japanese culture is bigger than that between French culture and Italian culture. And the difference between Chinese culture and Japanese culture is even smaller than the difference between Vietnamese culture and Japanese culture. And basically due to the economic globalization, the whole world tends to share more and more similar characters. In the past 150 to 200 years, westerners have influenced the world a lot, from science, technology, to economy, politics.... -Daohuo (talk) 16:25, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Modern and ancient times

I reverted Wingedsubmariners edits because they made it look like Western countries in ancient times had "Natural law, human rights, constitutionalism, parliamentarism (or presidentialism) and formal liberal democracy" which of course they did not. I suspect Wingedsubmariner was referring to the various Greek democracies, but even though it is true that democracy as a concept is ancient, all the other elements mentioned in the sentence is not. I am not particually happy with the old version of the sentence though. Natural law, human rights and constitutionalism was already developed and functioning in some societies in the 18th century, and the move towards democratic rule began in Europe in 19th century (and of course in the US in the 18th century). --Saddhiyama (talk) 12:52, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

"Western" vs. "Orthodox"

it is ridiculous to exclude "Orthodox" culture, i.e. Greek culture and the Greek-derived Christian Slavic cultures from "Western culture". Greek culture has been the very template of "Western culture" (as opposed to "Asian despotism", at the time epitomized by the Persian Empire) since the Age of Pericles. I cannot make out whether the article is trying to separate the two. The article body is ambiguous, but the Huntington map seems to consider "Orthodox" as non-"Western". --dab (𒁳) 16:30, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Such matters are always going to be controversial with no absolute consensus ever reached. Someone like Toynbee, for example, might argue that "Hellenistic (roughly "Greco-Roman") civilization" gave way and, partly, rise to "Orthodoxy" and "Western cilivisation". Another might argue for this or that. Ultimately, the very concept of a "West" is controversial. A discussion of all possible definitions of "The West", and that such a generic title represents plenty of complexity and variation within, and "Western culture" as well as the creation of the various Others through the process of the creation of *a* West would be nice. The problem with such topics (and why there needs to be a treatment of all opinions expressed, as summarised in the relevant literature) is that they attract plenty of exceptionalists, who usually generalise about the "virtues of the West" and on wrong premises to boot, nationalists who might argue for their country belonging or not to the West and so on. 85.72.185.204 (talk) 22:24, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

There is plently of evidence proposed by acadamia to create theories about civilizations and their identities, and have been for some time. The Evolution of Civilizations by Carroll Quigley makes a strong and convincing argument for the differences between Western Civilization and Eastern (or Orthodox) Civilizations, which obviously had very different evolutionary experiences over the centuries. Absolute consenses needs never be reached, but there is a consensus, and plenty of research on the matter that has become the status quo. Perhaps, when someone has time, they can transfer the vasy amounts of data on this subject to Wikipedia.

Huntington

I think Huntington's view shouldn't be in this article, as it is completely controversial. It may be so that in the English speaking world, especially because of US influence, Latin America isn't considered part of the West, but the same is not true in the Spanish, French, or Portuguese speaking world, where Latin America is considered indeed as being part of the West. As such Huntington's view is completely "anglo-centric" which by definition would make it POV and therefore not adequate to be included on Wikipedia --193.136.74.103 (talk) 17:31, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

The picture is fine, it does not claim Latin America is not part of western culture anyway, it's up for reader's interpretation. I believe Latin America is unique enough to justify it's own category. For example North America is "western" mostly because indigenous populations have been almost completely eliminated and do not play any significant role in land's culture. With Latin America fortunately this is not the case and so the culture is much more a mix of local and western cultures.Enemyunknown (talk) 13:24, 2 March 2009 (UTC)