Talk:Gumball 3000

2007

Rapper Xzibit was stopped by the police in the Netherlands for speeding. His drivers license was confiscated but he was allowed to continue, having his copilot drive. Xzibit loses drivers license (in dutch), Xzibit and the police (picture). Does anyone want to put this in the article?

• It turns out that wasn't Xzibit's real license. Should that be added in? Or should the part about Xzibit losing his license be left out, or left as is? Alexcicio 19:34, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

---

In the 2007 section it is noted that the Dutch government is looking into ways to forbid streetrallies. It cites a news-article from nu.nl that says nothing about that. A better source would be Algemeen Dagblad (Dut) but since the Dutch law already forbids any race on the public road (Wegenverkeerswet Art. 10 (Dut)) I think one shouldn't really take this newsarticle seriously, although I generally consider the AD a reliable source. Bacchuss 08:51, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Cannonball

According to the entry Cannonball, the first Cannonball Run organized by Brock Yates in 1971 was won by Yates and Dan Gurney. This article (Gumball 3000) states that "Cannonball" Baker and Gurney won the 1971 race. Another source I have says that Baker died in 1960, 11 years before this race. Can someone do some research and reconcile these facts?

Doesn't this race involve driving over the speed limits on open roads, thus committing various traffic offenses? David.Monniaux 09:48, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The 2nd paragraph of "Controversy" doesn't sound like neutral point of view (31/08/06)

• Agreed. It needs a rewording at the very least --MercuryFree 18:29, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

links

For 2007 official sponsor ALK has a site with team blogs and team route tracking. Link is www.rallybird.eu. Useful to include? {Cdev mk 11:55, 28 April 2007 (UTC)}

Gumball-3000.com hosts a wide collection of Gumball 3000 information, photos and videos. It adds a lot of content to the information available in the article and on the official website. Useful to include? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.84.192.36 (talk) 17:36, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

style

several paragraphs end with an exclamation mark - unencyclopedic? (clem 19:01, 7 May 2005 (UTC))

laws/usefulness

This page seems to talk of nothing useful, and doesn't outline the rally's darker side at all. I don't know enough about the rally but I suggest someone adds some info on the legality etc. --Untruth 16:15, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

As far as the event goes I'm not aware of any legal issues, this is most definitely a rally so the list of winners in the article is actually misleading. Awards are given out for various things, but reaching the final check point in the fastest time is never one of them. In the UK it would actually be illegal to use public roads for a race. The drivers themselves are responsible for their own activties whilst on the rally, so anyone who does break local laws can expect to be dealt with by local law enforcement.

As to a "darker" side I'm afraid you'll need to be more specific. I think the article generally needs more work though. --pgk^(talk) 22:12, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps Untruth was talking about all the accidents and dangerous driving that endanger the other road users? It's all very well to say that the drivers are ultimatly responsible for what they do, but that ignores the fact that many people use the rally as an excuse to drive fast. I've seen videos myself, and it's obvious that there is a "darker" side. It's not like this is some peaceful rally, and a couple of people are giving it a bad name. Unlawful driving is almost something the rally prides itself on. I'm not saying it's good or bad, but it's obviously something that needs to be mentioned -- Soupisgoodfood 05:10, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

• Still, Gumball HQ has never encouraged to speed, or to endanger the life of others, even, some drivers have seen themselves banned, or suspended, because of poor driving skills. But if you really want to point out the fact that there are accidents, you should also point out that never, one has been killed during the rally. The worst accident to date is Torquenstein's, with the Viper. The co-pilot wasn't injured, but Torquenstein was hit at the head and broke his shoulder. As it has been said, driving fast and arriving first isn't the main goal of the rally, it's only about having fun and getting the chance to show what your car can do in the end, at a given place, given time (e.g. racetracks).

--CrashandDie 00:00, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

This is an illegal rally, and regular people who are driving home or wherever on the motorway can be easily exposed to an accident. If these idiots want to risk their lives, why don't they do it in a closed circuit? Is this really so hard to see? I always drive at least 10 MPH slower then the posted limit.

There's been a fatality this time. Does user "crash and die" (what's in a name) still think a Controversy section is inapproriate? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Wlievens (talk • contribs) 09:26, 4 May 2007 (UTC).

Do you know driving 10 miles under is just as unsafe as 10 miles over? LAEsquire 09:09, 11 July 2007 (UTC)LAEsquire

2006

I'm going to take some photos of the start today, 30 April 2006, in The Mall at 15:00. Anybody else going to be there? Edward 10:15, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Graceland

... is outside Memphis, Tennessee, not Nashville, Tennessee.

"onto Nashville, Tennessee for lunch in Elvis Presley's Mansion, Graceland" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.25.109.195 (talk • contribs) 16:52, 4 December 2006 (UTC).

TV SHOW

Something should be mentioned about the Gumball TV series that was produced for the 2006 rally, that featured competition between Ed Leigh and Alex Roy. Mosdefau2 12:29, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

MAJOR UPDATE

Article has undergone a broad copy edit for tense, usage, grammar, and punctuation which reduced NPOV. Current needs include a through wikification, improved/expanded introduction to better explain notability of the event, references/footnotes, and introduction of mainstream media coverage. While the article could be perceived as NPOV or somewhat of a promotion, that may be due to celebrity participation. This is a FUN article. ChicagoPimp 03:55, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Gumball 2007 London

I have some footage from the start of the 2007 Gumball. I got a great spot right at the start grid and filmed every car starting. The footage can be seen at [1]. I also have about 80 high quality photos. I am making a gallery and will post the info here soon. Also, there are some faults on the Wikipedia page regarding the schedule for 2007 - the Gumballers are not visiting Venice to my knowledge. I got my information from the official programme given out on the day. Ogdini 07:33, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Rally, Race

I think its better to call it tour instead of rally. Rally is a competitive sport. Gumball is a road trip and it's not competitive even though some of the drives are obsessed with speed! DimTsi 00:42, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

• That's true, but it's referred to as a Rally by all the competitors, and I think even Max (though I'm not entirely sure) refers to it as that. It's true that it's more of a tour, but it's more commonly referred to as a rally. Alexcicio 03:17, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

• I was reading here: [[2]] where Max describes it as "a cultural international tour" and I thought: "hmmm, that's the word I was looking for!". I think it's called a rally because it was inspired by rallies but that doesn't nessesarely mean that it is one, right? --- DimTsi 12:29, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

• Ooh, all right, I stand corrected! Alexcicio 22:41, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

It is still called a rally by its organizers, and it certainly is regarded a race by many/most participants. You can call it "road trip" all you want in a misled effort to justify or cover up this criminal activity, but at the end of the day "Gumball" is just that: an illegal road race. I honestly can't believe some peoples' admiration for this! Olav L 11:01, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

• Olav L... I've already explained why it is not a rally and why I think it's a road trip. It's not that I admire anything about it! And I'm certainly NOT trying to justify nor cover up anything! Why would anyone here want to do a thing like that!?! I made this edit (days before the accident happen) calling it a tour because technically speaking it's not a rally! BTW I agree that it's a stupid event. Might be fun, but stupid... and dangerous! - DimTsi 19:18, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Look, "stupid" does not even begin to describe this. You are still way too friendly. I think "criminal" is more to the point. And it is still a race, whatever else you may have read or heard (the official statements of the organizer should not be taken as objective truth, they have something to hide obviously). Perhaps I was a bit too harsh but I do want you to understand this. European public motorways are *not* the private playground of rich, spoilt and bored people with ridiculously fast cars. Please, I lost two family members in an auto accident - not because of this "Gumball" race but the guilty driver certainly fit the profile. It's immoral, they think they are above the law. At the very least, these people's driver's licenses should be confiscated for life. If people are hurt (or even killed...) because of their actions, they should be in prison. Olav L 20:48, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Gumball 3000 fatality

I added a paragraph about the hit-and-run performed by two Gumball drivers in Macedonia, which left one person dead, and the other fighting for her life. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.205.1.219 (talk) 17:47, 3 May 2007 (UTC).

• I didn't think it was a hit-and-run. My source said both drivers reported to crash immediately. :\ Alexcicio 22:41, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

The fatal accident was initially reported by some elements of the media as a hit-and-run and talked of the Techart Porsche driver and co-pilot fleeing to the border. A more accurate account has now come to light. The drivers stopped, called an ambulance and waited with the injured drivers until the ambulance had arrived. They then proceeded to the nearby border with Albania in another car where they reported the incident to the police. They were only then arrested later when it was confirmed that the driver had died.

"It is believed the two men waited at the scene until ambulance crews arrived to help the driver of the second car, before rejoining the race towards the Albanian border.

It is thought the men reported the accident to police when they arrived at the border, and were asked to give statements.

But it is believed that as they returned to the border to continue their trip they were told the other person involved had died and were taken back to a nearby police station, where Mr Morley was held." Source: ITN - 04.05.2007 11:11

• Not so sure about this bit: 'a convoy of four Gumball 3000 vehicles was involved in a traffic accident', I haven't seen any news reports stating that it was several Gumball vehicles involved, just the one Porsche.

Bias?

This article is seriously biased. There's hardly anything about it on the controversy and the legality of this monstrosity. Wouter Lievens 09:24, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. This is a terrible article to the point that it reeks of uncritical admiration. Olav L 10:51, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps a criticism section should be added. But I should point out that there are few concrete facts about the tragic accident. It is on the papers today, but stories are conflicting. I should point out that calling the Gumball 3000 a monstrosity is seriously biased, there is plenty of criticism that can be made without resorting to name calling. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.45.180.197 (talk) 12:05, 4 May 2007 (UTC).

That's why it is called a monstrosity on the talk page, not in the article. Olav L 20:36, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

It IS a monstrosity. There was a TV documentary in the UK about it a couple of years ago, where the drivers were quite open about flouting speed laws and driving as fast as their cars would allow between points on the rally. A rally that encourages people to drive like idiots on public roads is inexcusable. Kill yourselves at high speed on a race track but don't endanger the public. 86.134.13.120 16:37, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

As a start, I changed the introduction of the article to make more clear that this race is controversial, and why. --Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 18:22, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Not surprisingly, anonymous editors do not like this in the article [3]. --Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 18:41, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I do like your changes. Perhaps more could be done but I'm not even touching this. Thanks for that first paragraph. Olav L 20:36, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. And yes, much more has to be done, I agree, but it takes a lot of time to find sources for much of the article i am afraid. --Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 00:38, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not anonymous, and I removed that (see below). --pgk 18:26, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

The main thing to remember is wikipedia is trying to remain a neutral point of view and verifiability, not truth is required. If there are multiple reliable sources which give coverage to problems with the rally then they can be used every bit as much as the positive ones. --pgk 18:26, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

One of them tried to run once he got out on bail. What a loser

Perhaps this compilation of in car footage could be used to back up claims of reckless driving in gumball http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UNExJi5xIs

You'd need to be careful of neutral point of view and no original research, the article should be balanced to give proportionate weight to the points of view from reliable sources. Watching a video compiled to show a certain extreme and then concluding (and writing about) that as generally representative would be original research and would be watching a video of hour upon hour of safe driving by some rally entrants and concluding therefore that everyone drives like my mother. --pgk 18:18, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

GumballMod 09:34, 13 June 2007 (UTC)GumballModGumballMod 09:34, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I think the last paragraph on Mr Morley is a little brief in comparison to the rest of the information on the trial.

Nicholas Morley was released from custody on £17,000 bail, but was later re-arrested in Skopje while attempting to leave the country using a private jet.(THIS IS ONLY SPECULATION, ITS NOT FACT)[22] The subsequent court hearing found him culpable in the deaths, passing a suspended sentence. [23]. Post the verdict Morley's family released a statement [24] detailing there own experts findings which contradict findings of the prosecutions expert. The statement also claims that the defence were denied the opportunity to present their expert findings, which could contravene article 6 of the European convention on human rights, the right to a fair trial, an appeal maybe made.

Can't we mention some of the facts stated after the trial by, the fact that the same expert that analysed the Diana crash scene analysed the scene of this accident and claimed that Mr Morley was driving at only 47mph. Can't we also mention that the family of the victims did not want to press charges. Also the leaving on a jet plane is not factual, it should be mentioned that this is speculation. http://jalopnik.com/cars/near-to-the-east,-in-a-part-of-ancient-yugoslavia/morley-family-releases-statement-post+gumball-verdict-267750.php I think it would be better to take text from this article and place it into the paragraph as a quote, there are comments made at the end of the referenced article that are very distastful and bias.

Beware original research

I removed/changed the sentence "the controversial rally is considered by many a race on public roads as the drivers often violate speed limits during the rally.". The cites don't say many consider this to be street race, and so also don't say a reason why many would consider it. This is at best a synthesis of the sources inferring stuff and devising reasons, i.e. it is original research. There maybe reliable sources which do state this, but those given don't. --pgk 17:54, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I reinserted the statement, supported by 5 refs explicitely stating the gumball is by some considered either a "streetrace", and "illegal race" or a "race on public roads". If you do not agree with this, please do not just remove the statement, but explain why you would consider these refs to be either wrong, unreliable or why anything of this is OR. The refs are:

• "Gumball Race stilgelegd na dodelijk ongeval" (in Dutch). De Tijd. 04/05/2007. Retrieved 2007-05-12. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• "Gumball straatrace met Tarantino dit weekend door ons land" (in Dutch). De Standaard. 14 mei 2005. Retrieved 2007-05-12. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• "Gumball Rally's petrolheads come to the end of the road". The Independent. 05 May 2007. Retrieved 2007-05-12. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• "Police catch Gumball racers red-handed". Flandersnews. 30/04/07. Retrieved 2007-05-12. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• "Gumball Rally pulled over". Times Online. May 2, 2007. Retrieved 2007-05-12.

--Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 13:39, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Good references, I've tidied it a bit. The problem here is that none of the sources say "many believe it is a street race", some refer to it as a race and some say they believe some participants are treating it as a race. To take that and create a statement that many believe it is a race, is reaching a personal conclusion i.e. it is original research. The other issue is the use of the term "deny", WP:NPOV suggests wording used can in itself imply particular meaning, to me at least implies they are beseiged by it and issue denials, the source doesn't say that either. I've tidied this also.

Hopefully the rewording of the "deny" part is acceptable, the other part I'm not that happy with my rewording since it's a bit wishy-washy, I'll try and think of a better wording later if no one else has come up with anything. --pgk 13:56, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Taking a further look at just the last few sources there, they very definitely don't say "many believe.." the third one quotes someone as saying "IF participants are treating it as a race", not that they are. And the final one suggests the German authorities don't believe it to be a race, but one policeman did based on misinterpretation. That is a long way from "many believing" --pgk 14:02, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

My wording this time was "is considered by some", not "many believe". But, your rewrite is perfectly fine with me. --Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 16:41, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I slightly adjust the sentence, to avoid the use of words like "many" or "some" at all. --Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 19:16, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Certainly better than mine, I'm not totally convinced about the weight we should give it, but I have nothing better at the moment so will leave alone. --pgk 11:37, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Unreferenced

I've added the unreferenced tag to the page since although there is lots of references to this years event and the incident with Morley, the previous years seem mostly unreferenced as do the "winners" sections, not to mention reading that a fan site in places rather than an encyclopedia article. We might need to prune this back. --pgk 08:33, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

A misprint I believe

It was in the 2003 Gumball I believe. That Team Polizei Alexander Roy drove his Bentley Continental GT known as the "Interception" I believe. It wasn't the BMW M3. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.157.116.36 (talk) 17:49, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

2007 Nick Morley crash with 2 dead in Macedonia

Nick Morley was driving way too fast, killed the two elderly people and then bribed the family (and most likely the court) into a settlement. He tried to flee Macedonia after the accident, but he was caught and arrested when trying to cross the border. He was found guilty and convicted. He did not appeal, as it says at the end of the "2007" section, because he would have gotten worse off.

The court adjudicator estimated the speed of Morley's car to be 161km/h (100mph), and the limit on that section of the road is 60km/h (37.5mph). I have referenced a source for this. The road in that section is very flat and wide 7m (25ft), so YES, you CAN do 200km/h, EXCEPT, there is a gas station, entrance into a town, and exit to a village in those 50 metres (60 yards) where the accident happened. So yes, by all means the guy killed the poor people. Face it. Don't delete my edits because they contribute to the NPOV and they are referenced.Crnorizec (talk) 16:13, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

I've removed this again. This needs to be considered in the context of WP:BLP, WP:RS and WP:NPOV. The quote of the speed is from a blog, which is not a reliable source. This potentially impacts a living person so WP:BLP demands a high standard of sourcing. The rest of your comment above is also not backed by any of the sources, you may indeed know that 200km/h is possible, but we don't care what you know to be true just what is available from reliable sources.

I've also revered the change to use the word "fled", this also is not backed by the sources, in terms of WP:NPOV it is clearly trying to imply something not indicated by the sources, so fails to be WP:NPOV --82.7.39.174 (talk) 17:16, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

The 161 km/h speed as being the prosecutions allegation is noted by the Morley family statement already referenced, so I've reintroduced that as it specifies. i.e. An allegation of the prosecution. --82.7.39.174 (talk) 17:44, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

I've used jalopnik.com as reference to the fleeing, if you prefer that one. He tried to flee twice, btw, the second time after he was released on bail and due to appear in court. There are many sources to document both the court adjudicator's claim and the fleeing from the crash site. WP:BLP does not imply that contributors should enhance a biography of a convicted murderer. Sorry. Crnorizec (talk) 18:22, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

I've moved this to the bottom again. Look at any talk page and you'll see that the posts go chronologically to bottom. Look at every other post on this page and that is how it works. Indeed click the new section tab at the top of any talk page, it will add a new section at the bottom.

Nope the word "fled" or "flee" is still a loaded word which fails WP:NPOV, it has broader implications. Even the source you've referenced uses words like "Allegedly", this could be the source using weasel words to avoid standing behind the statement, or it could be us trying to increase the strength of the statement, from alleged to a fact.

WP:BLP does not imply that contributors should enhance a biography of a convicted murderer. Sorry. WP:BLP demands strong sourcing for items related to living people, that is all that is being demanded and if you believe that enhances anything, that's your problem, it's non-negotiable. Your continued use of emotive terms, declaring the person to be a murderer, bribing family, bribing courts etc. (In the UK manslaughter type charges as this is, would be quite distinct from murder. Murder attracts a mandatory life sentence, this wasn't a murder conviction.) suggests you are rather more passionate about this than perhaps writing from a neutral point of view should be --82.7.39.174 (talk) 18:25, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

You are being emotional here. Look at the referenced text on the trial:

"Court's expert reiterated that Morley was speeding his Porsche with 161,1 km/h and crashed with 158 km/h into the Chepunjoski's Golf that had already entered the left lane of the Struga-Qafasan local road with 70 percent of its length."

There is nothing "alleged" here. The adjudicator said so in court. What has been referenced as "suspicion" is a commentary which says "I do not believe that ....

Also this one on the fleeing:

"Police sources say two British citizens - Nicholas Morley and Matthew Convell - were aboard a Porsche. Immediately after the collision, the two tried to escape into Albania with a BMW, but the Police stopped them at Kafasan border crossing after receiving a tip from a witness of the accident."

There is nothing "alleged" here either.

Also, Manslaughter/murder2/murder1/ are categories of murder, it's not negotiable either. I added the quote from the Ministry of Interior of Macedonia, about the second fleeing for clarity. This is another fact. Please stick to the NPOV and do not delete referenced edits.

I have also started a new article about the accident, where all facts that you are disputing have been sourced from The Times, Guardian, Telegraph, Sky News etc. I hope these work for your WP:BLP.Crnorizec (talk) 21:27, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Nothing emotional here I am demanding that this is properly sourced per WP:BLP. For the 161 km/h I initially removed and then readded based on the only source at the time, the Morely family statement which uses the alleged word in the legal context, that is fine. The alleged I was refering to is your insistance on the use of the word "fled", which again per WP:NPOV needs use with care since it implies certain things. The source you reference for it says and still says "allegedly got out of their crashed car and ran off", the allegedly in this case is in the non-legal sense. i.e. we can't prove that but someone told me it. Manslguhter is not murder, is very definitely not murder, I have a legal background and am fully aware of the difference. --82.7.39.174 (talk) 06:13, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Revert

I made this revert because it introduced a large amount of unreferenced information and broke several references in the process. Please feel free to re-add this material somewhere when it has been verified. - Mgm|^(talk) 12:04, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

I've removed what looks like a similar amount. Much is unencyclopedic in tone, not backed by references and quite frankly reads like advertiging bumph. I started adding {{fact}} tags but it soon became apparent they'd litter most of the lede. Also remember what the lede actually is for. --81.104.39.44 (talk) 21:08, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

To all editors of this article. Please study Wikipedia:References because you make a mess of the references! Debresser (talk) 12:59, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

I reverted your edits. Please make them inside the existing text, without ruining the hard work of other editors. Debresser (talk) 13:02, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

No you reverted someone else's edits, mine in no way affect your referencing. There is a severe problem with the version you restored and policy such as WP:NPOV and WP:NOR. Try reading what you restored, it's makes most of the lede little more than a puff piece for the rally, not an encyclopedia article.--81.104.39.44 (talk) 18:51, 24 March 2009 (UTC)