Talk:Peter Green (musician)

Copyright violation?

The sentance "Greenbaum (who was calling himself Peter Green by age fifteen) played bass in several amateur bands before being invited by keyboardist Peter Bardens to play lead in his band, Peter B's Looners" which was inserted on 17:45, 17 January 2006 appers to be lifted from http://www.fleetwoodmac.net/penguin/peter.htm and it's not at all evident that 67.69.42.130 had permision to do so. I'm not in a position to rewrite it so I'm flagging it up.

POV tag

I inserted the POV tag since I believe that the whole paragraph

The great bluesman B.B. King once referred to Peter Green as "the only guitarist who ever made me sweat", and with good reason. His blues style is not as histrionic as that of other noted British blues guitarists of that time, like Jimmy Page, Eric Clapton and Jeff Beck, but is more profound, much nearer to what is commonly referred to among blues aficionados as "deep blues". If one listens to John Mayall's Bluesbreakers with Eric Clapton and A Hard Road back to back, Clapton's playing is spectacular, white hot, and Green's, on the latter, is beautiful, understated, darkly bluesy. Peter Green got deeper into the spirit of the blues than any of his contemporaries, thus he has been called the "best white blues guitar player".

is very biased. I would welcome any suggestions on how to rewrite it. --Johnnyw 20:44, 2005 Jun 24 (UTC)

Joe Green's Connection

I don't see a major problem with leaving that link on there, since Peter Green does occasionally play with that band. It's not just a spam link, and no, I have no connection with it at all. Bretonbanquet 17:26, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

weird box thang

I deleted some sort of box thing saying the following:

of the World" and "Albatross". He wrote the song "Black Magic Woman" that was eventually picked up by Santana.

Seemed a bit weird and I didn't know what to make out of it. anyone any idea?NJlo 10:10, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

That was left behind when someone came along and deleted great chunks of the article! Why he left that small part behind, I've no idea - maybe he'd like to come on and tell us. I've reverted the article to how it was before he butchered it. Bretonbanquet 18:17, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

English?

Is Green English? I see no verification of that, yet I see "English" everywhere plus now a St George's flag as well. Without verification of Green's Englishness, we should class him as British, as per passport. He definitely has non-English ancestry so we have to be sure of ethnicity or leave it out. Bretonbanquet 17:58, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Clarification?? Doesn't being born in London, England = English? Is there a "# of generations requirement" before claiming English purity? I see the English vs British edit wars all over Wikipedia and have been curious as to where they stem from. To Canadians: born in England = both English and British. Born in Scotland = both Scottish and British. Born in Wales = both Welsh and British etc. I know that if 2 people born and raised in Italy... get married... move to Canada... and then have a baby here... the baby is "Canadian". Could you briefly elaborate on the heritage issue and explain why being born in England doesn't = "English". Anger22 (Talk 2 22) 18:17, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

It is an incredibly complicated thing. Because there is no English/Scottish/Welsh passport, you can basically claim to be whatever you want. Being born in one of those places does not make you part of that ethnic group. You can be born in England of Welsh parents and this clearly does not make you English. It just makes you born in England. It's exactly the same as being born abroad. If I'd been born in Egypt (Mike Beuttler) just because my mother happened to be there at the time, it doesn't make me an Arab. The world is full of people born in countries they are not a national of, another example being Cliff Richard. It's the same within the UK, or at least, it should logically be the same.

Also to use your example, that Canadian/Italian baby could easily claim to be either, and have two passports etc. Italian ethnicity would not be renounced simply because of a birthplace.

Claiming that someone is English when they might be a passionate Scot (who just happened to be born in England) is incredibly offensive, and it is absolutely not our place to assume ethnicity based on birthplace. Plenty of others, in fact I suspect most people in the UK, will count themselves as half of one and half of another, or various bits of English/Scottish/Welsh/Irish etc. Without a verification of a person's ethnicity, we should leave it as British.

I've met Peter Green twice and have known various members of his family. There are various elements of non-English there so an assumption that he's just English is crass. He might be English, certainly, but how about some verification? Bretonbanquet 18:33, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I see where you are coming from. As I mentioned, I just see the English/British edit wars which take place all over Wikipedia and, since it appears to be such a passionate debate, I simply avoid at all costs since I do not know all the background info. I am a 4th generation Canadian and, even with such close ties to my "English" ancestry, for me it's easy...I am Canadian. Apart from all that, Peter Green has always been one of my favourite guitarists and I hae been meaning to cite/expand on some of the more "guitar tech" aspects of his article. So far all I have added is a brief ref to the famous Les Paul with the reversed neck pickup. More to come when time permits. Cheers and take care. Anger22 (Talk 2 22) 18:54, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments, and it would be great to see anything you can add to the guitar tech side of the article, where I think it's definitely a bit lacking. I also try to steer clear of the edit warring over the English / British thing - I haven't reverted this article and I usually leave them unless I am convinced of a person's ethnicity. I left the Jeremy Spencer article alone because I think he is probably English - I might ask him when I get the chance. Even though I feel quite strongly about it (I was technically born in what is currently England, but ethnicially I am only one-eighth English), I feel that life is too short to have rows with people over it, and they do get a bit heated at times...

In this particular case though, I know that none of Peter's grandparents were ethnically English, hence there has to be question marks over his parents' and his own ethnicity. If we can find an interview or something where he mentions it, then great - but Wikipedia does demand verification. Nationality (i.e. British) is easy, but ethnicity is sometimes impossible to deal with. Bretonbanquet 19:08, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I have reverted the edits since no-one else has entered the discussion. Wikipedia is concerned with facts, not opinions or assumptions. The fact of Green's nationality is British, and no other facts are forthcoming, hence that's what should stand until someone can prove otherwise. Bretonbanquet 13:32, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I vote for "British". Firstly, I don't think that English is officially recognised as a nationality, so describing oneself as English is OK (because it presumably means something to the person concerned in describing their affiliation to a particular country). Hoewver, describing someone else as English might be regarded by them as meaningless, complimentary, insulting or nonsensical, depending on their own views. Secondly, being born in a country does not necessarily confer that nationality on the person: indeed, I'm surprised that even Canada automatically confers its nationality on everyone born there. In the case of many countries, being born there confers a right to gain nationality if you apply for it, but it is unusual to enforce nationality on everyone who is born in a place. Tony Blair was born in Scotland but is never described as a Scot; Peter O'Toole was born in England but is correctly regarded as Irish; Paddy Ashdown was born in India but is never described as Indian; Keanu Reeves was born in the Lebanon but is not Lebanese..... Bluewave 13:44, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

To the person who persists in reverting this article, along with Bob Weston and Jeremy Spencer - if you refuse to discuss the situation and make your point in the manner as set out by Wikipedia, then you will be reported for vandalism. Your edits will always be reverted until you discuss things sensibly. Bretonbanquet 19:33, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

The fact of the matter is, England is a state (although that term isn't used, it is referred to as a country). It is not an independent nation. It used to be. The United Kingdom is a country in the same sense that the United States is. England is a state in the same sense that California (or any other) is.

England is technically "a homecountry", I thought, not a state. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zapspace (talk • contribs) 16:28, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Picture Choice

For an article that begins by referring so strongly to his unique tone and the Les Paul that allowed him to get that tone, we have picture of him playing... a Fender. Is there nothing better available - i.e., Green playing the Les Paul? (or is there at least a picture of this famous guitar?)

Albatross was played with a strat, probably his most famous piece. I do agree that his guitar is iconic though and deserves a place in this article.--86.20.223.168 21:29, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I believe we should find a picture from '68/'69/'70 with PG playing the sunburst LP. I've always been unclear on what can and cannot be used here for photographs. Vytal 04:54, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Repeated vandalism

The repeated vandalism of this page by person or persons unknown is beginning to get irritating. The issue of Green's nationality has been discussed at length above but whoever keeps on changing the page seems unwilling to explain their rationale. Can anything be done to prevent them continuing? Bluewave 16:45, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

They can be reported as vandals, if someone has the energy, but there are enough of us reverting this rubbish, both here and at John McVie, Jeremy Spencer etc etc that it's not a great hardship. Their total failure to discuss anything at all means it's a clear-cut case of vandalism. Bretonbanquet 22:39, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Nationality

This is another invitation to the anonymous editor who keeps deleting the reference to Green's nationality from the intro paragraph, to discuss why he / she thinks that this is irrelevant to a biography article. If this editor believes that Green is not British, please discuss it here rather than making frequent revert edits, which is considered vandalism. Bretonbanquet 17:46, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

You talk like you have a great consensus regarding this, when you have had about 2 people reply. You have done this several times now. You have no consensus. You have an issue with him being described as English - very few people do. Recently, I left the British description and simply added England to the locations. You repeatedly reverted them for no reason whatsoever. That were a perfectly acceptable compromise, and you carried on reverting.

172.188.91.22 21:09, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

The concensus is in the number of different editors - REGISTERED editors - who revert your changes daily. Malljaja, Bluewave, Derek R Bullamore etc - these people are not me, you know. You are the only person interested in describing Green as English, with no proof or verification. You say you have no problem describing him as British, yet every revert you perform removes this description!!! Leaving the article without Green's nationality is not an acceptable compromise.

Also, "London" does not need disambiguation. London is London. Only Americans describe London as "London, England" - an article with a British subject is to be written in British English, and no-one here says "London, England".

Also, you tell me right here and now where I have used "racist ideology" to make my case. Describing me as a racist on the "requests for page protection" page is extremely offensive, and you have no grounds for it. I would be grateful for a retraction and apology.

Why don't you register so people can take you more seriously? Bretonbanquet 21:18, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm clearly not the only person who reverts your edits which remove references to England. Mais Oui! appears to have done, there have been another 2 registered editors who have added the text for you to then remove it again, and there is another IP range. There ISN'T a consensus at all.

I started removing the British reference because you kept removing the England reference - as you well know. Many articles do not refer to nationality anyway, so it was an acceptable compromise. Your point regarding London, England is pov and is based on the idea that only UK readers use Wikipedia. You saw it acceptable to say London, UK with a British flag next to it. Double standards. Racist ideology? You used the term being born in a stable doesn't make you a horse. How is that not racist? You were implying that it is fine to refer to him as British, but not English due to his ethnicity.

172.188.91.22 21:31, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Mais Oui is the only registered user who seems to agree with you, not that he does very often, and you only have to look at his talk page to see how many registered users disagree with him. You keep referring to "me" like I am the only person who disagrees with you. The other IP range seems to edit at exactly the same time as you on occasion, I can't imagine why. This talk page clearly shows a concensus, since there is no-one but you who holds your opinion.

So removing the British refernce was some kind of retaliation? How constructive. Who was that an acceptable compromise to, besides you? Show me someone who agrees with you. My point regarding "London, England" may be my point of view, but the point regarding British English is Wikipedia policy on British subjects, like it or not. I left flags in while I thought flags were required. When I discovered that they were not encouraged in articles that didn't require them, I removed all flags, English and British.

Your point regarding racist "ideology" is laughable. That statement does not refer to racism in any way, as you well know. It simply means that someone born in a country is not necessarily a citizen of that country. Don't try to paint me as a racist, show me one thing I have written anywhere that implies that. You couldn't be more wrong. Not only that, how can I be racist towards someone of my own race? Think it through. Are you able to explain to me what makes someone English? If so, please do. And not simple place of birth, or else Cliff Richard is Indian. The fact is that you have zero evidence to support the idea that Green is English.

In addition, with regard to Mais Oui, I have been involved in discussion about his pro-Scottish edits, and similarly the discussion on the Eddie Irvine page - am I "racist" towards Scottish and Northern Irish people as well? Bretonbanquet 21:41, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Another point - on the Jeremy Spencer article, I left "England" in the birthplace because it may not be immediately obvious where County Durham is, particularly to non-British readers. I have absolutely no issue with that. But anyone who can read knows where London is, it's just not necessary to clarify it further, and I think it looks ridiculous. If there's a concensus of people here who disagree, then we'll change it.

Also the sentence which starts "Widely hailed as the greatest blues player ever to hail from Britain / England" probably shouldn't be there anyway, as it's not sourced, and sounds woolly. I'm for deleting that altogether - any thoughts? Bretonbanquet 22:15, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

With regard to "London, England", I have always understood that major cities don't need qualification unless the context is ambiguous. Surely it is usual to write of "New York, Paris and London", not "New York, United States of America, Paris, France, and London, England". The latter looks clumsy and unnecessary. Is it only in Britain that this convention is adopted? In this article, the British context is established immediately, so it certainly seems unnecessary to emphasise that we are talking about the London in England. The discussion about racism has passed me by - no idea what that's about, but I hope that it's not being suggested that calling someone "British" is racist. I think it is just a factual description of nationality and does not say anything about a person's racial origins. I've never seen Peter Green's passport, but it is highly likely that in the "Nationality" section it says "British". Also I don't understand any implied racism in the Wellington quote about horses - I always thought he was referring to Jesus! Bluewave 07:39, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Does anyone know if there is any truth tot the story that Green was found living rough in Hyde Park and that his fingernails were all about four inches in length?

I would just like to simply point out that English is not a race, so why don't we put this one to rest on both sides.Jbrw21 00:25, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

The line "Widely hailed as the greatest blues player ever to hail from Britain" was changed to "Widely hailed as one of the greatest blues players ever to hail from Britain". This change is cheapening Peter Green's legacy. The original sentence was quite accurate, as many people do believe he was the greatest blues player ever to come out of Britain, but the new sentence sounds like its limiting his scope and ability. I would say either remove the reference to Britain in the second sentence, or revert it back to the original.

Typo correction

{{Editprotected}} The second paragraph under "John Mayall's Bluesbreakers" in the Biography section has a typo. The sentence 'If featured two compositions by Green, "The Same Way" and "The Supernatural".' should begin with 'It'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Robert Ham (talk • contribs) 02:28, May 13, 2007 (UTC)

Y Done Harryboyles 00:20, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

What about Green Manalishi?

I'm surprised there is no mention of "Green Manalishi", which I found while researching Judas Priest and listening to some Amazon clips of Peter Green's music. Some people suggest "Green Manalishi" was written during Peter's troubling times. Regardless, I think this song was a very good one and worth mentioning.

Hopefully the disputes involving the Wikipedia page will be resolved soon. I'd like to think we're all doing this for the common good.

I'd vote to mention Green Manalishi - my favourite Peter Green track out of many, and certainly one of his best - AG, Stockport, UK.

The name "Fleetwood Mac"

The name of Green's new band was Fleetwood Mac. Originally billed as "Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac"; it originated from the band's rhythm section that consisted of Mick Fleetwood and John McVie.

While the name Fleetwood Mac does come from Fleetwood and McVie it is not because these two were the rythm section of the band when it was formed. The founding basist was Bob Brunning although Peter Green had tried to recruit John McVie and apparently still hoped that he would join. The name was originally of an instrumental recorded by the members of John Mayall's Bluesbreakers without John Mayall. Peter Green liked the name and thopught that it would make a good name for a band.

Also the band was actually billed as "Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac featuring Jeremy Spencer" so that all members had a mention.

The instrumental "Fleetwood Mac" was recorded by Green, Fleetwood and McVie on 19/4/67, and Green named it after Fleetwood and McVie. It was this session that inspired Green to form a band with that rhythm section, and that name. When McVie didn't want to join, Brunning joined just as a temporary measure. Bretonbanquet 23:41, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Where is he now

So where is Peter Green now ?

The last I heard he had moved to Sweden in 2004 - actually I believe the present article's wording does point this out. Apart from that - who knows ?!

Derek R Bullamore 20:50, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Hi I just wanted to add something here, Peter decided to name his new band "Fleetwood Mac", after that instrumental he recorded in the studio not long ago, he did not name the band after Mick Fleetwood, it just so happens that Mick has the same last name.

removed 38th place

38th in the 100 greatest guitarists list which is, and has always been, POV; adding 'according to Rolling Stone' does not change it. The article about the list has been deleted and the link now leads to a vague mention. There are improvements in wikipedia, really. al 09:51, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Cozy Powell

Perhaps someone can dig up a reference to Cozy Powell's role other than drummer in the founding of the Splinter Group. Green's relationship with Nigel Watson is well documented, because of Watson's sister and the Clifford Davis connection. All that I can find about the Powell connection is a leading question by an interviewer that Green didn't answer: http://www.terrascope.co.uk/MyBackPages/Peter%20Green%20interview.htm

PT: Is this a long-term band?

PG: Yeah, unless something kind of tragic happens. I don’t know Spike [keyboard player] very well at all. I know Nigel. I don’t know Cozy (Powell, drums) or Neil (bass) but they seem like they’re encouraging. Can’t understand why.

PT: Cozy Powell has been particularly supportive and has helped get things together for you?

PG: I saw Cozy at the Brian May concert at Wembley. He did a big drum solo. All his drums. Different music to us, he only uses a few bits with us. The bare necessities, which is all you need for a blues band. If you had a lot of drums you’d be wasting your time really. That’s quite interesting. He can be very impressive with something when you’re not expecting it. And Neil, too, can come out with something. Some things he does on the bass are lovely.

Vytal 03:49, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

It was a BBC documentary from 96, in which Powell, Watson and Green got in the studio and recorded a version of "Walk Don't Run". Powell was practically running the show, trying to get Peter into a position where the session could be run in a sensible and productive way. I'll try and get more of a reference as soon as I can. Bretonbanquet 10:45, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

"Excellent!" -C.Montgomery Burns

Vytal 04:51, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

The Munich accident

Rainer Langhans, former member of a well known German commune, mentions in an article and in his autobiography (February 2008) that he and his former girl-friend Uschi Obermaier met Peter Green in Munich, where they invited him to their (then well known) "High-Fish-Commune".

Langhans and Obermaier were not really interested in Peter Green. They just wanted to get in contact with Mick Taylor.

Langhans and Obermaier wished to organize a "Bavarian Woodstock". They wanted Jimi Hendrix and "The Rolling Stones" to be the leading acts of their Bavarian open air festival. They needed the "Green God" just to get in contact with "The Rolling Stones" via Mick Taylor.

Read more about it, in the "Rolling Stone"-Forum (in German): Greens Trauma-Nacht mit deutschen Kommunarden 1970.

By the way: Rainer Langhans' girl-friend Christa Ritter tells she's gonna make a movie about Peter Green's Munich accident: Peter Green’s (Ex-Fleetwood Mac) Trauma-Nacht mit deutschen Kommunarden 1970. --Popmuseum (talk) 08:06, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Out of Phase Pickup

There have been repeated modifications to the section referring to his out of phase pickup, or rather the reference in the first section. There is plenty of documentation and proof that the pickup is magnetically out of phase. Even today it has been examined and this has proven the case.

This recent amendment is out, the pickup had shielded wire which makes it difficult to wire out of phase without atmospheric interference: TonyMillerLive (Talk | contribs) m (9,669 bytes) (Reversing the pickup magnet would not create the sound. Reversing the electrical connections would) (undo) In fact I can confim that this modification does work as will countless references to forums and studies across the internet and in published literature. I will concede that a reverse wound pickup would produce the same effect; remember the humbucker contains two coils that are already out of phase with each other in series but this effect deals with two pairs of coils i.e. two for the neck and two for the bridge. Given that each pickup has a north polarised coil (rather the slugs/screws) and a south coil it is very possible to reverse the polarity by flipping the magnet underneath them.

Here are some references but I do not intend editing this again until this can be resolved in the discussion area. In fact I would be happy to settle for saying the pickup was out of phase and leave the details out. [1] [2] [3] [4] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.120.161.6 (talk) 16:36, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

(Edited my own comment, missed out on detail...no longer required as it doesn't make sense) 78.16.117.249 (talk) 20:25, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Controversial statements

Claims regarding mental illness ALL need citing and so does the "living like a tramp" bit. Tom Green (talk) 18:30, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Already partially cited, but it's very common knowledge and laid out in the biographies, notably the Celmins book. It seems a little superfluous to just cite every other sentence. Bretonbanquet (talk) 18:33, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

It is not acceptable to say that it's commonly known or stated elsewhere. If you're going to say someone lived as a tramp and effectively lost his mind, then yes, each of those statements does require a citation. Tom Green (talk) 21:02, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Well if you actually looked, you'd see that they already do. Bretonbanquet (talk) 22:13, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

==Record Labels==: No mention is made of the fact that the Fleetwood Mac recordings were produced by the same producer that John Mayall used - Mike Vernon. He had his own label, Blue Horizon, which also produced other bands of the era such as Chicken Shack. Mike Vernon also ran a blues club out of an upstairs room in a pub in York Road, Battersea during the 1968/9 period, and I was fortunate enough to see Fleetwood Mac perform there several times.